Support NeoGAF

[mrqs]

What do you mean "limited"? The black bars? If so I agree I feel they really undermine the graphics prowess of this game.

It's like "yeah amazing, but what about those black bars that take up 35% of screen real estate"? It's cheating. A reminder they couldnt get "there" without this crutch. I'm still excited for the game it just bothers me

The game looks like it'll be a linear corridor walking simulator with some combat. I think that's a bit limited on my eyes. I was expecting more of a new take instead of the same formula - which was pretty boring for me with the first one.

 

[SlimySnake]

Because Hack ass Devs wont stop incessantly complaining about file sizes. I die inside everytime time devs or fans for that matter complain about that shit.

Did you see hellblade is 70 gb on PC? I get that it’s a smaller game than Star Wars but if they are downgrading textures to reduce file size and vram cost then it’s lame. 8gb vram is enough for high settings at 1440p apparently.

Let’s see what happens. Ue5 games tend to have smaller file sizes in general.

 

[rofif]

Did you see hellblade is 70 gb on PC? I get that it’s a smaller game than Star Wars but if they are downgrading textures to reduce file size and vram cost then it’s lame. 8gb vram is enough for high settings at 1440p apparently.

Let’s see what happens. Ue5 games tend to have smaller file sizes in general.

Well compression can be invisible. 500kb jpg can look identical as 18mb png. Especially in texture format without being full on display and so on.

 

[Polygonal_Sprite]

Did you see hellblade is 70 gb on PC? I get that it’s a smaller game than Star Wars but if they are downgrading textures to reduce file size and vram cost then it’s lame. 8gb vram is enough for high settings at 1440p apparently.

Let’s see what happens. Ue5 games tend to have smaller file sizes in general.

File size is definitely becoming one of the worst bottlenecks for visually appealing AAA games. No one wants to ship games over 100gb or over two discs. Hell Square did it with Rebirth and it still has some dodgy textures. The file sizes needed for the UE5 tech demos stretched into full games would be 200+gb...

 

[CamHostage]

Not to derail this thread going into a technical discussion, but do check out Second-Loop. It starts rough visually (their gunsmoke effect is especially blobby,) but you can see its features and functions well as the game reveals itself.


Finding more of why this thread exists

 

[CamHostage]

File size is definitely becoming one of the worst bottlenecks for visually appealing AAA games. No one wants to ship games over 100gb or over two discs. Hell Square did it with Rebirth and it still has some dodgy textures.

Hellblade 2 is not releasing at retail on a disc (looks like there may be redemption cards, but as of now it's not available via physical media,) so they're not exactly locked into that restriction. Not sure why else they'd cap it at 70GB, (if in fact anything was changed specifically for file size concerns)?

But yes, file size is an issue that there is not much of an answer for awaiting us in the future. As I mentioned a few threads back, bandwidth and storage are not growing exponentially anymore, and physical media is just about hopeless.

...That said, there are technical reasons why "dodgy textures" appear in games which don't necessarily have to do with the resolution or quality of the texture. Prioritization, asset management, automated compression, format compatibilities with surfaces in lighting conditions or memory constraints, what have you. Somebody who has experience in this field can explain what's going on better than me (sometimes it probably still is rushing, especially when coordinating contractor studios shipping over assets,) but my bet would be that if you looked at just the textures which are considered "dodgy" in a game, you'd say, "Hmm, this looks fine here, but terrible over there, what happened?"

The file sizes needed for the UE5 tech demos stretched into full games would be 200+gb...

Kind of? There are features in Nanite which actually can cut down on file size; the actual mesh itself is "specialized mesh encoding," according to Epic, and is optimized mathematically over standard methods. Then there are features/tricks that Nanite can use which can potentially eliminate some of the layers of texture (because when we talk about a game's "texture", we're thinking about the red and brown paintjob of the rocks, but there's also stuff like Normal, BaseColor, Metallic, Specular, Roughness, and Mask textures. You can have a 4K Normal Map texture just for bumpiness. Here, the fake layer of viewable depth might be replaceable in Nanite through actual depth built into the mesh. (So instead of there being a trick of light and specularity and shading to make rivets look like they're sticking out of a flat drawing, you actually model them to stick out of the surface.) New surface tesselation and procedural content features could also supplant detailed methods of many high-res passes on a surface. That's a lot of promise, and in execution Nanite doesn't always do exactly what you hope it would do (and especially up close, it apparently becomes "sludgy" as it has trouble with the super-near geometry reshaping,) but techniques exist to help with bloat.

