So much Spiderman 2 cap and it's gonna make lot of people looks silly (I believe) when the June showcases take place and give us a proper look at what current gen is truly capable of. It's clear as daylight that Spiderman 2 is not built from ground up and is mostly rehash of last gen technology, so capping for it and saying that current gen is limited is ridiculous. Let's wait for June events to take place and I think we'll get much better idea regarding this gen.
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
ChiefDada
Member
What do you mean capping for it? Anyways ray tracing isn't last gen technology and neither is the streaming tech that allows for high speed traversal and seamless character swapping. You might not value these features nearly as much as some others who do but it doesn’t change these facts.
CamHostage
Member
That'd be nice if it happens, and especially good for Xbox gamers, but...
The first time I personally had this malaise of, "Oh no, this gen is going to be even rougher than we thought..." was the last time a "built from the ground up for next-gen" game was shown and it was Forza Motorsport and it didn't blow everybody out of the water either. (STALKER 2 also got a muted response, Starfield's graphics have underwhelmed, and when they finally got around to showing Hellblade 2, that also went over so-so instead of striking viewers as evolutionary.) All these games all have some aspects of their engines well worth talking about and checking out (Motorsport particularly promises some gameplay tech which wouldn't be seen in a video,) but for those who are still stomping their feet that this gen is no fun because the graphics don't put past-gen in its place, I'm not confident that this show will be the great big inflection point to justify your console purchase.
But, it'd be nice if it happens...
No your eyes are working fine. Even with a high bitrate stream the game looked underwhelming and like something that could easily be done on a PS4.
That being said I do think its important to also mention there is something about Remedy's Northlight engine that makes it look so much better in person than via screenshots and video. Like both QB and Control both look alot worse in screengrabs than when playing. For a while even after seeing high resolution images of QB I still thought it looked nothing like the reveal and releativly pedestrian but when I played it the shit was gobbsmackingly good looking. Same with control. I think it has to do with how subtle alot of there texture and shader work is that it gets lost with both jpg and video compression more than most.
If you watch the recent video on the character you can see far higher fidelity looking models of alan via closeup shots in engine. If thats the quality of his in game model and the same descrepancy remains between what we saw on the gameplay reveal trailer and this acrross all assets then there is still good reason to be hopefull.
Pretty sure there were plenty last gen games that had ray tracing on PC or on new consoles. Ray tracing alone doesn't make a game "next gen", even though ray tracing is a current gen feature. By that logic games like Control, Watch Dogs Legion, Hitman 3 and others are "next gen" games because they have ray tracing. That's simply not true.
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All examples you have given can easily be disputed. Forza was clearly shown while it still had long to go, hence why it got delayed as much as it did. Stalker 2 is being worked on by a small team with limited budget in war torn Ukraine. Starfield is built on what is now an ancient engine that was outdated 10 years ago.
Also not sure why mention Xbox exclusively as I was talking about June showcases that include Xbox, Summer Game Fest, Ubisoft direct and others and not Xbox alone.
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HawarMiran
Banned
You are talking about a topic you have no expertise in and pretend you know what you are talking about. who is acting smart son? BTW I am a graphics whore myself. That is not an insult
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol exactly. By that logic i was playing next Gen games like metro, control and bf 2042 in 2019.
Never ever have I acted smart. I don’t know jack shit about game development, all I know is I want games to graphically look good. I do know though that the current consoles are powerful enough to warrant better-looking games.
HawarMiran
Banned
and they will come. as they always do.
Whilst I am no expert on game development I do find what
SlimySnake
says sensible in the sense these consoles are more than powerful enough to warrant better-looking games. We have The Matrix demo which we all actually played and enjoy, it ain’t no YT video. We can argue it’s a demo and my rebuttal would be it was made by a handful of people and all that crap we been saying for months (years).I also agree with Slimy that we shouldn’t give devs a pass. While I don’t know jack shit about game development I know games could look much better by using logic. The games today look so similar to PS4 games barely any improvements, so going by logic and other factors I know for a fact games could look better and devs are somehow phoning things in.
