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[KingSnake]

At one point, Europe should step away from the NATO and the US for a smaller centrally lead European army scaled to the entire union instead of one army per country with way higher overhead.

Looking forward to the discussion about how efficient are the German troops and how adaptive and low maintenance are Greek soldiers (after this whole crisis they will be used to eat less and treat themselves).

The US military is probably the #1 way minorities/poor move out of the lower class in the US. Cutting the military would be very bad for social mobility.

It saved my life.

BTW, how are Greek military wages? If they're decent, or you at least get some stability- surprised Greeks aren't having many of their best and brightest flock to the military.

You misunderstood my point. It's my fault for not making it clear. Given the Greece geopolitical position a cut in military expenses would be most probably very badly received by US. Or by NATO in general.

 

[Ted Striker]

Most countries guarantee public employment. That's literally the biggest reason people pick these jobs. Germany does this as well. The reason why it is done is because as administrations change, they would otherwise be able to put people of their interests in these positions firing the people who previously occupied them.

http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Klafthmonos_Square

"In the 19th century, Greek public servants were not permanent, but could be hired or sacked on a minister's whim. Following their dismissal, public servants would lament their fate in the square"

 

[M°°nblade]

Most countries guarantee public employment. That's literally the biggest reason people pick these jobs. Germany does this as well. The reason why it is done is because as administrations change, they would otherwise be able to put people of their interests in these positions firing the people who previously occupied them.

When you have a proper selection and solicitation system in which you let an independent institution perform these procedures, and adhere to auditing, you no longer need counterproductive measurements such as these.

We used to be in your situation, but we adapted. Civil servants can now get two 'yellow cards'. Third yellow card means red card -> you're fired, civil service or not

 

[M°°nblade]

Not enough added value in producing that unfortunately. I buy it produced locally and is just as good..

True, and Greece has competition from countries like Turkey and Denmark (Arla Foods) who offer 'resembling' products based on cow milk much cheaper. There's a 'Protected designation of origin' which is completely failing at it's job. There's also no marketing or anything behind it.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Spain, Portugal.

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/spain/government-budget-value
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/portugal/government-budget-value

 

[Ted Striker]

When you have a proper selection and solicitation system in which you let an independent institution perform these procedures, and adhere to auditing, you no longer need counterproductive measurements such as these.

We used to be in your situation, but we adapted. Civil servants can now get two 'yellow cards'. Third yellow card means red card -> you're fired, civil service or not

Civil servants can be fired for misconducts and disciplinary offenses.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I'm not denying "austerity" I'm claiming there's no relevant austerity, let alone "crippling" or "crushing" austerity.

Why didn't the Greek government cut down to 2006 spending levels? A 14% temporary cut when your revenues fall 20+% and are only going to get worse isn't going to stop your debt spiral. Especially when you were running deficits in the first place.

I don't think Greece was a burned out hellscape with the entire population starving in the streets at 2006 government spending.

You do realize that's just now how economies work, right? If you cut spending down to 2006 levels very slowly and gradually, over the course of say, a decade, you'd probably be okay. Attempting to do it overnight is what is damaging, because all sorts of people whose income is dependent on the system sustained by current spending no longer have income or have their income reduced or reduce their future expectations of their income. That means they drop spending, which means other people's income is also reduced (because less goods are being bought and less workers being paid), and the cycle repeats. That means that if you cut spending to 2006 levels immediately, your economy will definitely be worse than it was in 2006, when people had stable or even positive expectations of future growth that kept their spending higher. Like, that's econ 101.

There's also the fact that when the economy is suffering, state expenditure needs to be higher anyway, as there are more unemployed people to support, purely apart from any macroeconomic concerns. If 2006 was a period of high employment and low requirement of tax credits etc., then obviously state expenditure is going to be lower - you're not paying unemployment benefits and the like.

EDIT: Although to be honest, benji, you're a smart guy and I know you can work this out by yourself, so I'm pretty sure you're just trolling.

 

[Theonik]

http://wiki.phantis.com/index.php/Klafthmonos_Square

"In the 19th century, Greek public servants were not permanent, but could be hired or sacked on a minister's whim. Following their dismissal, public servants would lament their fate in the square"

Neat. I never looked up why it was called so.

When you have a proper selection and solicitation system in which you let an independent institution perform these procedures, and adhere to auditing, you no longer need counterproductive measurements such as these.

We used to be in your situation, but we adapted. Civil servants can now get two 'yellow cards'. Third yellow card means red card -> you're fired, civil service or not

And that's easier said than done. In the first place, the previous administrations were perfectly happy with the state of things. And again, this is the norm in many countries and modern solutions to these problems aren't standard practice. I'm interested in what your solution is though.