...But yeah, we're talking about very big assets coming in to a Nanite-driven project, so that we may get the full benefit of Nanite. And many, many other aspects of game production are bumping up file size as well. The Matrix Awakens / City Sample used a lot of procedural processes to copy and reform buildings (I think there are only something like 40 unique building designs in the whole thing,) yet the assets add up to 100GB and even compressed and cut down for console are still 25GB for not much material. It is a problem.

(Also, we've been given promissory notes since the beginning of this gen about file size... "Yay, Nanite and SSDs and DirectStorage file archive formats and Kraken compression - our drives are saved!!" In reality, we're still out to sea. If none of these advancements could make the difference, it's hard to say what else could come along and help.)

 

[CGNoire]

The file sizes needed for the UE5 tech demos stretched into full games would be 200+gb...

Im completely ok with that.

 

[CGNoire]

As I mentioned a few threads back, bandwidth and storage are not growing exponentially anymore, and physical media is just about hopeless.

Im just shocked that people Actual Care if they can fit more than 5 games at once on there console? Even if you have to wait a bit to redownload a game why does that even matter? People should value patience far more than that. Even with slow internet it takes less time to download a game today than it used to too visit Blockbuster and return with one back in the day.

 

[Andrea Pessino]

Did he explained why the image was softer than my grandpa's balls?

Was it also an artistic vision?

I still remember this pessino dude when he was interviewed by an italian site (dude is italian) and said that their melee system was so innovative that they called it cine-melee (like cinematic melee because a video start when you use it).

It was that day that i knew my compatriot was full of shit and the game was gonna be mid at best

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way. It again goes to show you that it had nothing to do with rendering limits or the technology pushing the platform too far - the choices were deliberate and our systems and the PS4 were perfectly capable to deliver as designed.

Same goes for the black bars - the aspect ratio of an image has profound implications on the way scenes are populated, framed, lit and animated - the visuals of the game were conceived and concepted from the ground up around these notions, the effect of the black bars was negligible as far as performance goes. As I said many times, our PC prototype from 2011 and all the concept art from this period (years before the PS4 specs were finalized) have the same aspect ratio and the black bars. Again, decisions were made, feel free to dislike them, as you do.

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise, but you don't have the full picture on a lot of things, and also what you say is not at all what was described or how it was supposed to work - sometimes marketing talking points don't come from where you think they do, let's just leave it at that. Beyond this, the way the whole cinemelee thing was envisioned never made it into the game (like many other things we were aiming for). As we were running out of time and were not given the option to extend any further, drastic cuts were made, across the board.

We needed another year, that is the truth of it... at the end it was our fault (by our I mean we in a position of leadership, our team did nothing but the most outstanding job possible). Some of the ambitious bets we made worked out well, some did not. I take responsibility for the latter - even when the issues originated from external forces, we should have fought harder or figured out ways to compensate. I am very sorry that the final output did not live up to expectations.

 

[RavionUHD]

The Witcher 3 with Raytracing still looks great in Ultrawide with DLDSR, DLSS and ReShade (especially on a good HDR monitor).

 

[SlimySnake]

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way.

Oh wow. I had no idea. Downloading the game again tonight.

My biggest issue with your game were the unskippable cutscenes. Some lasting several minutes and went back to back. Makes replaying a chore.

Other than that, your team should be proud that the game is held to such a high regard even after 9 years. You deserved to make a sequel.

 

[CamHostage]

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise...

But, is dude Italian?

 

[Andrea Pessino]

Oh wow. I had no idea. Downloading the game again tonight.

My biggest issue with your game were the unskippable cutscenes. Some lasting several minutes and went back to back. Makes replaying a chore.

Other than that, your team should be proud that the game is held to such a high regard even after 9 years. You deserved to make a sequel.

Thank you - you are very kind. And I agree with you on cutscenes - too many, too long and in certain parts too frequent (mostly because of cuts, again).

Alas, not being able to skip them was, again, driven more by trying to deliver on a "feel" than anything else. One of the pillars of the game was "no loading screens, ever, other than loading a save game." Something that was a point of pride for all our games ever since Daxter (which also had no loading screens, in spite of UMD read bandwidth being hard-to-believe pathetic).

Cutscenes were basically regular "streamed level chunks" with interaction removed, so to make them skippable we would have had to force a loading screen to catch up to having the required assets ready as they would be if the scene played on. Lots of technical considerations for this, including the fact that memory management had to be accurately calibrated to always have enough in reserve for smooth streaming while dealing with such high complexity, but at the end yeah... we just needed to show a loading screen in response to a request to skip. It was decided that such a thing did not fit the design and so, no skipping. I assure you I would vote otherwise if we had a chance for a do-over.

 

[Andrea Pessino]

But, is dude Italian?

Dude is, born and raised on pasta and Nutella.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Dude is, born and raised on pasta and Nutella.