TheRedRiders
Member
4A Games have already stated that they're fully overhauling their engine to take advantage of the next-gen feature set.
Tom Henderson has already leaked that the next Metro game is at a fully playable stage and will likely be revealed before the end of the year.
What they achieved with Exodus on consoles is astonishing, ray-traced global illumination at 60 FPS. One of the best RTGI implementations we've seen to date as well.
The "graphics whore" in me is getting excited.
I dunno much about Remedy honestly, don’t play their games but I am interested in Alan Wake. I will rewatch the trailer just to see what the fuss is all about.
Honestly, I think the graphics bar is so low right now that any game that looks remotely decent is praised all the way to the moon. I an not saying AW looks bad or even average, far from it but it doesn’t look as good as a huge chunk of people are making it out to be.
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Hugare
Member
If you look at the Final Fantasy 7 Rebirth developer comments, they said they are using the same exact PS4 models even though the game is exclusive to PS5. They state in the same interview that the game is PS5 exclusive because of the graphics fidelity and the ssd. well, then why does the game look freaking identical to the PS4 game??
This is really frustrating because FF7 was a UE4 title that suffered heavily due to UE4 constrained. It looked gorgeous at times but had some really rough looking areas and texture streaming issues. Shipped literally a week before UE5 was revealed to public and what do they do? They stick with UE4 for a game shipping four years later in 2024.
- The main characters’ 3D models haven’t changed. However, some characters have been adjusted, such as Yuffie’s model, which we touched up from Final Fantasy VII Remake Intergrade.
- It’s exclusive to PlayStation 5 because of the graphical quality, of course, as well as SSD access speed. Since the adventure unfolds in a vast world after the escape from Midgar, loading stress is an extreme bottleneck. We felt we needed the specifications of PlayStation 5 to overcome that and travel the world comfortably.
I mean can we at least get some next gen hair rendering on sephiroth and cloud? Even NBA and Fifa updated their character models all the way back in 2020. Why cant these AAA devs do the same?
With Arkham Knight you have a 2015 game using UE 3.5 that looks better than 90% of UE 4 games on the market
Callisto Protocol uses a modified version of UE 4 that also looks better than most other games on the market
It's all about the developer, man.
FF VII R is one of the best looking UE 4 games out there.
It also has one of the best character models, so SE not changing them is nothing to worry about, imo. Better textures and shaders is enough to make them look almost CG like.
I'm 100% confident that it will be a technicaly sound game.
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This so much.
Its like when people first saw the Teaser Trailer for HFW there was an understandable mix of Awe and Disappointment at the visuals (which seemed significantly short of what people exspected) and later slowy changed to acceptance even after the clear downgrade which was the gameplay reveal. Everyone then was like "It looks pretty good for a crossgen title" and "its not a next gen Exclusive so lets not be too harsh on it".
Later on with some additonal gaslighting help from DF as usual after they proclaimed this cross gen game as a "PS5 Masterclass" the narrative moved even further too "These graphics are completely next gen and we at best should not exspect much past this."
Now with Spiderman 2 reveal the narrative has been pushed even further to " Spiderman 2 looks better than HFW".
Corporations always deliver the bare minimum they can for the most money and gamers keep signalling that the current bare minimum actually isnt even low enough. Infact they can get away with so much less is what there hearing.
And you bet your ass there taking notes.
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Negotiator101
Member
I'd agree if we hadn't seen Hellblade 2, which is levels above anything we've seen apart from tech demos. June 11th we shall see after the showcase.
H . R . 2
Member
exactly. you don't have to be an engineer to enjoy a car or to know what changes can make the ride even smoother or more appealingWhilst I am no expert on game development I do find what
I also agree with Slimy that we shouldn’t give devs a pass. While I don’t know jack shit about game development I know games could look much better by using logic. The games today look so similar to PS4 games barely any improvements, so going by logic and other factors I know for a fact games could look better and devs are somehow phoning things in.
let me be frank here for once, I hope I don't offend anybody, this is just my theory and my own humble opinion, apologies for the rant in advance.
the subliminal message of the tug of war between the two sides of this argument is that the 60fps crowd here, on a subconscious level don't want to let go of a higher fps
even if it results in visually sub-standard or unattractive games [that does not mean they don't like visually advanced games].
