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[SlimySnake]

That is exactly what developers are doing now with retail videogames it’s just the hardware isn’t fast enough man.

They have been lowering the resolution to aim for higher level of fidelity and using upscaling techniques for like almost a decade now, we all can objectively see this.

Video games will have the likeness of CG, but actually matching CG that’s not going to happen for a long ass time.

I dont know if thats the case. I see all the games Sony, MS and third parties have put out this gen and they are all targeting native 4k 30 fps at the least.

Ratchet actually had so much headroom left that they added a native 4k 40 fps mode which then turned into a 4k 50 fps mode when VRR let them unlock the framerate.

Demon Souls is also native 4k 30 fps. They tried to pretend that they had targeted 60 fps the entire time, but im not buying it. if they really wanted a 60 fps mode, they couldve made a 1080p 60 fps performance mode like the one they had in SOTC.

TLOU Part 1 is doing the same thing. native 4k 30 fps. 1440p 60 fps. Identical graphics to TLOU2 despite being next gen only. Clearly, the high resolution requirements are holding them back from increasing visual fidelity.

That leaves Forza Horizon 5, GT7, Horizon and GOW, cross gen games, all of which target native 4k on the PS5 instead of updating the graphics to take advantage of better hardware. No idea why GT7 and FH5 couldnt downgrade to 1440p to get realtime ray tracing in gameplay, but both GOW and HFW do the same. If not ray tracing, go ahead and add better hair rendering like Fifa did. Or better looking character models like NBA2k22. It's crazy to me that third party sports franchises had these enhancements way back in 2020, but first party studios in 2022 are still phoning it in with simple native 4k resolution upgrades.

 

[Lumpyoatmeal]

I dont know if thats the case. I see all the games Sony, MS and third parties have put out this gen and they are all targeting native 4k 30 fps at the least.

Ratchet actually had so much headroom left that they added a native 4k 40 fps mode which then turned into a 4k 50 fps mode when VRR let them unlock the framerate.

Demon Souls is also native 4k 30 fps. They tried to pretend that they had targeted 60 fps the entire time, but im not buying it. if they really wanted a 60 fps mode, they couldve made a 1080p 60 fps performance mode like the one they had in SOTC.

TLOU Part 1 is doing the same thing. native 4k 30 fps. 1440p 60 fps. Identical graphics to TLOU2 despite being next gen only. Clearly, the high resolution requirements are holding them back from increasing visual fidelity.

That leaves Forza Horizon 5, GT7, Horizon and GOW, cross gen games, all of which target native 4k on the PS5 instead of updating the graphics to take advantage of better hardware. No idea why GT7 and FH5 couldnt downgrade to 1440p to get realtime ray tracing in gameplay, but both GOW and HFW do the same. If not ray tracing, go ahead and add better hair rendering like Fifa did. Or better looking character models like NBA2k22. It's crazy to me that third party sports franchises had these enhancements way back in 2020, but first party studios in 2022 are still phoning it in with simple native 4k resolution upgrades.

This generation of consoles is an enigma, none of the big players went ahead and did the typical asset bump with newer hardware. Glad I didn’t waste my money.

 

[supernova8]

Yes, Tekken 8 looks horrible IMO…whats so hard about making a fighting game with only two characters on screen at once look like CGI?

I'm probably being too harsh but look at what we got on PS3/Xbox 360 in terms of Fight Night Round 4 (wasn't cross-gen)


And then sort of scale that up to what we should be getting for fighting games.



Even ESBC/Undisputed looks more impressive than Tekken 8. Sure there's not a lot going on in the background but according to their press page the company is only 34 people. Assuming some of that is admin, they probably have about 30 developers in total. Compare that to Bandai Namco studios, which has over 1,000 employees. No idea how many of them are allocated to Tekken but I'd imagine it's more than 34 (or could be more than 34 if they wanted it to be).

 

[supernova8]

I definitely agree with this. I love this series so far, but I'm sometimes taken out of the experience when I go from a beautiful cutscene with detailed NPC, great lighting, and beautiful animations to another objective and the characters look two gens behind. This is probably my biggest gripe with last gen games overall. So much inconsistent detail.

Exactly that's why BOTW manages to "immerse" me so much more than "realistic" games because there's complete consistency across all the models and animations. Nothing feels out of place.

 

[Neilg]

But my point was that CG nowadays is leaps and bounds ahead of the native 4k next gen only games we have received so far this gen. Id rather devs focus on lowering the resolution

I'm in total agreement, I didn't mean to be such a stickler for semantics, sorry. I believe this gen is the highest resolution games will render at - every gen moving forward will be upscaled with AI. Data is now not an issue, and next gen resolution will no longer be an issue due to dedicated upscaling processors - it will all be down to the art team. And people will still be dissapointed, but then the comparisons of talent become a bit easier to make.

 

[hussar16]

I dont know if thats the case. I see all the games Sony, MS and third parties have put out this gen and they are all targeting native 4k 30 fps at the least.

Ratchet actually had so much headroom left that they added a native 4k 40 fps mode which then turned into a 4k 50 fps mode when VRR let them unlock the framerate.

Demon Souls is also native 4k 30 fps. They tried to pretend that they had targeted 60 fps the entire time, but im not buying it. if they really wanted a 60 fps mode, they couldve made a 1080p 60 fps performance mode like the one they had in SOTC.

TLOU Part 1 is doing the same thing. native 4k 30 fps. 1440p 60 fps. Identical graphics to TLOU2 despite being next gen only. Clearly, the high resolution requirements are holding them back from increasing visual fidelity.