What were some ideas tossed around for a sequel?

And how did you achieve cgi level visuals at times on the base PS4? Your team must have been proud of the final result

 

[CamHostage]

What were some ideas tossed around for a sequel?

And how did you achieve cgi level visuals at times on the base PS4? Your team must have been proud of the final result

Eh, Mr. Pessino is free to answer (and I'd be super curious as anybody, especially as The Order is still enviable in comparison to today's graphics almost a decade later, and maybe some answers to why might help us figure out the eternal topic of conversation, "{What} Graphic Fidelity I Expect This Gen".)

...I'm sure he's a busy guy though (hopefully making making something so kickass that it will force me to rush right out and finally buy a new Quest,) and he's gone into The Order a few times on GAF in other threads. So it might be good to look for those as well as to check out a new doc series that RoundTwo is doing (in Italian, but subbed) specifically about his career and projects. Ep1 of 3 planned eps is up now.

 

[GymWolf]

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way. It again goes to show you that it had nothing to do with rendering limits or the technology pushing the platform too far - the choices were deliberate and our systems and the PS4 were perfectly capable to deliver as designed.

Same goes for the black bars - the aspect ratio of an image has profound implications on the way scenes are populated, framed, lit and animated - the visuals of the game were conceived and concepted from the ground up around these notions, the effect of the black bars was negligible as far as performance goes. As I said many times, our PC prototype from 2011 and all the concept art from this period (years before the PS4 specs were finalized) have the same aspect ratio and the black bars. Again, decisions were made, feel free to dislike them, as you do.

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise, but you don't have the full picture on a lot of things, and also what you say is not at all what was described or how it was supposed to work - sometimes marketing talking points don't come from where you think they do, let's just leave it at that. Beyond this, the way the whole cinemelee thing was envisioned never made it into the game (like many other things we were aiming for). As we were running out of time and were not given the option to extend any further, drastic cuts were made, across the board.

We needed another year, that is the truth of it... at the end it was our fault (by our I mean we in a position of leadership, our team did nothing but the most outstanding job possible). Some of the ambitious bets we made worked out well, some did not. I take responsibility for the latter - even when the issues originated from external forces, we should have fought harder or figured out ways to compensate. I am very sorry that the final output did not live up to expectations.

I respect the direct answer dude, i didn't liked your game that much but the shooting was good and at least the atmosphere was top notch (not a fan of the story or the cutscene/gameplay ratio and some other things).

Sorry if i sound too harsh but better be honest than fake.

 

[miklonus]

Guys I made the fatal mistake of leaving this thread and responding to threads outside of this, relatively, comparatively, offended-free thread. I might not be on here much longer, because you know, the same website that calls other places soft, may act soft themselves and wanna ban me for calling out their sycophantic, pro-corporate behavior. Fuck it, it was worth it.
Shout out to SlimySnake for bein' the realest, and smartest, HARD A on here.

 

[Represent.]

Oh shit, we got devs in here now?

Andrea Pessino Please make all games 20fps moving forward.

 

[Zuzu]

I watched the Super Mario Bros movie the other day and wow it really shows how far ahead non-realtime graphics are compared to video game/realtime graphics. There’s still huge areas for improvement and advancement in gaming graphics.

 

[arkhamguy123]

I watched the Super Mario Bros movie the other day and wow it really shows how far ahead non-realtime are compared to video game/realtime graphics. There’s still huge areas for improvement and advancement in gaming graphics.

“diMiNishINg ReTUrnS”

 

[GymWolf]

“diMiNishINg ReTUrnS”

I know what people means when they say that and they are technically correct, but boy it's laughable when i read people being ok with what we have know because they think we are already almost at the top...

The sad thing is that before we get pixar level of render farms power for videogames we are gonna be all dead.

 

[xxDeadlockxx]

Dude is, born and raised on pasta and Nutella.

Well, here I am, who really liked your game. The only drawbacks I have are the length of the game, 4 - 5 more hours would have been great, and I really needed more moments of gunfights.

Ignoring those two things, the game seemed more than remarkable to me without a doubt. And technically I loved it, I still remember being amazed when I picked up an object to observe it and I stared at the quality of all the materials that could be seen on the screen. Fabrics, paper, metals...

 

[Hunnybun]

Im just shocked that people Actual Care if they can fit more than 5 games at once on there console? Even if you have to wait a bit to redownload a game why does that even matter? People should value patience far more than that. Even with slow internet it takes less time to download a game today than it used to too visit Blockbuster and return with one back in the day.