This is a phenomenon that I would chalk up to an unconscious, unwanted, however, totally real inferiority complex caused by the "superior" PCMR crowd,
because the only thing that "PCMR" had going for them was the higher framerate and the occasional "Crysis" [there are rarely any PC games pushing the visual envelope].
so with that privilege, they thought they had a right to look down on console players. but the majority of those console "peasants" always wanted the framerate bragging right, however,
at a fraction of the price of a PC so once they have been given this new, longed-for feature, they are now loath to relinquish this so-called "right", completely unbeknownst to the fact that
Sony and MS HAD TO offer 60fps on top of the much advertised 4K feature to compensate for the damage caused by the pandemic as well as the talent leak that has happened over the past 3 years
while being totally ignorant to the fact that the this would now be considered by the players as the new 'golden standard'.
now with all the talent and passion gone, the tight schedules, the unwillingness to take creative risks, and the ever-increasing expectations, they are stuck with only what they have.
that's why Sony has become the new MS with a repetitive output of creatively bankrupt games, none of which I am personally invested in.
so if you have bought a PS5 and you don't like SM or FF or the Horizons, too bad, your problem.
yes I am no longer the targeted audience, I admit and concur because I was interested in novel games such as the Order,B:AK, DriveClub
whose studios have now been either massacred or disbanded. BUT, there is also what Shawn Layden once said and I am paraphrasing:
"going forward, the industry will take far fewer risks while putting an emphasis on monestisation over effort and creativity"
which is why they are left with the 60fps feature, because it is easier to stagnate and keep both the players and the devs in the limbo of their comfort zone rather than building up consumer and workplace expectations.
just remember, we can always have 60fps, but at this rate we will not necessarily always have talent and passion that can produce technically marvelous games.
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H . R . 2
Member
I have watched the reveal trailer and the gameplay trailer shown last year back to back and I must say the difference in the quality of facial animations and character details is night and day.
I wouldn't call it a downgrade because MS cleverly presented the reveal trailer as "in-engine", so it was nothing more than a vertical slice, especially given how painfully early it was announced.
but the second trailer, although very beautiful, did not impress as much as it should have [compounded by the absence of gameplay visuals ]. I wouldn't have expected more if they hadn't shown what they claimed they could do with Series X in the trailer
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ChiefDada
Member
Ok so you agree with me that ray tracing is a current gen feature. Great. Now we get back to that pesky question of what defines a current gen game. Because you and everyone else here are quick to list games that are not current gen, without offering a definition - even if it's your own - for the nebulous term.
Negotiator101
Member
Still levels above anything else outside of tech demo's.
H . R . 2
Member
if I may interject my own take on this, I think what is meant by most here as Next-gen is not so much about the mere amalgamation of these features, as it is about the implementation of them,
not as afterthoughts, but as intentional choices and features that can genuinely elevate and enhance gameplay, that is the creative use of these features which in combination with great art direction can result in that "wow" moment. [the SM2 showcase had neither]
there is SO MUCH about these consoles that has remained untapped
thus far no combination of these next-gen features has amazed us graphics whores as effectively as The Matrix Demo has.
we had The Order 1886, back in 2015! which looks just as good if not even ccasionally better with a lot more going on, on the screen
I would only call HB2 a technical upgrade over a game like The Order only if it manages to live up to its first trailer
also that was one hell of a trailer....... 3 years ago! not so much today as more time goes by without a release date and as more visually striking games come out
I hope the showcase proves me wrong
we'll soon see
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Negotiator101
Member
I disagree but yeah the 11th will show more.
SolidQ
Member
Stalker 2 screens, not from leaked build - https://www.dsogaming.com/screensho...d-new-beautiful-4k-screenshots-for-stalker-2/
Damien Crowley
Member
More like Graphical INfidelity, amirite, my fellow graphic hoes? 
