Ether_Snake
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It's a temporary measure until they make the Drachmas.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
- Thread starter Coriolanus
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It's a temporary measure until they make the Drachmas.
titiklabingapat
Member
It's probably because of the varying levels of corruption (perceived and real) in government and society. I'm not saying that Greeks are by their nature more corrupt, just that institutional corruption is more rampant in Greek government today. It probably explains the other disparities in other countries as well (Spain, Italy) and how the varying economies are growing (Spain is seen as less corrupt now hence their growth).
Negotiator
Member
Nah, they'll have to find a new black sheep (preferably from the South).
Good Job Bob
Member
Thanks for the vids.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is this sarcasm?
Ether_Snake
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If Greece exits, it's because they are forced out, which basically tells the markets that the next time a crisis hits a EZ member, especially if it's Italy, Spain or Portugal, an exit from the country is likely. It basically significantly undermines the Euro's long term viability.
People in Germany work.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Hopefully this wont be bad news for the rest of the Eurozone :X
Correct me if i am wrong (im trying to wrap my head around this), but basically Greece got loaned money to get its affairs and economy in order from the EU and IMF. They couldn't make their repayments because of reasons but now want to renegotiate or leave the Euro all together if they can't come to terms?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
It's to do with how currencies work. Suppose that Germany and Greece had two different currencies for a moment. Germany is an industrial economy. Industry tends to see quite good productivity rises over time - people making new machines and better technology that allow Germans to make more products. Greece is an agricultural economy. Agriculture doesn't tend to see very good productivity rises - wheat is wheat, it's difficult to invent faster growing wheat. Therefore, if you invest money in Germany, you get a better return than if you invest money in Greece.
This means people want to invest money more in Germany than they do Greece. So they try and buy more German currency than they do Greek currency, which drives up the price of German currency and drives down the price of Greek currency. The effect of this is to equalize the two countries - one has high returns on an expensive currency, the other low returns on a cheap currency, so that the supply and demand are met for each.
At the moment, Germany and Greece share the same currency. That means that the value of the currency is roughly halfway between them (not really true as Greece is much smaller than Germany, but there are other countries dragging the Euro down like Spain, Portugal, etc). That means Germany is now a really good offer - you can buy Euros for a mid-price and get high returns in Germany still. Greece is now a really bad offer. You buy Euros for a mid-price, but you get low returns on them if you put them in Greece.
In other words, Germany does well *because* Greece is doing badly. This is how all monetary unions work. California does well because if you invest money in California, you get a better return than you do in Mississippi. If the United States functioned the way the European Union did, Mississippi would probably be in a better position if they said "fuck the dollar, we need a cheap currency so people will buy our products". However, most monetary unions also have fiscal union - taxes get raised in California and spent on supporting Mississippi. That's not the case in the EU, and so countries like Greece have a choice - either run surpluses all the time and accept the drop in living standards, or run up debts. Greece has been attempting to accept the drop in living standards, but it has simply been too large. That takes us up to now.
If anyone wants a good, easy to understand primer on this, I recommend reading this: http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/anil.kashyap/research/papers/A-Primer-on-the-Greek-Crisis_june29.pdf
(Chicago Booth professor who previously worked at the Fed -- he still consults for them too.)
(Chicago Booth professor who previously worked at the Fed -- he still consults for them too.)
ultraspank
Member
participation would be 95% at least and the no would win by a large margin.
Let's make it happened!
U wot m8?
jakonovski
Member
It's the euro itself that is flawed, and austerity will continue eating small countries because they have no way of adjusting to economic downturns, which austerity itself causes. It's a vicious circle, you only need the initial downturn for the engine to start.
Rhomega Beta
Member
Gives a whole new meaning to the name "OxiClean"
alexandros
Banned
You should be ashamed for that comment. It is racist and incredibly disrespectful to the hundreds of thousands of Greeks who can't find any job to feed their families.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I wouldn't if I was Greek either. Issuing Euro IOUs would de facto be exiting the Euro.
MonorailCat
Member
what about the millions unemployed in Germany who are sick of the fact that tax money is going to greece, instead of creating jobs for them? Do they get a referendum?
Key word is if. If the ECB withdraws the BoGs request for ELA Greek banks are DOA and they have to go it alone and take appropriate action. Its not blackmail, just the reality.
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
At the moment, German tax money has gone to German banks.
Because doing anything else would mean having to reform the EMU. We can't really devalue the currency like another country like the US would be able to do.
Coriolanus
Banned
Linked in the op. Pretty decent read.
cm osi
Member
you forgot "they don't get pension at 50 years"
Captain Tuttle
Member
This is fascinating in a way, I just hope whatever happens is best for the Greek people.