I like to have plenty of games on tap tbh, but even for me it was surprising to what extent 2.85Tb (compared to 0.85) is really just a ridiculous amount of storage. If games are going to quadruple in size then we need like 4Tb of storage as a minimum imo, but much beyond that is really an unnecessary luxury. Maybe 6-8 Tb would be ideal.

 

[geary]

Do any of you uses DLDSR? For a 2560x1440 monitor which factor do you recommend? DL or Legacy?

 

[RJMacready73]

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way. It again goes to show you that it had nothing to do with rendering limits or the technology pushing the platform too far - the choices were deliberate and our systems and the PS4 were perfectly capable to deliver as designed.

Same goes for the black bars - the aspect ratio of an image has profound implications on the way scenes are populated, framed, lit and animated - the visuals of the game were conceived and concepted from the ground up around these notions, the effect of the black bars was negligible as far as performance goes. As I said many times, our PC prototype from 2011 and all the concept art from this period (years before the PS4 specs were finalized) have the same aspect ratio and the black bars. Again, decisions were made, feel free to dislike them, as you do.

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise, but you don't have the full picture on a lot of things, and also what you say is not at all what was described or how it was supposed to work - sometimes marketing talking points don't come from where you think they do, let's just leave it at that. Beyond this, the way the whole cinemelee thing was envisioned never made it into the game (like many other things we were aiming for). As we were running out of time and were not given the option to extend any further, drastic cuts were made, across the board.

We needed another year, that is the truth of it... at the end it was our fault (by our I mean we in a position of leadership, our team did nothing but the most outstanding job possible). Some of the ambitious bets we made worked out well, some did not. I take responsibility for the latter - even when the issues originated from external forces, we should have fought harder or figured out ways to compensate. I am very sorry that the final output did not live up to expectations.

What an incredibly insightful response to a typical internet warrior post, well done chap! Can I just add out of all the many PS4 games that I've played, your game along with a few others Killzone, Uncharted 4 etc sticks in my head to this day as simply blowing me away at the time, you absolutely and unequivocally nailed it visually and thematically and so wished you guys where given the time and money to create a sequel and really nail your original vision, the world you built was second to none, sure some of the mechanics where a bit...erm.. repetitive but what your team accomplished given the time frame and constraints, done what it set out to do, provided me personally with a great bloody time!

 

[GymWolf]

Edit

 

[GymWolf]

Calling out devs when they fuck up it's what we do in here, it must be new for some people but they are gonna get used without calling other people warriors or some shit just because they liked the game.

I'm sure some people never said anything bad about any game or dev in their entire life.

I mean we all get games for free right? it's not like we pay for them so we have no right to criticize, right?

 

[rofif]

Guys I made the fatal mistake of leaving this thread and responding to threads outside of this, relatively, comparatively, offended-free thread. I might not be on here much longer, because you know, the same website that calls other places soft, may act soft themselves and wanna ban me for calling out their sycophantic, pro-corporate behavior. Fuck it, it was worth it.
Shout out to SlimySnake for bein' the realest, and smartest, HARD A on here.

graphics are serious business lol.
I am told to be blind idiot daily because I don't suck up ray tracing
It's normal. Get used to it!

 

[GymWolf]

graphics are serious business lol.
I am told to be blind idiot daily because I don't suck up ray tracing
It's normal. Get used to it!

Then we are 2 blind idiots mate.

Don't worry, we all have our priorities when it comes to graphic.

 

[H . R . 2]

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way. It again goes to show you that it had nothing to do with rendering limits or the technology pushing the platform too far - the choices were deliberate and our systems and the PS4 were perfectly capable to deliver as designed.

Same goes for the black bars - the aspect ratio of an image has profound implications on the way scenes are populated, framed, lit and animated - the visuals of the game were conceived and concepted from the ground up around these notions, the effect of the black bars was negligible as far as performance goes. As I said many times, our PC prototype from 2011 and all the concept art from this period (years before the PS4 specs were finalized) have the same aspect ratio and the black bars. Again, decisions were made, feel free to dislike them, as you do.

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise, but you don't have the full picture on a lot of things, and also what you say is not at all what was described or how it was supposed to work - sometimes marketing talking points don't come from where you think they do, let's just leave it at that. Beyond this, the way the whole cinemelee thing was envisioned never made it into the game (like many other things we were aiming for). As we were running out of time and were not given the option to extend any further, drastic cuts were made, across the board.

We needed another year, that is the truth of it... at the end it was our fault (by our I mean we in a position of leadership, our team did nothing but the most outstanding job possible). Some of the ambitious bets we made worked out well, some did not. I take responsibility for the latter - even when the issues originated from external forces, we should have fought harder or figured out ways to compensate. I am very sorry that the final output did not live up to expectations.