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Some interesting takes. I definitely think DF calling HFW PS5 masterclass while showing PS4 side by sides that look nearly identical is kinda of bizarre. Then gaslighting any Spiderman criticism then themselves admitting it doesnt look as good as other cross gen games is again absolutely bizarre. It's clear that they dont want to risk their reputation with these studios but my goodness have some fucking backbone you cowards. TBH, NX Gamer is also guilty of this.
I do think its a bit unfair to blame PCMR or the 60 fps crowd for this. I doubt devs care too much about PC. Clearly they put zero effort into these ports. I literally had to stop playing Star Wars because i love the game and couldnt handle the constant 1% drops to 15 fps anymore. So why would they all of a sudden pivot to them? Not to mention all these 30 fps games like gotham knights, redfall and i bet you anything, suicide squad was going to be 30 fps too. There is a weird cpu issue preventing these gaas coop games from hitting 60 fps on consoles.
To me, it's just easier to make a 60 fps game with last gen visuals then worrying about upgrading graphics. And all the devs took that easy way out. The guys with the cross gen games like HFW, GOW and TLOU, and even the guys with next gen only games like Star Wars. Everyone wants to do the bare minimum. I remember how TLOU2's motion matching blew up on the internet in 2018, and yet 5 years later, we have a total of zero games that bothered implementing it. Star Wars animations look so damn janky its kinda sad that AAA devs were ok with shipping a next gen game like this in 2023.
At the end of the day, I wont blame the consumer. Gamers are fanboys at heart. We grow up playing this stuff, loving these studios, console manufacturers and nostalgia is a helluva drug. It's the critics job to point out lazy formulaic entries, be it in terms of gameplay systems or visual fidelity. And the devs have to push themselves. Their vision is clearly held back by hardware but they no longer go the extra mile and when they do they waste it on dumb shit like mocapping and animating thousands of lines of dialogue for hundreds of NPCs in horizon. Honestly, I was shocked at how dated TLOU Part 1 felt. It was my GOTG alongside MGS4, but after playing the remake, I am seriously reconsidering my love for the original. Maybe they needed to do a better job remaking that game with dodge, prone and melee enhancements that never made it in, but with the critics giving the remake high scores, there is no incentive to go the extra mile.
GymWolf
Member
As unimpressive as it comes.
H . R . 2
Member
I think we might have got our wires crossed there. we are actually in agreement over that fact. as I said, it's more viable and less financially taxing for companies to give console players 60fps than push console visuals to the limit.
sadly have to agree, are they using lumen? there seems to be massive light leak on the bottom of the walls in the 4th picture and the walkway supports seems to have no shadows or AO which lumen should provide.
SolidQ
Member
Mb Xbox build?
No idea but the consoles have done lumen in fortnite and the matrix demo, those 4 shots are clearly a step down from the previous ones shown. I'll be playing it either way cause I loved stalker but it feels like another ue5 game incoming that isn't going to live up to the ue5 hype visually.
The initial reveal was impressive. The later footage we got looks cross-gen quality too.
Exactly. Here's an id Software guy talking about this exact same problem a quarter of a century ago:
Negotiator101
Member
I've not seen or played any game that looks that good, and certainly no cross gen game.
H . R . 2
Member
a great watch, thank you
what he mentions @6:45 about Hollywood designers and their deep understanding of techniques such as cinematic/dramatic lighting makes so much sense
and explains what we graphics enthusiasts have already repeatedly said here about hero lighting or similar techniques and their impact on the overall visual presentation
besides the rampant issue of superficial diversity, studios are now becoming too technically oriented and they assume that the availability of these new features will automatically enable them to create visually astonishing games
I believe these days the devs themselves have no more of an eye for detail and an artistic approach than the average gamer does.
the production of the Matrix Demo by a team of Hollywood experts over the course of a few months is a testament to how effective and important it is for devs to have studied these techniques first before utilising them
if anything, the Matrix demo showed that filmmakers are more competent at creating visually amazing games than actual game developers
what the industry lacks right now to revolutionise graphics is gaming equivalents of creative visionaries such as Roger Deakins
any time we got close to groundbreaking advancements in visuals was when devs tried to learn from Hollywood
there's no shame in it. top devs use movies and YT videos as references to enhance their visuals, sound, and physics all the time [e.g. ND concept artists and animators used movies and YT videos of injuries and fights for lighting and animating [respectively]]
give this dev diary a watch to understand the intentionally-applied cinematic techniques [such as lens dirt/flare/ texturing/dramatic lighting volumetaric fog,etc] involved in creating a visually mindblowing game such as The Order 1886
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I dont buy it. Theres no fucking way thats what the finished product will look like.
