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Giant Bomb are bringing back the Endurance Run... and it's Shenmue.

They've missed a bunch of optional items in Ryo's room and in the main house by not exploring, they've not bought tapes from the Tomato Mart and played the raffle there, they haven't played the slots, they've kinda fucked around with the combat but a bit of practice wouldn't hurt, they haven't tried feeding the cat, they haven't checked out the candy store, etc. They've also missed a couple optional event scenes, like the chance to learn a move from Yamagashi-san (blue walls house guy).

Admittedly they'll be doing this to kill time between plot points, but there's more than just running up and down the street.

I think part of their frustration is that they think they've found Charlie in the arcade, but they actually haven't and think the game is just being awkward with them.
The game does an awful job of telling you about any of that.

They 'played' slots btw. It was a slot machine in a video game. Even worse than actual already terrible slots.

I don't think they are 'frustrated' just that they are reacting to a severely awkward and antiquated game that had a novelty to it at the time because it was ahead of its time but all of that has aged terribly. Every mechanic here has evolved by leaps and bounds.

I'm finding zero emotional investment in the storytelling because of how weird and terrible the characters are. People can put up with a lot if they cared about where the plot was going but Shenmue makes it extremely hard to do that.
 

Ketch

Member
This isn't gameplay. It's nothing. It's pressing 'A' to view a slow, boring, poorly acted, poorly shot, glacially paced cut scene. This game is literally running up and down the street and getting shitty cut scenes to lead you to the next shitty cut scene for hours on end.

In every other game, the actual game part isn't the "pressing A to view cutscene and trigger then next possible cutscene availability", it's what you do in between them to get there. It's the action in between, the traversal in between, the puzzles in between.

Here you have a game that eschews the actual interesting things you do between the cutscenes, all while having terrible cutscenes as a reward.

Why the hostility? He's not even making claims about the games quality, just that there's more mini side things there.

For my part, I played it when it came out and remember enjoying it. I think it was ahead of its time, but hasn't really aged well. So many open world games/ pseudo adventure games have come and gone and really expanded and improved concepts that are clearly at a very early stage in shenmue.
 

N.A

Banned
It's worth pointing out that every lead they have followed so far is essentially pointless and the actual real leads only begin the day after you find Charlie.

I'm enjoying the videos even as a massive Shenmue fan. But the game is at it's best when you can immerse yourself it's world. This was a lot easier to do when the game was first released and the graphics were mindblowing and when you don't have to be entertaining on a video.

The game certainly picks up the pace soon and the story becomes much more interesting but Shenmue 2 has aged much better. It has a far better story and pacing. It gives you far more options for finding things. There are also a lot more side activities and it adds mechanics like a wait function for when you need to advance time. I do hope they play it at some point.

People should remember this game came out in 1999.
 

Phu

Banned
Because the bikers have tattoos. They falsely identified one of them as Charlie because of that, so I dunno why they didn't think to go talk to them about it. They'll probably get directed to them tomorrow if they ask certain NPCs (dude at the motorcycle shop is one, IDK about others off the top of my head).

Yeah, they went to that guy because he had sunglasses, a leather jacket, tattoo, etc., just like Charlie, but the dialogue didn't change from when they were just standing on the side of the road. If there wasn't new dialogue because he was a dude who matched Charlie's description, what reason would they have to believe there would be new dialogue because he has a tattoo?
 
Not to play devil's advocate, but this is a game that very much goes out of its way not to tell you stuff so you'll explore for yourself, which I think is part of the charm.
That's fair and it does feel like an evolved adventure game but when so much stuff is nothing, repetitive or gated early on it can kill a lot of desire to discover any of that. A lot of what they could potentially discover seems to have very little payoff compared to how it likely felt in 2000.

You also have to fight the awkward controls to get to that stuff too which doesn't help.

I have a poor memory overall of a lot of stuff I played but I remember Shenmue II felt like a huge step up and more interesting. I also thought it looked much better than this blurry mess. Is that close to reality? Was Shenmue II a step up in any ways even if it was mostly developed at the same time as the original?
 

N.A

Banned
That's fair and it does feel like an evolved adventure game but when so much stuff is nothing, repetitive or gated early on it can kill a lot of desire to discover any of that. A lot of what they could potentially discover seems to have very little payoff compared to how it likely felt in 2000.

You also have to fight the awkward controls to get to that stuff too which doesn't help.

