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[ZephyrFate]

Come on now, the scenes where he was getting tossed around by Karofsky and his douche crew was heart-wrenching. Also all his moments with his dad always made him likable. I think for a lot of gay viewers they get frustrated because the character obviously has shortcomings and doesn't represent every possible dynamic of a gay person, so his flaws become more glaring than someone like Rachel, who has some of the most painful-to-watch scenes in the whole show. She has funny moments but any remotely serious situation involving her and her constantly morphing face of emotions makes me wince.

But yeah, Quinn's character development has been a mess. She was handled very well in the first season, because it was a perfect arc from start to finish. And then the second season came around and she's going gaga over a guy because he has "Bieber Fever," then dumps him like an episode later because she still has feelings for a guy who made her life a living hell. And now she's obsessed with being prom queen again, and it just throws away whatever authenticity and likability she had in the first season down the drain. Seriously, what's her point anyway?

Except Kurt's interaction with Finn and how he handled it all was very petty, manipulative, and douchebaggy. There are times when it sucks to be him, but the majority of the flak he gets for being gay is totally because of his own foolish actions.

He's a flaming stereotype. But above that, he's a prick... to everyone. I don't even know why Blaine suddenly changed his mind and fell in love with him. He's an abrasive individual who makes no effort to befriend anyone on any level.

 

[gerg]

I'm not sure where I stand on Kurt. On the one hand, I can see why people think he's a horrible character. On the other hand, at least he has enough of a character (and one that seems consistent at that) to be called horrible! Where the other characters are rough drafts, Kurt is at least a finished painting. It's just unfortunate that he's realised as a Klee rather than a Gogh. /artnerd

I think the problem is that the show tries to do too much too quickly. The A.V. Club has it right when they suggest that the story about song-writing could have been made into a much larger arc that spanned a larger number of episodes. The same is true for the character developments - I don't think that there's anything inherently wrong with Quinn realising that she wants to be Prom Queen. Maybe something could be spun out of it how, even though she tries to stray away from it, she is fundamentally obsessed with being popular, and that being Prom Queen is her last chance at popularity before she leaves high school. I'm sure other directions can be taken with that story, too. The problem is that this just suddenly arises at the beginning of a single episode, without any proper foreshadowing or development beforehand.

 

[ZephyrFate]

A character can get a lot of screentime and still be horrible. He rarely ever does anything for anyone besides himself. He's easily the most selfish character Glee has. He's even worse than Rachel at times.

 

[BertramCooper]

I agree that Kurt is not a good person. Not at all, really. That said, I'm not the type of person who expects television characters to be role models.

It's when Ryan Murphy and others act like he's a role model that I get annoyed.

 

[gerg]

A character can get a lot of screentime and still be horrible. He rarely ever does anything for anyone besides himself. He's easily the most selfish character Glee has. He's even worse than Rachel at times.

...which is what I said.

(Personally, I don't think he's that horrible, inasmuch as I don't think he's particularly malicious.)

 

[ZephyrFate]

The whole obsession with Finn arc was definitely borderline malicious, if not outright so.

I really feel bad for the gay community if the qualities Kurt embodies are being seen as a model to follow.

 

[gerg]

The whole obsession with Finn arc was definitely borderline malicious, if not outright so.

Sure. But that was one arc, and iirc the morality of Kurt's actions were discussed in a later episode, to the point where Kurt appeared to, at least, realise that he probably shouldn't have done what he did. (I think it was Burt that told him that.)

It's not like Kurt is scheming every episode to get every male member of the cast to sleep with him. He's not actively planning to backstab his friends to propel himself to the top of the Glee club. He's not a villain.

 

[Soulscribe]

Except Kurt's interaction with Finn and how he handled it all was very petty, manipulative, and douchebaggy. There are times when it sucks to be him, but the majority of the flak he gets for being gay is totally because of his own foolish actions.

He's a flaming stereotype. But above that, he's a prick... to everyone. I don't even know why Blaine suddenly changed his mind and fell in love with him. He's an abrasive individual who makes no effort to befriend anyone on any level.