That leaves Forza Horizon 5, GT7, Horizon and GOW, cross gen games, all of which target native 4k on the PS5 instead of updating the graphics to take advantage of better hardware. No idea why GT7 and FH5 couldnt downgrade to 1440p to get realtime ray tracing in gameplay, but both GOW and HFW do the same. If not ray tracing, go ahead and add better hair rendering like Fifa did. Or better looking character models like NBA2k22. It's crazy to me that third party sports franchises had these enhancements way back in 2020, but first party studios in 2022 are still phoning it in with simple native 4k resolution upgrades.

None of those games look next gen or have next gen engine used

 

[Dolodolo]

All I’m seeing is downgrades from trailers. Tekken 8 let me down big time. Do we think if Spider-Man 2 doesn’t look like that trailer, and looks exactly like miles morales, then the rest of this gen will disappoint.

I don't think Spiderman 2 will disappoint you

 

[Falc67]

I don't think Spiderman 2 will disappoint you

Hopefully not. Want to see another trailer soon.

 

[KXVXII9X]

Exactly that's why BOTW manages to "immerse" me so much more than "realistic" games because there's complete consistency across all the models and animations. Nothing feels out of place.

Yep, exactly. I will choose stylized over realistic most times partially due to this reason.

 

[alloush]

A fun little video comparing TLOU the game to the tv show:

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

 

[hussar16]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Looks like if forspoken ran on unreal engine 5

 

[Lethal01]

Looks like if forspoken ran on unreal engine 5

On an RTX 7090

 

[supernova8]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Really my search of reviews for the demo on Youtube seem to be people are either on the fence or don't like it. Maybe I watched the wrong reviews.

 

[MidGenRefresh]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Still looks like the most generic fantasy human mind could imagine.

 

[Salmon]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Who like the demo? It was pure crap.

 

[alloush]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Based on what people said after they played the demo seems like most don't like it. Having said that, I always ask myself this question whenever I watch an unbelievable CG trailer, when are we going to see games looking like that in real-time whilst playing the game? Fantastic stuff visually.

 

[Hugare]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Played the demo for 10 minutes yesterday and immediately deleted this freaking thing from my console

Traversal and combat feel really good, imo. But world design and graphics? Jesus

IQ looks terrible in all modes. Seems like they didnt update the terrible TAA from FF XV.

The world looks worse than FF XV, a 2016 game

They should shut down Luminous Studio and distribute the developers to Yoshi-P and Nomura, 'cause its trash

 

[SlimySnake]

Based on what people said after they played the demo seems like most don't like it. Having said that, I always ask myself this question whenever I watch an unbelievable CG trailer, when are we going to see games looking like that in real-time whilst playing the game? Fantastic stuff visually.

looking at HFW, i think we can get there by 2027 or 2028 or whenever ND and GG release their next gen only game.

The Horizon FW CG trailer also looks absolutely spectacular and considering the fact Horizon looks this good on a 1.8 tflops system at 900p, I think GG can get there if they target 1080p with TSR like Epic did with Matrix.

The real question is will they settle for low resolutions like that. I used to think Sony's cinematic driven studios didnt give a shit about 60 fps and native resolutions but after Demon Souls, Ratchet and TLOU remake, im not so sure. Something has changed over at Sony. The new crop of people care more about framerate than pushing visuals. I dont know whats going on. Maybe getting those CG visuals is hard and they dont want to put in the work anymore. They definitely keep talking about work life balance and not crunching. Im guessing the standards have fallen at these studios.

 

[alloush]

looking at HFW, i think we can get there by 2027 or 2028 or whenever ND and GG release their next gen only game.

The Horizon FW CG trailer also looks absolutely spectacular and considering the fact Horizon looks this good on a 1.8 tflops system at 900p, I think GG can get there if they target 1080p with TSR like Epic did with Matrix.

The real question is will they settle for low resolutions like that. I used to think Sony's cinematic driven studios didnt give a shit about 60 fps and native resolutions but after Demon Souls, Ratchet and TLOU remake, im not so sure. Something has changed over at Sony. The new crop of people care more about framerate than pushing visuals. I dont know whats going on. Maybe getting those CG visuals is hard and they dont want to put in the work anymore. They definitely keep talking about work life balance and not crunching. Im guessing the standards have fallen at these studios.

Well, apart from the few of us who care about visuals I reckon most people would rather play a high fps game over a gorgeous-looking one. My buddy and I always get into these arguments over which is more important and what would we rather have high fpr or great visuals I obviously always lean towards better visuals especially for single-player story driven games but I think I am in the minority here!

Having said that I really hope you are right and by 2028 we get real-time visuals like these CG trailers or at least close to them.

 

[SlimySnake]

Well, apart from the few of us who care about visuals I reckon most people would rather play a high fps game over a gorgeous-looking one. My buddy and I always get into these arguments over which is more important and what would we rather have high fpr or great visuals I obviously always lean towards better visuals especially for single-player story driven games but I think I am in the minority here!

Having said that I really hope you are right and by 2028 we get real-time visuals like these CG trailers or at least close to them.

Yeah, the success of COD proves that most do prefer 60 fps. However, we still had all these GOTY winners like GTA, Red Dead, TLOU, Uncharted, and AC that put graphics fidelity over framerate. I have no idea whats happened to those devs. GTA leaks looked very underwhelming and I dont care how much damage control devs do on twitter, but that footage looked PS4 quality AT BEST and the dev was done on PS4. It is definitely going to be one of these faux next gen only games even if it comes out in 2025.