I have a poor memory overall of a lot of stuff I played but I remember Shenmue II felt like a huge step up and more interesting. I also thought it looked much better than this blurry mess. Is that close to reality? Was Shenmue II a step up in any ways even if it was mostly developed at the same time as the original?

Their capture gear and whatever output they are using are awful. I recently replayed this using VGA and it looked great.
 
How were they supposed to know that?

The bikers go to the arcade every night. They are the only npcs you can regularly talk to who have tats. Logic dictates that if you need to find a tattoo parlor talk to rogues and gangsters. This part of the game allows for multiple paths. You can talk to the gangsters and have them required you join their gang or maybe talk to the Yakuza at Nagai Industries. Or some other path. As said above, Shenmue games are ultimately adventure games. In Monkey Island if you need a swordsman you go talk to a swordsman. If you need to find a ship you go to a place that sells ships. Similarly, in Shenmue if you're looking for sailors you don't keep asking about them. You go to the place where sailors are stereotypically said to go: bars. When the game says to find a tattoo parlor, it makes sense to try to find people with tattoos. Common sense stuff. Shenmue does not hold your hand. GB have merely shown a lack of basic logic skills.
 

Phu

Banned
The bikers go to the arcade every night. They are the only npcs you can regularly talk to who have tats. Logic dictates that if you need to find a tattoo parlor talk to rogues and gangsters. This part of the game allows for multiple paths. You can talk to the gangsters and have them required you join their gang or maybe talk to the Yakuza at Nagai Industries. Or some other path. As said above, Shenmue games are ultimately adventure games. In Monkey Island if you need a swordsman you go talk to a swordsman. If you need to find a ship you go to a place that sells ships. Similarly, in Shenmue if you're looking for sailors you don't keep asking about them. You go to the place where sailors are stereotypically said to go: bars. When the game says to find a tattoo parlor, it makes sense to try to find people with tattoos. Common sense stuff. Shenmue does not hold your hand. GB have merely shown a lack of basic logic skills.

As I stated before, when looking for Charlie they went to a person that matched his description, but it wasn't him and there was no new dialogue. If that didn't trigger anything, why should they believe there would be new dialogue for the parlor? In fact, that guy said the same thing in the arcade as when he was on the street. What reason do they have to believe he isn't like any of the other NPCs that say 'I don't have time, come back later/ask someone else'? So far, their encounters with that guy have just been him trying to pick fights without even allowing Ryo to ask his questions.
 

Spaghetti

Member
This isn't gameplay. It's nothing. It's pressing 'A' to view a slow, boring, poorly acted, poorly shot, glacially paced cut scene. This game is literally running up and down the street and getting shitty cut scenes to lead you to the next shitty cut scene for hours on end.

In every other game, the actual game part isn't the "pressing A to view cutscene and trigger then next possible cutscene availability", it's what you do in between them to get there. It's the action in between, the traversal in between, the puzzles in between.

Here you have a game that eschews the actual interesting things you do between the cutscenes, all while having terrible cutscenes as a reward.
"Isn't gameplay" is the laziest fucking retort. I was giving examples of ways to fill the free time they spent running up and down the street, all of which are valid ways to spend that free time instead of just camping outside the next story location. The only one that involves a cutscene is learning the move, and involves more than just "pressing the A button".

I mean every time they talked to those dudes they just told them to fuck off, it makes no sense that it would work now
But they know that NPCs will have different things to say depending on where they are in the story, the game has already established that logic. If they already falsely identified the biker as Charlie for having a tattoo, why wouldn't they think about talking to the biker?

It's not really a big deal, as they'll likely be directed to them through another NPC next episode, but it's entirely possible to skip that step and doesn't require intimate knowledge of the game to figure that out.

The game does an awful job of telling you about any of that.

They 'played' slots btw. It was a slot machine in a video game. Even worse than actual already terrible slots.

I don't think they are 'frustrated' just that they are reacting to a severely awkward and antiquated game that had a novelty to it at the time because it was ahead of its time but all of that has aged terribly. Every mechanic here has evolved by leaps and bounds.

I'm finding zero emotional investment in the storytelling because of how weird and terrible the characters are. People can put up with a lot if they cared about where the plot was going but Shenmue makes it extremely hard to do that.
The game isn't supposed to tell you any of that, that's the point! You're meant to go find it out for yourself, the game was sold on exploration in an unprecedentedly detailed environment. They are getting frustrated, and the reason for that is that they're fighting the tide of the game's pace. If they ever just kind of let up and embrace filling that time and exploring a bit more, then it'll be a smoother play-through.

