Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That dev should've been honest about the fact that rt gi and rt reflections together on ps5 for spidey sequel would be impossible
Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
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That dev should've been honest about the fact that rt gi and rt reflections together on ps5 for spidey sequel would be impossible
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
We have not seen a single game tho that has rt gi and rt reflections together on console ...unless you're considering Unreal 5's solution which is software based
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Metro DOES NOT have RT reflections on console btw only gi
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is true, but Lumen has two modes, hardware based lumen and software based lumen. first ps5 demo and robocop use software lumen. matrix uses hardware lumen.
performance difference on pc is around 20% when switching between software and hardware lumen.
Epic said that they have improved the performance of the matrix demo two fold. so eventually, you will see hardware rt and reflections in a console game. had fortnite and metro been 30 fps games, you wouldve seen hardware based rtgi and rt reflections on consoles.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Eh. The PC version of matrix is running the same engine. Epic has said that it is not using a lot of vram or really fast ssds to stream in the nanite data. the whole point of virtualized geometry is to not having to load large assets which is why they were able to reduce pop-in. iirc, they told Alex that its around 250 MBps of data streaming.
If we take insomniac's word for it, and they cant do realtime GI (not rtgi, simply realtime software based GI) because of higher traversal speeds then its safe to assume that they need to switch to something akin to nanite to load their assets. They also said that 30% of the 90 GB disc space is for lighting data since it was prebaked. my guess is that they have to load that in as well as the building assets and something had to give. if they switch to realtime GI then it would free up vram allowing them to stream in higher quality data. or they can implement mesh shaders and reduce gpu cost that way.
regardless, they didnt do any of that lmao. even starfield uses realtime GI. its not hardware accelerated, but its realtime. And you can see that in the vram usage. it is really low and the game has some stunning interior modeling. one has to wonder if its because the vram no longer has to hold that massive lighting data insomniac talked about.
arkhamguy123
Banned
Yeeeeah but cmon, matrix demo on console still blows Spiderman out of the water
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
True true
Would hope it has lumen and rt reflections when dropping to 60% of 1080p (648p). According to the settings posted in the df thread xbx lower bound is 75% of 1080p with a texture setting off and ps5 is 60%, I can't believe we are making excuses for this but whatever. Yeh the screenshots and 360p gifs look great, then you play and hit 50fps at 648p and it's like does my tv need viagra. Yeh we are in this "post native resolution" narrative and that's fine, but I really think 1080p should be the base at worst. They can dial down heavy post/alpha/particle effects more if they want but using upscaling to do that and taking the rest of the image quality with it is not great for people without vision problems and is probably worse for those people actually. If you are one with bad vision chime in, are crazy soft games a problem?
Have you got a link to this interview or whatever its from? I've seen the performance lift in the matrix city map on pc with newer ue5 revisions but it's not double and it's still single core bound to hell and back which I think is a real problem on all platforms. Everything i've always seen refered to the new ue5 revision when talking about performance and never give an actual matrix or game metric, like with ue5.x we improved lumen software performance (that's made up but you get what i'm saying).
Msamy
Member
I don't think having both rt gi and rt reflections together are something impossible on current consoles and even if hardware have limits , developers can improve their tech use full software based RT solution like how robocop handle Lumen or they can use hybrid RT (hardware and software )solution which also very possible in current gen consoles but setting around said that you cannot use rt reflections and rt gi together when other game from AA developer do it is something I can't accept , also I am pretty sure that naughty dog next game , horizon 3 , ssm new game ,gtavi , gears 6 and death stranding 2 are gonna have both rt gi and reflections alongside other techs like mesh shading in current gen consoles
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Lethal01
Member
Irrelevant, he was saying that devs were claiming it's impossible and that they were saying that because they are lazy, that's the only thing I wanted to really address.
I can finally say a proper full-blown game has come close to The Matrix's visuals. Though I watched some clips of the game on YT the other day, which mainly took place indoors and it looked like a PS3 game. I'm guessing the game mainly shines in outdoor areas?Robocop is the best looking game of the year for me. It's shocking how good it looks.
GymWolf
Member
Yeah, indoors are inferior.