 

[alloush]

Yeah, the success of COD proves that most do prefer 60 fps. However, we still had all these GOTY winners like GTA, Red Dead, TLOU, Uncharted, and AC that put graphics fidelity over framerate. I have no idea whats happened to those devs. GTA leaks looked very underwhelming and I dont care how much damage control devs do on twitter, but that footage looked PS4 quality AT BEST and the dev was done on PS4. It is definitely going to be one of these faux next gen only games even if it comes out in 2025.

Honestly the fact that GTA6 dev was running on PS4 was worrying for me. I mean I get it the leaks that we saw were prolly pre-alpha or whatever but I couldn't but feel a tad disappointed and a bit worried about the visuals more so when I learned the dev was done on PS4. But time till tell. One thing that gives me hope about GTA 6 is the fact that the bar is very very high for Rockstar to deliver especially after skipping a whole gen and miling GTA 5 as well as raising the bar hella high with RDR2 along with the anticipation should mean an awesome GTA 6 game.

 

[hussar16]

Played the demo for 10 minutes yesterday and immediately deleted this freaking thing from my console

Traversal and combat feel really good, imo. But world design and graphics? Jesus

IQ looks terrible in all modes. Seems like they didnt update the terrible TAA from FF XV.

The world looks worse than FF XV, a 2016 game

They should shut down Luminous Studio and distribute the developers to Yoshi-P and Nomura, 'cause its trash

It's the upscaling .ppl don't understand while it upscale to 4k it creates muddy visuals in motion with alot of artifacts and blur

 

[alloush]

 

[GymWolf]

It looks ok i guess?!

 

[alloush]

It looks ok i guess?!

Honestly I don't get the hype around the visuals as you said they look ok. I just posted these here to hear people's opinion on them.

 

[GymWolf]

Honestly I don't get the hype around the visuals as you said they look ok. I just posted these here to hear people's opinion on them.

The very first trailer was pretty good, but the recent one was meh personified.

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

 

[ResetEraVetVIP]

Really my search of reviews for the demo on Youtube seem to be people are either on the fence or don't like it. Maybe I watched the wrong reviews.

Well that was my impression from alot of Twitter posts but maybe it’s different.

 

[Klosshufvud]

looking at HFW, i think we can get there by 2027 or 2028 or whenever ND and GG release their next gen only game.

The Horizon FW CG trailer also looks absolutely spectacular and considering the fact Horizon looks this good on a 1.8 tflops system at 900p, I think GG can get there if they target 1080p with TSR like Epic did with Matrix.

The real question is will they settle for low resolutions like that. I used to think Sony's cinematic driven studios didnt give a shit about 60 fps and native resolutions but after Demon Souls, Ratchet and TLOU remake, im not so sure. Something has changed over at Sony. The new crop of people care more about framerate than pushing visuals. I dont know whats going on. Maybe getting those CG visuals is hard and they dont want to put in the work anymore. They definitely keep talking about work life balance and not crunching. Im guessing the standards have fallen at these studios.

What a stupid post. Are you honestly oblivious to what happened recently that allowed Sony devs to finally push 60 fps? PS5.

And don't give me that shit that the games would look even better if 60 fps version didn't exist. The reason PS4 didn't have toggle was due to already low baseline on top of massive bottlenecks that a resolution drop couldn't bypass. The standards are higher than ever since now they actually have to ensure a 60 fps baseline which requires more work across the board. But the pay off is well worth it. A game has zero reason running 4K if it's gimped to a 30 fps lock anyways. Even visually you gain more motion clarity going to 1440p60fps instead.

 

[SlimySnake]

What a stupid post. Are you honestly oblivious to what happened recently that allowed Sony devs to finally push 60 fps? PS5.

And don't give me that shit that the games would look even better if 60 fps version didn't exist. The reason PS4 didn't have toggle was due to already low baseline on top of massive bottlenecks that a resolution drop couldn't bypass. The standards are higher than ever since now they actually have to ensure a 60 fps baseline which requires more work across the board. But the pay off is well worth it. A game has zero reason running 4K if it's gimped to a 30 fps lock anyways. Even visually you gain more motion clarity going to 1440p60fps instead.

huh? there were plenty of 60 fps games last gen. Call of Duty, Titanfall, BF1, Nier Automata, Nioh, Halo 5, Resident Evil 7, and much much more. Sony devs just chose not to take a hit on graphical fidelity like those other games did and it wasnt just because of the jaguar CPUs.

And I dont really care if you think the 60 fps is worth it or if you prefer the motion clarity over graphics fidelity. That has nothing to do with what I said. I literally said that they prefer higher framerate over higher fidelity which is what YOU WANT and PREFER. I am just pointing out the current state of the industry which is focusing more on 60 fps than pushing graphics fidelity like it used to and for some reason despite the fact that you agree with that assertion, you call it stupid. Bizarre.

 

[Klosshufvud]

huh? there were plenty of 60 fps games last gen. Call of Duty, Titanfall, BF1, Nier Automata, Nioh, Halo 5, Resident Evil 7, and much much more. Sony devs just chose not to take a hit on graphical fidelity like those other games did and it wasnt just because of the jaguar CPUs.

