Yup, that's why I think the stuff I've heard from some journalists in the past week is really stupid.
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Giant Bomb Thread 2: A thread on a popular internet message board
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Yup, that's why I think the stuff I've heard from some journalists in the past week is really stupid.
Felix Lighter
Member
I guess I'm not quite clear what conversation the guy is trying to reference. The only 2 I can think of where the Tomb Raider discussion and the cheering for violence discussion during the press conferences.
The problem Jeff seemed to have with Tomb Raider was not necessarily the violence. He seemed to have a problem with the fact that the developer is apparently trying to trigger some base male response to want to protect a helpless woman.
The problem they seemed to have with the cheering during the press conference was the fact that over the top violence seemed to be what really excited the crowd, which is a little disturbing.
If they had another discussion about no longer wanting to play games with violence or overt sexuality, I might have missed it.
The problem Jeff seemed to have with Tomb Raider was not necessarily the violence. He seemed to have a problem with the fact that the developer is apparently trying to trigger some base male response to want to protect a helpless woman.
The problem they seemed to have with the cheering during the press conference was the fact that over the top violence seemed to be what really excited the crowd, which is a little disturbing.
If they had another discussion about no longer wanting to play games with violence or overt sexuality, I might have missed it.
Ventilaator
Banned
Tomb Raider + Hitman nun trailer, I'm guessing.
I'm honestly surprised people are starting to have such a negative reaction to the Tomb Raider game now.
I thought it looked extremely creepy/rapey and emotionally manipulative when it was revealed last year, and a lot people seemed to share that viewpoint. Why does it now suddenly stick in people's craw?
I thought it looked extremely creepy/rapey and emotionally manipulative when it was revealed last year, and a lot people seemed to share that viewpoint. Why does it now suddenly stick in people's craw?
And Lollipop Chainsaw, I figured. Bust mostly the Tomb Raider discussion.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
Generally gaming coverage people will give a game the benefit of the doubt in previews. Now that the game is closer to release and the devs are saying stupid shit, it's harder to give it a pass.
It's mostly from what the Executive Producer said from two recent interviews, rather than the game's content alone. In the Bombcast, the entire discussion revolved around what people said or how they reacted (Rubin, TR PR, GoW/TLoU crowd), and the GB crew just gave their views on that.
So, it's all kinds of stupid to go "herp derp so you guyz no like action movies, Dr. Dre, & Mortal Kombat no more? lololol".
John Rabbit
Banned
so you don't see a conflict of interest when somebody denounces a game depicting overt violence on a woman and enjoying gangsta rap with lyrics describing violence against women?
i'm not saying it's inappropriate for jeff to like dre and hate tomb raider, but it does smack a little of hypocrisy. the dude fucked up by asking his question like an asshole, so jeff has every right to be dismissive; but he [question asker] does have a point.
There's a difference between a reaction of "holy shit! He just tore his brain out! That's brutal. Cool". and "WHOO YEAH! FUCK YEAH CUT THAT BRAIN IN HALF WHOOO!"
But the women in Mortal Kombat are bad ass. They can beat the SHIT out of any other fighter and don't take shit from anyone. They are strong women just made to look sexy. The comments about Lara Croft were basically trying saying because she's a weak girl you'll want to act the man and protect her. It adds emphasis as to the issues with the gaming culture. There are plenty of women into rap or metal or models that show off the cars at F1 events or other sporting events but there isn't that immature "girls are weak, get back in the kitchen" shit that infects gaming.
The problem seems to be that most games that try it end up being as subtle as an afterschool special.
I have no problems with a game discussing a intricate or delicate subject, but if you can't do it well, then do not bother.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
You know it's possible to enjoy the medium while not entirely endorsing its ideals right?
Also that it is entirely possible that they are bringing up these issues now because they are a hot topic now? To add to the discussion? What is wrong with that exactly? Just because they didn't express their views before means that they don't have those views before this moment?
Also that it is entirely possible that they are bringing up these issues now because they are a hot topic now? To add to the discussion? What is wrong with that exactly? Just because they didn't express their views before means that they don't have those views before this moment?
When it comes to the games themselves, yeah.
