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[Klosshufvud]

Gamers love to defend shitty anti consumer practices. They have this bizarre attachment to corporations which is why we see downgrades after downgrades because they know lethal 01 and other corporate stooges will wage a war on their behalf.

We are in the third fucking year of this Gen. Finally getting next Gen only games like dead space, forspoken, Star Wars and suicide squad in back to back months and they all look worse than horizon a last gen game. If that’s not laziness, i don’t know what is.

Laziness is a very clumsy term and doesn't come even close to describing the reasons why the games differ in visual quality. Sony studios are generally considered to have generous budgets and deadlines. A studio like GG has invested a ton in its Decima engine and also shares tech with other Sony studios. On top of that, their priorities are in two consoles, not five. They also are under less pressure to monetize the game as first party games are meant to sell a whole console and not just a game.

Lazy is a bad term to use since video game industry is infamous for burning out good talent and having them flee to other fields. There is a brain drain of skilled engineers in the industry and it's a growing problem. These are multi-facetted issues at work here and a simple derogatory term doesn't explain the problems. You may just as well ask yourself why devs are being held hostage to unreasonable target renders of pure fantasy wish thinking.

 

[ChiefDada]

Laziness is a very clumsy term and doesn't come even close to describing the reasons why the games differ in visual quality. Sony studios are generally considered to have generous budgets and deadlines. A studio like GG has invested a ton in its Decima engine and also shares tech with other Sony studios. On top of that, their priorities are in two consoles, not five. They also are under less pressure to monetize the game as first party games are meant to sell a whole console and not just a game.

Lazy is a bad term to use since video game industry is infamous for burning out good talent and having them flee to other fields. There is a brain drain of skilled engineers in the industry and it's a growing problem. These are multi-facetted issues at work here and a simple derogatory term doesn't explain the problems. You may just as well ask yourself why devs are being held hostage to unreasonable target renders of pure fantasy wish thinking.

I take it you've never engaged with SlimySnake or stumbled across one of his many batshit ramblings/complaints prior to this?

 

[alloush]

I take it you've never engaged with SlimySnake or stumbled across one of his many batshit ramblings/complaints prior to this?

Haha, c'mon guys cut Slimy some slack. I agree with most of what he is saying and share his sentiments/frustrations. It is unacceptable to get games after years of development looking like PS3 games that's just unacceptable even more so that these said games are next-gen only, and we, the consumers who paid top dollar to acquire these new consoles, have every right to be upset and call the devs out. Now whether they are lazy or something else we have every right to question their practices and call them out.

 

[hussar16]

This is their first game in 7 years. Why should they be given more time than that?

They revealed forspoken 4 years after shipping ff15. If they spent 4 years just building the engine only to find out that engine doesn’t gel with their vision of the game then they are incompetent buffoons if not lazy. Couldn’t care less if it’s laziness or incompetence. The game simply shouldn’t look like that on a next Gen system.

This isnt a launch game. Square Enix delayed this game over and over again. They weren’t rushed. They just chose to downgrade it over and over again instead of fixing the underlying issues. Gotham knights is another good example. Game is clearly cpu bound but instead of fixing the bottlenecks related to creating coop instances in an open world they just shipped it as a 30 fps locked game on consoles. After 9 full years of dev time. Who cares if it’s laziness or not? This is simply not acceptable.

At some points it's not "bottlenecks" these console simply can't handle alot. Just have to accept that fact and move on.nearly every game now gets delayed to get downgraded for performance issues

 

[alloush]

 

[alloush]

Impressive stuff. James Cameron is something else man, would love for him to direct a videogame at least once:

 

[alloush]

https://www.gamesradar.com/marvels-...e-actor-still-has-a-little-bit-of-work-to-do/

 

[OCASM]

Filmmakers discover variable framerates. Yuck.

 

[SlimySnake]

Filmmakers discover variable framerates. Yuck.

*higher framerates.

Avatar's action scenes and especially the underwater scenes look amazing. it's like you are there.

 

[OCASM]

*higher framerates.

Avatar's action scenes and especially the underwater scenes look amazing. it's like you are there.