And I dont really care if you think the 60 fps is worth it or if you prefer the motion clarity over graphics fidelity. That has nothing to do with what I said. I literally said that they prefer higher framerate over higher fidelity which is what YOU WANT and PREFER. I am just pointing out the current state of the industry which is focusing more on 60 fps than pushing graphics fidelity like it used to and for some reason despite the fact that you agree with that assertion, you call it stupid. Bizarre.

You said standards had fallen. Which is the exact opposite for those particular studios. Those games you mentioned run 60 fps were either incredibly unstable (Nier) or online games. For this gen, even the SP open-world games have shifted to 60 fps. Which requires a ton more work from the devs since a higher frame rate baseline means working around countless bottlenecks.

 

[SlimySnake]

You said standards had fallen. Which is the exact opposite for those particular studios. Those games you mentioned run 60 fps were either incredibly unstable (Nier) or online games. For this gen, even the SP open-world games have shifted to 60 fps. Which requires a ton more work from the devs since a higher frame rate baseline means working around countless bottlenecks.

I dont know what bottlenecks you are talking about. Ive been playing games at 60 fps on PCs since well forever. Every console games run at 60 fps on PC so all of the bottlenecks have already been resolved. there is no extra work that needs to be done here for 99% of these games. Just look at how KZSF, Infamous, The Last Guardian, and GOW 2018 run at 60 fps without patch because the studios shipped the game with an unlocked framerate. It literally just worked thanks to the PS5's PC like BC design. And those are PS exclusives designed from the ground up on PS4, not PC like all other multiplatform games.

There are some games that are undoubtedly CPU bound and will need more work on the developers part but we havent seen any so far from Sony. What destruction, physics, AI, NPC interactivity and other CPU related tasks are these Sony 60 fps games pushing that requires a ton more work from the devs? Demon Souls is a straight up asset flip of a PS3 game. So is TLOU. Ratchet is doing nothing with the CPU as evidenced by the fact that it has no problems running the game at 50 fps at native 4k. What bottlenecks did Insomniac have to work around? Same goes for Spiderman literally runs at 100 fps in its performance mode at 1440p.

I legitimately think you have no idea what you are talking about. You are talking about SP open world games going 60 fps this gen when literally all of them are last gen so far. We have yet to see a true next gen game so far that doesnt look virtually identical to last gen games. Forget pushing CG visuals, we havent even seen a true leap yet. The best we have are Ratchet and Demon Souls which are topped by a cross gen HFW so how they hell can you praise these devs when we are in the third year of the generation without ANY kind of leap let alone a significant next gen leap.

You are getting 60 fps BECAUSE they are lazy. Because they are repackaging these games that automatically run at 60 fps thanks to years of PC dev and modern game development scaling framerate based on more powerful GPUs. The only extra work they do is add UI to enable or disable these 60 fps modes. And you are falling for it.

 

[Dirk Benedict]

I dont know what bottlenecks you are talking about. Ive been playing games at 60 fps on PCs since well forever. Every console games run at 60 fps on PC so all of the bottlenecks have already been resolved. there is no extra work that needs to be done here for 99% of these games. Just look at how KZSF, Infamous, The Last Guardian, and GOW 2018 run at 60 fps without patch because the studios shipped the game with an unlocked framerate. It literally just worked thanks to the PS5's PC like BC design. And those are PS exclusives designed from the ground up on PS4, not PC like all other multiplatform games.

There are some games that are undoubtedly CPU bound and will need more work on the developers part but we havent seen any so far from Sony. What destruction, physics, AI, NPC interactivity and other CPU related tasks are these Sony 60 fps games pushing that requires a ton more work from the devs? Demon Souls is a straight up asset flip of a PS3 game. So is TLOU. Ratchet is doing nothing with the CPU as evidenced by the fact that it has no problems running the game at 50 fps at native 4k. What bottlenecks did Insomniac have to work around? Same goes for Spiderman literally runs at 100 fps in its performance mode at 1440p.

I legitimately think you have no idea what you are talking about. You are talking about SP open world games going 60 fps this gen when literally all of them are last gen so far. We have yet to see a true next gen game so far that doesnt look virtually identical to last gen games. Forget pushing CG visuals, we havent even seen a true leap yet. The best we have are Ratchet and Demon Souls which are topped by a cross gen HFW so how they hell can you praise these devs when we are in the third year of the generation without ANY kind of leap let alone a significant next gen leap.

You are getting 60 fps BECAUSE they are lazy. Because they are repackaging these games that automatically run at 60 fps thanks to years of PC dev and modern game development scaling framerate based on more powerful GPUs. The only extra work they do is add UI to enable or disable these 60 fps modes. And you are falling for it.

I was wondering about those bottlenecks, too. Cause.. on PC, the main bottlenecks are almost always CPU or GPU. Lol. Interchangeable and depending on circumstance.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Slimey what are your thoughts on the Forspoken downgrade? It seems to be a Watch Dogs caliber downgrade if you look at the footage Square had shown at the Ps5 conference to how the game actually is now. Performance mode looks like ass too with its low res on top of the downgrade. Quality mode though downgraded too and has input lag

 

[SlimySnake]

I was wondering about those bottlenecks, too. Cause.. on PC, the main bottlenecks are almost always CPU or GPU. Lol. Interchangeable and depending on circumstance.

I think he's conflating the jaguar CPU bottlenecks with stuff like Gotham Knights which literally caps your GPU usage to 50% because the CPU is waiting on something. Even a poorly optimized demo like the Matrix which is CPU bound allows me to fully max out my GPU.