There most likely will be a downgrade but not that much of one.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think this is spot on. IIRC, the matrix demo was made in collaboration with Weta Digital, probably the most talented CG house out there right now. They just made the best looking movie ever made in Avatar 2, and I was honestly blown away by their cg in the Justice League Snydercut.
I remember watching a video of Jason Rubin, the former founder of Naughty dog, in around 2005. He was talking about how he had to go and hire hollywood artists in order to stay relevant. They knew even back then that they needed top quality artists, but I fear the gaming industry is now losing those guys to hollywood after the streaming boom. Lets face it, Netflix, Disney and HBO pay better.
I mean the cutscene quality in the Matrix demo is just leagues ahead of what Rockstar and ND did last gen.
The gaming industry is just coasting right now despite finally having access to hardware that can make astounding visuals. The 60-40% split sony is doing in favor of GaaS games for their first party studios is going to result in even more awful looking fortnite clones we saw last Wednesday.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
The Hellblade II reveal is by far the most impressive thing I’ve seen so far this gen even more so than the Matrix demo but even in a cut scene last time they showed it I’d say it was downgraded versus the reveal.
I expected all AAA character models to look as good as that reveal haha!
ChiefDada
Member
I think this is spot on. IIRC, the matrix demo was made in collaboration with Weta Digital, probably the most talented CG house out there right now. They just made the best looking movie ever made in Avatar 2, and I was honestly blown away by their cg in the Justice League Snydercut.
I remember watching a video of Jason Rubin, the former founder of Naughty dog, in around 2005. He was talking about how he had to go and hire hollywood artists in order to stay relevant. They knew even back then that they needed top quality artists, but I fear the gaming industry is now losing those guys to hollywood after the streaming boom. Lets face it, Netflix, Disney and HBO pay better.
I mean the cutscene quality in the Matrix demo is just leagues ahead of what Rockstar and ND did last gen.
The gaming industry is just coasting right now despite finally having access to hardware that can make astounding visuals. The 60-40% split sony is doing in favor of GaaS games for their first party studios is going to result in even more awful looking fortnite clones we saw last Wednesday.
That second gif does not look good period. And the first is only marginally better. The assets are so detached from the environment it sticks out like a sore thumb.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
I think this is spot on. IIRC, the matrix demo was made in collaboration with Weta Digital, probably the most talented CG house out there right now. They just made the best looking movie ever made in Avatar 2, and I was honestly blown away by their cg in the Justice League Snydercut.
I remember watching a video of Jason Rubin, the former founder of Naughty dog, in around 2005. He was talking about how he had to go and hire hollywood artists in order to stay relevant. They knew even back then that they needed top quality artists, but I fear the gaming industry is now losing those guys to hollywood after the streaming boom. Lets face it, Netflix, Disney and HBO pay better.
I mean the cutscene quality in the Matrix demo is just leagues ahead of what Rockstar and ND did last gen.
The gaming industry is just coasting right now despite finally having access to hardware that can make astounding visuals. The 60-40% split sony is doing in favor of GaaS games for their first party studios is going to result in even more awful looking fortnite clones we saw last Wednesday.
Great post and God damn it Sony's gaas push is THE worst direction they could've gone in for us graphics/single player lovers.
