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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen

S

SABRE220

Member
SlimySnake said:
alfred-pennyworth-batman.gif



There will be growing pains I bet, but I doubt it will be as bad as frostbite for a few reasons.

Decima has seen several different genres of games already. Killzone Shadow Fall was a linear first person shooter. Until Dawn was an adventure game with really high quality character model for its time. Horizon and Death Stranding are a third person open world game. Unlike Bioware and other EA sports studios, Sony studios make the same open world third person cinematic action games.

I am with you on lack of ambition and the desire to set industry standards. Spiderman, GT7, TLOU Part 1 and GOW Ragnorak support your claim. However, it's no surprise that ND, Bluepoint and Sucker Punch and have now gone 3 years without showing their games. Back in the day 3 years was the total dev time. Now 3 years isnt enough good enough to get a small teaser let alone a gameplay demo? Why do you think that is?

I think they HAVE to be reworking their engines and thats where the bottleneck is. We know what happened with Bend, they had a bunch of projects cancelled, but ND and Sucker Punch shouldve begun their next project immediately. Unless they were doing R&D for the last 3 years for new tech like nanite, lumen or even RTGI. Bluepoint made Demon Souls in 2.5 years. Its been almost 3 years since DS came out and we know nothing about them.

I highly doubt everyone got lazy these past few years lol. I have a feeling that everyone is playing chicken right now. Its the calm before the storm. No one wants to reveal anything before GTA6 because they dont want to get shown up by Rockstar. However, lots of A tier studios are working on UE5. CD project, Crystal Dynamics, Coalition Games, Kingdom Hearts 4 are all using UE5 and they are due to show their games just like Sony studios who have been MIA since 2020. Surely, matrix graphics are around the corner. Take2 said GTA6 is coming before the end of next fiscal year so holiday 2024 should be it. We are in the end game now.
Click to expand...
I see you got some of your optimism back slimy. Honestly I truly hope you're right but sadly I think looking at the stuff nearly halfway into this gen and the dev's responses to criticism Im going to keep my hopes in check. I mean insomniac is still acting like their current build equals the target render which was "Real time" they just blatantly deny the discrepancy and the media and fanboys enforce this...thats the precedent this gen really. Also looking at the shit state factions is in and ND's response to their TLOU remake acting like it's a visual masterpiece and journalists and fans enforcing it.....also looking at the gta6 leak which kind of confirmed gta6 will be crossgen...I dont know man matrix visuals seems like a dream scenario sadly.
 
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E

Edder1

Gold Member
SABRE220 said:
I see you got some of your optimism back slimy. Honestly I truly hope you're right but sadly I think looking at the stuff nearly halfway into this gen and the dev's responses to criticism Im going to keep my hopes in check. I mean insomniac is still acting like their current build equals the target render which was "Real time" they just blatantly deny the discrepancy and the media and fanboys enforce this...thats the precedent this gen really. Also looking at the shit state factions is in and ND's response to their TLOU remake acting like it's a visual masterpiece and journalists and fans enforcing it.....also looking at the gta6 which kind of confirmed gta6 will be crossgen...I dont know man matrix visuals seems like a dream scenario sadly.
Click to expand...
The problem is for every one of us there's 3 BlahBlahChiefs out there on internet hyping up these mid tier level visuals, hence why we aren't seeing change in approach. One doesn't have to look far, on this very sub Spiderman threads are full of people gashing over these cross gen looking games. Nothing is gonna change when things are this way, especially when you have the likes of John from Digital Foundry joining in and waxing lyricals about some of theese mediocre looking games. I remember him being one of the reasonable ones back in the day, but the mob has slowly bullied him and the rest of DF into being less critical and being more positive (just for the sake of it). It's a sad state of affairs.
 
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SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
SABRE220 said:
I see you got some of your optimism back slimy. Honestly I truly hope you're right but sadly I think looking at the stuff nearly halfway into this gen and the dev's responses to criticism Im going to keep my hopes in check. I mean insomniac is still acting like their current build equals the target render which was "Real time" they just blatantly deny the discrepancy and the media and fanboys enforce this...thats the precedent this gen really. Also looking at the shit state factions is in and ND's response to their TLOU remake acting like it's a visual masterpiece and journalists and fans enforcing it.....also looking at the gta6 which kind of confirmed gta6 will be crossgen...I dont know man matrix visuals seems like a dream scenario sadly.
Click to expand...
I think Insomniac is just a workman studio. We shouldnt be judging anything from the output of what is effectively sony's cod studio. They are content with pushing out games every 2 years and more power to them. We need B games like that, but sadly it will always come at the expense of something. In insomniac's case, the visuals impress but feel dated at the same time. the gameplay is polished, fun and enjoyable but stale and derivative. It Takes Two completely obliterates Ratchet in terms of game design, mechanics, and just sheer ingenuity.

