Isn't it just because Sony has decided they don't need to show anything because Microsoft can't show anything?
The idea that Insomniac couldn't show something of Spider-Man 2 if they wanted to seems a bit hyperbolic.
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Graphical Fidelity I Expect This Gen
- Thread starter ResetEraVetVIP
- Start date
Isn't it just because Sony has decided they don't need to show anything because Microsoft can't show anything?
The idea that Insomniac couldn't show something of Spider-Man 2 if they wanted to seems a bit hyperbolic.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
But it didn't have to be mentioned at all tbh. No one here has ever argued against this position.
My fault, my fault everyone, I was tripp'n. That 1738 was making it do what it do. Let's discuss about graphics where it matters the most for me, gameplay.
I couldnt believe my eyes. This looked CG to me. To say otherwise you've chosen a path of ignorance. Sometimes you just have to use hyperbole. It really is something quite perfect. For the players.
Wtf are you even going on about? If you're going to comment try to bring something of value to the table.
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
I think a lot of people's point is we're at the standard now in current gen only AAA games where the average person would put the visual level on par with Hollywood CGI. OVBIOUSLY if you're into visuals like us then we KNOW there's still a long way to go but when you consider games like Ratchet and Demon's Souls have 16ms to render a frame versus CGI which has hours with many times the compute power to do it then it's amazing how close the gap currently is and we've not really seen these new consoles even tickled yet in terms of what they can do visually. Demon's Souls team said they had multiple cores of CPU laying around, unused RAM and unused GPU cycles... They've maybe hit 50% of what they can achieve on Series X + PS5 so far imo. Just because they port the PC version of a game over and have to run it at 1440p to hit 60fps doesn't mean they're tapped out. it means the old paradigm of engines don't fit in the different shaped hole of unlimited polygons and 5gb/s SSD's. There's sooo much more to come from them.
Lumpyoatmeal
Member
Yeah, I agree.I'm playing TLOU remake just now and it's a ridiculously good looking game. Sure it has parts you can cherry pic because it has so much indirect lighting and looks flat at times but my god the game overall is a 10 visually. The leap in facial animation over the original game and it's Remaster is astounding. Probably the best human faces I've seen in a game and because they're stylised you don't get that 'The Quarry' like uncanny valley effect.
Your move Rockstar
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
I'm pleasantly surprised by almost every AAA games visuals I play nowadays tbh. I was playing DOOM Eternal on PS5 the other day and it's such a ridiculous looking game and ultra smooth with not a single frame dropping in it's framerate mode. I was also playing Forza Horizon 5 again after not really feeling it at launch but my god some of the vistas, how much detail you can see and the quality of the cars, shaders, materials and textures are all jaw dropping... And it's built around a 1.3tflop Xbox One with a laptop CPU/GPU combo from 2011...
The next Forza Horizon built from the ground up for Series S/X is going to melt peoples faces off.
The next Forza Horizon built from the ground up for Series S/X is going to melt peoples faces off.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
That is an extremely optimistic view considering how unproven and unseen any of that is. Yes we have the Matrix tech demo but that's sub 30 fps and is a ...tech demo.
This new paradigm we've been hearing about is seemingly still a long ways away.
Why can't they push above 1440p/60 if they were so powerful. Even Naughty Dog struggling to do so.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
that looks last gen as fuck though. I dont see anyone using last gen games like TLOU, Death Stranding, Deathloop and Ghostwire tokyo to say that they look CG. Ratchet is different because its a cartoon and is chasing the CG look and feel of Disney CG movies.My fault, my fault everyone, I was tripp'n. That 1738 was making it do what it do. Let's discuss about graphics where it matters the most for me, gameplay.
I couldnt believe my eyes. This looked CG to me. To say otherwise you've chosen a path of ignorance. Sometimes you just have to use hyperbole. It really is something quite perfect. For the players.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
I hope the people in this thread, at least, the ones who actually truly care about significant Visual Fidelity improvements this gen, the real graphic whores... Are in agreement that 30pfs in games moving forward is the way to go. You'll get much better looking games targeting 30 than you ever will 60.
Performance whores are different from graphics whores. People who need everything to be fucking 60-120fps or they cant play a game are not graphics whores, they're performance whores. People who sacrifice resolution, ray tracing, effects, textures and overall fidelity to play in Performance mode are not graphics whores. If you don't play in Fidelity mode, you're not a real graphics connoisseur.
