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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
Does this really make sense? Why wouldn't Devs just optimise for the Xbox baseline which is itself MILES better than the old HDDs and therefore still a powerful RAM multiplier?
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Why did they cheap out so much on memory this gen?
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
Price, most probably.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
I think back then one gb of vram back then was like $6. So just going up to 20 GB wouldve cost them an extra $24. That might not sound like much, but sometimes thats their entire profit margin on the console. And the PS5 was being sold at a loss early on.
Besides, thanks to primitive and mesh shaders, and faster ssd streaming speeds, in theory you shouldnt need as much ram. at least not on console. most UE5 games dont even come close to the 10 GB limit on my PC. 12.5 GB on PS5 is fine. It's when you get to 8 GB on the Series S or 8GB on fancy next gen GPUs you want running games at max settings at 4k does the limit start to become an issue. Hogwarts is a memory hog on PC, but runs just fine on the ps5. There are ways around it now that werent before. Thats actually where devs might start to see some benefits of Cerny's IO later down the road. But none of the games so far are hitting vram limits on these consoles.
i wouldnt be surprised if sony keeps the ram the same on the PS5 Pro. RT typically adds an extra GB of vram to the mix, so if they are improving RT then they might push it up 1-2GB but i doubt they go the full 20GB. Right now the biggest bottleneck is the GPU performance whenever you add RT to the mix, and CPU performance for 60 fps modes which are performing exceptionally poor now that the cross gen period is over. That should be their biggest priority. RAM should be at the bottom of the list.
Lethal01
Member
These "no name studios" are making comparatively tiny games with tiny scopes shown running on 4090s.
It really isn't reflective having any more skill than the bigger studios.
To make a game 1.3x bigger you need 2x more people, the bigger the studio and the game the more inefficient things get.
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Audiophile
Member
What I'd hoped for back in 2020 when looking forward to a Spider-Man 2 or 3 on PS5; IRT the SSD+I/O...
"You swing into a modern day times square and from one button tap Spidey activates a time travel device on his wrist, within two seconds as you're mid air or mid swing you transport to the same spot in a 1920s times square and your modern suit morphs into a noir-style suit. As you barely even begin to fall you cast out a web and latch on to an old-timey building, continuing to traverse the city.
"
Eh..
"You swing into a modern day times square and from one button tap Spidey activates a time travel device on his wrist, within two seconds as you're mid air or mid swing you transport to the same spot in a 1920s times square and your modern suit morphs into a noir-style suit. As you barely even begin to fall you cast out a web and latch on to an old-timey building, continuing to traverse the city.
"
Eh..
GooseMan69
Member
I can’t believe how dated some of these games look…mainly referring to rise of ronin and dragons dogma 2. Looking at the previews and they look like mid gen PS4 games, and not even particularly good looking PS4 games. It’s unprecedented to have current gen consistently fail to outdo last gen. Something has gone seriously wrong. I understand these are lower budget titles but the bar needs to be higher.
Negotiator101
Member
I was going to say you're talking rubbish but I decided to watch some extended footage of DD2 just to have a reference point for the discussion and it seems you're largely correct. However it seems to me post Alan Wake 2, Avatar etc that this generation is at a turning point, where we'll start seeing actual next-gen like graphics more consistently.
HB2 is due soon and as a linear game its hard to compare it to an open world game but if one was to make a comparison with AW2 (one of the best looking games yet) we see a step up from that with HB2. As 2024/2025 games start getting announced and released I think this generation will start to impress and lets not forget GTA 6.
yamaci17
Member
because they're oldgen games. only difference is that most developers are now taking revenge on sony/microsoft for forcing them to spend tons of money, time and dedication on extreme optimization to hit 36-40 fps (for 30 fps stable operation) on 1.6 ghz jaguar cores. now they take their revenge by targeting the same 30 fps cpu bound on 3.6 ghz zen 2
i'd say most devs deserved it. ps4 and xbox one had no business having such a horrible CPU. sony and microsoft forced developers' hand. and now developers are returning the favor. it is only fair. if I were a dev myself and forced to spend years of cpu bound optimization to adhere to sony and microsoft's unnecessarily horrible cpu choice, I'd do the same with new gen consoles.
by forcing developers to do extreme unheard of cpu bound optimizations to hit 30 fps on 1.6 ghz jaguar cores that has lower IPC than some 2008 intel CPUs in 2020, sony and microsoft has caused developers to set unrealistic expectations from nextgen consoles and their CPUs. most people went like "oh they did this on 1.6 ghz jaguar core, what will they do on 3.6 ghz zen 2 cores!" when in reality they never should've done that on 1.6 ghz jaguar cores. they were forced to. they had no other option. it is not like you can target 15 fps or something. 30 fps is min. and even 30 fps is a colossal challenge for that cpu.