M1987
Member
No indoor areas look like a PS3 game
Matrix Awakens has no indoor areas to compare
Fly around and check out the interiors in the buildings, they are not too shabby!Matrix Awakens has no indoor areas to compare
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Indoors can look flat and amazing at times. my guess is due to the art style and 80s look of the game. I noticed the DF review had some stunning looking interiors and some really barebones ones. My guess is that it is likely due to the lack of budget. the tech is there, but not every studio can make every single room look amazing.
When they do put in the effort like in the police station, it looks fantastic because the asset quality and lighting is still next gen gen.
If I had the hardware I would like to that demo with my own eyes but Superman's traversal speed seems hella off in comparison to spider, like the city is moving around Superman.But spiderman 2 is next gen only so why does it look cross gen?
The lighting AND asset quality of buildings/cars in Matrix/Robocop is a generation ahead of spiderman 2.
And UE5 doesnt have an issue with doing realtime GI at faster speeds. If there is work needed for getting this level of visuals in a fast moving game like spiderman 2, a sony first party studio with 5 years in between sequels shouldve been able to get it done.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
No one is forcing people to play this in the 60 fps mode on $399 consoles. This is a 30 fps game with a 60 fps mode included to appease delusional gamers who want 60 fps in every next gen game even after the cross gen period is over.
Cant find the link where it says the performance has doubled, but UE5.3 release notes state that the performance of Hardware ray tracing on consoles has been improved because they were able to enable async compute on consoles. This was specific to consoles so maybe thats why you arent seeing a big improvement in the city sample demo.
In the era thread, i see that they are aiming to get 60 fps hardware lumen working on consoles with UE 5.4 by making it as performant as the software Lumen mode. I wonder if the robocop devs will recompile the game once 5.4 comes out and make at least the quality mode run with hardware lumen enabled.
Msamy
Member
In terms of graphics I don't like it I expect much more from rocksteady studios like what they did back with Arkham knights this game is next gen exclusive and have long time under development and is great example when a developer take easy way and don't spent any effort in terms of graphics.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Your post would have been fine as an opinion without the bolded bit, which is nothing more than lazy accusations.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Bought Robocop last night on ps5 after the DF video and seeing some of the screenshots posted of PS5 version in this thread and I'm having major buyers remorse. I'm not seeing what others are seeing as far as Unreal 5 and I can't get past the AA nature of this game.
Msamy
Member
What's lazy accusations ? Are you gonna defend what rocksteady did with that game ? , what I said is my opinion and I can't like those developers who make next gen games without spent any effort ( in terms of graphics) , people's like you who don't criticized those developers is actually the ones that gives those developers excuse to be lazy and make next gen games looks like last gen games in terms of graphics.Your post would have been fine as an opinion without the bolded bit, which is nothing more than lazy accusations.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
That looks pretty decent to me, especially with that video being only 1080p60. About as good as Spider-Man 2 visually if I'm honest, the buildings and everything have nice lod up close but you get grand views from above etc., with just a different, perhaps less well realized, art style (juvenile cartoon everything glows purple or other color stuff). I'm pleasantly surprised, it looks solid, not like Gotham Knights. But maybe it'll be be boring going around the city dealing with monsters and mobs. Still, for such a shitty and boring cast they had to (?) have this turned out much better than I expected, even though it doesn't really make much sense, Harley is basically Spider-Man going around swinging from her drone, has this been shown in other media? And maybe all characters will feel samey, they all shoot, they all have ways to get to vantage points or attack from above etc.
Also, why don't games have enemies with the agility the heroes show here? Behaviours and everything are super predictable and boring usually, of course I don't want single player game enemies to feel like basic multiplayer bots or anything, but why not give ya a work out moving around like that? If they do move around like that it's probably some scripted moment where you just wait for the right moment to counter or QTE or whatever 3 times over until it dies like we're still playing Zelda Ocarina of Time or Mario 64. Also Spider-Man should be way more agile crawling on walls/vents too.
Also I guess it's a cop out to once again have a walled off warzone a la Arkham Knight, hence no traffic and such a la Spider-Man or GTA, just the enemies spread around the given area for the most part, maybe some vehicles wandering like Arkham Knight, from what's shown in that video at least.
Also, why don't games have enemies with the agility the heroes show here? Behaviours and everything are super predictable and boring usually, of course I don't want single player game enemies to feel like basic multiplayer bots or anything, but why not give ya a work out moving around like that? If they do move around like that it's probably some scripted moment where you just wait for the right moment to counter or QTE or whatever 3 times over until it dies like we're still playing Zelda Ocarina of Time or Mario 64. Also Spider-Man should be way more agile crawling on walls/vents too.
