Support NeoGAF

[nature boy]

Something will happen, it has too.

The trust is lost, and any solution has to involve the IMF who has to take a bit of a hard line due to the pressure poorer countries are placing on Lagarde.

Not to mention the German parliament isn't particularly happy or friendly to the Greek government.

So the summit will be a waste of time.

 

[PJV3]

Hopefully behind the scenes politicians are working something out, fudge it and defer payments at least.

Not everyone in northern Europe gets a hard on watching a country disintegrate.

 

[And_Gignac]

Come in, China and Russia?. This play is far from over.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Come in, China and Russia?. This play is far from over.

Yes, because Russia has spare money to throw at Greece and China has strategic interests in the Mediterranean.

 

[Coriolanus]

Come in, China and Russia?. This play is far from over.

China wants the Piraeus port, tho.

 

[Any Questions]

Oh my. Things are gonna get interesting. I hope it work out for the best for all

 

[Majine]

Are they less or more fucked now? I don't know.

 

[fanboi]

Yes, because Russia has spare money to throw at Greece and China has strategic interests in the Mediterranean.

Yeah, Russia helping... the same Russia with the same GDP as Italy.

 

[Candescence]

Well, this is magnificently cathartic. Syriza now has a mandate to reject austerity, as it should be. A Grexit is likely now, but it's better than more austerity.

 

[ultraspank]

Per reuters front page.

"German Chancellor Merkel spoke to Hollande on Sunday night, both agreed that Greek referendum result must be respected: German government spokesman"

No idea if that means Merkel will force the Grexit now or will they change their tone and compromise.

So now referendum must be respected?
I want a rematch on the 2005 referendum then.

 

[oti]

Come in, China and Russia?. This play is far from over.

Japan. Greece is becoming the new Akihabara. Lewd anime gods everywhere.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

Yup, to me the EU seems like a bad joke and is just another sign of Europe's decline if their members leave like so

EU is not a federation. EU is not a country. Greece is an independent nation that is responsible for itself. If EU should just give money to Greece, no questions asked, then it would mean that EU is responsible for well being of Greece. But how can EU be responsible if it has no control over fiscal policy and budget of Greece? If EU is to be responsible for Greece, then we should also have absolute control over Greece. In practice this would mean that Greece would lose its independence. With independence comes responsibility for your own well being.

Greece can now either convince creditors that it can in fact pay their money back, or survive without further creditor support. In practice this could mean exit from Euro, but I don't see how this would be an exit from EU. EU was never a fiscal union, but perhaps that is part of the problem.

 

[giga]

Good. The monetary union was a mistake to begin with. Short term pain, yes, but a Grexit will pay off in the long run in future crises.

 

[PdotMichael]

thats what all European countries did before it was decided they should stop and borrow with interest. You can't look at Europe and say that worked well (not for European people anyway). Do you know there was a time in Europe when debt could be managed. That was the time when countries didn't have to borrow from private banks.

Also inflation isn't bad in itsel: if you index-link wages (among other things) to inflation I don't see what the problem is. Again some European countries had this mechanism before the Euro. It was even recommended by Maurice Allais (Nobel Prize of economy in 1988)

You may not want that money but I don't see how it's preferable to accumulate debt to the point you can never pay it back, like any European country

And in reality no one wanted drachma.

One of the reason why Greece wanted the Euro in the first place, to get cheap foreign capital and loans.

 

[Beefy]

So if Greece can say no to austerity, can other countries do the same?

 

[oti]

People on German TV saying Varoufakis should get fired left and right.

 

[pigeon]

The sad thing is that it is close to inevitable this will happen again unless there is serious reform to the Eurozone. As long as the Euro is overvalued for the more agriculturally based European economies, they will continue to run trade deficits. As their monetary policy is fixed, this can only be accomodated for by running budget surpluses. When the next big recession happens, the odds that at least one country gets caught between running the sort of budget surplus that destroys its economy or choosing to default is quite high. And lo, we'll go through all the same old familiar motions again. My bet is on Portugal.

I agree, and that's why I think it was (and is) so important for the EU's survival for Greece to get the non-austerity support it needs here. If the EU's primary purpose is to allow Germany to undercut the economies of the rest of Europe and force them into austerity, why would anybody want to belong to it?

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

People on German TV saying Varoufakis should get fired left and right.

Someone has to explain to me that reasoning...

 

[hidys]

People on German TV saying Varoufakis should get fired left and right.

Amazing.

How dense can people be to think that someone who just won a substantial political victory should just up and resign?

 

[oti]

Someone has to explain to me that reasoning...

- We can't take him seriously
- He called us terrorists
- He should visit Kobane to see what real terrorists are (not making this up)

 

[PodcastFips]

Someone has to explain to me that reasoning...

Because he basically accused everyone of being terrorists?

 

[Heartfyre]

Are they less or more fucked now? I don't know.