That "improvement" was made 10 years ago. Here they're talking about changing the framerate on a scene-by-scene basis.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

At some points it's not "bottlenecks" these console simply can't handle alot. Just have to accept that fact and move on.nearly every game now gets delayed to get downgraded for performance issues

That's BS. These consoles are so much more powerful than ps4 pro and xb1x. It's incompetent/"lazy" devs or greedy publishers not giving the devs enough time. There's no reason that a console 2 5-3x more powerful than a ps4 pro should be putting out a game like Forspoken that looks worse than FF15. There are just more incompetent devs producing technically disappointing games this gen then should be given the hardware. Just having such better CPU's and SSD's should be enabling devs to easily surpass anything we saw last gen.

The examples are there- miles Morales, demon's Souls, forza, Horizon, Ratchet etc

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

I take it you've never engaged with SlimySnake or stumbled across one of his many batshit ramblings/complaints prior to this?

In a world of the blind, the one eyed man is king

 

[solidus12]

In a world of the blind, the one eyed man is king

In french it sounds even sexier: Au pays des aveugles, le borgne est roi.

 

[alloush]

That's BS. These consoles are so much more powerful than ps4 pro and xb1x. It's incompetent/"lazy" devs or greedy publishers not giving the devs enough time. There's no reason that a console 2 5-3x more powerful than a ps4 pro should be putting out a game like Forspoken that looks worse than FF15. There are just more incompetent devs producing technically disappointing games this gen then should be given the hardware. Just having such better CPU's and SSD's should be enabling devs to easily surpass anything we saw last gen.

The examples are there- miles Morales, demon's Souls, forza, Horizon, Ratchet etc

You know, I am glad Forspoken bombed on Metacritic. The devs should know by now that if they ship a half-assed game said game is gonna get called out and bomb on the reviews end. It was languishing in the 60s last time I checked and deservedly so. That shit is utterly unacceptable, a next-gen only game looking AND playing like that deserves the critique it is getting.

 

[alloush]

Filmmakers discover variable framerates. Yuck.

Genuine question, why's that bad?

 

[Filben]

Filmmakers discover variable framerates. Yuck.

Yeah, I found that really annoying and preferred the 24fps version when I went in a second time. In one shot focusing Na'vi you have 48fps,then the camera cuts to someone else and it is 24fps. It's annoying in games (especially without VRR) and also in movies.

Just make it consistent goddammit.

 

[Cr1ptkeeper]

Filmmakers discover variable framerates. Yuck.

You mean the variable framerate was by design?? When seeing the movie in the theatre I thought the variable framerate was due to the projector used, like those image "enhancing" options you have on tv's.
The inconsistent framerate was extremely noticable to me and almost ruined the movie.

 

[OCASM]

Genuine question, why's that bad?

As an example: stable 24fps looks fine but going from 48fps down to 24fps makes the latter look very choppy.

You mean the variable framerate was by design?? When seeing the movie in the theatre I thought the variable framerate was due to the projector used, like those image "enhancing" options you have on tv's.
The inconsistent framerate was extremely noticable to me and almost ruined the movie.

Yeah, they're calling this crap "Motion Grading".

 

[OCASM]

More on the variable framerate topic (and why it sucks):

 

[Gorgyles]

I'm in the camp of PS5 and XSX not impressing at all.
The cost of taking a game from 1080p to 4k is too high to be worth it.
I'd rather those resources be spent on effects and lighting and ray tracing.

I really thought we'd have more physics going on.
Fluids and objects and smoke. Mixed with Ray Tracing.
Fully Immersive environments.

FluidNinja runs on UE4
does simulations of water, smoke, mud, etc...
Love to see this in games

 

[SlimySnake]

Yeah, I found that really annoying and preferred the 24fps version when I went in a second time. In one shot focusing Na'vi you have 48fps,then the camera cuts to someone else and it is 24fps. It's annoying in games (especially without VRR) and also in movies.

Just make it consistent goddammit.

If they make it consistent then it would look like a cartoon like the hobbit. Just go to YouTube and watch the will Smith ang lee movie. It is 60 fps all the time and looks ridiculous.