Also I guess it's a cop out to once again have a walled off warzone a la Arkham Knight, hence no traffic and such a la Spider-Man or GTA, just the enemies spread around the given area for the most part, maybe some vehicles wandering like Arkham Knight, from what's shown in that video at least.
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Msamy
Member
I respect your opinion, but even I don't like spiderman 2 graphically and I criticized insomniac many times , for me spiderman 2 actually looks much better than sucide squad .
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Play in the 30 fps mode my man.
game drops to sub 720p in performance mode. might as well play ps3 games at that point.
Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
Again, juvenile cartoony style in place of actual NY or whatever aside, there aren't lower end detail levels or character models (faces animate better tbh but that's not gameplay). Also shitty youtube 1080p quality so maybe it will have tons of pop in/lod issues but it seems solid. Good views from far, no pop visible until she drops in the enemy's face there. Explosions/effects have their colored lighting reflect/affect various surfaces. Character faces look and animate really good. Purple lightning flashes affect the whole city. What's the obvious flaw, assuming high resolution and fps (PC maybe)?
I guess we'll see when there's some decent quality grabs but it's probably at least as good as Arkham Knight on those fronts, that one already wasn't far outside not having every other building a reflective glass surface skyscraper. If the city ends up being a boring repetitive mess that's no fun to go around and there's nothing other than more monsters and mobs outside the bosses then that's not really a technical issue but a game design issue (which Gotham Knights had plenty of both so, I'm not hyping). I'm not saying it's exceptional to begin with, just pretty decent/solid is what I've said.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Its fine. Decent draw distance. Good art design. What I would expect from a cross gen game. They couldve done a lot more but honestly, what do you expect from a game that started dev in 2015? This is why i keep warning everyone not to expect miracles from GTA6. That game started dev in 2013. It is not going to look like the matrix. best we can hope is spiderman 2 or something between spiderman 2 and cyberpunk.
I would love to see Spiderman 2 vs Suicide Squad comparisons. They both have a very similar art style and both support a very cross gen look. It will be interesting to see them side by side. I wouldnt be able to tell you what game looks better. both have decent lighting and draw distance. But both belong in the last gen space.
Msamy
Member
Aside from models or game style , the lighting is not good and I can't see any ray tracing effects also their are other next graphics features they didn't use in that gameplay video , i know 1080p youtube video is not good but I think that game previous 4k gameplay videos didn't look different .Again, juvenile cartoony style in place of actual NY or whatever aside, there aren't lower end detail levels or character models (faces animate better tbh but that's not gameplay). Also shitty youtube 1080p quality so maybe it will have tons of pop in/lod issues but it seems solid. Good views from far, no pop visible until she drops in the enemy's face there. Explosions/effects have their colored lighting reflect/affect various surfaces. Character faces look and animate really good. Purple lightning flashes affect the whole city. What's the obvious flaw, assuming high resolution and fps (PC)?
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Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
That Suicide Squad footage did the game zero favors visually... Minus the faces in cutscenes, which looked pretty good...It looks like a 2017 PS4 game through and through. They better get some 4K footage out ASAP, I dont know why the fuck they released such low quality footage. Like capture your game properly. Laziness.
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Msamy
Member
I really hope that gta vi want disappointed me I have big confidence in rockstar games and I trust them to show us true next gen visuals in the upcoming gta vi trailer , also I don't think it's not hard for the to have similar tech like Lumen and Nanite in their next iteration of rage engine .
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Alexios
Cores, shaders and BIOS oh my!
The classic costumes preorder bonus trailer is 4k60, lol. Mainly all you see is the characters naturally. I don't care enough to login for the age check to see past trailers, I thought the game would be mid and wasn't following it, didn't even go in its own threads, just checked here and it seemed decent.
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So I wasn't the only one caught by the praise. I should have got it on pc but because it was a short game I figured my nephews could borrow the ps5 over the xmas holidays and play it and spidey 2. I'm not playing it like that and not buying it a 2nd time on pc. I did learn my lesson about ue5 and current consoles though.