EmCeeGramr
Member
You know it is kind of funny that if you look back in Jeff's Formspring a little bit, there's a question just prior to E3:
...and I remember being a bit pissed off about that. (i will give Jeff the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some Poe's Law going on in his answer)
...and I remember being a bit pissed off about that. (i will give Jeff the benefit of the doubt and assume there's some Poe's Law going on in his answer)
shadyspace
Banned
Patrick answered that same question with:
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Was that before the developer's "you will want to protect her" comments, the rape scene revelation, etc. etc.?
Context is needed here.
EmCeeGramr
Member
"Prior to E3" would mean yes, duh. Obviously the context changed when people's worst suspicions were sadly reinforced, but even before that there were warning signs.
megamerican
Member
Even though I don't necessarily disagree with their viewpoints, whinging about all of this stuff just doesn't feel like GB to me.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Well I can't actually remember when it happened.
I dunno, I felt the signs weren't that prominent, but I didn't follow tomb raider all that much other than the initial showing, where most of the concerns were of how much of a game it was.
Riposte
Member
Tomb Raider isn't the "Rape: The Game" people are painting it to be. I suspect by the time it releases this outrage will be greatly diminished. (I can already hear the bombcast chat in my head, a brief "oh, it turned not to be like that") That's assuming people like it enough to care about the mechanics.
I wonder if Jeff has not played games out of moral obligation in the past.
I wonder if Jeff has not played games out of moral obligation in the past.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Because the developer came out and basically said that was what they were doing. And used the word "rape" as well.
I don't think Dre or any rapper is trying to even suggest that their lyrics are supposed to help you identify with women though. That's not to say they aren't problematic, but it's problematic in a different way.
Ventilaator
Banned
I find the entire conversation about Tomb Raider to be absolutely pathetic.
It's pretty safe to assume that Lara Croft, the completely average teenage girl had to have seen some shit to turn into Lara Croft, the completely fearless badass. If you are gonna tell that story, that is exactly how you tell that story. What the hell do the whiners want that game to be? Lara goes on an island, jumps around in a forest and is suddenly an action star?
The developer who said that you want to protect her might have been a disgusting horrible sexist, but maybe he just meant that they are trying to make her very human and sympathetic, so you'd feel for her in the completely messed up situation she is in and you actually feel awful when you jump on a trap in the forest just to see the animation. People hating on the developer for saying that girls are weak and helpless are the only ones who ever actually said that.
Also, the rape scene. A teenage girl is alone in the middle of a group of horrible scumbags. One of them trying something is exactly what would happen in that situation. If we have this dark and gritty game that's rated M for mature, why should it shy away from actually being any of those things?
It's pretty safe to assume that Lara Croft, the completely average teenage girl had to have seen some shit to turn into Lara Croft, the completely fearless badass. If you are gonna tell that story, that is exactly how you tell that story. What the hell do the whiners want that game to be? Lara goes on an island, jumps around in a forest and is suddenly an action star?
The developer who said that you want to protect her might have been a disgusting horrible sexist, but maybe he just meant that they are trying to make her very human and sympathetic, so you'd feel for her in the completely messed up situation she is in and you actually feel awful when you jump on a trap in the forest just to see the animation. People hating on the developer for saying that girls are weak and helpless are the only ones who ever actually said that.
Also, the rape scene. A teenage girl is alone in the middle of a group of horrible scumbags. One of them trying something is exactly what would happen in that situation. If we have this dark and gritty game that's rated M for mature, why should it shy away from actually being any of those things?
I'm pretty sure Jeff dropped out of school to play Mortal Kombat.
This'll be exactly like the Resident Evil 5 controversy, so by the time the actual game comes out it turns it was a lot of ado about nothing and no one will care. Then a couple of months later there will be PR of a new game to overreact to.
I think the formspring question to Jeff was also referring on their discussions on The Last of Us, God of War, and other "extra-violent" games at E3.
And on those I think the smarmy question-asker has a point. I think they did a good job explaining what's different about the Lollipop Chainsaw (marketing the sexiness of the character rather than the game itself), and even Tomb Raider (Lara isn't a person who is strong that you're in control of like other games, but someone you're helping to "protect," as men should women, or whatever).