Performance whores are folks who think games like Ragnarok are the peak of what the gen can offer visually, and are OK with that because it'll run at 60. They're also cool with cross gen games because "games can scale"... Missing the entire point of owning a brand new console in hopes of devs pushing for higher fidelity.
Fuck that. I don't believe in "diminishing returns", we have a LOT more to look forward to. This medium is still a baby. I don't think any dev has even come close to truly utilizing the potential of the medium just yet. And with that statement i'm not talking about visuals.
As someone who truly appreciates visuals in this interactive medium, you have to be ok with 30fps moving forward as the standard. If you need more than that in every single game then you really should go buy a 4000 series.
Performance whores are different from graphics whores. People who need everything to be fucking 60-120fps or they cant play a game are not graphics whores, they're performance whores. People who sacrifice resolution, ray tracing, effects, textures and overall fidelity to play in Performance mode are not graphics whores. If you don't play in Fidelity mode, you're not a real graphics connoisseur.
Performance whores are folks who think games like Ragnarok are the peak of what the gen can offer visually, and are OK with that because it'll run at 60. They're also cool with cross gen games because "games can scale"... Missing the entire point of owning a brand new console in hopes of devs pushing for higher fidelity.
Fuck that. I don't believe in "diminishing returns", we have a LOT more to look forward to. This medium is still a baby. I don't think any dev has even come close to truly utilizing the potential of the medium just yet. And with that statement i'm not talking about visuals.
As someone who truly appreciates visuals in this interactive medium, you have to be ok with 30fps moving forward as the standard. If you need more than that in every single game then you really should go buy a 4000 series.
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Polygonal_Sprite
Member
It's not a 'tech demo' though is it. It's a brand new engine running real assets in real time on consumer hardware. A 'tech demo' would have been if they had shown the demo not let people download it and play it like the "Lumen in the Land of Nanite" tech demo from May 2020. It's also built by a relative small team, on a small budget (compared to current AAA games) and was built using early dev kits, unmatured development tools and a very early version of UE5. A game will launch this gen that blows The Matrix demo out of the water visually (using mostly art) and it will run at 1440p/60fps.
They're not pushing above native 1440p/60fps because that's the sweet spot for image quality and temporal stability without blowing your rendering budget on 8 million pixels for 4k. PC gamers were telling us all the time during the PS4 Pro / Xbox One X time that targeting 4k was a "waste of time". Now the consoles target 1440p/60fps, 4k is suddenly needed even though Steam stats shows most PC players still play at sub 1440p lol...
With the way engines are now designed around the GPU and with how powerful the console CPU's are now there's no real reason not to include a 'framerate mode' which reduces resolution and maybe some more aggressive geometry culling to hit 60fps.
ChiefDada
Gold Member
Pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
bentanchorbolt
Banned
Games running @ 30fps look bad in motion and no amount of proper frame pacing or clever motion blur is ever going to change that. I guess if you only care about static photo mode shots then sure, 30fps is the way to go, but part of how a game looks is also how is moves, and 60fps provides a much clearer image in motion. What good are amazing shadows, textures, lighting, and other post-processing effects, if the moment you start to move your character around you are playing a smeary slideshow? That doesn't at all scream high graphical fidelity to me.
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ChiefDada
Gold Member
Agree with this but that could be due to the fact I play on an oled and 30fps is simply too low to enjoy playing, and like you said too low to appreciate the asset details and vfx.
I think labels for gameplay modes need to be adjusted. Imo there should be 3 different modes:
Fidelity Resolution - Prioritize 4k, 30 fps, standard vfx
Fidelity VFX - Prioritize balls to the wall ray tracing and vfx, 1440p resolution with ~1300-1600p DRS range, 40-60 fps.
Framerate - Prioritize 60+fps with 1440p-4k DRS range, substandard vfx, with similar option for 1080p/120 fps.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
You're wrong.
You see how incredible this looks? Thats not a static photo, its pure raw gameplay running at a perfectly smooth playable 30fps.