I have been your game's most staunch supporter.
all the valid criticism aside, I personally enjoyed every second of it and mourned and never really understood the closure of RAD.
despite all the constraints, you guys did an excellent job
we don't say it as often as we should, but we understand and appreciate how much hard work, talent, and passion it takes to create
such visually beautiful and technically sophisticated games, for this, we thank you all and any other studios who respects players

 

[RJMacready73]

Calling out devs when they fuck up it's what we do in here, it must be new for some people but they are gonna get used without calling other people warriors or some shit just because they liked the game.

I'm sure some people never said anything bad about any game or dev in their entire life.

I mean we all get games for free right? it's not like we pay for them so we have no right to criticize, right?

Mate there's calling out blatant scam artists and Devs who are nothing but greedy money hungering whores and they deserve to be dragged through the streets and lampooned but there's also being rude about games that where clearly a work of passion for the respective teams, not every game or movie is winning an oscar

 

[H . R . 2]

I mean we all get games for free right? it's not like we pay for them so we have no right to criticize, right?

you most certainly do have the right to criticise

Calling out devs when they fuck up it's what we do in here

how you do it , though, matters and makes a difference

I actually like some of your comments and agree with some of the points you have brought up [look at how many of your comments I have 'liked']
but sometimes, such things , are hardly constructive feedback, when you think about it

The games were bad and they deserve the trashing, especially callisto, full stop.

Post all the pics you want, the graphic is the only salvageable point of these trash ass games.

Nah, callisto and the order are just bad games, especially callisto, don't put it together with tlou and horizon, cmon.

The trashing and bashing was super deserved.

We can still praise them for the graphic in this topic if they deserve.

we are all aware by now that many of these studios and devs frequent this forum
I am saying we should all try to be a tad more descriptive and specific when it comes to the feedback we give studios
for the sake of the common goal here
"visual fidelity"

 

[GymWolf]

Mate there's calling out blatant scam artists and Devs who are nothing but greedy money hungering whores and they deserve to be dragged through the streets and lampooned but there's also being rude about games that where clearly a work of passion for the respective teams, not every game or movie is winning an oscar

you most certainly do have the right to criticise



how you do it , though, matters and makes a difference

I actually like some of your comments and agree with some of the points you have brought up [look at how many of your comments I have 'liked']
but sometimes, such things , are hardly constructive feedback, when you think about it



we are all aware by now that many of these studios and devs frequent this forum
I am saying we should all try to be a tad more descriptive and specific when it comes to giving studios feedback
for the sake of the common goal here
"visual fidelity"

In this topic we are always over the top with the comments, we bust each other balls and heavily criticize devs and games, if mr pessino didn't responded, my post would be one of the many in here and nobody would even care because we fucking say even worse things about other games and devs, ready at down doens't have a free out of jail card.

Of course i give credit to the graphic but if i read something silly in an interview or if i don't like the game or how soft the image was, i'm not gonna stay silent, it's not what we do in this topic and i'm not gonna start now.

Being a passion project doesn't mean that it was perfect or that i can't criticize it, it's not how it work in the real world.

Was it a passion move to make such dogshit boss fights? was it a passion move to make the werewolves outside of boss fights a worst version of the hunter enemies from dead space 2? was it a passion move to have less than abysmal challenge and enemy variety? the game was deeply flawed and i'm not gonna act like it wasn't, i'm gonna call a duck a duck, not a swan.


Almost all games (hell almost all songs, movies, books etc.) in existence are a work of passion except the most blatant cash grabs like the day after or how it was called, you think the people who worked on making egypt so great looking were not passionate when they worked on ac origins? but i see now one defending them talking about a passion project.


My only fault is to be a bit too harsh and trying to make people laugh in the only topic where i can be a bit more harsh without being banned, sorry i guess.

You can search my post history, i always praised the gunplay, how the weapons felt all different and the top notch atmospehre, i give cesar what belong to casar.

 

[Hunnybun]

The "softness" of the image might have not been to your liking, but it was very much part of the artistic vision as well. Our artists wanted to try something different and very specific, and we had to create lots of new tech to enable those ideas. Some worked out and some not so much. This is why when we introduced the Photo Mode we added full control over all postprocessing (and much more), and your changes could be persistent. You could make the image as sharp and free of simulated camera artifacts as you pleased, then play the game that way. It again goes to show you that it had nothing to do with rendering limits or the technology pushing the platform too far - the choices were deliberate and our systems and the PS4 were perfectly capable to deliver as designed.

Same goes for the black bars - the aspect ratio of an image has profound implications on the way scenes are populated, framed, lit and animated - the visuals of the game were conceived and concepted from the ground up around these notions, the effect of the black bars was negligible as far as performance goes. As I said many times, our PC prototype from 2011 and all the concept art from this period (years before the PS4 specs were finalized) have the same aspect ratio and the black bars. Again, decisions were made, feel free to dislike them, as you do.