But I do think it was weird hearing them bemoan the violence in games at E3. Pretty sure they let other games get away with, though God of War is the worst offender these days. I also am irritated whenever I hear someone say the reason people were excited for The Last of Us demo and applauded was because it was violent. It wasn't. It was because the idea that a game could be that intense, and shocking, and have that sort of tone is incredibly impressive and exciting.
I don't like ultra-violent games. It's why I hate Manhunt, Gears of War, God of War, and others. I can't play them. But in The Last of Us it's totally different, as violence isn't the goal or the reward, just a possibility in the hostile world Naughty Dog created.
And on those I think the smarmy question-asker has a point. I think they did a good job explaining what's different about the Lollipop Chainsaw (marketing the sexiness of the character rather than the game itself), and even Tomb Raider (Lara isn't a person who is strong that you're in control of like other games, but someone you're helping to "protect," as men should women, or whatever).
But I do think it was weird hearing them bemoan the violence in games at E3. Pretty sure they let other games get away with, though God of War is the worst offender these days. I also am irritated whenever I hear someone say the reason people were excited for The Last of Us demo and applauded was because it was violent. It wasn't. It was because the idea that a game could be that intense, and shocking, and have that sort of tone is incredibly impressive and exciting.
I don't like ultra-violent games. It's why I hate Manhunt, Gears of War, God of War, and others. I can't play them. But in The Last of Us it's totally different, as violence isn't the goal or the reward, just a possibility in the hostile world Naughty Dog created.
jediyoshi
Member
Are we reading different GB threads?
You basically nailed my entire stance on this issue. I don't understand the fervor at all, people are misinterpreting and twisting what the TR producer said to try to portray the game as sexist and cruel. Of course you'll want to protect Lara. You want to protect any characters you either play as, identify with, or enjoy in a video game. The discussion on the Bombcast was absolutely ridiculous.
The same people who moan about games not being taken seriously and wishing the medium would advance past head-shots and blood splatters are the first to whine about attempted sexual violence or anything outside their comfort zone. Part of having characters who are emotionally three dimensional comes with the fact that you may be made uncomfortable by the reality of their situations.
If you're offended by the game, that's fine, but I find the new Lara 100 times more empowering and interesting than a chick with huge tits flopping around and a thong on who is ripping somebody's eye out or floating around a fantasy land. This whole issue reeks of a bunch of people who want to sit around and feel good by patting each other on the back in agreement while being wholly hypocritical and not understanding what they're talking about.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
They weren't actually bemoaning the violence as far as I can recall, just the reactions, which I agree that they misinterpreted. Though not through hype, more through them inviting sony fans to cheer them on.
Also as far as I can recall the bombcast jeff's issue was more that he hates the idea that they're trying to be emotionally manipulative using the weaker sex angle.
Also as far as I can recall the bombcast jeff's issue was more that he hates the idea that they're trying to be emotionally manipulative using the weaker sex angle.
No, with a typical male character, you are usually intended to role play as that character. You aren't guiding Master Chief through his experience, you are Master Chief, or you are Solid Snake, or you are Tommy Vercetti.
But here, you are apparently not intended to be Lara Croft, you are her guiding angel, since she is weak and womanly and needs it. There is a difference.
I don't think Jeff ever said he has a problem with games having "violence against women," at least in the Tomb Raider example. He did seem to have a problem with the violence in general in The Last of Us and God of War, as did Brad and Patrick.
I expect by the time the game is released the scene in question will be removed, or rather changed to "oh no he's going to kill her!!!" from the start. Which is a total shame, really.
shadyspace
Banned
It was definitely weird. And like Jeff said, it's insulting to men as well. Like we're incapable of putting ourselves in the shoes of a female character so the guy tries to appeal to our protective instincts.
You "being" or "role playing" Lara Croft is inherently obvious, she's the main character that you control throughout the game. You're interpreting one man's tired comment during one of a hundred interviews he did at E3 to be a slam against women. You're hearing what you want to hear, whereas I'll take a stab here and guess the producer of Tomb Raider isn't a women hating, abusive monster who is using the game as a power fantasy, and instead legitimately wants you to feel emotionally attached to the character enough to care about protect her from danger.
Thank you sir, you managed to explained exactly what I've been trying to say with my poor english since last week lol.