James Cameron knows that some shots just wont work 48 fps. It’s distracting for only a few shots but overall it makes underwater scenes and most action scenes look and feel amazing. It is designed to reduce the ghosting effect in 3d and remove the judder you get from panning the camera.

 

[Art The Clown]

Monster Hunter Rise is the new gold standard for other devs to follow. Absolute treat.

 

[Filben]

It’s distracting

too much for my taste to give it a pass for it. I still enjoyed it, but found the 24fps IMAX experience better.

But neither 24 nor 48fps makes or breaks this movie.

 

[GymWolf]

Edit

 

[Neilg]

Honestly the fact that GTA6 dev was running on PS4 was worrying for me. I mean I get it the leaks that we saw were prolly pre-alpha or whatever

There's a very good chance that the way they've built the engine is pretty modular and what we saw was the build where they're just dumping assets in and testing scripts / doing mission design. With development cycles as long as they have, they need to find a way of working which doesnt lock them into the final look too early.

They can force the ps4 version of the engine to load lower LOD assets so that more of the team is able to contribute to a build, while the native PS5 version of the engine is wildly in progress without a functioning reflection shader or lighting that doesnt flicker like mad. They have to have a system to develop both sides simultaneously.
I suspect that the PS5 edition of GTA5 was them testing this working process. It wasnt a significant upgrade, but as a test to see how long it's going to take to 'port' GTA6 before release, it would have been invaluable.

 

[DynamiteToadie]

If they make it consistent then it would look like a cartoon like the hobbit. Just go to YouTube and watch the will Smith ang lee movie. It is 60 fps all the time and looks ridiculous.

James Cameron knows that some shots just wont work 48 fps. It’s distracting for only a few shots but overall it makes underwater scenes and most action scenes look and feel amazing. It is designed to reduce the ghosting effect in 3d and remove the judder you get from panning the camera.

It's definitely more than just a "few shots". There is no consistent language with how he used the fps switches. Above water at 24 fps and underwater at 48 fps would probably have been fine, but he definitely didn't do that. Defend it all you want, and maybe even some people didn't notice it (I envy them) but it was handled pretty poorly. Most of the movie was animated anyways. They could have done full on 48 fps and it would have been more than fine in 3D.

 

[SlimySnake]

It's definitely more than just a "few shots". There is no consistent language with how he used the fps switches. Above water at 24 fps and underwater at 48 fps would probably have been fine, but he definitely didn't do that. Defend it all you want, and maybe even some people didn't notice it (I envy them) but it was handled pretty poorly. Most of the movie was animated anyways. They could have done full on 48 fps and it would have been more than fine in 3D.

I'm not defending it. I admit it was distracting. I just know how poor some shots look in 48 and 60 fps because ive seen the Hobbit and Gemini man and that was far more distracting than any of the switches.

I agree that he shouldnt be switching between scenes but if he thought it was necessary then who am i to disagree with the greatest technical filmmaker of our time.

Where I disagree is that we shouldnt have 48 fps movies or fluctuating framerates in order to keep things consistent. This isnt video games where dropping framerates below 30 causes input lag and other issues that affect gameplay. this is a straight up passive experience that most people will eventually get used to. The benefits of higher framerates in some shots outweigh the negatives which are a necessary evil to prevent characters looking like they are walking in fast forward like charlie chaplin which was the case in the hobbit.

 

[CGNoire]

I agree with others this Gen so far has been a massive letdown. The devs have shown zero proof they even give 2 shits about pushing the envelope instead just wasting all the power on res and charging a $10 tax to bute. I have zero plans on jumping in at all if shit doesnt pick up. Maybe my 1st gen skipped.

 

[Robbinhood]

I think Ratchet and Demons Souls are gorgeous. Unfortunately, we have to "just wait" for the non cross gen to blow us away. But I have no doubt those games will blow us away.

 

[DynamiteToadie]

I'm not defending it. I admit it was distracting. I just know how poor some shots look in 48 and 60 fps because ive seen the Hobbit and Gemini man and that was far more distracting than any of the switches.