What part of that looks bad in motion? I don't understand people who can watch that video and say it looks choppy or unstable. Like what? In fact, when you compare this same exact scene in performance mode, it looks considerably worse. In every way possible it looks worse.
bentanchorbolt
Banned
60fps looks dramatically more smooth and considerably clearer in motion which is part of image quality, how clear an image is. You can prefer 30fps more and that doesn't make you right or wrong, this whole topic if kind of subjective in regards to which avenue you prefer. It's not that the video you posted looks unstable or even choppy, because it looks perfectly stable. But it doesn't look smooth, and the image blurs in motion which does make the overall experience look worse than it should.
That said, I will place clarity in motion above higher fidelity in other areas if it means I have to give up 50% of my frames.
Edit: that said, 30fps with good motion blur and proper frame pacing isn't unplayable or game breaking, at least not to me. In some cases it can be completely fine and adds a cinematic quality to the experience.
Edit 2: it also depends heavily on the game type. an fps at 30fps is a terrible experience any way you slice it, same for racing games and other heavy action games. 30fps is fine generally for games like tomb raider, rdr2, horizon, etc.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
It's different when you're watching a video of a 30 fps game vs playing yourself since you're the one moving the camera and seeing judder
Polygonal_Sprite
Member
This was done by a fan, single guy. Does anyone know if that is in game visuals with a fuck ton of post processing effects? If so that shows just how important PP is to how great a game looks. It's no wonder developers want to target 30fps over 60fps because they get around 4x the time for post effects.
Also guys is -
(LGOLED48C26LB, 48 inch, OLED, 4K Ultra HD, Smart TV)
The best TV for gaming for around a grand? Thanks.
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Polygonal_Sprite
Member
Some people just notice it more. No matter how you slice it the display is only getting a frame every second native frame instead of one every single frame at 60fps.
I've tried 30fps modes because the IQ is immaculate but once I flip the switch and go back to 60 there really is no substitute on top of the fact that game is smoother in visuals terms because of it's higher temporal resolution at 60fps. The controls are also far more responsive at 60. More power to you though if 30 is fine, I wish I was the same because as I said the IQ at 30 is crazy good looking and I have a shit tv, can't imagine what Forbidden West, Miles Morales, Demon's Souls, FH5, FS 2020, Gears 5 and Ratchet all look like on a decent OLED at 4k.
Also crazy to think that Forbidden West is a PS4 game built around the limitations of Jaguar CPU's, 5GB of RAM, a HDD and a 1.8tf GPU. Horizon 3 is going to look mental.
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Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
What does this even mean?
Its been said many times in this thread that there are many different examples of "CG", with many different levels of quality and art style.
My hope for this gen was that games look as good as some of the more impressive UE4 and unity tech demos made before current gen consoles were released. Realtime visuals wont match CG in multiple aspects until compute is far higher. Then it is now, the fluid and physics simulations that cg does (even old cg) is crazy compute intensive. Game devs basically have to do software hacks and innovations to try and fake what cg is doing, but some things cant be faked.
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60fps always looks dramatically better to my eyes, holding other things equal. So the test is whether the sacrifices necessary for it are worth it. IMO they generally are. I think generally 1440p at 60 looks a lot more beautiful than 4k at 30.
Although I would say that 40fps modes and VRR is probably the ideal compromise this generation.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
This is hyperbole…the RC car demo would pass as a Pixar movie if released in theaters…nobody would question it…of course it might not be the best example of prerendered visuals, but I think when people say “looks CGI” they mean high quality and prerendered…
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
It’s about matching pre rendered media…recent media…not toy story or old blatantly outdated media… people should start saying recent CGI IMO…
Sosokrates
Report me if I continue to console war
In a thread like this its not accurate enough to say "looks cgi"
People need to say the specific cgi and what aspects look similar otherwise its impossible to know what they mean when someone says "looks cgi" or "looks like cgi"
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ResetEraVetVIP
Member
People overlook just how good Spiderman Miles Morales graphics are IMO..
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
wow. I was actually just replaying that yesterday and took these screenshots. I love how they designed all the story missions to take place in reflective surfaces. its a last gen game, but clearly designed with PS5 in mind. cant say that about any other cross gen game this gen.
Also every object in the first screenshot can be destroyed. Windows, desks, shelves, bookcases, everything.