They were fucked no matter how they voted. This was always the case.

The problems remain the same after the vote. Trust is damaged between the Greek and European negotiators. All that's changed is the timbre of the negotiations starting on Tuesday. Greece has their local vox populi behind their current government, but it's the willingness to compromise on both sides that would bring a favourable resolution.

So if Greece can say no to austerity, can other countries do the same?

They can say no to austerity like Greece, but Greece isn't actually free of austerity just yet. Tuesday will reveal all.

 

[Setsu00]

Someone has to explain to me that reasoning...

I guess the reasoning behind this would be that Varoufakis accused the creditors of "terrorism".

 

[Ether_Snake]

Because he basically accused everyone of being terrorists?

Austerity has done more damage to Greece than IS.

 

[Rafy]

- We can't take him seriously
- He called us terrorists
- He should visit Kobane to see what real terrorists are (not making this up)

Please tell me you are kidding...

 

[pigeon]

EU is not a federation. EU is not a country. Greece is an independent nation that is responsible for itself. If EU should just give money to Greece, no questions asked, then it would mean that EU is responsible for well being of Greece. But how can EU be responsible if it has no control over fiscal policy and budget of Greece? If EU is to be responsible for Greece, then we should also have absolute control over Greece. In practice this would mean that Greece would lose its independence. With independence comes responsibility for your own well being.

This is really the question at play, because your position here might well be the correct one -- but it's a position in which nobody should ever join the European Union. Why would you sign up to become a German territory?

The United States fiscal union is effective because the federal government does assume responsibility for transfers from richer states to poorer ones. California pays millions of tax dollars to Louisiana every year and we don't assume the right to abrogate Louisiana's state government. If we want them to change their policies we work through the federal legislation system, if it's possible at all.

If the EU's not willing to do something along those lines, how can it survive?

 

[Setsu00]

Please tell me you are kidding...

It sounds like he's just quoting what people on TV said.

 

[PJV3]

People on German TV saying Varoufakis should get fired left and right.

He should offer to resign for the promise of a good deal and become a national hero.

 

[CrunchyB]

The sad thing is that it is close to inevitable this will happen again unless there is serious reform to the Eurozone. As long as the Eurozone is overvalued for the more agriculturally based European economies, they will continue to run trade deficits.

Yep, we need financial transfers from rich to poor Eurozone countries, no way around it. The former won't like it, but it's the only way the Euro will work.

 

[MonorailCat]

Yup, to me the EU seems like a bad joke and is just another sign of Europe's decline if their members leave like so

If greece wants free transfer money and "true union" they should just become a puppet state of germany.
Until then they themselves are responsible of running their budget.

 

[oti]

Because he basically accused everyone of being terrorists?

Yeah, that was dumb. I get that he isn't a politician and he doesn't have to. I wish more people would be as upfront as him. But calling partners terrorists to get more votes feels a bit like prom king elections tactics.

 

[la_briola]

Good. They did the right thing.

 

[Madness]

So if Greece can say no to austerity, can other countries do the same?

Yes. Pretty much unprecedented. Both the citizens and the government of an EU country told the commission to kick rocks. No more austerity. Imagine if the other countries struggling with their debt and own austerity did the same. First time a developed nation defaulted on debt to the IMF too.

 

[chadskin]

Officially confirmed:

eucopresident: I have called a #EuroSummit Tuesday evening at 18h to discuss situation after referendum in #Greece

https://twitter.com/eucopresident/status/617798910808039424

 

[Coriolanus]

He should offer to resign for the promise of a good deal and become a national hero.

His whole pre-election deal was saying that he'd stay FinMin only for the most turbulent period, and then he'd quit the position.

This was his "terrorism" quote, fwiw

“What they’re doing with Greece has a name: terrorism,” Varoufakis told Spain’s El Mundo. “What Brussels and the troika want today is for the yes [vote] to win so they could humiliate the Greeks. Why did they force us to close the banks? To instil fear in people. And spreading fear is called terrorism.”

Sorta true, not that it matters.

 

[d00d3n]

Grexit can't happen fast enough. Free these proud free thinkers from the shackles of banks/EU/ECB and let them try to make the best of the situation on their own. Young people in Greece who want their salary in a currency that allows them to travel abroad, buy imported goods and build a future for themselves should be welcomed to northern Europe if they want to move here.

 

[Beefy]

They can say no to austerity like Greece, but Greece isn't actually free of austerity just yet. Tuesday will reveal all.

So who do we think will be next to have this vote?

 

[Rafy]

It sounds like he's just quoting what people on TV said.

I know, I was just hoping it was some sort of joke.

I do agree that Varoufakis calling them terrorists was a bit too much.

 

[Ether_Snake]

If greece wants free transfer money and "true union" they should just become a puppet state of germany.
Until then they themselves are responsible of running their budget.

Great idea, Merkel should propose it.