I actually felt bad for Kurt during the Finn story arc, not because he was a victim and wasn't in the wrong, but because he was confused and short-sighted and kept digging himself into a bigger and bigger hole throughout the season. That made him more believable as a character.

I can tell that Kurt is the only fully conceived character because I know many people who share characteristics with Kurt. Could just be a coincidence, but I can't see anybody I know through the other characters because I can't even place them in terms of personality. Most of them are just stereotyped empty space or there for the cool one-liners. It's really only Sue and Kurt that are legit characters, everybody else needs some work.

 

[ZephyrFate]

Sure. But that was one arc, and iirc the morality of Kurt's actions were discussed in a later episode, to the point where Kurt appeared to, at least, realise that he probably shouldn't have done what he did. (I think it was Burt that told him that.)

It's not like Kurt is scheming every episode to get every male member of the cast to sleep with him. He's not actively planning to backstab his friends to propel himself to the top of the Glee club. He's not a villain.

No, but he sure loves to act like he's better than everyone else. And that hasn't stopped even since he joined the Warblers. I'm still perplexed as to how people can find much at all good in his character when he's built to be a selfish prick.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I agree that Kurt is not a good person. Not at all, really. That said, I'm not the type of person who expects television characters to be role models.

It's when Ryan Murphy and others act like he's a role model that I get annoyed.

username/avatar confirms that!

Agreed-- I do not follow the creators of the show at all-- it would only annoy me.

 

[gerg]

No, but he sure loves to act like he's better than everyone else. And that hasn't stopped even since he joined the Warblers.

In a way, I think you're right. I do think that Kurt is quite arrogant as a character.

I'm still perplexed as to how people can find much at all good in his character when he's built to be a selfish prick.

A character doesn't only have to be morally "good" to have worth. You brought up that you would feel bad for the gay community if Kurt were considered a role model - in many ways, so would I. But that doesn't mean that he has to be a role model, either. Kurt can have value as a heavily flawed character, too, and afaic he might actually have more value as one.

I don't think that Kurt is a "good" character in that he always does the right thing for the right intentions. I think of him more as a pathetic character (in both senses of the word), and one who's major flaw is that he's arrogant.

In many ways I'm glad that one of the most prominent gay characters in Glee (if not currently on television) isn't only ever the victim.

 

[royalan]

lol, I'm the only one on here who likes Kurt. All the characters have annoying traits (Finn's general stupidity, Mercedes being a walking stereotype, Quinn's lack of depth, everything about Rachel) but Chris Colfer is by FAR the best actor on the show (outside of Jane Lynch and some of the adults), and Kurt has had some of the funniest one-liners and zingers throughout the show bar-none.

He's also the only main cast member who's been fully developed as a character. Unlike everybody else he actually has layers of complexity about him, his blase insults toward others are deeply rooted in his vulnerability, and the fact that he can overreact and play the victim quite a bit just makes him that much more rich of a character. We all have those moments, and whether you find Kurt annoying doesn't change the fact that he's the only fully realized Glee character, and the writers obviously know that. Otherwise they wouldn't have given him this much material.

I agree about Finn. Bleh. He gets overly "breathy" in some songs, and it showed in his "Loser Like Me" verse. I've never found any of his storylines interesting. The only time I actually kinda liked him was in Furt when he asked Kurt to dance with him, but otherwise his blank, open-mouthed stares do nothing for me.

Also Quinn can go to hell.

A few episodes ago I would have agreed with you, but now I'm starting to feel that Kurt is just Ryan Murphy's Mary Sue.

He has a butch mechanic father (who somehow makes enough money to keep him perfectly fashionable) who is also willing to go above and beyond to be super supportive dad of the year. The one guy at school who seriously bashes him does so because he's secretly gay and in love with him. Said bashing sends him fleeing to magical fantasy all boys school where he gets courted by a guy so unrealistically flawless that he's just a title away from being prince charming.