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Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Banned
I think this may depend on brain differences. The size of the visual cortex I heard can differ between individuals by more than 3 fold iirc. I suspect people devoting more brain tissue to vision may be able to interpolate frames more easily than others with less brain tissue devoted to vision.
Correlated Size Variations in Human Visual Cortex, Lateral Geniculate Nucleus, and Optic Tract
We have examined several components of the human visual system to determine how the dimensions of the optic tract, lateral geniculate nucleus (LGN), and primary visual cortex (V1) vary within the same brain. Measurements were made of the cross-sectional area of the optic tract, the volumes of...
www.jneurosci.org
I don't know how some of these people that have problems with solid 30fps handled the choppy framerates of the n64. For those that are too young to have experienced the n64 don't know if they could handle it.
Even in n64 I could notice the choppy framerate, but it didn't bother me, the games looked to have fine motion.
The cgi spider man nanosuit in infinity war looked quite fake I'm sure a similar armor could look far more realistic in real time with proper calibration of materials
Also I'll be surprised if before the generation is over the realism of human characters in real time cutscenes doesn't notably exceed that of rogue one's cgi
This is probably the latest state of the art in high end hollywood cg
This is a game coming to consoles which are already more than a year old and came with watered down ray tracing abilities.
The gap is slowly but surely getting smaller. Especially when it comes to environments.
It is expected in the coming years nanite like tech will be adapted to work with deformable geometry, once that happens human characters and animals will have geometric detail matching hollywood cg. AI can learn how physics works and run emulations of physics with far far less compute. And we are probably just a few gens away from path tracing being viable ingame.
Not sure if previously posted, but AI can lead to vast speed increases(100X to 500+X) while providing comparable results to much slower simulations.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
I agree this gam looks like a true "next gen" game a lot of the time
GymWolf
Gold Member
Crossgen af.wow. I was actually just replaying that yesterday and took these screenshots. I love how they designed all the story missions to take place in reflective surfaces. its a la
Also every object in the first screenshot can be destroyed. Windows, desks, shelves, bookcases, everything.
The only thing that impressed me in morales was the rendering of some dress material like the pullover.
mrMUR_96
Member
Really impressed by insomniac's ray tracing implementation, seems a step above everyone else on console so far.wow. I was actually just replaying that yesterday and took these screenshots. I love how they designed all the story missions to take place in reflective surfaces. its a last gen game, but clearly designed with PS5 in mind. cant say that about any other cross gen game this gen.
Also every object in the first screenshot can be destroyed. Windows, desks, shelves, bookcases, everything.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Of course its cross gen but those reflections look mighty impressive. Way better than any RT reflections ive seen even on PC and I played Control day one.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Boy i envy how easy you are to impress with some fucking reflections
Also, isn't that like a poor pic to show reflections? They look terribly low res and shimmering.
I still think that some dress details are the most impressive and unique thing, look at the fucking beanie and scarf, that's some photorealistic shit right there.
They need to castrate whoever use imgur to upload images...(except my dude Vick, he's ok)
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Cr1ptkeeper
Member
I wish developers would choose RT shadows above RT reflections for certain games if they decide to put in RT. Ofcourse RT global illumination is the holy grail but that's expensive. I notice shadow pop-in more than SSR artifacts.
mrMUR_96
Member
It's a waxy floor, so the reflections are distorted, but they're very stable in motion with no flickering in my experience. The resolution is solid, it's checkerboarded up to 4k, you can see how clear they are when looking at reflections on skyscrapers or shop windows for a better example.Boy i envy how easy you are to impress with some fucking reflections
Also, isn't that like a poor pic to show reflections? They look terribly low res and shimmering.
I still think that some dress details are the most impressive and unique thing, look at the fucking beanie and scarf, that's some photorealistic shit right there.
They need to castrate whoever use imgur to upload images...(except my dude Vick, he's ok)
Yeah damn, the materials rendering on the scarfs etc are amazing, don't forget the really impressive hair rendering tech they have too.
GymWolf
Gold Member
I know reflections ingame are better, i played the game at launch, that's why i said that he chose a poor screenshot
Hair tech for alvin was nice but not something unique like the pullover fabric, that is something that i only saw in morales.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
its not a mirror lolBoy i envy how easy you are to impress with some fucking reflections
Also, isn't that like a poor pic to show reflections? They look terribly low res and shimmering.