What gives me hope is that we have not seen next gen only games from A tier studios like ND, SSM, Rockstar, GG, Crystal Dynamics, CD Project Red, Sucker Punch, etc. GTA6 might indeed look cross gen but I am guessing it will impressive like cybperunk does despite being a glorified last gen title. I think they will pump up the asset quality and lighting from Red Dead 2, and while it might not look as good as the Matrix, i think they will come very close to matching if not exceeding cyberpunk which looks magnificent at times. But I doubt Crystal Dynamics has taken the last 3 years to make a very cross gen looking game on UE5. Same goes for CD Project who chose UE5 very early on in Witcher 4's development where the studios we've seen embrace UE5 did it mid development.

I look at what studios have accomplished in 2023, and its given me hope that better studios will eventually turn up. After all, the FF16 team is basically an MMO dev. Their last game being a PS3 mmo which explains why FF16 looks like a PS3 game at times lol. For them to produce those visuals is rather impressive. Same goes for Behtesda which has always been a gen behind, but is now producing some stunning visuals. Respawn's first game last gen was Titanfall, a very cross gen looking game. So its no surprise, Star Wars looks cross gen. Though it also has its moments. I think if these studios can get this much out of these consoles, it stands to reason that the A tier studios will do a lot better.

If KojiPro phones in a cross gen looking DS2 and Rockstar comes out looking worse than Cyberpunk while Crystal Dynamics can only manage Immortals graphics then yes, lets just call this gen off.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Edder1 said:
The problem is for every one of us there's 3 BlahBlahChiefs out there on internet hyping up these mid tier level visuals, hence why we aren't seeing change in approach. One doesn't have to look far, on this very sub Spiderman threads are full of people gashing over these cross gen looking games. Nothing is gonna change when things are this way, especially when you have the likes of John from Digital Foundry joining in and waxing lyricals about some of theese mediocre looking games. I remember him being one of the reasonable ones back in the day, but the mob has slowly bullied him and the rest of DF into being less critical and being more positive (just for the sake of it). It's a sad state of affairs.
Click to expand...
To DF's credit, they did mention that spiderman 2 looks like Spiderman 1. They didnt go all out and trash Insomniac but they didnt pretend to be impressed. If John gets the review though then we are looking at 50 minutes of him slagging off the visuals just because he doesnt want fanboys harassing him on twitter.

Honestly, and this is something people touched on in the other DF thread just today, but John and DF need to stop pixel counting and focus more on the comparison between other games. We have way too many meme comparisons between Starfield and Cyberpunk, but I would like professionals like DF to do some less disingenuous comparisons between games to point out what one game does better. And it doesnt even have to be criticism. It could simply be an academic comparison between two engines, two design philosophies, artistic choices etc.

It's pointless to compare TLOU part 1 to the PS3 version. of course it will look better. The real comparison wouldve been between TLOU2 and TLOU remake. A better comparison wouldve been comparing it to other graphics showpieces from this gen like Horizon FW, Cyberpunk, and Ratchet. Compare it to Demon Souls to show just how much better remakes can look. Spending 50 minutes comparing a PS5 to a PS3 game is idiotic.

The discourse around graphics nowadays is absolutely down in the gutter. Gamers dont know the difference between CPU bound games and throw a fit when a game doesnt ship with 60 fps. They dont realize that comparing a linear game to an open world game is maybe not ideal. This is where DF should come in and elevate the discussion a bit. Cyberpunk Path Tracing comparisons are fine, but can we also compare cybperunk to games with better base lighting as well? Who gives a shit if the PS5 version is 1512p and XSX version is 1620p with identical framerates? At best, mention it at the start of the video and move on to actually dissecting what the games do well and where they lack compared to other games.

I honestly would love to see FF16 vs FF7 Rebirth vs FF15 comparisons from DF. Wont attract fanboys or wrath of Publishers so John shouldnt fear much.
 