The new Raytracing games have a CPU and VRAM overhead and a potential for bottlenecks but in every RT game ive tried, my GPU is maxed out way before the CPU becomes a bottleneck. Probably because the RT is mostly shoehorned into last gen games so far.

If anything, the jaguar CPUs kept the devs from pushing the CPUs too hard and they instead chose to increase the graphics fidelity as well making everything open world thanks to the large increase in the VRAM pool. That hasnt changed just because we now have a powerful CPU because no one is taking advantage of the new CPUs.

 

[Klosshufvud]

I dont know what bottlenecks you are talking about. Ive been playing games at 60 fps on PCs since well forever. Every console games run at 60 fps on PC so all of the bottlenecks have already been resolved. there is no extra work that needs to be done here for 99% of these games. Just look at how KZSF, Infamous, The Last Guardian, and GOW 2018 run at 60 fps without patch because the studios shipped the game with an unlocked framerate. It literally just worked thanks to the PS5's PC like BC design. And those are PS exclusives designed from the ground up on PS4, not PC like all other multiplatform games.

There are some games that are undoubtedly CPU bound and will need more work on the developers part but we havent seen any so far from Sony. What destruction, physics, AI, NPC interactivity and other CPU related tasks are these Sony 60 fps games pushing that requires a ton more work from the devs? Demon Souls is a straight up asset flip of a PS3 game. So is TLOU. Ratchet is doing nothing with the CPU as evidenced by the fact that it has no problems running the game at 50 fps at native 4k. What bottlenecks did Insomniac have to work around? Same goes for Spiderman literally runs at 100 fps in its performance mode at 1440p.

I legitimately think you have no idea what you are talking about. You are talking about SP open world games going 60 fps this gen when literally all of them are last gen so far. We have yet to see a true next gen game so far that doesnt look virtually identical to last gen games. Forget pushing CG visuals, we havent even seen a true leap yet. The best we have are Ratchet and Demon Souls which are topped by a cross gen HFW so how they hell can you praise these devs when we are in the third year of the generation without ANY kind of leap let alone a significant next gen leap.

You are getting 60 fps BECAUSE they are lazy. Because they are repackaging these games that automatically run at 60 fps thanks to years of PC dev and modern game development scaling framerate based on more powerful GPUs. The only extra work they do is add UI to enable or disable these 60 fps modes. And you are falling for it.

You're not even replying to my points, just making up shit on your own. Of course a PS4 game will run well on PS5 unpatched because the PS5 hardware is so decisively superior in every way, that it can bruteforce PS4 games to 60 fps. Especially if the resolutions are already low like 1080p.

You completely miss the point regarding CPU bottlenecks. A shit optimized game WILL hit a CPU bottleneck fast. Just look at Gotham Knights. It is open world, it's fairly static yet crushes even top of the line CPUs. According to you, this would be a true next gen game. 30 fps across the board! The fact that the Sony games you mentioned are doing fine at 60 is just proof that Sony devs in fact aren't as bad as you initially claimed (a statement you seem to have forgotten now)

And yes, still the wait for that mythical "current-gen" game. Current-gen only games like Gotham Knights get absolutely clowned on by cross-gen games. You're never getting "CG" visuals because such a game would be too massive undertaking for any studio with a budget less than half a billion. It's not about "skill". It's about money and time. How are you oblivious to this? CG visuals aren't a priority because it's a huge money sink with diminishing returns regarding game quality. A game like Elden Ring can sell 20 million without such ambitions and for good reason.

Again, if you want a true current-gen experience, go ahead and play any of those poorly coded 30 fps only current-gen games. You seem to think those are more impressive feats than something like Horizon FW which is a true technical feat in every way.

 

[SlimySnake]

Slimey what are your thoughts on the Forspoken downgrade? It seems to be a Watch Dogs caliber downgrade if you look at the footage Square had shown at the Ps5 conference to how the game actually is now. Performance mode looks like ass too with its low res on top of the downgrade. Quality mode though downgraded too and has input lag

I mean we are talking about lazy devs and people are getting offended. I dont know what to call that downgrade other than laziness. Thats a next gen only game that was always a next gen only game. Revealed almost 3 years ago running on PS5. They didnt have to downgrade it. If you run into a bottleneck where a setting has to be downgrade then fine, downgrade a little, but if you keep doing it until it looks like a PS3 game then maybe its time to stop and just try and figure out why every single setting needs to be downgraded. Go back to the drawing board and make an engine that can handle your game.

I bet their engine isnt scaling properly with the fast traversal and magic particle effect heavy combat, and instead of revamping their engine, they just chose to go with low settings downgrading the PC version in the process I bet. So what ran fine when there was no combat or need for fast traversal early on in dev now just breaks under normal game load.

 

[Klosshufvud]

I mean we are talking about lazy devs and people are getting offended. I dont know what to call that downgrade other than laziness. Thats a next gen only game that was always a next gen only game. Revealed almost 3 years ago running on PS5. They didnt have to downgrade it. If you run into a bottleneck where a setting has to be downgrade then fine, downgrade a little, but if you keep doing it until it looks like a PS3 game then maybe its time to stop and just try and figure out why every single setting needs to be downgraded. Go back to the drawing board and make an engine that can handle your game.

I bet their engine isnt scaling properly with the fast traversal and magic particle effect heavy combat, and instead of revamping their engine, they just chose to go with low settings downgrading the PC version in the process I bet. So what ran fine when there was no combat or need for fast traversal early on in dev now just breaks under normal game load.