GymWolf
Member
This sound terrible tbh, sony and m being cheap and the devs being petty.
Where i work, if you have a vengeance you get fired.
yamaci17
Member
only sensible explanation imo. i'm not saying they're doing this explicitly. i'm just saying that probably most enginerrs that are responsible for end optimization are having fun targeting that sweet 30 fps on 3.6 ghz zen 2 IPC budget instead of 1.6 ghz jaguar core. they don't have any obligations to hit any arbitrary target people expect. game will still be a massive sale success. why should they even care...
look at how much ram modern apps use relentlessly and needlessly. remember the times where you had 512 mb ram and your browser and chat program were optimized to hell to use low amount of rams. nowadays a chrome can use more than 1 gb by merely existing without a tab for no reason at all. steam will easily use upwards of 0.5 gb vram, despite having the exact same functionality it had 10 years ago while only using 50 mb ram
at some point devs let it go and rely on peoples' hardware. in this case, people just had the wrong expectations. I too gave devs benefit of doubt and told myself "if they could squueze out these kind of open world games on 1.6 ghz jaguar core... what will they pull with 3.6 ghz zen 2". and here we are. no improvements or whatsoever in game design. same old old gen game design. yet almost 4x worse performance
technically zen 2 has more than 2.5x ipc than jaguar. then you have 2.2x core freq diff. easily 5.5x diff. then you have more robust architecture and decent SMT so double the threads. but even by single thread IPC standards, starfield or dragon dogma targeting 30 fps cpu bound on zen 2 3.6 ghz is hilarous considering the end result. where did the 5x performance go?
these games would run at 6-10 fps on ps4. a plague tale requiem would run at 5-10 fps on ps4 cpu bound even without rats. do you think that is really justified in any form or shape? it just isn't justified for me. it is clear that they're letting the cpu bound optimizations "go".
if a plague tale requiem build released on ps4 and run at 6 fps without even rat gimmick in a barebones setting, people would understand what I mean. (and yes, that gimmick is funny too. I get same cpu bound 40 fps with or without rats involved almost. it almost feels like developers used that as a scapegoat to make people think that the games' cpu boundness was justified. and it worked for most)
though now that they released 60 fps mode for ps5 and sx a plage tale requiem maybe hit 15 20 fps on ps4 though
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nemiroff
Gold Member
This is no rebuttal but DD1 also looked dated at release btw.. So some of it is about the developer, tools and architecture.
While not the sole perpetrator, keep in mind much of the processing power this generation has been eaten up by resolution and image quality, so that's a part of it. There's also some technical debt involved.
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Senua
Member
yamaci17
Member
mentality :
hmm i played this game on ps5, that upscales to 4k from 1200p with regular old TSR. I ran the same game at brute native 4k on the 3080 but they looked so similar that 3080 felt useless so I decided to play on PS5
hmm i tried playing this game on pc but I had to upscale from 1440p to 4K with bleeding edge upscaling tech DLSS to barely get 30 fps with path tracing. I refuse to play it because I can see what dlss is doing
(((
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12.5GB is fine if you accept the visual cuts that you will have to make in many cases.
I said it in other posts before, we have several games with texture loading and LOD issues, low quality assets...
Even a very well optimized game like Avatar has issues due to lack of memory.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
LOD issues are almost entirely due to lack of GPU processing power. You can have a massive 24 GB vram pool in a 4090 and still have pop-in in Avatar in unobtanium mode. Again, its the GPU that has to render all the foliage, and the geometry far into the distance.
nanite has virtually solved LOD pop-in anyway. mesh shaders and primitive shaders should also help minimize the vram load if devs bother implementing support for them in their engines. I say let devs figure out ways to get around the vram limitations because its a lot easier than finding extra tflops in a 10 tflops GPU.
What games did you see with texture loading, low quality assets and LOD issues if you dont mind me asking. Last year was a revelation to me with Star Wars, Starfield, Alan Wake 2 and Avatar featuring some really high quality assets. There are always some poorly optimized games.
Audiophile
Member
I really hope that virtualised micro-geometry becomes standard across more engines going into the next gen. Once you have that baseline performance to pull it off it seems like a no-brainer. Reduced load on storage, less work creating LODs for artist/devs and the elimination of LOD transitions for gamers. Rumours point to AC/Ubi already going that way with the Anvil Pipeline & AC: Red; fingers-crossed more will be making the jump.
Would be kinda odd to see top Sony studios still visibly swapping out models and wasting storage and artist time on their flagship titles while cheap asset swap UE5 titles on Steam are totally smooth in this regard.
The prospect of more bespoke implementations for engines/studios targeting a single spec and limited amount of titles could be quite interesting too. Unlike UE which has to cater to so many variables.