I don't think I ever identified to a character in a game... When I played GTA4, I wasn't running arround thinking "Hey I'm Nico and I'm doing crazy shit yayyyyy"... I was running arround in Nico's world accompanying him through his story. Just like when I watch a movie, I'm not trying to put myself in the character's shoes, I want to witness somebody's story/life. That's why for me I have zero problem with what the producer said.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-06-16-saturday-soapbox-in-games-we-trust
I think this article on Eurogamer does a good job of summarizing why people are so angry about the TR stuff, specifically these extracts:
I think a lot of it boils down to player agency, and how such a scenario seems to engineered to occur whether you allow to or not. It's a game at its core, but it seems to boiling this characterization down to a passive experience, which I feel is disregarding that purpose. As mentioned, such tactics feel really underhand when you couple them with the other quotes.
It's not the subject matter that bothers me, rather the way in which they invoke it. As it stands, it comes across as tactless and manipulative.
I think this article on Eurogamer does a good job of summarizing why people are so angry about the TR stuff, specifically these extracts:
I think a lot of it boils down to player agency, and how such a scenario seems to engineered to occur whether you allow to or not. It's a game at its core, but it seems to boiling this characterization down to a passive experience, which I feel is disregarding that purpose. As mentioned, such tactics feel really underhand when you couple them with the other quotes.
It's not the subject matter that bothers me, rather the way in which they invoke it. As it stands, it comes across as tactless and manipulative.
I just have to highlight these two posts because I couldn't possibly agree with them more. You guys hit the nail on the head for me and phrased it much better than I ever could have.
Also, the Last of Us bit is insane to me. It seems that people are all up in arms because the guy said "No! don't!" before getting his head blown off. Seemingly forgetting the fact that he was choking Joel to death and would have killed him moments before? Isn't it a normal reaction to cheer for the "hero" to succeed?
Crystal Dynamics already told that story in Tomb Raider Legend, and they didn't have to market that game by showing her getting the shit beat out of her and moaning to do it.
The answer is in this thread.
I don't really care about the content itself, who knows without proper context. The way these big budget projects are marketed to us does feel like it's worth discussing, though.
Well, in all fairness, in UC3 young Drake is so helpless that if he's caught, it's game over.
Those parts suck.
Ventilaator
Banned
That's a weird comparison, because it all depends on the type of story you're telling. Someone could easily tell the story of kid Nathan having to kill to survive since he was like four years old, which explains why killing is so easy for him now. They don't do that because Uncharted is a lighthearted tale of adventure.
That doesn't mean that every story ever needs to be that. New Tomb Raider is not that.
jediyoshi
Member
If Lara was a dude, this wouldn't exactly be an issue for people to bat their eyes at.
EmCeeGramr
Member
jeff is streaming: http://www.twitch.tv/gbjg
shadyspace
Banned
This is a nightmare.
What a crazy stream.
Not to mention Indiana Jones gets beat up constantly and is kind of bumbling which is a big part of what makes him sympathetic.
The Tomb Raider thing is really interesting, everything Lara goes through in the footage we've seen so far really makes me feel uncomfortable in a way that it never would for a male character because I'm so desensitised to that kind of violence. For example in Uncharted 2 Drake is basically bleeding to death at one point and it barely affected me at all.
But I dont think the fact it makes me uncomfortable is a reason for it not to exist, games should push boundaries. As with all media that pushes boundaries, it is possible for it to go to far, but I think it's totally wrong to right this off as over the line already, before everything is seen in context of the rest of the game.
And yes, people working on the game shouldn't be coming out telling you that they are basically hurting the woman because they know it will get to you, but again, any kind of art/movie/tv show/book/radio play/opera/ballet is trying to manipulate you into feeling something, it's just never nice to realise you're being manipulated.
But I dont think the fact it makes me uncomfortable is a reason for it not to exist, games should push boundaries. As with all media that pushes boundaries, it is possible for it to go to far, but I think it's totally wrong to right this off as over the line already, before everything is seen in context of the rest of the game.
And yes, people working on the game shouldn't be coming out telling you that they are basically hurting the woman because they know it will get to you, but again, any kind of art/movie/tv show/book/radio play/opera/ballet is trying to manipulate you into feeling something, it's just never nice to realise you're being manipulated.
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