Or the fact that making a whole game based on CG-level visuals isn't financially viable for any studio? You seem to think there is a Forspoken version out there that is like the "tech demo" but such a thing doesn't exist. They make those renders as targets for development. FF13 did something similar with its E3 demo. The Forspoken we first saw never existed.

 

[SlimySnake]

You're not even replying to my points, just making up shit on your own. Of course a PS4 game will run well on PS5 unpatched because the PS5 hardware is so decisively superior in every way, that it can bruteforce PS4 games to 60 fps. Especially if the resolutions are already low like 1080p.

You completely miss the point regarding CPU bottlenecks. A shit optimized game WILL hit a CPU bottleneck fast. Just look at Gotham Knights. It is open world, it's fairly static yet crushes even top of the line CPUs. According to you, this would be a true next gen game. 30 fps across the board! The fact that the Sony games you mentioned are doing fine at 60 is just proof that Sony devs in fact aren't as bad as you initially claimed (a statement you seem to have forgotten now)

And yes, still the wait for that mythical "current-gen" game. Current-gen only games like Gotham Knights get absolutely clowned on by cross-gen games. You're never getting "CG" visuals because such a game would be too massive undertaking for any studio with a budget less than half a billion. It's not about "skill". It's about money and time. How are you oblivious to this? CG visuals aren't a priority because it's a huge money sink with diminishing returns regarding game quality. A game like Elden Ring can sell 20 million without such ambitions and for good reason.

Again, if you want a true current-gen experience, go ahead and play any of those poorly coded 30 fps only current-gen games. You seem to think those are more impressive feats than something like Horizon FW which is a true technical feat in every way.

lol you say i am making up shit and then you go on to pull the half a billion dollar figure to do CG visuals out of your ass.

At least you agree that it is possible with next gen hardware and we arent getting it because devs cant be bothered to put time and effort into it.

The funny thing is that you said next gen open world games were targeting 60 fps. And yet you bring up Gotham Knights which is 30 fps and next gen only, and literally the only open world game out right now thats next gen. So Gotham Knights devs are lazy. We agree on yet another thing.

It seems you just got triggered that I said Sony devs no longer want to target next gen visuals which is absolutely bizarre because you AGREE that they are targeting 60 fps at the expense of next gen fidelity. I actually brought up HFW in the very post you quoted and said it looks better than next gen only games. Once again, we agree. And yet you are trying to make it sound like I am nuts. Either we are both wrong or we are both nuts.

Go back and read through the whole exchange. This time, try not to get triggered by my criticisms of Sony devs. This applies to all devs. Look at the 2023 third party lineup. Hell, I literally said I expect them to have CG fidelity by 2027-2028 because they are talented enough. If you actually stop and read my posts, you will see that you've made a mountain out of a mole hill just because i dared to say their standards have fallen which looking at their entire 2022 lineup full of cross gen games is a cold hard fact. Studios like GG, SSM, ND and Insmoniac would have never dared to release cross gen games let alone next gen games without substantially pushing graphics fidelity.

 

[SlimySnake]

Or the fact that making a whole game based on CG-level visuals isn't financially viable for any studio? You seem to think there is a Forspoken version out there that is like the "tech demo" but such a thing doesn't exist. They make those renders as targets for development. FF13 did something similar with its E3 demo. The Forspoken we first saw never existed.

It literally says Playstation 5 development footage. What are you talking about that it didnt exist??

 

[Klosshufvud]

lol you say i am making up shit and then you go on to pull the half a billion dollar figure to do CG visuals out of your ass.

At least you agree that it is possible with next gen hardware and we arent getting it because devs cant be bothered to put time and effort into it.

The funny thing is that you said next gen open world games were targeting 60 fps. And yet you bring up Gotham Knights which is 30 fps and next gen only, and literally the only open world game out right now thats next gen. So Gotham Knights devs are lazy. We agree on yet another thing.

It seems you just got triggered that I said Sony devs no longer want to target next gen visuals which is absolutely bizarre because you AGREE that they are targeting 60 fps at the expense of next gen fidelity. I actually brought up HFW in the very post you quoted and said it looks better than next gen only games. Once again, we agree. And yet you are trying to make it sound like I am nuts. Either we are both wrong or we are both nuts.

Go back and read through the whole exchange. This time, try not to get triggered by my criticisms of Sony devs. This applies to all devs. Look at the 2023 third party lineup. Hell, I literally said I expect them to have CG fidelity by 2027-2028 because they are talented enough. If you actually stop and read my posts, you will see that you've made a mountain out of a mole hill just because i dared to say their standards have fallen which looking at their entire 2022 lineup full of cross gen games is a cold hard fact. Studios like GG, SSM, ND and Insmoniac would have never dared to release cross gen games let alone next gen games without substantially pushing graphics fidelity.

I find your understanding of "CG-level" visuals to be extremely shortsighted and ignorant. Devs aren't doing these Pixar-level open-world games because they're lazy or stupid. They don't make them because it's simply financially not a viable thing to do. The manpower and time required for such an undertaking is simply not in the interests of devs OR us for that matter. Red Dead 2 ran on PS4 and was a massive undertaking that took close to a decade to finish. Most devs don't want to go through that. And good thing that! Because despite RDR2 being visually a masterpiece, as a game it still has its shortcomings that the pretty graphics couldn't really soothe.

Again, your whole understanding of what CG level fidelity means to development is misguided and requires more research.

It literally says Playstation 5 development footage. What are you talking about that it didnt exist??