I expect the extended cross-gen period, performance concerns and the fact that Epic came out with a well-branded, marketable implementation early on all led to studios holding off. But as we approach the next generational transition, it just makes sense as the way forward in most cases.
Would be kinda odd to see top Sony studios still visibly swapping out models and wasting storage and artist time on their flagship titles while cheap asset swap UE5 titles on Steam are totally smooth in this regard.
The prospect of more bespoke implementations for engines/studios targeting a single spec and limited amount of titles could be quite interesting too. Unlike UE which has to cater to so many variables.
I expect the extended cross-gen period, performance concerns and the fact that Epic came out with a well-branded, marketable implementation early on all led to studios holding off. But as we approach the next generational transition, it just makes sense as the way forward in most cases.
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ProtoByte
Weeb Underling
Well, neither Team Ninja or Capcom are known to push tech on a graphical side.
But DD2 is egregious to me, because it doesn't look like enough of a gameplay upgrade after 2 gens.
ChiefDada
Member
Wait, are you suggesting the 4090 isn't powerful enough to resolve Avatar pop in? I don't think it's an issue of the gpu but rather an issue of the engine's capabilities. Developers have been alluding to this for some time now. GPUs are plenty capable in the area of triangle rasterization but the limitations have been centered around memory.
spartan30gr
Member
Bytheway this new poland studio is funding by epic for this projectFound some gameplay gifs on the steam page:
I hope its turn well
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
here is capcom last gen running Deep Down on the base PS4.
The game never came out, but looked absolutely insane. I am honestly not sure what happened to Capcom and most japanese devs in general. Why did they stagnate?
Western devs took their time but at least showed up last year. Even bethesda upped their game. But Japanese devs just couldnt care less.
Rise of Ronin looks atrocious but so did Nioh. It looked like a PS3 game.
I dont think we should be too worried about the state of the industry based on Rebirth, Dragons Dogma and Rise Of Ronin. Thats just japanese developers being japanese developers. I.e., refusing to get with the times and just focusing on gameplay. Which honestly is fine with me because Avatar, AW2 and Starfield were an absolute chore to play despite having next gen graphics. HB2 is next and we all know its a walking simulator.
I think the latter half of this year will surprise you guys. E3 alone will show us some stunning looking games, and the year will end with a bang with some unannounced games releasing that will look absolutely gorgeous. Maybe not matrix level but i think AW2 and Avatar will be topped this year.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Well, the GPU is mainly responsible for rendering the draw distance so yeah, its not powerful enough. There is 24 GB of vram in there and the game maxes out at 16GB in unobtanium mode and yet the pop-in while flying is still there. im sure the engine can be improved a la nanite in UE5 and developer techniques could be implemented to gracefully handle pop-in like insomniac does with spiderman 2 but draw distance is almost exclusively a GPU bottleneck.
I think people dont realize just how fast you could traverse in Avatar and just how massive the draw distance really is. Foliage is way harder to fake than buildings in Spiderman 2. Which is why Horizon had issues with pop-in while flying. Both Avatar and Horizon do not have pop-in while on foot because of the extra horsepower of the PS5. Watch the DF comparison, horizon on PS4 has foliage popping in as you simply run through an area whereas the PS5 has no pop-in whatsoever. So in that sense the 12.5GB of vram in the PS5 is enough because it can handle running through the most detailed and varied open world ever made with no pop-in whatsoever. Its only issues is when flying at high speeds.
LOD issues are a thing and pop-in another. You can have pop-in but not LOD issues because it works as intended.
When I said LOD issues I'm talking of level LOD not loading on the proper distance because of memory constraints.
You need GPU and CPU processing power to manage LOD, but you also need more memory to store the high detailed models.
Nanite only solves LOD management in mesh. Still needs virtual texture to drastically reduce memory budget on assets.
At the moment UE5 is the only one that provide the tech to better use the console memory.
From that list of games*:
*Both on quality modes running on launch Ps5 model (more memory intensive)
Star Wars Jedi Survivor:
Avatar Frontiers of Pandora:
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Those look atrocious. Didnt realize these games had such poor asset quality on consoles. Im surprised DF never mentioned it.LOD issues are a thing and pop-in another. You can have pop-in but not LOD issues because it works as intended.
When I said LOD issues I'm talking of level LOD not loading on the proper distance because of memory constraints.
You need GPU and CPU processing power to manage LOD, but you also need more memory to store the high detailed models.
Nanite only solves LOD management in mesh. Still needs virtual texture to drastically reduce memory budget on assets.
At the moment UE5 is the only one that provide the tech to better use the console memory.
From that list of games*:
*Both on quality modes running on launch Ps5 model (more memory intensive)
Star Wars Jedi Survivor:
Avatar Frontiers of Pandora:
Luipadre
Member
Its asset/texture loading issue in Jedi survivor. Sometimes it never loads the good assets, sometimes it took like a minute lol. That game is still a mess and i played it after the patches on PS5. If everything loads, it looks awesome, but its a technical mess
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
yeah, we have that on PC too but im assuming these were taken after the level slowly loaded in.