And no, they didn't play slots. They walked up to the machine, and left. There's nothing much to win from the slots besides an item, but it's at least worth a try to kill time.

Yeah, they went to that guy because he had sunglasses, a leather jacket, tattoo, etc., just like Charlie, but the dialogue didn't change from when they were just standing on the side of the road. If there wasn't new dialogue because he was a dude who matched Charlie's description, what reason would they have to believe there would be new dialogue because he has a tattoo?
Again, because he has tattoos, which is how they wrongly identified him as Charlie, and are now looking for a tattoo parlour.

Not to play devil's advocate, but this is a game that very much goes out of its way not to tell you stuff so you'll explore for yourself, which I think is part of the charm.
Finally, a voice of reason.

Look, I'm enjoying the endurance run a lot, but you can't put the game at fault for them killing time running up and down the same street when there are options to fill that time. The game does best when you just submit to the fact you'll need to kill time, and find an activity that does it for you.

For example: now that Vinny knows you can win mini items of the arcade machines, why doesn't he try winning all of them?
 
It's been interesting going from watching the ER and finally getting a sense of what Shenmue even is to popping into that 'whats the most money you've given to a kickstarter' thread and seeing people mention they dropped hundreds on Shenmue 3.

I...I don't get it.
I don't think you're getting a real sense of what Shenmue is yet from the ER. To be frank, the progress made over multiple hours they spent so far can be accomplished in less than 2, and by then you'd be involved in actual Virtua Fighter style fights, only with multiple people. They are missing out on a ton of the side stuff and being (naturally) distracted by the entertaining conversation that is unfolding among themselves.
 

Parham

Banned
Watching the Endurance Run, I'm reminded of how much I dislike the game. The initial novelty of the side activities eventually gives way to boredom. I don't have a problem will killing time before certain objectives open up in theory, but none of the activities ever succeeded in pulling me in.
 
As I stated before, when looking for Charlie they went to a person that matched his description, but it wasn't him and there was no new dialogue. If that didn't trigger anything, why should they believe there would be new dialogue for the parlor? In fact, that guy said the same thing in the arcade as when he was on the street. What reason do they have to believe he isn't like any of the other NPCs that say 'I don't have time, come back later/ask someone else'? So far, their encounters with that guy have just been him trying to pick fights without even allowing Ryo to ask his questions.

Because they're not Charlie. Why should they talk to you about Charlie? They don't even know who the fuck you are and no gangster is going to give up a buddy some jiu jitsu dojo owning spoiled snot nosed punk.

In old games, dialogue is limited. One must also make mental notes.

These games do not hold your hand like a baby. In Monkey Island, you go to a ship shop. You can't buy one of course, because you don't have the money nor the need to buy a ship. But you make a mental note (hey this guy sells ships, maybe he's useful later). When it's time to buy a ship though, that area is now not pointless. It's now a functional purpose for progression. The gangsters have nothing to do with Charlie. They do have something to do with tattoos. The gangsters act as a false flag to make you think you solved the puzzle when searching for Charlie's whereabouts when the motorcycle mechanic is a far better clue giver. So you're in the ball park, but still a bit cold.

In old games, npcs are mostly useful when the story requires them.

All this is due to your own personal set of expectations. You think that because the bikers have tats and look like gangsters that they know who Charlie is. The mechanic says dead on that Charlie is a poser and not a real biker. Those two guys are real bikers and hang out at the motorcycle shop daily. The common link between them isn't motorcycles but tattoos. Setting aside expectations, Shenmue is a great game. If you go in with your own ideas of how the game is supposed to be...better to stick to something else.

Right now all you're telling me is you picked up Ocarina of Time. You go to the horse range and see Epona. You ride her. I WANT EPONA. SHE'S ON THE BOX. SHE'S IN THE INTRO. I'M SUPPOSED TO GET EPONA RIGHT? You have made up the game with your own personal expectations and refuse to wait. You can't get Epona as a child, but - again, mental notes - you can as an adult. HOW DO I GET INSIDE JABU JABU? HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW TO LEAVE A FISH? Judging games like this, which didn't tell you what to do, to today's standards is stupid.