I agree that he shouldnt be switching between scenes but if he thought it was necessary then who am i to disagree with the greatest technical filmmaker of our time.

Where I disagree is that we shouldnt have 48 fps movies or fluctuating framerates in order to keep things consistent. This isnt video games where dropping framerates below 30 causes input lag and other issues that affect gameplay. this is a straight up passive experience that most people will eventually get used to. The benefits of higher framerates in some shots outweigh the negatives which are a necessary evil to prevent characters looking like they are walking in fast forward like charlie chaplin which was the case in the hobbit.

I suppose so, but all I know is that it felt inconsistent and distracting to me and to a lot of people. James Cameron is a great filmmaker, but he isn't perfect, and I think, imo and others, that this was a mistake. Maybe 48 fps across the whole film would have felt cartoony, but there were already so many scenes at that framerate - both human and Navi and outside the water and not - that I just didn't understand the weird, inconsistent switching between framerates, especially just single reaction shots here and there. But hey, it is what it is, and after it's life in the theater, it won't be an issue going forward. It'll be interesting to watch at home in 24 fps without 3D. Will definitely lose a lot of the magic, but maybe the consistent framerate will add something else.

 

[Represent.]

Aside from Forza, which looks great, its just more PS4 looking games from the MS Show. Absolutely horrendous showing graphically.

Who the fuck in this industry has the balls to push these consoles?

 

[SlimySnake]

I agree with others this Gen so far has been a massive letdown. The devs have shown zero proof they even give 2 shits about pushing the envelope instead just wasting all the power on res and charging a $10 tax to bute. I have zero plans on jumping in at all if shit doesnt pick up. Maybe my 1st gen skipped.

Just saw the MS show. Next gen game after next gen game and they look literally worse than most last gen games we have seen so far.

Redfall is an arkhane game. I get it. They dont give a shit about graphics. Never have though I do remember Dishonored on PC looking very good.

High Fi is a cartoon game. No idea who wants to play cartoony games in 2023 but im sure there is a small audience out there for it. Still weird Mikami is wasting his time or his studio's time on these B games.

But Forza, my god. WTF. How can it be next gen only? Target 4k 60. Have RT reflections and RT GI and STILL look worse than Forza Horizon 5 and GT7? Too last gen games that dont even look next gen to begin with?

I have no idea what is going on here. One, why would you target such a high res? Two, why implement RT for more accurate GI instead of improving your lighting engine to make it look at least on par with GT7's. It's almost like they just shoe-horned in the RT like all the other studios have done instead of going back to the drawing board and changing their engine to have better looking trackside detail and better lighting. This is a game 6 years in development. SIX YEARS. They used to make a Forza game every 2 years.

What is going on???

 

[alloush]

G

There's a very good chance that the way they've built the engine is pretty modular and what we saw was the build where they're just dumping assets in and testing scripts / doing mission design. With development cycles as long as they have, they need to find a way of working which doesnt lock them into the final look too early.

They can force the ps4 version of the engine to load lower LOD assets so that more of the team is able to contribute to a build, while the native PS5 version of the engine is wildly in progress without a functioning reflection shader or lighting that doesnt flicker like mad. They have to have a system to develop both sides simultaneously.
I suspect that the PS5 edition of GTA5 was them testing this working process. It wasnt a significant upgrade, but as a test to see how long it's going to take to 'port' GTA6 before release, it would have been invaluable.

Great post and you might be right. But what worries me is the fact they even have a PS4 version at all, you know. GTA6 if turns out to be that massive, otherworldly game we are all anticipating it to be then there is no way that game will even be able to load up on a last-gen console let alone be a fully playable game on it.

Having said that, I have full trust in Rockstar, they never disappoint and create the greatest, most detailed games ever made, but at the same time I am slowly but surely losing faith in devs and publishers so..

 

[alloush]

I agree with others this Gen so far has been a massive letdown. The devs have shown zero proof they even give 2 shits about pushing the envelope instead just wasting all the power on res and charging a $10 tax to bute. I have zero plans on jumping in at all if shit doesnt pick up. Maybe my 1st gen skipped.