Luipadre
Member
Nah, the actual texture and asset quality was really good, but sadly it was broken a lot of times
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah, I was about to say but again, I play most of these games on PC with a dedicated vram pool. I just never saw DF bring up textures being worse on consoles ever since the gen started.
The few games I played on both PS5 and PC Callisto and RE4, and they didnt have any texture pop-in issues on consoles. Callisto and RE4 looked virtually identical on my PC though there was some pop-in after Capcom broke the game on PC. Console versions were actually better. Hogwarts and TLOU part 1 also had better texture streaming on consoles because of poor PC ports.
arkhamguy123
Banned
Insomniac… is there a reason you decided to omit more dynamic gameplay design and destruction simulations late in development? Would you care to share?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
The director of the game said that Sony made him cut a bunch of shit to ship on time. They werent happy with the overall quality of the game. Im guessing he was talking about polish. Dynamic destruction like this probably required a lot of QA and likely more time in the oven so they cut it out altogether.
the venom fight that took place indoors even though the concept art and ads showing it take place outdoors also hints at stuff like this being cut.
insomniac for some reason is treated like a b developer by sony. they are given 2 years to push out games even though other sony studios are allowed to take 5-7 years. bizarre.
Lethal01
Member
Isn't it obvious? scale, budget and time constraints.
Having to make this stuff performant and not glitchy in a large scale world would cause huge delays.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Downloaded Hogwarts to compare against FF7 and wow, they must have downgraded the shit out of this game because even at ultra settings, i have people popping in right in front of me. I get that they had to improve the CPU bottlenecks but you cant be loading in NPCs right as im walking towards them. What a shit show.
Anyway, its harder to compare to FF7 because of the art style being completely different but the game has the same last gen feel to it. Screens like this below made me think that it looked better than FF7 but they are a rarity. the vast majority of the time, the game looks just as dated as FF7. At least the cupcakes look better than the pastries in Rebirth, but both these games scream last gen in terms of asset quality and lighting.
I turned on RT shadows, reflections and AO and it made the game look worse somehow. Really made me appreciate Star wars. honestly, wtf is this. why is the light from outside illuminating the shop like there is a floodlight inside? most shops in hogsmead are like this with RT on. its like the game's baked lighting somehow breaks. its not this bad with rt off but its still very flat.
Anyway, its harder to compare to FF7 because of the art style being completely different but the game has the same last gen feel to it. Screens like this below made me think that it looked better than FF7 but they are a rarity. the vast majority of the time, the game looks just as dated as FF7. At least the cupcakes look better than the pastries in Rebirth, but both these games scream last gen in terms of asset quality and lighting.
I turned on RT shadows, reflections and AO and it made the game look worse somehow. Really made me appreciate Star wars. honestly, wtf is this. why is the light from outside illuminating the shop like there is a floodlight inside? most shops in hogsmead are like this with RT on. its like the game's baked lighting somehow breaks. its not this bad with rt off but its still very flat.
Kaiserstark
Member
We know from the Insomniac leak that the plan in 2020 for SM2 was a release in Holiday 2022 with a budget of $180m. They got a one year of delay and budget over $300m, i don't think we can say that they are treated like some b developper by Sony.
The budget for SM2 is already big and giving even more time to Insomniac and the game could end up with a budget around $400m, that would make no sense.
Lethal01
Member
I am on my knees begging for FF7 lighting to be as "Last gen" as this game, plz Square, gimme that last gen ray tracing.
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Interesting it seems to be getting a steam release, aw2 didn't.
arkhamguy123
Banned
Say something on YouTube that said insomniac DID actually go and improve the graphics in that last big update. Which would make sense cause I thought I was going crazy. But also not sure how credible what I saw was
Can anyone confirm or deny?
Can anyone confirm or deny?
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
It doesn't always look like that lol
GymWolf
Member
That fire effect looks...well...fire.
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mrqs
Member
Ugh. I hate the low-res upscaled looked on fast movement at the end. This is the worst thing to come out of this generation.
Bojji
Member
Looks nice but that ~31FPS average framerate : /
Giallo Corsa
Member
arkhamguy123
Banned
Who gives a fuck. That’s probably how it’s able to look nice
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Raise it to 60 and see how much uglier it looks.
Bojji
Member
Yeah but games are interactive and unlike movies 24fps isn't enough, and this game drops to framerate like that.
Different developers can do such things, HFW runs above 60FPS and some people may say that it looks better than DD2.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Incredible animations. This might not look next Gen but it sure feels next Gen. Hfw and avatar might prettier while flying but the scale here is simply amazing.