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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
arkhamguy123
Member
Slimysnake: ya know guys, next Gen graphics could look better than 60fps PS4 games
Everyone on page 112: what a fucking child delusion old man idiot who knows nothing about gaming
Everyone on page 112: what a fucking child delusion old man idiot who knows nothing about gaming
ChiefDada
Gold Member
I can smell the bullshit that is this post straight through the my laptop display.
HawarMiran
Banned
There are always people like that man. Every generation. They never learn
"All in all, it took a team of over 20 employees more than a year to complete production on the demo."But to make that demo, that one guy needed the work of hundreds of people at Epic, Quixxel and Coalition.
Making a cool animation is easy, when all the work has been done before.
Besides, that demo is very unrealistic. It doesn't have the usual Unreal Engine stutters.
The Matrix Awakens imagines the future of storytelling in Unreal Engine 5
Matrix movie veterans help bring Neo to virtual life for Epic Games
www.polygon.com
arkhamguy123
Member
Okay so how is it bullshit. Articulate your thoughts like a person instead of raging.
Iām open to hear how Iām intensely wrong there.
arkhamguy123
Member
What lesson are we supposed to learn?
winjer
Gold Member
"All in all, it took a team of over 20 employees more than a year to complete production on the demo."
The Matrix Awakens imagines the future of storytelling in Unreal Engine 5
Matrix movie veterans help bring Neo to virtual life for Epic Games
And how many to code the game engine. And create the assets. And do the photogrammetry. And the sound design. Etc.
HawarMiran
Banned
that graphic whores whine at the start of every generation, then get satisfied later on. but the following generation they forget everything. rinse and repeat
HawarMiran
Banned
yes and the current gen basically started this year. so don't come with 'but the generation started 3 years ago"
ChiefDada
Gold Member
There's no raging going on here. Your portrayal of Slimy's attitude and perspective as it relates to this thread is bullshit, pure and simple.
arkhamguy123
Member
oh right of course not. Gotcha.
And I donāt think it is thatās basically the general premise heās illustrating here by posting decent little UE5 videos and getting shit on for it for some reason. Pure and simple as you said.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If these developers who sell 30-40 million copies of their games lifetime canāt afford a few engineers who can match the quality of the best engine out there then they can always afford to license UE5 and have a pre code pre built engine. That simply should not be an excuse in an age where we have games like gow, hogwarts, zelda and elden rings selling 12 million copies in weeks. Thatās close to a billion dollars in revenue. Mostly profit.
I really donāt understand why we continue to make excuses for devs. Back in 2020 when halo was revealed, we immediately said 343 sucks and the slipstream engine was last gen. 3 years later, we are getting the same last Gen graphics but because the studios have a better track record than 343 we are willing to make excuses for them.
Just last Gen, We would look at the tflops of the base x1 and the talent delta of Sony devs to say ok tlou2 looks so much better than halo because naughty dogs are obviously more talented than the hacks at 343 who were shackled by the crappy 1.3 tflops esram bottlenecked x1. Now we are seeing nd and insomniac unable to take advantage of 5x more tflops producing roughly identical visuals and we canāt bring ourselves to say hey maybe itās a talent issue.
winjer
Gold Member
But I didn't say they couldn't do better with Spiderman 2. What I'm saying is that those UE5 demos have a lot of work behind them. It's not just one guy making a cool video animation. Nor just 20 people making a tech demo.
The man hours to make things like nanite, lumen, tsr, pso automatic gathering, and many more tech and tools are staggering.
Let's not pretend that what Epic did with UE5 is easy. It is not. And very few studios will be able to create anything similar.
UE5 wasn't created specifically for this demo nor was the Quixel library. Why are you trying to bundle those costs on the demo team?
winjer
Gold Member
Because none of those would exist, if someone hadn't created the game engine, and the photogrametry, and all the necessary tech.
Johnny Concrete
Member
Ok, we havenāt seen any nextgen graphics at all, right? (except for the ue5 tech demoās)
So all developers are lazy? Itās one big conspiracy?