 

[M°°nblade]

Civil servants can be fired for misconducts and disciplinary offenses.

I know that. We had that as well 'in theory'.
In practice, you literally had to pee against your boss's leg to get a warning.

 

[ElTorro]

This is what I expect to happen in the next days and weeks.

1. Greece will submit a proposal on time. The proposal will either be deliberately vague and/or contain demands that the creditors will very likely not accept. The rational behind this to create some sort of shitsandwich-win/win situation where you either get an unlikely not-that-shitty deal or a likely better-than-shitty-deal Grexit. Anything else is an impossibility anyway for the Greek government after the referendum. Tsipras high-fives himself for having managed to stay in power. He gives his speech writer a raise and his entire family some positions in the government.
2. The creditors will reject it.
3. The already prepared mutual blamefest will commence with pompous rethoric.
4. That polish weirdo in the European Parliament demands the destruction of the EU and the installment of monarchy once again. The rest agrees that the EU will recover politically from this circus.
5. Anti-Euro parties around Europe will gain traction. Far-left parties will remain stable or lose some support from protest voters.
6. Some shitty months for Greece, but with international support they will recover. They will definitely stay in the EU and at least officially keep the Euro alongside a secondary currency.
7. The IMF fires Lagarde. Top-level bankers will exchange high-fives. The Euro states will continue to ignore their debts.

 

[M°°nblade]

And that's easier said than done. In the first place, the previous administrations were perfectly happy with the state of things. And again, this is the norm in many countries and modern solutions to these problems aren't standard practice. I'm interested in what your solution is though.

I'm well aware political clientelism isn't solely Greek.
But just because it's the norm 'in function' doesn't mean it's the norm in 'numbers'.

Germany has 4 million civil servants for 80 million citizens.
Greece has 'around' 1 million civil servants for just 11 million citizens and still fails at basic functions like keeping tax, unemployment benefits and pension fraud, etc ... under control.

Like I said, you need independant and regulated selection bureaus as a pass through to combat political clientelism.

One of the benefits Greece has (by running behind) is that they only need copy what other countries did to implement such systems.

 

[My words exactly!]

When you have a proper selection and solicitation system in which you let an independent institution perform these procedures, and adhere to auditing, you no longer need counterproductive measurements such as these.

We used to be in your situation, but we adapted. Civil servants can now get two 'yellow cards'. Third yellow card means red card -> you're fired, civil service or not

Τhis would be ideal to be frank. A preselection system to root out corrupted civil servants. In theory we already have a system in place but with the exception of radical cases, there have been no layoffs. A point system like the above sounds good.

Well, at least Belgium is severely cutting government spending. They cut defense budget in half, have a roadmap for trimming of the fat (mostly 'administrative' aka political employees')

Defence policy of Belgium is a totally different case than Greece for many reasons as outlined before

Why is there industry in Greece? Isn't the low income an advantage (like eg. in eastern europe countries). Are there no plans to attract multinationals?

We had a heavy industry but in the last 30 years the governments have actively sabotaged them in favor of foreign businesses.
Also, farmers were paid to drop their crops and have the state import agricultural goods (and inferior ones at that) from other states.
Multinationals are prefering to setup plants in the Balcans atm. Greek bureaucracy is another thorn here as well.

 

[Ted Striker]

I'm well aware political clientelism isn't solely Greek.
But just because it's the norm 'in function' doesn't mean it's the norm in 'numbers'.

Germany has 4 million civil servants for 80 million citizens.
Greece has 'around' 1 million civil servants for just 11 million citizens and still fails at basic functions like keeping tax, unemployment benefits and pension fraud, etc ... under control.

Like I said, you need independant and regulated selection bureaus as a pass through to combat political clientelism.

One of the benefits Greece has (by running behind) is that they only need copy what other countries did to implement such systems.

There are around 600k civil cervants in Greece, around the same ratio as in Germany.

 

[Alabamaman]

Greece has 'around' 1 million civil servants for just 11 million citizens and still fails at basic functions like keeping tax, unemployment benefits and pension fraud, etc ... under control.

That's because the people in the administration are the worst fraudsters. I doubt you would find a single uncorrupt official in Greece.

 

[oti]

We need a task force of Greeks who grew up in other countries. Vote for me. #otixeroforpresident

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Greece has 573,958 people employed directly by the state [note: this is not the same as civil servants, it includes e.g. teachers. The number of civil servants is a smaller section of that again] (http://apografi.yap.gov.gr/apografi/2015/Flows_2015E.htm). This is about 5.2% of the population. By contrast, Germany had 4.8 million in 2000 (sorry, I can't find any more recent data), which was about 5.8% of the population.