Async compute is not going to net you double performance, your using gaps in the render queue to try get closer to full saturation of the gpu. You would almost need the gpu to not be doing anything else to get that kind of increase. But even if it did you can't use async compute with nanite soooooo.
"Lumen uses Async Compute on consoles. This allows the GPU to overlap Lumen's work with the non-Nanite geometry pass and direct lighting pass. Additionally, Lumen can overlap with the Lumen Screen Probe Gather and Lumen Reflections passes."
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The problem is that they have 3000 devs working on one game. thats 3000 level designers, quest writers and artists all waiting on engineers to implement this stuff that has taken epic years to nail down. if the game really started development in 2018 then would the artists really have the carte le blanche to go nuts with asset quality? Did they have realtime gi (hardware or software) working that early in the dev cycle?
Like i said, suicide squad is proof that if development takes too long, you get stuck with last gen tech even if you are releasing 4 years into this gen. I fear thats exactly whats happened with gta6 which likely started development long before rdr2 came out in 2018. Jason said it started dev in 2014 and that means it was a ps4 title being developed with an HDD and a shitty jaguar CPU.
I hope to god im wrong but the best im hoping for is cyberpunk with some fancy npc and traffic simulations.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
By "started development" Im pretty sure they just meant stuff like story, mission design, characters, dialogue, etc. The actual tech stuff, most definitely after RDR2. We should be good to go for a real next gen banger
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Their 5.3 release notes point out that they have made performance improvements by turning on async compute by default for Hardware RT so its possible some of these devs didnt know about it? maybe thats why none of the games are using hardware lumens on consoles.
Apparently Alex was told by an Epic dev that they have improved the performance of Hardware Lumen by 80% with 5.3. This is second hand information from someone over at era who said this was posted on beyond3d but i am too tired to go digging up Alex's posts on that forum.
sncvsrtoip
roams the beyond3d forum so maybe he has seen that Alex post. Anyway, saw this on era. Looks like a dev comment. They are aiming to get HW lumen up to software lumen standards. it will come. only a matter of time.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Here. captured some footage for you. running at 4k 120 fps with GPU to spare. Max settings.
Looks good, but nothing like that jackfrags footage lol
BF 2042 looks way better than this with way bigger levels.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think its safe to say that uncharted 4 room that was posted a few days ago in this thread has been topped. Also, the second gif looks exactly like unrecord. That demo might not be fake after all.
It's worth keeping in mind when someone says lumen performance increased by X amount that probably is only looking at the cost of lumen only which takes like 4ms software and 8ms hardware of a frame. That's not going to move you from a total frame time of 33ms to 16ms. It's a real shame the current consoles havn't been hacked to pieces like the 360 so we could get in and change settings and not have to keep speculating.
On a seperate note I applaud you trying to keep gta6 expectations in check lol i'm not sure what to expect but it's gonna be wild either way.
arkhamguy123
Banned
what game is this?I think its safe to say that uncharted 4 room that was posted a few days ago in this thread has been topped. Also, the second gif looks exactly like unrecord. That demo might not be fake after all.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lol come on. Take a wild guess.
arkhamguy123
Banned
Robocop…?
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Still waiting on this games hit reactions to be topped. She reacts and places her hand on literally every stab wound as it happens, more of this shit, please devs. animation man
Good animations do way more for combat than a bunch of meaningless overly complicated flashy combos like DMC for me. THIS is impactful combat. Let me fucking feel that shit
Next gen korean sims interesting, thanks for sharing this.
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Hugare
Member
This game has the most boring and ugly lighting that I've seen in quite a while
Everything lacks contrast with some brown fog everywhere
"Oh but its a compressed Youtube video", man, give me 360p images of Alan Wake 2 and Cyberpunk with PT and I would still be able to tell you that they look awesome
Facial mocap is great, but lighting is terrible. Again, probably due to them ditching baked GI in order to have dynamic TOD.
Even when comparing it to AK from 2015 it looks underwhelming in terms of lighting. Character models are better than that, texture detail may also be better and etc., but overall the game doesnt look better in most places than a game from 2015 from the same devs
That penultimate image with Harley, look on the left at the building with a "T" on the front, see how it lacks any shadowing. It just glows.
It has an AO pass and thats it. Looks straight out of Fallout 4.
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Lumpyoatmeal
Member
Teleporter going up
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