Or what is the conclusion here?
An indie dev can grab UE5 and use the Quixel demo to make a quick tech demo. Was the budget of his project 100 million dollars because that's the total cost of the tech and assets he used? No.
Johnny Concrete
Member
Itās much more actually, you forgot the research and development costs of Intel making the computer chips that are present in the machine the indie dev used to create the demo!
winjer
Gold Member
The reason why I have to point out that there is a lot of work creating UE5 and all those assets is because some people looked at SpiderMan 2 and said, it only took one guy to make an animation in the UE5 Matrix Tech demo.
Which is complete bullshit. Doing a video with some cars going around is easy, when all the assets and game engine were already done.
But that's the case with SM2: they already have an engine and they're recycling tons of assets.
winjer
Gold Member
Correct. But unlike "that one guy with the UE5 car chase video", Insomniac has to code their own engine, most of their tools, create assets, scripting, etc.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Lazy, lack of talent, skill, ambition, pick your poison. These devs chose to make last Gen games even ps5 dev kits were already out. Gg said they did everything they wanted to do with hfw. Then made the finale a cutscene fight between hundreds of robots. That shows lack of ambition.
Nd and insomniac had no such ps4 bottleneck, they saw epic implement nanite in 2020, likely knew about it in advance since epic made that demo with Sony on a ps5 devkit. 3 years later they havenāt been able to implement any of those features in their engines. That shows lack of talent.
Lazy? Doubtful since they are still putting in insane amount of effort in creating gigantic games but its funnier and more straight to the point to call them lazy.
Is there a conspiracy? No but when the entire industry chased gaas, or microtransactions or Kinect/move trash, we called it a trend not a conspiracy. The current industry trend is towards putting out cross Gen games for various reasons. Be it publisher mandated, lack of ambition or lack of talent. Respawn devs were asked point blank why they didnāt choose ue5 when the dev started around the time of the first us5 ps5 demo, and they said they didnāt want to work on an unfinished engine. Then proceeded to ship arguably the most broken AAA game in years. Ten years ago, stig would ship gow3 on an engine that was in development while they were developing the game. That used to be the norm back then. Now itās an excuse.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah thatās why i am suggesting they skip half of that stuff by licensing ue5. They clearly donāt have the talent or resources to do everything on their own so time to spend some of that $70 to license tech that actually looks next Gen instead of acting like they are some indie studio that canāt afford to pay epic their 12% cut.
winjer
Gold Member
That is an option only available in the last year or so. But a game takes many more years to make.
Which they already did. Last gen. Adding features on top like RT is nowhere near the cost of making a proper next-gen engine, which they didn't do.
That's why first parties start making exclusive next-gen engines since years before the new consoles launch. Insomniac didn't do the homework this gen.
winjer
Gold Member
I agree their tech is underwhelming. But let's not pretend, again, that these kind of things could be done by one guy alone. Or even twenty in a couple of months.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Nice straw man. Every word in your post is designed to try to paint us in a bad light because you're so desperate to pretend everything is good. We're a few months shy of what, 3 years into this gen? Were the "graphics whores" "whining" last gen when 3 years into it we had Uncharted 4, kZ shadowfall, second son, mgs phantom pain, Witcher 3, ryse, driveclub, the order, Quantum Break, bf4, bloodborne, dark Souls 3, rise of tomb raider...shit we were about to get the the ps4 pro and second wave of graphically impressive games such as horizon and forza 7 by almost 3 years in.
There was no shortage of graphically impressive games. I remember the complaints over framerate tho. This gen we have the framerate but have stagnated with graphics.
If you're not a "graphics whore" what are you doing here anyway? You obviously care too.
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Johnny Concrete
Member
Well they could iterate on their own Engine and release Spider-Man 2 this fall or they could take your suggestion and rework all of their systems into UE5, get a small graphical upgrade, release 2,5 years later and give Epic a big cut.
Youāve seen the general reception of the gameplay trailer: everyone LOVED it. Some improvements to the lighting, materials and possibly no LOD transitions would not even be noticeable by 90% of their target audience.