 

[benjipwns]

You do realize that's just now how economies work, right? I If you cut spending down to 2006 levels very slowly and gradually, over the course of say, a decade, you'd probably be okay. Attempting to do it overnight is what is damaging

I agree, but Greece has a serious debt and interest problem, they do need to cut faster than the last five years in order stop the seeming debt spiral, trimming around the edges is slowing their deficit but it's not making a dent really in the debt/interest. The interest alone is destroying any cuts made.

As you note the economy is in the shitter, which means the tax side of the equation won't work and is making things worse. Significant cuts that encourage all the other players can get them more leeway to smooth out the debt/interest growth.

They may have been put in this situation, but they've got the best shot to handle it and it's not stable enough for small cuts, if they can't stabilize the debt/interest situation then they'll never stabilize the government finances or the economic situation.

This is why debt spirals are so insidious. Even if Greece exits the Euro, they're still going to have all the core problems until they let the malinvestment clean itself out. They won't be able to print themselves into prosperity because nobody is buying.

They can't rely on the EU or IMF because too much of it is in the same situation if lesser, they're too afraid to take drastic steps to reverse anything, Greece could because it almost has nothing to lose at this point. Especially if China's little kerfuffle becomes something serious.

Slashing the public sector and general program spending while funneling part of that into a basic income might be able to get government reliant Greeks through the hump. Rather than continuing to try and operate services that cost too much to operate or maintain high salaries/wages.

"Never let a crisis go to waste" and serious reform against some of the problems (things going well or not) outlined in this thread could be ideal, even if it's not the terms the EU/IMF/etc. want.

He says as if any politicians will do anything except try to screw each other and blame others.

 

[iidesuyo]

Greece has 573,958 people employed directly by the state [note: this is not the same as civil servants, it includes e.g. teachers. The number of civil servants is a smaller section of that again] (http://apografi.yap.gov.gr/apografi/2015/Flows_2015E.htm). This is about 5.2% of the population. By contrast, Germany had 4.8 million in 2000 (sorry, I can't find any more recent data), which was about 5.8% of the population.

And then why is Greece so incredibly in dept compared people/dept? And why doesn't it do anything about it?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

And then why is Greece so incredibly in depth compared people/dept? And why doesn't it do anything about it?

Greece has reduced their debt. They have done more about it than any other country in Europe. Their debt as a percentage of GDP has gone up because their GDP has plummeted.

 

[benjipwns]

And then why is Greece so incredibly in depth compared people/dept? And why doesn't it do anything about it?

Spending cuts and tax increases are not popular. Spending increases and tax...well...avoidance is.

When you don't control your own currency you can't as easily tax the future citizens for current citizens. Especially if lenders demand payment and they are in much more significant positions of power than you.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

You showed some none-Eurozone members didn't have them as part of your point, so I showed some Eurozone members didn't either.

...Yes? I know what your post said. I just explained why it didn't disprove my argument like you seemed to think it did.

Or maybe there is a sign that countries that have had multiple financial problems in the past, will probably still be having them in the future.

It really isn't though. There is a fundamental difference in the solvency risk between a nation with its own floating currency currency and central bank and one committed to maintaining a peg or part of a currency union. As I said, Ireland and Spain had low debt and surpluses prior to the crisis. Japan and the US had the exact opposite, yet their bond rates didn't spike, because they were the only option for government securities denominated in their currency. Consequently, we saw multiple Eurozone nations with varying debt levels experience sovereign debt crises, whilst heavily indebted monetarily sovereign nations did not. If you can explain why that is just a coincidence, please do.

I'm not denying "austerity" I'm claiming there's no relevant austerity, let alone "crippling" or "crushing" austerity.

Why didn't the Greek government cut down to 2006 spending levels? A 14% temporary cut when your revenues fall 20+% and are only going to get worse isn't going to stop your debt spiral. Especially when you were running deficits in the first place.

I don't think Greece was a burned out hellscape with the entire population starving in the streets at 2006 government spending.

This is a bit of an odd post. A government's budget balance is a combination of exo and endogenous factors. You can't just take a level of spending (or taxation) from one year and declare it to be both a necessary and sufficient condition for producing the same economic outcomes in another (you mightn't have intended that but I'm just covering all bases from your post). Australia was doing pretty well in 2006. If you took the budget conditions then (surplus, under $100b in debt issued for the financial markets to play with) and applied them to the years after the GFC you'd have significantly reduced growth, higher unemployment and potentially the world's highest ratio of private debt to GDP introducing risk to the economy.