 

[Majine]

They were fucked no matter how they voted. This was always the case.

I guess my question was badly constructed.

What I meant was, is their fucked-ness(tm) lesser or bigger after this result?

 

[norinrad]

- We can't take him seriously
- He called us terrorists
- He should visit Kobane to see what real terrorists are (not making this up)

Hahahaha tomorrow is going to be an awesome day, i can't wait to see what our Dutch media and politicians are going to say. Some won't be holding back, its mini Germany here

 

[2MF]

I don't always agree with Paul Krugman, but in this article he's spot on:

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/07/05/europe-wins/?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto

Europe Wins

(...)

we have just witnessed Greece stand up to a truly vile campaign of bullying and intimidation, an attempt to scare the Greek public, not just into accepting creditor demands, but into getting rid of their government. It was a shameful moment in modern European history, and would have set a truly ugly precedent if it had succeeded.

 

[nature boy]

I guess my question was badly constructed.

What I meant was, is their fucked-ness(tm) lesser or bigger after this result?

They can only blame themselves now.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Because he basically accused everyone of being terrorists?

I don't think creditors are everyone, and:

Terrorism is commonly defined as violent acts (or the threat of violent acts) intended to create fear (terror), perpetrated for an economic,[1] religious, political, or ideological goal, and which deliberately target or disregard the safety of non-combatants (e.g., neutral military personnel or civilians).

Dosn't seem that far from the truth, terrorism dosn't always implies the use of weapons and physical violence.

 

[Coriolanus]

I guess my question was badly constructed.

What I meant was, is their fucked-ness(tm) lesser or bigger after this result?

We'll see. We don't know for sure yet.

 

[Negotiator]

If greece wants free transfer money and "true union" they should just become a puppet state of germany.
Until then they themselves are responsible of running their budget.

That's like saying that Kentucky is a puppet state of Washington.

 

[Randomizer123454444]

This is really the question at play, because your position here might well be the correct one -- but it's a position in which nobody should ever join the European Union. Why would you sign up to become a German territory?

The United States fiscal union is effective because the federal government does assume responsibility for transfers from richer states to poorer ones. California pays millions of tax dollars to Louisiana every year and we don't assume the right to abrogate Louisiana's state government. If we want them to change their policies we work through the federal legislation system, if it's possible at all.

If the EU's not willing to do something along those lines, how can it survive?

I'm from Finland, part of EU and Euro. In theory I would support a country named "Europe" or "European Union". In practice, I don't trust the current EU members enough to hand over the control. We are a tiny country in comparison to Germany, France and UK. We would simply be forgotten and our special needs ignored. The only benefit (for us) that I can see is a united military force.

I think "European Union" as a country is possible, I clearly see that is where things have been headed. But I think that is still DECADES away. I hope the crisis in Greece won't unravel things. While the benefits of Euro for smaller countries is questionable, I think EU in general has provided a lot of benefits. For EU to be a country, people of Europe need to see themselves as Europeans first, citizens of their country second.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

This is really the question at play, because your position here might well be the correct one -- but it's a position in which nobody should ever join the European Union. Why would you sign up to become a German territory?

The United States fiscal union is effective because the federal government does assume responsibility for transfers from richer states to poorer ones. California pays millions of tax dollars to Louisiana every year and we don't assume the right to abrogate Louisiana's state government. If we want them to change their policies we work through the federal legislation system, if it's possible at all.

If the EU's not willing to do something along those lines, how can it survive?

Eurozone, not European Union, but yes, this so much. Currently, the Eurozone is set up in such a way that only the countries that have higher capital productivity than the Eurozone average benefit, with those with the most capital benefiting the most (i.e., Germany). Germany's entire economy is largely built around the fact that other Eurozone countries drag down the Euro; as such Germany can sell German products at far lower prices than international competitors and this has been *hugely* beneficial for the German economy - there's a reason why they're one of the few developed Western countries that still has a relatively strong industrial sector.

The cost of that, however, is that countries like Greece struggle because the Euro is set too high for them. In proper monetary unions, like, say, the United Kingdom, that's not a problem. London is more productive than Hull and so Hull struggles to sell goods in comparison to London, but it doesn't matter, because the system also has a fiscal union - taxes are raised on capital in London and spent on labour in Hull. The Eurozone doesn't have this fiscal union, and you can't have a functioning monetary union without one. The Eurozone is institutionally designed to benefit Germany (well, not exclusively Germany, in fairness, also other industrial nations like the Netherlands) by fucking over the agricultural ones. Greece is simply the first, the next time a recession hits the next few will once again be at risk.

 

[PdotMichael]

I don't think creditors are everyone, and:



Dosn't seem that far from the truth, terrorism dosn't always implies the use of weapons and physical violence.

battered wife syndrome or why does Greece still want to be part of that gang?

 

[Ganzlinger]

Wishing the best for Greece.