So yea, easy choice then.
I think you are generally overreacting this issue big time, but you also have a valid point: what if these inhouse engines are really getting behind in the future.
Unreal has a huge team fully committed to enhance its features, while inhouse developers have just a fraction of their resources focusing on that.
Itās not a fair fight.
I fully expect PlayStation to double down on enhancing Decima and make that the go-to engine for future PS Studioās titles. Theyād have to compete directly with Epic.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
I think this is the biggest reason why things are the way they are. Last gen we had all these devs overhauling their engines for pbr. I would guess that the Matrix Demo utilizes the SSD in a more comprehensive way than what Sony's own devs have done in Ragnarok, FW, returnal, and even Ratchet. I know the devs for those games are on record about how they utilized the SSD but at what capacity compared to Matrix?
Sony made big promises prior to the gen insofar as what the SSD and ps5 would allow devs to do. Does it feel like they've made good on Cerny's presentations?
arkhamguy123
Member
Ragnarok utilizes the SSD like my 200 pound tinder cat fish back in the college days utilized the gym.
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With the assets freely avaible online, some might.
SM2 doesn't look cross-gen due to a lack of work or talent, it's due to a lack of will. It's a conscious choice.
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winjer
Gold Member
Not for a full game.
HawarMiran
Banned
'Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen'
not
'Tell Me Your Opinion About How Bad Everything Looks And Try To Be As Cringey As Possible (Bonus Points If You Can Be A Whiny Bitch Doing So)'
Lethal01
Member
I like how Zelda looks, never said it was a graphical showcase.
Every post you make is ugly and it's hilarious that you know that you know nothing about game development but are so used to hearing it pointed out that you put in in quotes.
So what's you're excuse for why despite the fact that you are pulling things out of your ass with no knowledge about how these things work people shouldn't be pointing and laughing every time you pretend you're words are worth more than a toddler who couldn't even beat botw. The points you think you're making often are equivalent to little more than "the Genesis has blast processing so it shouldn't be slowing down at this point" and just about anyone working on the game at insomniac would rightly laugh at them so maybe try working to get up to the level where you could actually fit in with them instead of just going "I want this, so it should be possible"
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Fortunately Insomniac isn't a one man team.
SM2 is basically a cross-gen game. Don't be mad at us for pointing such an obvious thing.
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You hopped in a thread dedicated to graphics and swarmed by people who are passionate about graphics. Then proceeded by calling people graphics whores (which I am fine with btw) and accused them of whining and indirectly (or directly) attacking them whilst acting all snarky and cunning. This is a thread dedicated to graphics and those who care about them and you know it. Stop acting smart, son.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Imagine if you went into a thread about redfall, gotham knights, and halo infinite, and your only contribution was to shut down discussion because 99.9999% of the people on this board are not engine programmers themselves. Imagine if that was the requirement to discuss video games on an internet forum.
GAF Posting requirements everyone:
Requirements & Skills:
- Minimum of 3 years working in the video game industry
- Minimum of 1 shipped AAA game
- B.S. in Computer Science and/or Mathematics or equivalent work experience
- Excellent 3D math skills (especially linear algebra and vector math)
- Extensive experience in creating one or more of the following PC applications in C++ or C#: level editor, art prototype catalogue/database, animation/cinematic editor, material/shader editor, dcc plug-ins, build tools, data messaging tools, lighting tools or equivalent software
- Experience with PC application programming
- Experience with console programming
- Experience with databases and query optimizations
- Experience with a scripting language
- Experience using DCC applications
This is such a childrens arguments that no one in their right mind would make it. By your logic, movie critics shouldnt get to rate movies until they direct a movie themselves. Game critics cannot give redfal a 5/10 unless they have sat there writing code for years. Absolute nonsense of an argument. Something I would see on gamefaq and twitter.
Lethal01
Member
Sounds good, would improve things dramatically, but you are right, we clearly aren't gonna cross that bar anytime soon and boy does it show
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So what are your qualifications?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I dont know if thats accurate. Especially considering how many threads this has spawned in both gaf and era, and how much Insmoniac and Jstevenson has had to damage control on twitter lately. I wouldnt really go by youtube likes. Insomniac's response to the controversy is proof that the praise wasnt universal.