GymWolf

GymWolf

Member
SlimySnake said:
To DF's credit, they did mention that spiderman 2 looks like Spiderman 1. They didnt go all out and trash Insomniac but they didnt pretend to be impressed. If John gets the review though then we are looking at 50 minutes of him slagging off the visuals just because he doesnt want fanboys harassing him on twitter.

Honestly, and this is something people touched on in the other DF thread just today, but John and DF need to stop pixel counting and focus more on the comparison between other games. We have way too many meme comparisons between Starfield and Cyberpunk, but I would like professionals like DF to do some less disingenuous comparisons between games to point out what one game does better. And it doesnt even have to be criticism. It could simply be an academic comparison between two engines, two design philosophies, artistic choices etc.

It's pointless to compare TLOU part 1 to the PS3 version. of course it will look better. The real comparison wouldve been between TLOU2 and TLOU remake. A better comparison wouldve been comparing it to other graphics showpieces from this gen like Horizon FW, Cyberpunk, and Ratchet. Compare it to Demon Souls to show just how much better remakes can look. Spending 50 minutes comparing a PS5 to a PS3 game is idiotic.

The discourse around graphics nowadays is absolutely down in the gutter. Gamers dont know the difference between CPU bound games and throw a fit when a game doesnt ship with 60 fps. They dont realize that comparing a linear game to an open world game is maybe not ideal. This is where DF should come in and elevate the discussion a bit. Cyberpunk Path Tracing comparisons are fine, but can we also compare cybperunk to games with better base lighting as well? Who gives a shit if the PS5 version is 1512p and XSX version is 1620p with identical framerates? At best, mention it at the start of the video and move on to actually dissecting what the games do well and where they lack compared to other games.

I honestly would love to see FF16 vs FF7 Rebirth vs FF15 comparisons from DF. Wont attract fanboys or wrath of Publishers so John shouldnt fear much.
Click to expand...
Dude they get the majority of clicks from console warriors that foam at the mouth waiting to post obese dj another one gif when their prefered platform win a comparison by half a frame.

They are not interested in real journalism because it doesn't get nowhere near the same amount of traffic, why even bother.
 
ChiefDada

ChiefDada

Member
SlimySnake said:
To DF's credit, they did mention that spiderman 2 looks like Spiderman 1. They didnt go all out and trash Insomniac but they didnt pretend to be impressed. If John gets the review though then we are looking at 50 minutes of him slagging off the visuals just because he doesnt want fanboys harassing him on twitter.
Click to expand...

Yeah I saw that. It's obvious they were butthurt over not having access to the preview build. Lesser known youtubers were selected over them and they were salty about it. But 100% chance they're playing it now and possibly have a tech breakdown with Mike Fitzgerald from Insomniac core tech team, like they did with Ratchet.

SlimySnake said:
I honestly would love to see FF16 vs FF7 Rebirth vs FF15 comparisons from DF. Wont attract fanboys or wrath of Publishers so John shouldnt fear much.
Click to expand...

FF7 Rebirth is a few steps above FF16. Although I prefer the dark, cinematic FF16 aesthetic there's no denying FF7R is graphically better. The fact that DF couldn't definitively figure out what was CG and what wasn't should tell us all something. Once Spiderman 2 has released FF7R is the next graphics campaign I'll be promoting. You all have been warned.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
GymWolf said:
Dude they get the majority of clicks from console warriors that foam at the mouth waiting to post obese dj another one gif when their prefered platform win a comparison by half a frame.

They are not interested in real journalism because it doesn't get nowhere near the same amount of traffic, why even bother.
Click to expand...
Just when I start to get hopeful about next gen and the state of gaming journalism, you guys bring me down to earth. thanks a lot.
 
SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
ChiefDada said:
Yeah I saw that. It's obvious they were butthurt over not having access to the preview build. Lesser known youtubers were selected over them and they were salty about it. But 100% chance they're playing it now and possibly have a tech breakdown with Mike Fitzgerald from Insomniac core tech team, like they did with Ratchet.



FF7 Rebirth is a few steps above FF16. Although I prefer the dark, cinematic FF16 aesthetic there's no denying FF7R is graphically better. The fact that DF couldn't definitively figure out what was CG and what wasn't should tell us all something.
Click to expand...

Honestly, that FF16 vs FF10 CG video DF did is more of what I want. Though i wouldve preferred some more comparisons to FF7 and FF15 as well.