Just wait, don't lose hope just yet, every time I lose hope I remember The Matrix demo and I then regain that lost hope!

 

[alloush]

Wow, very disappointed with that MS show, I cannot believe what I am seeing, shit-ass looking next-gen games that look worse than the last-gen ones, pretty ridiculous. I am still holding hope though and that is largely due to The Matrix demo if it weren't for it I would have lost all hope for this gen honestly. Let's see what Spidey 2 holds for us, seems like it will be one of Insomniac's biggest games ever made.

 

[SlimySnake]

Wow, very disappointed with that MS show, I cannot believe what I am seeing, shit-ass looking next-gen games that look worse than the last-gen ones, pretty ridiculous. I am still holding hope though and that is largely due to The Matrix demo if it weren't for it I would have lost all hope for this gen honestly. Let's see what Spidey 2 holds for us, seems like it will be one of Insomniac's biggest games ever made.

2014 racing game.

Still not been topped because devs dont want to bother upgrading trackside detail, weather simulations, and lighting. You know the actual stuff people notice. I am convinced that Sony isnt patching this game to run at 4k 60 fps because it would expose PD as frauds. The IQ is the only thing holding this game back. It looks rough on 4k tvs at times because of all the aliasing, but looks great on my 1080p 55 inch.

Also shocking how a 30 fps game has a better sense of speed than 60 fps games like Forza and GT.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

2014 racing game.

Still not been topped because devs dont want to bother upgrading trackside detail, weather simulations, and lighting. You know the actual stuff people notice. I am convinced that Sony isnt patching this game to run at 4k 60 fps because it would expose PD as frauds. The IQ is the only thing holding this game back. It looks rough on 4k tvs at times because of all the aliasing, but looks great on my 1080p 55 inch.

Also shocking how a 30 fps game has a better sense of speed than 60 fps games like Forza and GT.

It seems to me like at the start of the PS4 generation, devs really worked hard on lighting and realistic materials, but as the generation went on, things started to look cartoony and plastic again.

 

[sncvsrtoip]

Also shocking how a 30 fps game has a better sense of speed than 60 fps games like Forza and GT.

30fps generaly look more realistic than 60 but good luck with playig sim racing game in 30 fps ;d

 

[SlimySnake]

30fps generaly look more realistic than 60 but good luck with playig sim racing game in 30 fps ;d

I could excuse GT and Forza Motorsport last gen when they had to target 60 fps, but this gen? Nah, they have 5-8x more power in GPU alone. The CPU is 7x more powerful. Go ahead and add that motion blur Evo used to give it that excellent sense of speed. Use the GPU to push more trackside detail which will also help sell the sense of speed as you whiz past trees and other environmental detail.

Dont waste it on rendering native 4k pixels when 1440p or 4kcb should do and definitely dont waste it on expensive RT that doesnt even make that big of a difference.

 

[SlimySnake]

The Matrix demo if it weren't for it I would have lost all hope for this gen honestly. Let's see what Spidey 2 holds for us, seems like it will be one of Insomniac's biggest games ever made.

Next Gen Graphics Fidelity Thread Right Now:

 

[Turk1993]

2014 racing game.

Still not been topped because devs dont want to bother upgrading trackside detail, weather simulations, and lighting. You know the actual stuff people notice. I am convinced that Sony isnt patching this game to run at 4k 60 fps because it would expose PD as frauds. The IQ is the only thing holding this game back. It looks rough on 4k tvs at times because of all the aliasing, but looks great on my 1080p 55 inch.

Also shocking how a 30 fps game has a better sense of speed than 60 fps games like Forza and GT.

Then you start playing the game and it looks like this




It looked great for its time and still has one of the best weather ever, but come on man the game doesn't come close to the recently released racing gmaes or even end of last gen racing games. And yes fucking Sony needs to patch this game asap. It deserves to run 4K60 with decent IQ.

 

[arkhamguy123]

Starting to think sans Starfield (a premium multiplat Microsoft just bought basically. Like if Skyrim were bought out to be exclusive) The only times I'll be impressed with next gen are from the PS5 exclusives. It seems the Series S is proving to be a bit of an anchor. Redfall and Forza 8 range from passable to bad in the case of the former. The studios just don't have the money, talent, manpower, time, or all 4 on top being tethered to a PS4 Pro basically.