 

[Joni]

...Yes? I know what your post said. I just explained why it didn't disprove my argument like you seemed to think it did.

You are being selective on both Eurozone and non-Eurozone countries. I'm giving you examples of Eurozone countries that managed to level their interest rate spikes.

Consequently, we saw multiple Eurozone nations with varying debt levels experience sovereign debt crises, whilst heavily indebted monetarily sovereign nations did not. If you can explain why that is just a coincidence, please do.

We also saw multiple Eurozone nations with heavy debt not experience debt crisis and we saw non-Eurozone nations experience them. Like there is something else at play besides them just being in the Eurozone or not like general confidence in the specific country, the reactions of their politicians, ...

 

[Deleted member 231381]

We also saw multiple Eurozone nations with heavy debt not experience debt crisis and we saw non-Eurozone nations experience them.

He said monetarily sovereign, rather than Eurozone, in fairness. It's actually quite hard to find examples of defaults by nations that had full monetary sovereignty and weren't choosing to peg themselves to any other currency or commodity.

EDIT: In fact, I can't think of any.

 

[KingSnake]

I agree, but Greece has a serious debt and interest problem, they do need to cut faster than the last five years in order stop the seeming debt spiral, trimming around the edges is slowing their deficit but it's not making a dent really in the debt/interest. The interest alone is destroying any cuts made.

As you note the economy is in the shitter, which means the tax side of the equation won't work and is making things worse. Significant cuts that encourage all the other players can get them more leeway to smooth out the debt/interest growth.

They may have been put in this situation, but they've got the best shot to handle it and it's not stable enough for small cuts, if they can't stabilize the debt/interest situation then they'll never stabilize the government finances or the economic situation.

This is why debt spirals are so insidious. Even if Greece exits the Euro, they're still going to have all the core problems until they let the malinvestment clean itself out. They won't be able to print themselves into prosperity because nobody is buying.

They can't rely on the EU or IMF because too much of it is in the same situation if lesser, they're too afraid to take drastic steps to reverse anything, Greece could because it almost has nothing to lose at this point. Especially if China's little kerfuffle becomes something serious.

Slashing the public sector and general program spending while funneling part of that into a basic income might be able to get government reliant Greeks through the hump. Rather than continuing to try and operate services that cost too much to operate or maintain high salaries/wages.

"Never let a crisis go to waste" and serious reform against some of the problems (things going well or not) outlined in this thread could be ideal, even if it's not the terms the EU/IMF/etc. want.

He says as if any politicians will do anything except try to screw each other and blame others.

I think you are overlooking one important factor in your analysis. When you look at the government expenditures, they already include the public debt transactions and banks recapitalization and they have quite a big impact on the resulted budget deficit. With increasing interest rates, lower GDP and resulting lower budgetary incomes Greece is practically now a Ponzi scheme. New funds pay for old funds. The debt levels are so high that no government expenses cuts can realistically bring enough budgetary surplus to cover for the rolling debts in a significant way. Adding on top the impact that additional austerity measure have on GDP and you are in downwards spiral. IMF estimated that the debt will be reduced to 118% of GDP by 2030 under the current proposed measures for Greece.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

If Greece exits the Euro, it will be because they defaulted. If they defaulted, then by definition they're not struggling with interest repayments because they don't have any. That's where benji's argument just derails.

 

[KingSnake]

If Greece exits the Euro, it will be because they defaulted. If they defaulted, then by definition they're not struggling with interest repayments because they don't have any. That's where benji's argument just derails.

Yeah, And it will force Greek government to have a balanced budget, as they won't get any loans for quite some time. It will be very painful, but at least there is a chance of getting better.

I still don't understand why so many people would prefer to still pump money into Greece under the same mechanism as until now. Either you cut them some slack and let them breathe before getting the money back or let them default.

 

[PdotMichael]

Yeah, And it will force Greek government to have a balanced budget, as they won't get any loans for quite some time. It will be very painful, but at least there is a chance of getting better.

I still don't understand why so many people would prefer to still pump money into Greece under the same mechanism as until now. Either you cut them some slack and let them breathe before getting the money back or let them default.

But Greece can go that route anytime.

 

[Theonik]

But Greece can go that route anytime.

Not unless they default.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

But Greece can go that route anytime.

Well, we'll find out if they are going to by midnight.

 

[PdotMichael]

Not unless they default.

Yes, that was the point of the post string wasn't it?

 

[KingSnake]

But Greece can go that route anytime.

What route? Default? Or balanced budget?

Default will see today or Sunday.

Balanced budget? Not so much, I stated why in the post previous to the one you quote.