ChiefDada said:
Once Spiderman 2 has released FF7R is the next graphics campaign I'll be promoting. You all have been warned.
Click to expand...
Fuck.
 
S

Schmendrick

Member
ChiefDada said:
FF7 Rebirth is a few steps above FF16. Although I prefer the dark, cinematic FF16 aesthetic there's no denying FF7R is graphically better. The fact that DF couldn't definitively figure out what was CG and what wasn't should tell us all something. Once Spiderman 2 has released FF7R is the next graphics campaign I'll be promoting. You all have been warned.
Click to expand...
Difference is that you might actually have a point with that one. Some parts of what we've seen so far looked reaaally good... Others not so much, but we'll see.
 
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Lethal01

Lethal01

Member
ResetEraVetVIP said:
And enough geometry, close to CGI.
Click to expand...

CGI from 2000? for sure, still nothing coming anywhere close to the CGI we we've been getting in the last 10+ years. Best we got on Console is maybe the Matrix demo and even on a 4090 it can't be up to the level of CGI specifically trying to look like games.

.
 
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Lethal01

Lethal01

Member
Schmendrick said:
Difference is that you might actually have a point with that one. Some parts of what we've seen so far looked reaaally good... Others not so much, but we'll see.
Click to expand...
Wow really, I'm more excited for that game than anyone and it's not blowing me away compared to spiderman. Frontiers of pandora has way better foliage and enviromental lighting, I just vastly, mountainously prefer the style of FF7
 
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SlimySnake

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
ChiefDada said:
Are you really proud of all that shimmering? So much for draw distance. Nah, that ain't next gen.
Click to expand...
thats not shimmering. thats artifacts from me capturing it from shrinking the youtube player down to save on file size. you can see it in all of my gifs because i dont like to create giant 30 mb gifs.

But here is a bigger version of that gif. No shimmering other than 1 building far to the right which is a bug that affects certain type of buildings in the demo. Every other buiulding, lamp post, fire escape ladders are all pristine.

UI1FVr2.gif



And that comparison is bullshit for two reasons. one, its a bullshot from insomniac and two, its buildings up close while the buildings in the matrix screenshot are literally miles away.

Matrix has way better asset quality on buildings thanks in large part to nanite which is designed to handle distant LODs much more gracefully. You can see it in this very gif. Spiderman has these cardboard cutout feeling buildings that look a gen behind. Who cares if they have better distant building cutouts when they dont look nearly as good up close? I literally posted these just yesterday.

FW5BSH9.jpg

IcYEskg.jpg


It's great that insomniac is able to push these draw distances and native 4k resolutions. But it clearly comes at a cost. Lower LOD buildings and assets, worse lighting, and much more. Comparing it to the Matrix which is literally a next gen benchmark and calling it last gen is simply ridiculous.
 
C

CGNoire

Member
SlimySnake said:
This shot was retweeted by Alex. Looks straight up CG. Apparently during gameplay too. paused to take photomode screenshots.

F7NHa1WXAAABqgJ

F7NqJydWoAAWJeN


F7NcWJqW0AAr0qZ


Unfortunately, characters dont always look that good. I just saw this in benchmark king's optimized settings video and had to take a screenshot.

7Wosh0B.jpg
Click to expand...
Jesus Christ that Idris shot is awesome.
 
C

CGNoire

Member
SlimySnake said:
thats not shimmering. thats artifacts from me capturing it from shrinking the youtube player down to save on file size. you can see it in all of my gifs because i dont like to create giant 30 mb gifs.

But here is a bigger version of that gif. No shimmering other than 1 building far to the right which is a bug that affects certain type of buildings in the demo. Every other buiulding, lamp post, fire escape ladders are all pristine.

UI1FVr2.gif



And that comparison is bullshit for two reasons. one, its a bullshot from insomniac and two, its buildings up close while the buildings in the matrix screenshot are literally miles away.

Matrix has way better asset quality on buildings thanks in large part to nanite which is designed to handle distant LODs much more gracefully. You can see it in this very gif. Spiderman has these cardboard cutout feeling buildings that look a gen behind. Who cares if they have better distant building cutouts when they dont look nearly as good up close? I literally posted these just yesterday.

FW5BSH9.jpg

IcYEskg.jpg


It's great that insomniac is able to push these draw distances and native 4k resolutions. But it clearly comes at a cost. Lower LOD buildings and assets, worse lighting, and much more. Comparing it to the Matrix which is literally a next gen benchmark and calling it last gen is simply ridiculous.
Click to expand...
Dude your talking to a brickwall.
 