And honestly, I dont care about the graphics. I am infatuated with zelda right now. I am playing around with its physics systems and having a blast. If Insomniac had kept the same graphics as the PS4 games, and upgraded the NPC simulations, destruciton and physics, or added anything even that even remotely taxed the CPU, I wouldve been happy. What we saw was mostly a PS4 game under the hood which is far more depressing than the overall visual fidelity.
Lethal01
Member
Caring and being interested in graphics is graphics is great, drowning a thread in "GAMES should specifically be doing X, Y and Z at this res because the hardware has this many tflops and this hardware feature than I've never actually used" is not great
How many times are we gonna post some random UE5 video that looks good and use it as evidence of what a real shipping game should be.
Actual games being compared make total sense, "that company did this on this hardware, so we know it's possible" that's totally reasonable. Comparing spiderman to another openworld PS5 game? makes sense.
But then we got "that company did A, and this other company did B, plus the ps5 is 4x stronger, so we should be able to do A and B plus a res bump with some added features with a bigger world in about 4 years" making up an imaginary game based on no real knowledge and then saying that things not matching up to this imaginary game means obviously there is an industry wide trend and not that you simply don't have a grasp of what it actually takes for the jump you are imagining.
"obviously there is an industry wide trend"
Yeah, we all can see that. The point of discussion is the cause of that trend. Is it due to lack of power? Clearly not.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If anything, the diminishing returns crowd was the one that was the loudest last gen. I remember wasting hours telling people to expect a big leap and they were like nah, PS360 graphics are good enough. As soon as KZSF was shown though, they shut up for good. By E3 2013, we had AC Unity, Division, Witcher 3, KZSF, Ryse, Infamous, Forza Horizon 4 and Driveclub all set a new bar for graphics. Meanwhile, Sony just had their first conference in 3 years to show off year 3 and year 4 stuff, and nothing looks even remotely next gen. Hell, KZSF still looks fucking incredible.
Just a couple of years ago, people were laughing at me for saying photorealism might be possible this gen. I was using Tim Sweeney's 2015 quote that 40 tflops is what you'd need for photorealism, but that we should get very close if we stick to a lower graphics resolution and come up with new game design paradigms. Well, then Matrix came out and at least in cutscenes, it came very close.
Right now, in the other spiderman threads, people are actually making the argument that graphics have been maxed out. That PS5 cannot do anything better than Spiderman 2. That Matrix is a scam. That diminishing returns have finally caught up. This is something I saw way back in 2012 before KZSF was announced. Some people just have no imagination.
Anyway, lets get this discussion back on track.
XBox showcase is in exactly one week with summer gamefest only a few days away. As far as I am concerned, Hellblade 2 is now the defacto graphics leader but i am expecting another big downgrade because well, why the fuck not.
Other than that, are we really expecting games looking better than Spiderman 2? I am so jaded that i honestly cant imagine fable, perfect dark and avowed coming even close, but i think Avatar should be doing some cool shit gameplay wise.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
If you look at the Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth developer comments, they said they are using the same exact PS4 models even though the game is exclusive to PS5. They state in the same interview that the game is PS5 exclusive because of the graphics fidelity and the ssd. well, then why does the game look freaking identical to the PS4 game??
- The main charactersā 3D models havenāt changed. However, some characters have been adjusted, such as Yuffieās model, which we touched up from Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade.
- Itās exclusive to PlayStation 5 because of the graphical quality, of course, as well as SSD access speed. Since the adventure unfolds in a vast world after the escape from Midgar, loading stress is an extreme bottleneck. We felt we needed the specifications of PlayStation 5 to overcome that and travel the world comfortably.