And finally, I will not argue on me being "full of shit" or otherwise, but you don't have the full picture on a lot of things, and also what you say is not at all what was described or how it was supposed to work - sometimes marketing talking points don't come from where you think they do, let's just leave it at that. Beyond this, the way the whole cinemelee thing was envisioned never made it into the game (like many other things we were aiming for). As we were running out of time and were not given the option to extend any further, drastic cuts were made, across the board.

We needed another year, that is the truth of it... at the end it was our fault (by our I mean we in a position of leadership, our team did nothing but the most outstanding job possible). Some of the ambitious bets we made worked out well, some did not. I take responsibility for the latter - even when the issues originated from external forces, we should have fought harder or figured out ways to compensate. I am very sorry that the final output did not live up to expectations.

Have you got any thoughts in general about what seems like film and tv artists' preoccupation with using post-processing to degrade digital images so that they look "cinematic" in the way projections of film stock do? They even extend this to the same use of 21:9 or similar aspect ratios (even though this just results in black (grey) bars even in a cinema - no more cinemascope these days) despite the content being exclusively viewable on 16:9 displays. Personally I strongly disagree that black bars ever look as good as a full 16:9 image.

Almost all the content I watch these days seems to have the same two signs of this desire to ape old films, with soft, low quality image quality and big black bars. I find it extremely annoying, especially when I see just how amazing an OLED screen can look with unadulterated content - for example, Ratchet & Clank at 4k and with the post processing turned off.

I'd be interested to know what your thoughts are. Mine basically amount to this: artists should by default be trying to use modern technology to create a new and cutting edge aesthetic, without any regard to an arbitrary cinematic standard that is effectively a result of the constraints of, say, 1970s technology. Thanks

 

[RJMacready73]

In this topic we are always over the top with the comments, we bust each other balls and heavily criticize devs and games, if mr pessino didn't responded, my post would one of the many in here and nobody would even care because we fucking say even worse things about other games and devs, ready at down doens't have a free out of jail card.

Of course i give credit to the graphic but if i read something silly in an interview or if i don't like the game or how soft the image was, i'm not gonna stay silent, it's not what we do in this topic and i'm not gonna start now.

Being a passion project doesn't mean that it was perfect or that i can't criticize it, it's not how it work in the real world.

Was it a passion move to make such dogshit boss fights? was it a passion move to make the werewolves outside of boss fights a worst version of the hunter enemies from dead space 2? was it a passion move to have less than abysmal challenge and enemy variety? the game was deeply flawed and i'm not gonna act like it wasn't, i'm gonna call a duck a duck, not a swan.

Almost all games in existence are a work of passion except the most blatant cash grabs like the day after or how it was called, you think the people who worked on making egypt so great looking were not passionate when they worked on ac origins? but i see now one defending them talking about a passion project.

My only fault is to be a bit too harsh and trying to make people laugh in the only topic where i can be a bit more harsh without being banned, sorry i guess.

No need to apologise, your post wasn't that offensive hell mine comes off as pure ball licking! But I genuinely did enjoy the game lol we where small in number unfortunately and c'mon mate you weren't to know that only the bloody dev to the game you slated was gonna respond in the next post lol it's the equivalent to me slagging off Oppenheimer for being a load of boring aul overthetop bollocks and having Nolen come in and explain the reasons why I thought that, all good stuff

 

[GymWolf]

No need to apologise, your post wasn't that offensive hell mine comes off as pure ball licking! But I genuinely did enjoy the game lol we where small in number unfortunately and c'mon mate you weren't to know that only the bloody dev to the game you slated was gonna respond in the next post lol it's the equivalent to me slagging off Oppenheimer for being a load of boring aul overthetop bollocks and having Nolen come in and explain the reasons why I thought that, all good stuff

Sorry if i called you out for enjoying the game, it's all good on my part.

I always said that i would play a sequel of the order made by a better team, i can't say the same for callisto, ac unity or ryse, so between them, i consider the order the best of the bunch, i wasn't even able to finish ryse or ac unity and barely finished callisto but i have 2 runs on the order.

 

[H . R . 2]

I always said that i would play a sequel of the order made by a better team

they were already the best at it, they thought of the whole concept, created the world , the characters and made the game the technical achievement it still is
as he mentioned, they just weren't given the time and resources to realise their vision. and why not just give them feedback? why does it always have to be a new studio or team?