Uh, considering Greece is at primary surplus (eg. it collects more than it spends before interest payments), or very near that, depending on which time slice we're considering....
what?
Tax money has mostly gone to banks - And not Greece banks - German, French, Italian banks.
Also, why does goddamn Germany rouse up so much stink about this? Their stake in the Greece debt is less than Italy+Spain's, which have a REAL unemployment problem, not that non-crisis number of 5% that's floating around in german.
This type of superiority complex from some insane fractions of Germany does nothing but make people nervous.
Locke Lamora
Member
S¡mon;170995046 said:
I know. But the data I found just can't seem to confirm the numbers in the screenshot.
*Tax income
PIB = GDP
Basically, Greece collects more money in taxes that the average in the EU
But those Greece guys are so lazy and corrupt.
What is the source of this data? Why should I trust a TV news graphic over an academic paper from authors at some of the world's top business schools
or comments from Greece's own former tax chief or this whitepaper from the Bank of Greece?
Not to mention all these major US news agencies (I'll omit European agencies to avoid accusations of bias):
http://www.npr.org/2015/03/31/396636955/greece-cracks-down-on-longtime-tax-evasion-problem
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ow-greek-tax-evasion-sunk-the-global-economy/
http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/07/11/dodger-mania
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/05/13/business/global/greek-tax-crackdown-yields-little-revenue.html
http://www.wsj.com/articles/greece-struggles-to-get-citizens-to-pay-their-taxes-1424867495
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...tclub-basements-focus-of-tax-evasion-dragnets
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
Yeah, I think it'll be digital as well, simply because as far as we know Greece isn't quite ready to launch a proper physical currency yet (which an IOU essentially is). That's going to make things... interesting, at least until a physical alternative is introduced. If Greece does default on on the 8th, the following 2-3 months before the new structures are in place will be absolutely rough for the people of Greece and my heart goes out to them/you.
Racist? Is this a joke?
Relaxed Muscle
Member
You mean all that tax money lent to Greece that went to German banks? How Germans feel about that?
Ether_Snake
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Ted Striker
Neo Member
Posts like the one you quoted don't deserve a response.
Ether_Snake
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When population doesn't agree with your position, say they're helping the Reds.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
That's the whole tax sums, VAT and other direct and indirect taxes, that also accounts as income on a country. Even if there's tax evasion in Greece, due to the rich people, you can see that Greece still collects lots of money in other ways from their people, more than most countries in Europe.
Coriolanus
Banned
Heh, that first one is fun.
also had quite a bit of horrifying data on my own country >_>
MonorailCat
Member
We don't get one because old people keep voting for the same two parties over and over again. And both of them don't give a fuck about true democracy.
Racist pretty much is a buzzword now, even if the both sides of the equation are white or same 'race'. At best your comment was ignorant, maybe ethnocentric thinking only Germans 'work', assuming you are both white (German, Greek).
Not at all. I think Greece is likely doing the best thing for themselves right now. That said Russia has been actively pushing for this direction for sometime. Most of the Current Greek Leadership are in close relations to Alexander Dugin. Russia will get its chance to be the big hero now. Maybe even get themselves a nice Mediterranean Port to base out of. Russia actively funds groups within the EU for moments like these.
Putin is having a good day because of our collective inability to reach a mutually beneficial compromise. German or Greek position makes no difference; division is what Russia is hoping for.
Coriolanus
Banned
What about the hundreds of billion Euros Greece has received from the EU since it joined it, bro?
Greece is said to have received 3 times more subventions from the EU than any other EU country.
These are the result of the taxes, I'm not talking about bailouts.
A plan that puts the debt at 118% of GDP in 2030 can't be a good plan, no matter how you try to spin that. A default is better than that plan. At least there is a chance of recovery from that by 2030.
The worse thing is that while Greece is shown as the devil, there is practically no country in eurozone (other than Germany) that is financially healthy at this point. The debt levels are just insane. Coincidentally (not really) the German economy is the one that benefits the most out of euro. I'm very curious about the reactions in the other euro countries after Greece will be kicked out as a bad tooth. Especially Portugal, Spain and Italy.
The worse thing is that while Greece is shown as the devil, there is practically no country in eurozone (other than Germany) that is financially healthy at this point. The debt levels are just insane. Coincidentally (not really) the German economy is the one that benefits the most out of euro. I'm very curious about the reactions in the other euro countries after Greece will be kicked out as a bad tooth. Especially Portugal, Spain and Italy.
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