I mean can we at least get some next gen hair rendering on sephiroth and cloud? Even NBA and Fifa updated their character models all the way back in 2020. Why cant these AAA devs do the same?
arkhamguy123
Member
Starfield will look better than Spider-ManIf anything, the diminishing returns crowd was the one that was the loudest last gen. I remember wasting hours telling people to expect a big leap and they were like nah, PS360 graphics are good enough. As soon as KZSF was shown though, they shut up for good. By E3 2013, we had AC Unity, Division, Witcher 3, KZSF, Ryse, Infamous, Forza Horizon 4 and Driveclub all set a new bar for graphics. Meanwhile, Sony just had their first conference in 3 years to show off year 3 and year 4 stuff, and nothing looks even remotely next gen. Hell, KZSF still looks fucking incredible.
Just a couple of years ago, people were laughing at me for saying photorealism might be possible this gen. I was using Tim Sweeney's 2015 quote that 40 tflops is what you'd need for photorealism, but that we should get very close if we stick to a lower graphics resolution and come up with new game design paradigms. Well, then Matrix came out and at least in cutscenes, it came very close.
Right now, in the other spiderman threads, people are actually making the argument that graphics have been maxed out. That PS5 cannot do anything better than Spiderman 2. That Matrix is a scam. That diminishing returns have finally caught up. This is something I saw way back in 2012 before KZSF was announced. Some people just have no imagination.
Anyway, lets get this discussion back on track.
XBox showcase is in exactly one week with summer gamefest only a few days away. As far as I am concerned, Hellblade 2 is now the defacto graphics leader but i am expecting another big downgrade because well, why the fuck not.
Other than that, are we really expecting games looking better than Spiderman 2? I am so jaded that i honestly cant imagine fable, perfect dark and avowed coming even close, but i think Avatar should be doing some cool shit gameplay wise.
Schmendrick
Member
We've already seen chunks of that game, and it really doesn't. Bethesda doesn't even touch high end PS4 graphics with what they've shown....
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arkhamguy123
Member
Iād agree with you maaaaybe if they didnāt show that 11.11.22 real time trailer using in game assets and show off the montage of planet landscapes in last summers demonstration.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
If their games make a billion dollars revenue like you suggested a few posts ago then thatās $120 million dollars per game to Epic. If they develop games using their own engines (which theyāve already invested tens of millions of dollars into) then theyāre making an extra billion dollars for every ten first party games they release versus using UE5 for every game.
What is it you want from Spider-Man 2 exactly? It will run with 1440p image quality at 60fps or 4k image quality at a locked 30fps using absolutely ridiculous traversal speeds which was one of the wow moments of the original UE5 demo. Insomniac are also using RT reflections on water and thousands of windows throughout New York City. On top of all that the build is months old and the finished game will be much more polished than the demo they just showed.
At least wait for the finished game before the meltdowns and calling developers that work 60+ hour weeks in the run up to AAA game releases āuntalentedā and ālazyāā¦
Devs are doing the bare minimum because their games still sell well and fanboys shill freely for them.If you look at the Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth developer comments, they said they are using the same exact PS4 models even though the game is exclusive to PS5. They state in the same interview that the game is PS5 exclusive because of the graphics fidelity and the ssd. well, then why does the game look freaking identical to the PS4 game??
This is really frustrating because FF7 was a UE4 title that suffered heavily due to UE4 constrained. It looked gorgeous at times but had some really rough looking areas and texture streaming issues. Shipped literally a week before UE5 was revealed to public and what do they do? They stick with UE4 for a game shipping four years later in 2024.
- The main charactersā 3D models havenāt changed. However, some characters have been adjusted, such as Yuffieās model, which we touched up from Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade.
- Itās exclusive to PlayStation 5 because of the graphical quality, of course, as well as SSD access speed. Since the adventure unfolds in a vast world after the escape from Midgar, loading stress is an extreme bottleneck. We felt we needed the specifications of PlayStation 5 to overcome that and travel the world comfortably.
I mean can we at least get some next gen hair rendering on sephiroth and cloud? Even NBA and Fifa updated their character models all the way back in 2020. Why cant these AAA devs do the same?
Only Epic and a couple other devs (4A Games and CD Project Red) are pushing the envelope.