Was it a passion move to make such dogshit boss fights? was it a passion move to make the werewolves outside of boss fights a worst version of the hunter enemies from dead space 2? was it a passion move to have less than abysmal challenge and enemy variety? the game was deeply flawed and i'm not gonna act like it wasn't, i'm gonna call a duck a duck, not a swan.

that's what I am talking about
you have never been more articulate with your feedback
more of that please

 

[GymWolf]

they were already the best at it, they thought of the whole concept, created the world , the characters and made the game the technical achievement it still is
as he mentioned, they just weren't given the time and resources to realise their vision. and why not just give them feedback? why does it always have to be a new studio or team?


that's what I am talking about
you have never been more articulate with your feedback
more of that please

I really don't wanna bring down the game too much, especially if i'm surronded by people who enjoyed it

I think they did their best work with their vr titles, i enjoyed the one in the space station with the chick and the android, it was during my vr honeymoon so i was very into the whole thing

But i don't think they were nearly at their best when they made the order, the things i listed are pretty heavy flaws for a tps and i'm not nearly done, believe me.
I think that their graphic\art design designer were some of the best even if i don't like some of the things they had to do to achieve that level of fidelity.


Just to left you with a bone, for a game with such a short plot, they really managed to have a couple of egregious plotholes, one of them was so fucking right in your face that i genuinely laughed when i experienced it.

I REALLY don't think they were nearly at their best, i think some design choice were dictated by inexperience or just not good enough skills, but i don't wanna be too harsh again.

 

[H . R . 2]

Terminator: Survivors Will Have “Multiple Drivable Vehicles”, Built on Unreal Engine 5

another UE5 title
it will be interesting to see what different studios can do with UE5. but this being a game with cooperative multiplayer I think expectations must be tempered
for now Amy's Marvel and Unrecord [if it ever sees the light of day] are the only UE5 titles that have held my attention
hopefully this will change with Gears6 reveal , soon

 

[miklonus]

graphics are serious business lol.
I am told to be blind idiot daily because I don't suck up ray tracing
It's normal. Get used to it!

I was calling people out for the pro-Sony behavior. Outside of this, people love to defend anything Sony. If Sony killed their moms they'd throw a parade. Anything Sony gets defended. I just picked up Tekken 8 and Stellar Blade last weekend on the same day (Sunday). I've been Nintendo and Sony all my life. And as I stated in two or three posts prior, I shit on them because Nintendo and Sony have given me plenty of reasons dating back to '88. I don't understand this modern ass-kissing shit. Sony is ban-, or censor-friendly, and control freaks to boot, and you got these soft-defense comments on here justifying CORPORATE behavior. Makes me fuckin' sick.
And it's opinions like these that I'm sharing is why I don't post on here, because I'm always an opinion away from gettin' banned.

 

[rofif]

I was calling people out for the pro-Sony behavior. Outside of this, people love to defend anything Sony. If Sony killed their moms they'd throw a parade. Anything Sony gets defended. I just picked up Tekken 8 and Stellar Blade last weekend on the same day (Sunday). I've been Nintendo and Sony all my life. And as I stated in two or three posts prior, I shit on them because Nintendo and Sony have given me plenty of reasons dating back to '88. I don't understand this modern ass-kissing shit. Sony is ban-, or censor-friendly, and control freaks to boot, and you got these soft-defense comments on here justifying CORPORATE behavior. Makes me fuckin' sick.
And it's opinions like these that I'm sharing is why I don't post on here, because I'm always an opinion away from gettin' banned.

All of these big companies are super stiff and corporate in last few years.
I miss the days of stupid e3 shows with ceos goofing around.
now it's all suits or stiff interviews.

 

[GymWolf]

For people who know about graphic rendering history and miniaturization of hardwares, how many years we have to wait before having the same power that pixar has for videogames? so like an entire render farm worth of rendering budget inside a case? 50 years? more?

Maybe it's gonna be possible with cloud gaming where you don't have the hardware physically inside your home? but you can't do that unless the entire world has an high standard internet connection i guess.

 

[arkhamguy123]

I know what people means when they say that and they are technically correct, but boy it's laughable when i read people being ok with what we have know because they think we are already almost at the top...

The sad thing is that before we get pixar level of render farms power for videogames we are gonna be all dead.

Nope. I just turned 26 on Monday and the gap is closing rapidly.

The UE5 2020 demo was using film assets and running real time on PS5 at 1440p locked 30fps. Spider-Man 2, Demon Souls, FF16 all have their moments where they flirt with cgi level fidelity

EDIT: the 1943 marvel game and gta 6 look to impress further. I (foolishly) also have high hopes for near future PS first party exclusives

 

[SlimySnake]

Nope. I just turned 26 on Monday and the gap is closing rapidly.