I have high hopes for the Playstation studios next gen only games. Last of us part 1 is kinda weak for next gen only as is Returnal but Ratchet and Demon Souls give me hope.

 

[OCASM]

I'm not defending it. I admit it was distracting. I just know how poor some shots look in 48 and 60 fps because ive seen the Hobbit and Gemini man and that was far more distracting than any of the switches.

I agree that he shouldnt be switching between scenes but if he thought it was necessary then who am i to disagree with the greatest technical filmmaker of our time.

Where I disagree is that we shouldnt have 48 fps movies or fluctuating framerates in order to keep things consistent. This isnt video games where dropping framerates below 30 causes input lag and other issues that affect gameplay. this is a straight up passive experience that most people will eventually get used to. The benefits of higher framerates in some shots outweigh the negatives which are a necessary evil to prevent characters looking like they are walking in fast forward like charlie chaplin which was the case in the hobbit.

Big framerate drops always make the lower framerate look choppy. It will always be distracting. This is worse than pure HFR.

 

[Lethal01]

High Fi is a cartoon game. No idea who wants to play cartoony games in 2023 but im sure there is a small audience out there for it.

You mean aside from basically the entire Japanese audience and Nintendo's entire audience, so probably at absolute minimum a third of current console owners.
We need far more stylized games, they always end up looking better than realistic ones and we don't have to waste time complaining about light from the floor not bouncing correctly onto the ceiling..

 

[It's all in the wrist]

2014 racing game.

Still not been topped because devs dont want to bother upgrading trackside detail, weather simulations, and lighting. You know the actual stuff people notice. I am convinced that Sony isnt patching this game to run at 4k 60 fps because it would expose PD as frauds. The IQ is the only thing holding this game back. It looks rough on 4k tvs at times because of all the aliasing, but looks great on my 1080p 55 inch.

Also shocking how a 30 fps game has a better sense of speed than 60 fps games like Forza and GT.

I played Drive Club last year. It looks AND plays like crap.

 

[Gorgyles]

Drive Club looks great, but it's old and a little jaggy.
They nailed some crucial aspects about lighting and scale and motion.
I find it an absolute joy to look at, even now.

 

[SlimySnake]

Then you start playing the game and it looks like this




It looked great for its time and still has one of the best weather ever, but come on man the game doesn't come close to the recently released racing gmaes or even end of last gen racing games. And yes fucking Sony needs to patch this game asap. It deserves to run 4K60 with decent IQ.

When you stop and take pictures yes, but in motion it still has that amazing sense of speed thanks to the 3d trees and other trackside detail which despite looking somewhat barren in those screens actually has a lot more detail than GT7 and Forza 8. Evo didnt make the game for photomode. They made the game for how people play racing games. Traveling at insane speeds. It's smart and ingenious VFX decisions that are completely MIA in GT7 and especially Forza 8 which has the added benefit of being next gen only.

The only reason DC looks like crap on modern displays is because of their launch window AA tech and lack of any kind of upscaling. Batman AK also suffers from this. These games looked incredible on 1080p tvs, but awful on 4k tvs. If you have one of those older 55 inch TVs laying around, you can test this. The game still looks stunning on those tvs. Ive been lucky enough to Batman AK on PC in native 4k, but thanks to Sony's stubborness, their best looking racing game isnt getting the support it deserves.

 

[Hawking Radiation]

https://www.gamesradar.com/marvels-...e-actor-still-has-a-little-bit-of-work-to-do/

Couldn't they use other words to describe the game.

'Astonishing' and 'Massive' don't give me a hard-on. Like not even a little stir in my trousers. Like Fuck all.

 

[SkyHighTrees]

we have already seen the evolution from Driveclub on Dirt 5. It's not impressive no more

 

[analog_future]

Everyone in this thread has lost their damn minds.

Forza looked absolutely jaw dropping today. Incredible on my 77” C2.

Comparing it to fucking Drive Club? You have to be kidding me.