Oh, and add to that the fact that Kurt is now so virginal that he wouldn't know a penis if he saw one (and he has one).

I actually think that Quinn is one of the better written characters. Every episode I can't tell whether I love her or hate her; whether or not she's a good or bad guy. And then I remember that most of the pretty/popular/bitchy girls in high school were just like that. She starts off the Queen Bitch, then gets pregnant and experiences a fall from grace. She finds solace in the people she shunned, and then has her baby and becomes popular again, only to be a little more evened out after experiencing how cutthroat popularity to be. I really respected her character (and acting chops) after that scene with Rachel where she basically admits that Rachel has a much more promising future than she does.

In my opinion, Quinn's the only character who's truly had some development. I'm glad that she went through all she did last season and still maintained some of her conniving bitchiness. It would have been less honest to have her be a Mother Teresa at this point. People don't just change like that.

 

[Father_Brain]

Soulscribe: I'm with you almost 100% on Kurt. He's the most consistently written character in the regular cast, and while Murphy et al. have handled him less than perfectly (the speeches in Furt got to be a bit much, occasional scenes have veered too far into "this kid's a flaming queen and isn't that just so goddamn wacky" territory for my taste, and the whole Karofsky/Blaine/Dalton plot has been something of a trainwreck on a storytelling level) I think that they've largely succeeded in creating a three-dimensional gay character whose flaws are generally presented as such and not overlooked.

Ever since I've started watching the show, I've gotten the sense that much - by no means all, but a significant portion - of the loathing directed towards the character stems from the fact that he's an effeminate gay male, and that a certain minority of viewers are offended that the show dares to devote so much screen time to a gay character who isn't the complete antithesis of every stereotype in existence, as though kids like Kurt don't exist in real life and don't generally have a much harder time in high school than gay kids whose homosexuality is less readily apparent from their mannerisms alone. Just my two cents.

 

[gerg]

The one guy at school who seriously bashes him does so because he's secretly gay and in love with him.

You get rid of the "in love with him" bit, and I don't think that that's too unrealistic. After I came out at school I had the relatively unique experience of people not hating me for being gay, but because they thought that I was lying in order to try and get attention - being gay wasn't the problem, but saying that you were was! *rolleyes* Anyway, I later found out that one of the few people who was ever really rude to me (continuously so, and after the general disbelief had died down) was actually gay himself.

I also don't think that Dave is actually in love with Kurt. I think kissing him was just an outlet for his suppressed sexuality.

In regards to other characters with development, Santana's had quite a bit, if only recently. I'm not sure where Rachel's and Finn's development has led their characters. Other than that, most characters seem to have had minimal characterisation, whether or not their smaller, individual storylines have actually been enjoyable.

Fake edit to a real edit: Oh, and there's Lauren, too.

 

[royalan]

You get rid of the "in love with him" bit, and I don't think that that's too unrealistic.

You're right, it's not. I just don't buy that the one guy that significantly picked on Kurt did so because he was also gay. Maybe I went to a rougher school than I thought, but a guy as flaming as Kurt would have been picked on by more than just a single closeted homosexual.

That, combined with the rest of his storyline, just comes together to form something that's more fanfic than anything. Especially considering that there's now a sizable fan demographic that actually wants him to get together with his basher.

 

[amodelmerol]

I fianlly caught with Glee.

I have gay male friends, they all had it tough in their own ways and have stories to tell about school bullying and such. One of them is even more effeminate than Kurt

That's why I'm 100% sure I hate Kurt because he's written as an insufferable bitch, not because he is a very effeminate gay dude.

That said, I'm still disappointed because writing is really really erratical. Why do I keep watching? Because it still makes me laugh and music makes me feel good. I'll stop watching when it is no longer fun to watch.

In the meantime, I can still hope the writing goes back to Season 1 levels, this isn't another Heroes (yet)

 

[Spoit]

He really isn't. He's very petty and self-absorbed. Then again every single student in that club (with the exception of that Asian dancer kid) is a huge fucking tool.