The same way SE claimed FF13 was PS3 footage and Sony claimed Killzone 2 demo was PS3 footage. It's just prototype target renders they make. They have a function to both impress us but also to set a target for the team to strive towards. But to think there is a complete Forspoken version out there that looks like the above is misguided. They didn't "downgrade" the game in the sense that they went back and undid all the hard work that looked like the quality of above picture. That's not how this works.

Edit: Also if you look at the original teaser trailer, they show a dragon at the end that looks straight up pre-rendered CG. No doubt about it.

 

[SlimySnake]

I find your understanding of "CG-level" visuals to be extremely shortsighted and ignorant. Devs aren't doing these Pixar-level open-world games because they're lazy or stupid. They don't make them because it's simply financially not a viable thing to do. The manpower and time required for such an undertaking is simply not in the interests of devs OR us for that matter. Red Dead 2 ran on PS4 and was a massive undertaking that took close to a decade to finish. Most devs don't want to go through that. And good thing that! Because despite RDR2 being visually a masterpiece, as a game it still has its shortcomings that the pretty graphics couldn't really soothe.

Again, your whole understanding of what CG level fidelity means to development is misguided and requires more research.

We have seen the matrix demo and we know exactly what it takes to get visuals of that level of fidelity on these consoles. It takes new graphics design paradigms and a willingness to settle for resolutions between 1080p and 1440p at 24 fps in cutscenes. And roughly 30 fps in gameplay. It took 80 people a total of 8 months. And this is the result.

The Red Dead example is ridiculous because it has already been topped by HFW which was done by 400 people at GG compared to 3000 Rockstar devs across 7 Rockstar studios who worked 5 years on it. If anything, UE5's nanite, realtime GI and ray traced reflections will only make game development faster by letting devs iterate quicker without having to bake in reflections and proper lighting in every scene.

The same way SE claimed FF13 was PS3 footage and Sony claimed Killzone 2 demo was PS3 footage. It's just prototype target renders they make. They have a function to both impress us but also to set a target for the team to strive towards. But to think there is a complete Forspoken version out there that looks like the above is misguided. They didn't "downgrade" the game in the sense that they went back and undid all the hard work that looked like the quality of above picture. That's not how this works.

Edit: Also if you look at the original teaser trailer, they show a dragon at the end that looks straight up pre-rendered CG. No doubt about it.

Sigh. KZ2? really? it was always CG. Just because Jack Tretton made a dumb comment which was quickly walked back doesnt mean Sony which has been using these disclaimers ever since the PS4 reveal going back to 2013 is now all of a sudden lying about Forspoken. They actually showed FF16 just a few months after Forspoken and mentioned that it was PC footage aiming for PS5 specs. Why would they go through all of that trouble only to make shit up about forspoken of all games.

The Dragon bit and other footage from that trailer is CG and doesnt have the PS5 development footage disclaimer shown. It is shown only during the gameplay shots.

and you need to stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that there was a complete version of Forspoken out there that was downgraded last week. I literally said that what worked 3 years ago in an early version of the game no longer ran well when they started adding particle combat and traversal into the game. this shit is getting old.

They didn't "downgrade" the game in the sense that they went back and undid all the hard work that looked like the quality of above picture. That's not how this works.

Every game thats ever been downgraded goes through this. We are now attempting to redefine the definition of downgrades and at 3AM, i am not about to rewrite history. Have a good night.

 

[Klosshufvud]

We have seen the matrix demo and we know exactly what it takes to get visuals of that level of fidelity on these consoles. It takes new graphics design paradigms and a willingness to settle for resolutions between 1080p and 1440p at 24 fps in cutscenes. And roughly 30 fps in gameplay. It took 80 people a total of 8 months. And this is the result.

The Red Dead example is ridiculous because it has already been topped by HFW which was done by 400 people at GG compared to 3000 Rockstar devs across 7 Rockstar studios who worked 5 years on it. If anything, UE5's nanite, realtime GI and ray traced reflections will only make game development faster by letting devs iterate quicker without having to bake in reflections and proper lighting in every scene.

Sigh. KZ2? really? it was always CG. Just because Jack Tretton made a dumb comment which was quickly walked back doesnt mean Sony which has been using these disclaimers ever since the PS4 reveal going back to 2013 is now all of a sudden lying about Forspoken. They actually showed FF16 just a few months after Forspoken and mentioned that it was PC footage aiming for PS5 specs. Why would they go through all of that trouble only to make shit up about forspoken of all games.

The Dragon bit and other footage from that trailer is CG and doesnt have the PS5 development footage disclaimer shown. It is shown only during the gameplay shots.

and you need to stop putting words in my mouth. I never said that there was a complete version of Forspoken out there that was downgraded last week. I literally said that what worked 3 years ago in an early version of the game no longer ran well when they started adding particle combat and traversal into the game. this shit is getting old.

Every game thats ever been downgraded goes through this. We are now attempting to redefine the definition of downgrades and at 3AM, i am not about to rewrite history. Have a good night.

-That Matrix demo runs at unplayable levels of frame rate for modern gaming standards. And even artistically, it's kind of dull and doesn't exactly inspire much confidence besides showing off realism. it's also just a tech demo so it's really a poor example and most likely not even a feasible project as a proper game. On a personal level, I also found it kind of visually off-putting in-game.

-The Red Dead example isn't ridiculous at all. I'm highlighting to you once again that these true open-world visual masterpieces are massive AAAA productions requiring huge budgets. Sony can afford it because they have an interest in showing off PS5 hardware. Rockstar can afford because GTAV. Horizon was absolutely not a cheap game to produce. Most studios can't afford such an undertaking without crazy amount of assurance it will sell 10+ million.