H

hussar16

Member
SlimySnake said:
thats not shimmering. thats artifacts from me capturing it from shrinking the youtube player down to save on file size. you can see it in all of my gifs because i dont like to create giant 30 mb gifs.

But here is a bigger version of that gif. No shimmering other than 1 building far to the right which is a bug that affects certain type of buildings in the demo. Every other buiulding, lamp post, fire escape ladders are all pristine.

UI1FVr2.gif



And that comparison is bullshit for two reasons. one, its a bullshot from insomniac and two, its buildings up close while the buildings in the matrix screenshot are literally miles away.

Matrix has way better asset quality on buildings thanks in large part to nanite which is designed to handle distant LODs much more gracefully. You can see it in this very gif. Spiderman has these cardboard cutout feeling buildings that look a gen behind. Who cares if they have better distant building cutouts when they dont look nearly as good up close? I literally posted these just yesterday.

FW5BSH9.jpg

IcYEskg.jpg


It's great that insomniac is able to push these draw distances and native 4k resolutions. But it clearly comes at a cost. Lower LOD buildings and assets, worse lighting, and much more. Comparing it to the Matrix which is literally a next gen benchmark and calling it last gen is simply ridiculous.
Click to expand...
The cutboard cut out look is because the lighting and shaders are subpar.
 
ChiefDada

ChiefDada

Member
CGNoire said:
Theres is literal quotes on twitter where Insominac Devs mention that SM2 uses Billboards for distant buildings.
Click to expand...

Ok so bring the quote in the thread. They only ever used 2d billboards for non playable areas in the first game so this would be a weird quote from an Insomniac dev. The entire playable area from NY financial district to Harlem had 3d geometry for all buildings.
 
ChiefDada

ChiefDada

Member
SlimySnake said:
It's great that insomniac is able to push these draw distances and native 4k resolutions. But it clearly comes at a cost. Lower LOD buildings and assets, worse lighting, and much more. Comparing it to the Matrix which is literally a next gen benchmark and calling it last gen is simply ridiculous.
Click to expand...

You keep using these two rough draft, work-in-progress screenshots lol. I know you know these exact locations will not look like this in the final game. And since you already know this, why use as comparison?
 
GymWolf

GymWolf

Member
SlimySnake said:
This shot was retweeted by Alex. Looks straight up CG. Apparently during gameplay too. paused to take photomode screenshots.

F7NHa1WXAAABqgJ

F7NqJydWoAAWJeN


F7NcWJqW0AAr0qZ


Unfortunately, characters dont always look that good. I just saw this in benchmark king's optimized settings video and had to take a screenshot.

7Wosh0B.jpg
Click to expand...
The president look videogame-y as shit, no idea why they didn't gave her a better face.
 
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S

Schmendrick

Member
Lethal01 said:
Wow really, I'm more excited for that game than anyone and it's not blowing me away compared to spiderman. Frontiers of pandora has way better foliage and enviromental lighting, I just vastly, mountainously prefer the style of FF7
Click to expand...
There were a few snippets of greatness in there,a lot of mediocrity, too, ofc. I'll reserve my judgement until we've seen more of it.
 
ChiefDada

ChiefDada

Member
Whitecrow said:
Dude, if you think Spiderman tech is better than UE5, I'm not gonna waste any effort on explaining you anything.
Click to expand...

But I didn't ask you about the tech. My questions were simple:

You said:

Whitecrow said:
Matrix demo pisses all over Spiderman.
Click to expand...

And I asked if that included the areas of:

ChiefDada said:
resolution? Framerate stability? RT reflection quality? Draw distance?
Click to expand...

Remember, "I was wrong" is a perfectly acceptable answer, despite the tendencies of this thread.
 
rofif

rofif

Can’t Git Gud
ChiefDada said:
Lol, what??? No.

Qkxe2Uu.jpg





If it's in-game, then how is it a bullshot? Do y'all even know the definition/history of the word. Judging by this thread's usage, I'll assume y'all don't. Here you go:

Click to expand...

lol the 1st one is absolutely cgi marketing material.
2nd one looks like a photo mode + better AA.

Bullshot is when you show a game with impossible settings. 2nd image is just that. First image is not real
 
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