The problem isn't that he is a tool. Because everyone in the show is. The problem is that they all give way to his, and to a much lesser extent rachel's, delusions simply because they (and a very local section of the fanbase) wish it hard enough

 

[gerg]

You're right, it's not. I just don't buy that the one guy that significantly picked on Kurt did so because he was also gay. Maybe I went to a rougher school than I thought, but a guy as flaming as Kurt would have been picked on by more than just a single closeted homosexual.

Kurt has been picked on throughout the series. He has had slushies regularly thrown at him throughout the series. Maybe the fact that this was true of pretty much every other character in the Glee club hasn't made that stand out as much, but it has happened.

As for why this one boy just so happens to fall for Kurt, and not the other gay students that must exist at McKinley High, the only answer I can give to that is that it's a TV show focuses on, perhaps, 25 students out of a school of hundreds. Perhaps the show could have highlighted the existence of LGBT clubs, or shown Dave acting against other gay students, but the reality is that the storyline included Kurt as he is a main character.

 

[i_am_ben]

i despise Kurt


but i find Chris Colfer to be a really funny and nice guy in interviews.

 

[Escape Goat]

Here are some high school yearbook photos and info on the Glee cast.

http://www.instyle.com/instyle/pack....html?xid=cnn-glee-hs-photos?cnn=yes&hpt=Sbin


holy crap @ Naya

and lol @ Mark

 

[Koodo]

http://www.instyle.com/instyle/pack....html?xid=cnn-glee-hs-photos?cnn=yes&hpt=Sbin

and lol @ Mark

omg indeed.


lol at some of these bitches saying they didn't fit in even though the same passage includes "friends with all the popular kids, homecoming princess!, etc."

Except Matthew Morrison. Loled at how he just outright said "I was the stud, dealwithit." Honest at least.

 

[sammyCYBORG]

Kurt and Santana are probably my two favourite characters as they are actually progressing somewhere. Sure, Kurt has been written appallingly in places, but he's consistent. He has the feelings of someone who is confused, and makes some poor choices, like with the crush he has on Finn. His flaws were there and him trying to project himself on to Finn and change who Finn was just made him a stronger character. We see things falling apart around him and it just characterises him better.

I think that is why I'm enjoying Santana more, we are seeing more of her, not just as a bitch, but actually someone who has feelings and they weren't completely randomly written in. We've seen her interactions with Brittany and now they are being deepened and explored more.

Rachel and Finn have become so flat now, it's horrible. And I'm not sure I like the Quinn angle, sure the only thing she has now is to become Prom Queen, but something just seems off. She is, occassionally, really manipulating, and where this is going with Finn it seems to be hovering over her really intentions. It's finally moving towards something, seeing as she finally warned off Rachel, but... I don't know if I like it.

_

I love those yearbook photos btw. Thanks for posting. ^_^

 

[Granger Danger]

(released April 19th)

Tracklisting:

1. Teenage Dream
2. Hey, Soul Sister
3. Bills, Bills, Bills
4. Silly Love Songs
5. When I Get You Alone
6. Animal
7. Misery
8. Blackbird
9. Candles
10. Raise Your Glass
11. Somewhere Only We Know
12. What Kind Of Fool
13. Do Ya Think I’m Sexy?

 

[Koodo]

People are going to be buying that album just for track #1.

 

[AlternativeUlster]

Here are some high school yearbook photos and info on the Glee cast.

http://www.instyle.com/instyle/pack....html?xid=cnn-glee-hs-photos?cnn=yes&hpt=Sbin


holy crap @ Naya

and lol @ Mark

I think they already showed those pictures during that Rolling Stone article from a while back actually. They seem really familiar.

 

[Granger Danger]

People are going to be buying that album just for track #1.

greatest remix ever

 

[BertramCooper]

(released April 19th)

Ugh.

Darren Criss is a good performer, but the Warblers' songs are some of the worst the show has ever done.

 

[PhoncipleBone]

(released April 19th)

Is the bird shitting out a music note?