The UE5 2020 demo was using film assets and running real time on PS5 at 1440p locked 30fps. Spider-Man 2, Demon Souls, FF16 all have their moments where they flirt with cgi level fidelity

EDIT: the 1943 marvel game and gta 6 look to impress further. I (foolishly) also have high hopes for near future PS first party exclusives

Matrix showed my that the gap is already closed. The hardware is there and the software tech is there. We just need devs to show up.

 

[Hunnybun]

Nope. I just turned 26 on Monday and the gap is closing rapidly.

The UE5 2020 demo was using film assets and running real time on PS5 at 1440p locked 30fps. Spider-Man 2, Demon Souls, FF16 all have their moments where they flirt with cgi level fidelity

EDIT: the 1943 marvel game and gta 6 look to impress further. I (foolishly) also have high hopes for near future PS first party exclusives

I think RT and nanite-level geometry will get us more or less to photorealism in relatively static scenes, and that's basically next gen which is like 4 or so years away now, so not long.

But simulating destruction, weather, smoke and liquid, other physics - the final frontier, basically - well I've no idea how long that'll take. Probably at least two more generations beyond PS6, I'd have thought.

 

[CamHostage]

For people who know about graphic rendering history and miniaturization of hardwares, how many years we have to wait before having the same power that pixar has for videogames? so like an entire render farm worth of rendering budget inside a case? 50 years? more?

Just in terms of the material data used to make Pixar movies, Toy Story 1 in 1995 had assets totaling 1/2 a terabyte. Cars 2 was 17TBs, The Good Dinosaur was over 300TB. That's just the size of all their cinema-quality models and textures and audio and content, on drives, waiting to be loaded up in those render farms for hours or days to render a sequence.

So... never?

Having the same "power" of a Pixar render farm (and by that, which time of a render farm are we talking? TS1 or now 30 years later? Production-finalization or daily use? Daytime run or night batches?) versus actually producing something like Pixar-quality visuals are two entirely separate goals. Games aren't trying to do what Pixar does, they're trying to do what games do, and these means are often accomplished by different mechanisms.

Even the way that they 'cheat' is different. Games cheat out detail not on screen one way because they have to optimize memory and performance to render what needs to be seen every fraction of a second from what it has available to process at the time. Films on the other hand cheat out whatever they want whenever they want because they control the angle and lighting and motion trajectory of every single frame in linear progression that the viewer experiences.

We all have more computing in our pocket cellphone than NASA had in the Apollo missions, yet none of us is vacationing on the moon this summer. "Power" isn't necessarily what makes technology powerful.

Also, we're seeing the theory of Moore's Law hitting a cap, or at least slowing down. Processor die cannot shrink forever, atoms are only so big. We'll at some point have to think differently about how processing works and stacks, and not all of those ideas are clear yet if they even exist. So whatever's coming is less likely to be some multi-petaflop cybermonster box 100x+ beyond what we have today. PC makers are trying to work smarter, not more powerfully.

The Death of Moore’s Law: What it means and what might fill the gap going forward

cap.csail.mit.edu

 

[Lethal01]

For people who know about graphic rendering history and miniaturization of hardwares, how many years we have to wait before having the same power that pixar has for videogames?

Going by the jump we had going from the 80s to the 2000s we would see like maybe like a thousand fold increase in "Power" in 20 years. Going by recent Gpus of just ps4 to Ps5 you get like a 10x increase in performance every 7~10 years. going by nvidia Gpus you get a 1.5x release in 5 years

Imagine Pixar Renders their movie on a single PS5/4090.
If they rendered a frame per second it would be 30x more than games, if they spent a single minute it would be 1800x

Now to quote an invterview

However, the complexity of "Toy Story 4" means it can take 60 to 160 hours to render one frame. And there were a lot of limitations.

But thats kind of irrelevant, I would love if we could just keep going smaller and faster until we surpass the speed of light but when it comes to shrinking things we are hitting the limits that may require total changes in approach.

Many companies plans for how to increase power Historical data is not dependable since at this point many are crossing their fingers in the hope that one of their 50 random ideas to give them a 10x of 100x increase in perfromance plays out, but who knows whether that takes 5 years or a hundred.

So yeah we are all holding our breath that there is another "revolution" that makes out expectation irrelevant otherwise you are looking at a thousand years or so.

 

[Audiophile]

At least where its key features are used (Nanite and/or Lumen), I generally regard UE5 has having been in "beta" until 5.4/5.5. The amount of games released with merely acceptable performance and image quality are incredibly thin on the ground. Thankfully looks like that's about to turn around.

 

[GymWolf]

I think you people don't understand, i'm not just talking about graphic, i'm also talking about simulation and physics on pixar level.