I still think that some dress details are the most impressive and unique thing, look at the fucking beanie and scarf, that's some photorealistic shit right there.
They need to castrate whoever use imgur to upload images...(except my dude Vick, he's ok)
Reflections add depth to a scene. I know that there are better ways to enhance the visual fidelity but as far as cross gen games go, this is one of the few games that really enhance the overall look of the game. Other games with RT have you wondering if its even there. But insomniac made sure to give nearly every story mission a reflective surface knowing they were going to be releasing this on the PS5. Games like BF5 had one hotel in one map feature reflections lol. Control had several but they were muted compared to Miles. Same with Guardians.
GymWolf
Gold Member
You already know my opinion about rtx reflection when ssr are a thing that exist.
Especially in a game like morales where you never stop moving and you are not there slowly jerking the camera like a moron to catch ssr flaws.
So many games with pixel perfect fake reflections where i never noticed the flaws that keeps rtx fanboy awake at night in anguish.
What about enhancing the image with something that doesn't have a lighter counterpart that looks almost the same...
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Lethal01
Member
That would be reflection, there are no lighter counterparts that look almost the same for reflections, every attempt looks like garbage.
GymWolf
Gold Member
Isn't the problem of ssr that htye look wrong when you move the camera in a certain way more than fidelity of the reflections?
because i swear to god i always saw good reflections in most games without rtx.
Turk1993
GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
RT does really add alot to Spiderman, the SSR and cubemaps where hit and miss and mostly low quality.
This is how it was last gen when you got closer to buildings
gameplay PS4 Pro
And this is how the SSR looked on the ground
Negotiator101
Member
I was impressed with the RT reflections in Doom Eternal, thought they added to the game.
Turk1993
GAFs #1 source for car graphic comparisons
Yup thats Killzone: SF, i love those pom and tesselation shots. I was staring at them every time back in Crysis 2 with Maldohd mod and vanilla Crysis 3.Does anyone knows what game this is? it's an old game but those pebbles looks fucking sweet (the rock looks pretty good aswell)
Is it shadowfall?
Crysis 3
Crysis 2
GymWolf
Gold Member
That game fake reflections are pretty bad yeah, i always thought they were kinda bad on purpose to show how good rtx are, or they just didn't wasted time with doing good ssr because almost everyone would probably chose the rtx mode (not me)RT does really add alot to Spiderman, the SSR and cubemaps where hit and miss and mostly low quality.
This is how it was last gen when you got closer to buildings
gameplay PS4 Pro
And this is how the SSR looked on the ground
When i have a couple of minutes to spare i'm gonna post some good fake reflections, but you don't have to go further than stuff like tlou2 or even yakuza kiwami 2.
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GymWolf
Gold Member
I feel like many modern games have just detailed but kinda flat looking textures in the walls or ground.Yup thats Killzone: SF, i love those pom and tesselation shots. I was staring at them every time back in Crysis 2 with Maldohd mod and vanilla Crysis 3.
Crysis 3
Crysis 2
This shit looks fire.
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Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
Not enough games use tesselation! Especially on next gen consoles. It's why Demons Souls Remake looks so phenomenal. It's why the PC version of Metro Exodus looks much better than console.
I know it's an expensive technique but a good dev team should be able to pull it off.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
looks like KZSF. Found this link while searching for this image but cant find it on the page. the links seem to be broken.Does anyone knows what game this is? it's an old game but those pebbles looks fucking sweet (the rock looks pretty good aswell)
Is it shadowfall?
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Tesselation was huge on Crysis 2 and Crysis 3 and tbh a lot of PS3 era games on PC. I remember every game would come with a tesselation setting that would completely tank the framerate lol. Sadly PS4 era games just focused on photogammtery and left tesselation out.
Demon Souls is one game that goes balls out using tessellation.
ResetEraVetVIP
Member
TLOU II did reflections good too…
Exoil
Member
Are you for real? You can't post a video of someone walking around, barely moving the camera around and when they do the sensitivity is dialed down to 0 and make the claim that 30fps is not choppy or unstable.
When you're not playing Horizon like it's a walking simulator 30fps is choppy and unstable as hell and no amount of motion blur or denial can change that.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Those are actually faked. They basically replay the game or re-render it like another room behind the mirror or something like that. It's not an actual reflection.