For what it's worth Shenmue III will have a dialogue box like in disc 4 of Shenmue II. So there's that and should help streamline this puzzle solving for most of you.
 

Spaghetti

Member
I don't think you're getting a real sense of what Shenmue is yet from the ER. To be frank, the progress made over multiple hours they spent so far can be accomplished in less than 2, and by then you'd be involved in actual Virtua Fighter style fights, only with multiple people. They are missing out on a ton of the side stuff and being (naturally) distracted by the entertaining conversation that is unfolding among themselves.
Basically.

You can meet Charlie on the third in-game day, and that's not even "speed running".

By that point the game picks itself up and you
receive the letter
seen being hidden in the opening cutscene.
 
When and what episode is the fire boy segment everyone is laughing about? I watched this while falling asleep last night and I think I missed it.
 
If you're watching an ER expecting a speed run you are doing it wrong and will be disappointed.

No one is expecting this. Just explaining they aren't far into the game and have witnessed very little of what the game has to offer so asking "What is the appeal?" based off of this ER isn't really fair.
 

Spaghetti

Member
If you're watching an ER expecting a speed run you are doing it wrong and will be disappointed.
Nobody is expecting a speedrun. It's just the game isn't actually as glacially paced as it appears to be in the endurance run, there's a combination of over and under thinking going on that is making the process of reaching the next story point more confusing than it needs to be.
 
how many WHY DO PEOPLE LIKE SHENMUE?!?!!?!?! posts is this ER going to spawn because jesus

Inflated ego's? I dunno, I guess some people feel that unless a game caters to their tastes then it shouldn't exist, and people who do like these games had better have a good fucking justification for doing so. Screw just being content (or god forbid, happy) that other people like the game, unless it's for me it's shit. I'm not trying to sound holier than thou or anything, but fuck, I don't get MOBAs, at all, and that's OKAY.
 

Sakwoff

Member
People should remember this game came out in 1999.

Yeah... I mean...

That's kinda two years after The Last Express. For example. Just to pick an adventure game that was also experimenting with real time and is a masterfully told murder mystery to boot. (Which is kinda selling its narrative way short, but eh...)

It's not like 1999 was the stone age of video games. It's rather the bookend of a whole decade of adventure games. Pretty much the heyday of that genre.
 
At the end of the day, GBeast are not playing the game in a critical capacity and are playing it for the entertainment of others and it's been pretty well received by the majority so far.

It's not a deep expose on the pros and cons of Shenmue.

Let's all relax a little bit. If the video series isn't for you, it isn't for you.

Also no-one is trying to rationalise that Shenmue is an objectively good game, some people just like it and that's OK too.
 
At the end of the day, GBeast are not playing the game in a critical capacity and are playing it for the entertainment of others and it's been pretty well received by the majority so far.

It's not a deep expose on the pros and cons of Shenmue.

Let's all relax a little bit. If the video series isn't for you, it isn't for you.

Ah yes. The entertainment argument. But they can't be assed to press every button on the controller to see what they do. Very entertaining! Let's do a ER of Super Mario Bros without the run button. How dew I press b
 
Ah yes. The entertainment argument. But they can't be assed to press every button on the controller to see what they do. Very entertaining! Let's do a ER of Super Mario Bros without the run button. How dew I press b

It's entertaining for some, clearly.

Just like waiting for a computer generated Timex watch to spin round is for others.
 

Teeth

Member
"Isn't gameplay" is the laziest fucking retort. I was giving examples of ways to fill the free time they spent running up and down the street, all of which are valid ways to spend that free time instead of just camping outside the next story location. The only one that involves a cutscene is learning the move, and involves more than just "pressing the A button".

I could be wrong, but let's go over this:
- They've missed a bunch of optional items in Ryo's room and in the main house by not exploring
--> Do these optional items add anything to the game? Do they open up new gameplay verbs? Do they instigate anything that involves learning, doing, growing, overcoming an obstacle, or testing dexterity? Or do they involve looking at something?


- they've not bought tapes from the Tomato Mart
--> Does this involve anything other than having a new tune to listen to? Or does it just lead to a new conversation that is poorly acted?

-and played the raffle there
--> Does this involve anything other than pressing a single button and then randomly winning money?


- they haven't played the slots
--> Does this involve anything other than clicking a button to lose money with a randomized chance to win more money?