-I'm saying that disclaimer means literally nothing. it's so vaguely written it can mean anything. And even the text is basically inviting drastic changes to come. Again, a "game" didn't exist 3 years ago. It was just a target render showing off a very small portion of the game. You have literally no proof that the reason the game doesn't look like that today is because of flying and magic, since they were also advertised in the teaser trailer. It's just pure speculation on your end.

-The final point is; stop be so short sighted. You have to consider a game's visuals in the context of the actual game. We're never getting CG open-world games on the regular because it's simply too expensive undertaking for most studios. Even last gen, we saw how only very few devs could really push the envelope of visual fidelity, despite weaker consoles to work on. Cross-gen is not the bottleneck here. What's limiting devs is time, manpower, talent, player expectations and so on. The equation is way more complex than you attempt to paint it as. The Matrix exists as a sole purpose to show off a graphics engine. It's a poor example to use when discussing actual games that have to consider a million other equations that tech demo doesn't have to. Just look at FF16 which basically decided to say "fuck it" and exited the graphics arms race in favor of just making a game in a reasonable time frame.

 

[TonyK]

What Forspoken SHOULD look like…but so far many people love Forspoken based on the demo and review copies.

Weird, I had the opposite impression. But maybe it's because I didn't like the demo, so negative comments resonate more with me.

 

[Lethal01]

I bet their engine isnt scaling properly with the fast traversal and magic particle effect heavy combat, and instead of revamping their engine, they just chose to go with low settings downgrading the PC version in the process I bet. So what ran fine when there was no combat or need for fast traversal early on in dev now just breaks under normal game load.

That isn't laziness, That's not being allowed time and money. As you said they may need a whole engine revamp. And the developers would probably happy to be paid to make a new engine. But would the company be happy to pay it and spend another 5 years on it? Game not being given the budget and schedule of GTA6 isn't laziness.

So yeah, always being quick to jump to Laziness just makes you seem like an asshole. And not the "speak teh truth no matter who gets hurt kind" just the dumb kind.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

That isn't laziness, That's not being allowed time and money. As you said they may need a whole engine revamp. And the developers would probably happy to be paid to make a new engine. But would the company be happy to pay it and spend another 5 years on it? Game not being given the budget and schedule of GTA6 isn't laziness.

So yeah, always being quick to jump to Laziness just makes you seem like an asshole. And not the "speak teh truth no matter who gets hurt kind" just the dumb kind.

If the developers can't take criticism then they should've thought about that before showing footage clearly aimed at hyping people up for their game and presenting it in a way that the reasonable conclusion is thar the final game will look CLOSE to what they showed! This is the issue here. These downgrades of this size are unacceptable. What other conclusion are we to draw? They're either lazy, incompetent, or deceitful.

 

[Lethal01]

If the developers can't take criticism then they should've thought about that before showing footage clearly aimed at hyping people up for their game and presenting it in a way that the reasonable conclusion is thar the final game will look CLOSE to what they showed! This is the issue here. These downgrades of this size are unacceptable. What other conclusion are we to draw? They're either lazy, incompetent, or deceitful.

Nothing I said has to do with the devs being able to handle criticism or not.
I'm sure there are a ton of Deceitful people are Square. I'm saying the guy that would be in charge of making the engine would probably be happy to keep doing so and improve it, but he isn't the one who who decides how long he can work on it and he isn't the one who decides what to show in the trailer.

 

[SlimySnake]

That isn't laziness, That's not being allowed time and money. As you said they may need a whole engine revamp. And the developers would probably happy to be paid to make a new engine. But would the company be happy to pay it and spend another 5 years on it? Game not being given the budget and schedule of GTA6 isn't laziness.

So yeah, always being quick to jump to Laziness just makes you seem like an asshole. And not the "speak teh truth no matter who gets hurt kind" just the dumb kind.

This is their first game in 7 years. Why should they be given more time than that?

They revealed forspoken 4 years after shipping ff15. If they spent 4 years just building the engine only to find out that engine doesn’t gel with their vision of the game then they are incompetent buffoons if not lazy. Couldn’t care less if it’s laziness or incompetence. The game simply shouldn’t look like that on a next Gen system.

This isnt a launch game. Square Enix delayed this game over and over again. They weren’t rushed. They just chose to downgrade it over and over again instead of fixing the underlying issues. Gotham knights is another good example. Game is clearly cpu bound but instead of fixing the bottlenecks related to creating coop instances in an open world they just shipped it as a 30 fps locked game on consoles. After 9 full years of dev time. Who cares if it’s laziness or not? This is simply not acceptable.

 

[SlimySnake]

If the developers can't take criticism then they should've thought about that before showing footage clearly aimed at hyping people up for their game and presenting it in a way that the reasonable conclusion is thar the final game will look CLOSE to what they showed! This is the issue here. These downgrades of this size are unacceptable. What other conclusion are we to draw? They're either lazy, incompetent, or deceitful.

Gamers love to defend shitty anti consumer practices. They have this bizarre attachment to corporations which is why we see downgrades after downgrades because they know lethal 01 and other corporate stooges will wage a war on their behalf.

We are in the third fucking year of this Gen. Finally getting next Gen only games like dead space, forspoken, Star Wars and suicide squad in back to back months and they all look worse than horizon a last gen game. If that’s not laziness, i don’t know what is.