Also, seeing them release a DVD of just the music performances from the show...ugh.

I pop in every now and then, and get reminded of just how far the show has gone.

Sorry for the derail.

 

[krypt0nian]

(released April 19th)

Tracklisting:

1. Teenage Dream
2. Hey, Soul Sister
3. Bills, Bills, Bills
4. Silly Love Songs
5. When I Get You Alone
6. Animal
7. Misery
8. Blackbird
9. Candles
10. Raise Your Glass
11. Somewhere Only We Know
12. What Kind Of Fool
13. Do Ya Think I’m Sexy?

Last 3 songs new? I have all the other CDs but I might just buy the new tracks.

Awesome cover though.

 

[ZephyrFate]

wow, im actually disagreeing with Glee haters for once -- the Warblers performances were easily the most entertaining thing the show has going for it right now, the fuck is you guys' deal?

 

[PhoncipleBone]

wow, im actually disagreeing with Glee haters for once -- the Warblers performances were easily the most entertaining thing the show has going for it right now, the fuck is you guys' deal?

The only Warbler's performance I saw was on the Super Bowl episode. While I think they did a good job on it, it was an unnecessary scene within the context of that episode. But that is a completely other discussion.

 

[Zoe]

wow, im actually disagreeing with Glee haters for once -- the Warblers performances were easily the most entertaining thing the show has going for it right now, the fuck is you guys' deal?

I really like how they do the whole acoustic thing. Too heavy on the solos, but it reminds me of barbershop quartets.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Warblers music is better than most of the show. Less auto-tune, often none.

 

[BertramCooper]

My biggest issue with the Warblers music is the super fake sounding background vocal track. It's so artificial and lifeless and makes all of the songs sound bland, even with a good singer like Criss on lead vocals.

 

[ZephyrFate]

My biggest issue with the Warblers music is the super fake sounding background vocal track. It's so artificial and lifeless and makes all of the songs sound bland, even with a good singer like Criss on lead vocals.

Which is... any different from any other Glee song? The background music for any Glee song is syncopated, synthesized beats. The Warblers at least differentiate by using a LOT less auto-tune because they have Darren Criss who can actually sing without help. Honestly, what would make Glee better is if the people who are there playing instruments behind the cast were actually contributed anything to the actual song.

God I hate synthesized shit behind singing, but at least the Warblers actually sing well, as they are fully a capella.

 

[Koodo]

I'll have to join the Warblers hate side. Not only is their existence within the story arch pretty meaningless, there's something about the way they sing that has never gelled with me.

Darren Criss is amazing of course and sohot.

Spoiler

boner

 

[ZephyrFate]

I'll have to join the Warblers hate side. Not only is their existence within the story arch pretty meaningless, there's something about the way they sing that has never gelled with me.

Darren Criss is amazing of course and sohot.

Spoiler

boner

Because they're... actually singing?

 

[Koodo]

Because they're... actually singing?

No. It's the dun dun dun dun in the background that I don't like. I would rather hear Darren Criss by himself. I can tolerate the popified renditions of New Directions regardless of the heavy auto tune, unless Finn is opening his mouth.

 

[BertramCooper]

Which is... any different from any other Glee song? The background music for any Glee song is syncopated, synthesized beats. The Warblers at least differentiate by using a LOT less auto-tune because they have Darren Criss who can actually sing without help. Honestly, what would make Glee better is if the people who are there playing instruments behind the cast were actually contributed anything to the actual song.

God I hate synthesized shit behind singing, but at least the Warblers actually sing well, as they are fully a capella.

The robotic background track ends up being more noticeable with the Warblers because it's done a capella. There's no instrumental track to distract you from how cheap it sounds.

 

[Ceres]

The only good part about the Warblers is the background vocals done by the real life a cappella group, Beelzebubs. Their musical arrangements on the other hand are crappy in my opinion.

 

[Snake]

The Warblers' uniforms make them look like they're from Hogwarts.