-they've kinda fucked around with the combat but a bit of practice wouldn't hurt
--> This is real gameplay


- they haven't tried feeding the cat
--> Does this resolve with anything other than pressing A in a menu to see a different cutscene with the cat?


- they haven't checked out the candy store
--> Does this involve anything more than seeing a poorly acted conversation or looking at items by tapping a button then looking?


-They've also missed a couple optional event scenes
--> Are these anything other than cutscenes and/or QTEs?

-like the chance to learn a move from Yamagashi-san (blue walls house guy).
--> I'm assuming you mean learn a new combat move, which is nice (as it leads to new verbs, expansion of player agency in fights, and overall variability), but does getting it involve anything other than watching a cutscene?
 

Spaghetti

Member
You do realize you've played it before and they haven't right?
Like, on my first playthrough as an eight year old I was making better time than GBEast are right now.

I think a degree of solitude is needed to figure out Shenmue's "puzzles" (this youtuber managed it, for example), and the endurance run chatter is cutting that off at the knees. It's entertaining, but again, my point is that the run is showing Shenmue as a slower game than is actually is.
 
If you're watching an ER expecting a speed run you are doing it wrong and will be disappointed.
You think what I described is speed-running? I'm talking about the first time I played when I was a kid. On my first session with the game I made it to the point where I was looking for the tattoo parlor. Must have been 2 hrs or so before I had to go to bed. Conversely, I also spent the first whole day (in-game) without leaving Ryo's house / dojo area.
 

Parham

Banned
I could be wrong, but let's go over this:

For what it's worth, I think all of these define the core experience of Shenmue and feed into the game's focus on time, exploration, and mood. It shares more with Gone Home or Firewatch than Sleeping Dogs. Having said that, I think what the game does offer isn't particularly interesting or fun.
 
Like, on my first playthrough as an eight year old I was making better time than GBEast are right now.

I think a degree of solitude is needed to figure out Shenmue's "puzzles" (this youtuber managed it, for example), and the endurance run chatter is cutting that off at the knees. It's entertaining, but again, my point is that the run is showing Shenmue as a slower game than is actually is.
Was 8-year old you making an entertainment series for thousands of people? You seem to not understand that this isn't a professional play through of this game. It's three people playing this game how they would for an audience of people.

Why do we have to go through this song and dance with every piece of Giant Bomb content? Why do people need games they enjoyed already to be played perfectly by other people? That's not why I personally have come to this site since its inception and it's probably a big reason why they are still around.
 

Goron2000

best junior ever
Like, on my first playthrough as an eight year old I was making better time than GBEast are right now.

I think a degree of solitude is needed to figure out Shenmue's "puzzles" (this youtuber managed it, for example), and the endurance run chatter is cutting that off at the knees. It's entertaining, but again, my point is that the run is showing Shenmue as a slower game than is actually is.

That video is edited, i'm not sure what you're trying to prove with that. If Shenmue was a better game then it wouldn't need defending, it's an interesting concept but the execution is poor and you can't make people see it the way you did as a kid when it came out.
 
They did feed the cat btw, it was in the first or second episode. Totally changed the entire experience obviously.

The cat keeps existing and still needs to eat food every day, as cats tend to do.

(It ends up opening more cutscenes with Ryo's sorta-girlfriend)
 

Phu

Banned
Again, because he has tattoos, which is how they wrongly identified him as Charlie, and are now looking for a tattoo parlour.

Yet when they were looking for a guy with a leather jacket, sunglasses, and a tattoo and they found a guy with a leather jacket, sunglasses, and a tattoo they got jack diddly for it. On top of that, he's a guy who aggressively tells Ryo to leave, which is several steps further from being helpful than other NPCs who just say they are busy or some other excuse. Additionally, he had zero change in dialogue when they were looking for info on Charlie, a character who supposedly looks like him. I also don't see why him having tattoos is supposed to act as some big clue when the dude they learned about tattoo parlors from had a tattoo himself. Why is the one tattooed man supposed to be the fountain of knowledge for this and not the other tattooed man? They are both assholes with tattoos.
 

Goron2000

best junior ever

This thread is full of people like yourself pointing out all of these things that they "missed" and how they're not experiencing the true Shenmue. I know what the true Shenmue experience is and they're not missing out on anything that would improve the criticisms they have. Shenmue is a living breathing world but it's all an empty illusion for one long linear fetch quest.
 
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