Jim Ryan. Cut throat business man. I blame it all on this guy taking the helm when it comes to Sony.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Graphics need to be looked at in their entirety. The high speed traversal is great but so what if they're using a next gen feature if it doesn't do enough to contribute to overall visuals. Rt reflections are great for this game but they're clearly not enough to sell it as a next gen looking game.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Great fucking post!
rofif
Can’t Git Gud
That sweet motion blur. You can feel the speed.I think this is spot on. IIRC, the matrix demo was made in collaboration with Weta Digital, probably the most talented CG house out there right now. They just made the best looking movie ever made in Avatar 2, and I was honestly blown away by their cg in the Justice League Snydercut.
I remember watching a video of Jason Rubin, the former founder of Naughty dog, in around 2005. He was talking about how he had to go and hire hollywood artists in order to stay relevant. They knew even back then that they needed top quality artists, but I fear the gaming industry is now losing those guys to hollywood after the streaming boom. Lets face it, Netflix, Disney and HBO pay better.
I mean the cutscene quality in the Matrix demo is just leagues ahead of what Rockstar and ND did last gen.
The gaming industry is just coasting right now despite finally having access to hardware that can make astounding visuals. The 60-40% split sony is doing in favor of GaaS games for their first party studios is going to result in even more awful looking fortnite clones we saw last Wednesday.
(not joking, I love good motion blur)
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Despite the downgrade, I consider Hellblade 2 to be one of the most next gen looking game out there.
Just going off of trailers released so far, knowing full well they will be downgraded, Id rank my top 5 as follows:
1) Avatar
2) Hellblade 2
3) Silent Hill 2
4) Ark 2 - Vin Diesel game. Yes i know, but that latest trailer was a realtime cutscene and looked absolutely insane. It's a MS timed exclusive so we should see it at the show.
5) Unrecord - I'd put this at the top if I thought this was real. yes, he showed the game in the UE5 editor but im not buying it based on the gun animations alone. Still, it looks light years ahead of PS4.5 games like demon souls, plagues tale, ratchet, and forza 8. (sorry turk)
Negotiator101
Member
I don't consider Avatar at all if I'm honest, we shall see if it ends up looking like that. HB2 we will see soon but I'm expecting improved graphics from the last gameplay demo and that was very impressive (the effects work especially the fire are ridiculous).
You're very hard to please graphically speaking, anything you're excited to see more of?
Those veins look just like a normal map. Why would they be missing on Series S?
Negotiator101
Member
It's highly likely this is muscle deformation being performed on the GPU, given the Series S doesn't have a powerful GPU that's the end result unfortunately.
I betcha when there is criticism devs amongst themselves go "it's just a matter of time before everyone forgets and moves on. We'll be fine". Another dev jumps in and says "people will get accustomed, don't worry guys. We will normalize this" then proceed to release subpar crap. The subpar crap will be normalized so badly it will be praised and called artwork. The only work of art here is the devs' cunningness and the 3D chess they play with people. Gotta give it to them.
ChiefDada
Member
I assumed the muscle deformation was ML/GPU based as we've seen in other recent games and UE demos, but ultimately idk. Tangentially, I think you and others here tend to downplay features and minimize what it takes for them to be implemented.
ChiefDada
Member
Yeah, but that's just your opinion; one of many. Fast traversal that isn't capped to what can be processed in the distance has always been the holy grail for me. If some of you don't appreciate how that changes the visual presentation and the deeper immersion it allows for, then that's absolutely fine. But what's not ok imo is accusing those who do appreciate and equate to current gen defining as being an apologist for a developer. I made a Burning Shores thread prior to release where my top request as a current gen only game was for speedy traversal/minimal pop-in/immense draw distance (I think all are deeply interconnected). This characteristic has always been a quality I associate with current gen long before the SM2 trailer arrived.
The closest thing I get to a definition of what qualifies as current gen from most here is a list of games that aren't current gen, which is very lazy (ironic) and provides no opportunity to set standards and consistency for analysis within this thread.
Yeah, looking at it more closely it's more than a simple texture effect.
Only downplay features that are poorly used relative to their cost, like RT reflections in SM2 or some that are just stupid like native 4K.
Did people need a detailed list of specs to notice the generational difference between MGS1 and MGS2, between God of War 2 and God of War 3, between Uncharted 3 and Uncharted 4, etc...?
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