I hope Blaine shows Kurt his Patronus charm soon, if you catch my drift!

 

[Koodo]

I hope Blaine shows Kurt the world his Patronus charm soon, if you catch my drift!

I agree.

 

[WyndhamPrice]

Which is... any different from any other Glee song? The background music for any Glee song is syncopated, synthesized beats. The Warblers at least differentiate by using a LOT less auto-tune because they have Darren Criss who can actually sing without help. Honestly, what would make Glee better is if the people who are there playing instruments behind the cast were actually contributed anything to the actual song.

God I hate synthesized shit behind singing, but at least the Warblers actually sing well, as they are fully a capella.

As a guy who currently sings in an a cappella group the Warblers kind of drive me insane because you can obviously tell that they are all singing separately and mixing those vocal tracks together in a really hideous way which in some ways makes it more artificial sounding than the regular Glee kids with a backing band. Criss is great, I like hearing him, but the point of a group like that is all the voices melding together and it just loses it in the production (but still sounds better than some of the stuff New Directions does).

I like seeing an a cappella group featured so prominently on TV but it's still not quite there for me.

 

[BertramCooper]

The only good part about the Warblers is the background vocals done by the real life a cappella group, Beelzebubs. Their musical arrangements on the other hand are crappy in my opinion.

So there is an actual a capella group doing those vocals?

Honestly, I find that surprising. It still sounds super fake to me, especially when you see a group of 20-30 singers lip syncing to it. A group that size shouldn't sound so monotonous.

 

[WyndhamPrice]

So there is an actual a capella group doing those vocals?

Honestly, I find that surprising. It still sounds super fake to me, especially when you see a group of 20-30 singers lip syncing to it. A group that size shouldn't sound so monotonous.

Yeah, like I said in my above post, I don't think the problem is the talent, it's the production, which is pretty shit on Glee across the board 95% of the time.

The best thing they ever did was jam out to Nelly's Ride Wit Me in Season 1 because they just recorded them on set having fun and you could tell because it sounded so much more like humans singing together and not synthesizers.

 

[Zoe]

So there is an actual a capella group doing those vocals?

Honestly, I find that surprising. It still sounds super fake to me, especially when you see a group of 20-30 singers lip syncing to it. A group that size shouldn't sound so monotonous.

Looking at the pictures of the real group, none of them are in the Warblers.

 

[Ceres]

So there is an actual a capella group doing those vocals?

Honestly, I find that surprising. It still sounds super fake to me, especially when you see a group of 20-30 singers lip syncing to it. A group that size shouldn't sound so monotonous.

I'm sure just like ND, the vocals are padded. There's only like 12 guys in the Beezlebubs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqQGje9q-yw&feature=related

Looking at the pictures of the real group, none of them are in the Warblers.

They do the vocals. The guys on the show are just actors lip-syncing.

 

[ZephyrFate]

No. It's the dun dun dun dun in the background that I don't like. I would rather hear Darren Criss by himself. I can tolerate the popified renditions of New Directions regardless of the heavy auto tune, unless Finn is opening his mouth.

I don't know how you can tolerate Glee's terrible background music and not the Warblers. They're both exactly as shitty as each other.

 

[Koodo]

I don't know how you can tolerate Glee's terrible background music and not the Warblers. They're both exactly as shitty as each other.

Well, let's see:

1. The terrible background music in New Directions is getting in the way of who?
2. The terrible background music in the Warblers is interrumpting Darren Criss. It becomes noticeable and turns into noise.

That's just my slut explanation though.


I lean with the above comments that say the dun duns sound terribly off. The auto tune processing of New Directions sounds just like expected, so it's not as bothersome as these dun duns that make you go "WOAH SHOULD YOU BE SOUNDING THIS BAD."

 

[Granger Danger]

The Warblers' uniforms make them look like they're from Hogwarts.

I hope Blaine shows Kurt his Patronus charm soon, if you catch my drift!

I wonder what form his patronus would take. Probably a bird-of-paradise or a peacock.