 

[Coriolanus]

It's kinda weird that if syriza does, in fact, end up bending the knee, i'll be cheering for the bundestag to tell everybody to get fucked and force a grexit.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's kinda weird that if syriza does, in fact, end up bending the knee, i'll be cheering for the bundestag to tell everybody to get fucked and force a grexit.

something something we do not kneel

 

[M°°nblade]

There are around 600k civil cervants in Greece, around the same ratio as in Germany.

Only recently:

According to government sources, the number of employees in the public sector has been cut from 913,000 at the end of 2009 to 681,392 on November 30 [2013]. Moreover, the annual expenditure on wage costs is reduced by over one-third. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...-servants-has-decreased/#sthash.sr5GhrOQ.dpuf

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Only recently:

According to government sources, the number of employees in the public sector has been cut from 913,000 at the end of 2009 to 681,392 on November 30 [2013]. Moreover, the annual expenditure on wage costs is reduced by over one-third. - See more at: http://greece.greekreporter.com/201...-servants-has-decreased/#sthash.sr5GhrOQ.dpuf

It's down even further from that - see above - my figures are up-to-date for Greece as of the end of last month.

 

[Theonik]

It's kinda weird that if syriza does, in fact, end up bending the knee, i'll be cheering for the bundestag to tell everybody to get fucked and force a grexit.

More likely to be Finland.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

More likely to be Finland.

Don't forget Estonia!

 

[M°°nblade]

Defence policy of Belgium is a totally different case than Greece for many reasons as outlined before

And how much of those reasons are still legitimate?
The Aegean dispute for example dates from 1996. There was an agreement almost 20 years ago.
Both Turkey and Greece are EU members now. The EU won't tolerate breaches or internal aggressors anno 2015.

Isn't there, by propaganda, artificially created paranoia among the Greeks to ensure defensive budgets?

 

[ClosingADoor]

And how much of those reasons are still legitimate?
The Aegean dispute for example dates from 1996. There was an agreement almost 20 years ago.
Both Turkey and Greece are EU members now. The EU won't tolerate breaches or internal aggressors anno 2015.

Isn't there, by propaganda, artificially created paranoia among the Greeks to ensure defensive budgets?

Turkey is most certainly not and EU member.

They are both NATO.

 

[Theonik]

And how much of those reasons are still legitimate?
The Aegean dispute for example dates from 1996. There was an agreement almost 20 years ago.
Both Turkey and Greece are EU members now. The EU won't tolerate breaches or internal aggressors anno 2015.

Isn't there, by propaganda, artificially created paranoia among the Greeks to ensure defensive budgets?

They are all legitimate and even if they weren't as long as Greece is in NATO they need to conform with their wishes especially because of Greece being of high geopolitical and geostrategic value.

Greece cannot leave NATO as they'd be SCREWED if they did.

Turkey is most certainly not and EU member.

They are both NATO.

It is important to remember that Greece had been a NATO member since 1952 as well as Turkey. NATO does not get involved in disputes between the two nations

 

[benjipwns]

Greece has already defaulted. They have the debt/interest as long as they're in the Euro.

If Greece exits and nobody props them up they won't have a scrip of any value. Humanitarian aid will be the only thing being distributed for years probably.

If they're determined to exit instead of taking another package to default on like the last ones and make a wild attempt put their finances in a more stable position then that's cool I suppose. But if economic conditions are already untenable, they're not going to get anything but worse.

2030 is a lifetime away, economic projections that far out are useless.

They probably should have just enforced those whole requirements to get into the EU instead of letting the financial institutions and governments paper over it all to meet silly deadlines.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Most countries guarantee public employment.

As in guarantee permanency? This would come as a surprise to me, if the case.

-----

So, for a change of pace from blame game bickering, in the [increasingly likely] event of Greece leaving the Eurozone, what does one think Greece needs to do in terms of economic reform to actually return to some form of prosperity?

Is having control of monetary policy the necessary and sufficient key?

 

[M°°nblade]

Turkey is most certainly not and EU member.

They are both NATO.

You're right.
Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia, and Turkey are all recognized as official candidates, and the latter three are undergoing membership talks atm.

 

[Theonik]

As in guarantee permanency? This would come as a surprise to me, if the case.

Yes, in most nations, Civil Servants receive special protected employment status to protect them against administration changes.

 

[KingSnake]

Greece has already defaulted. They have the debt/interest as long as they're in the Euro.

If Greece exits and nobody props them up they won't have a scrip of any value. Humanitarian aid will be the only thing being distributed for years probably.

If they're determined to exit instead of taking another package to default on like the last ones and make a wild attempt put their finances in a more stable position then that's cool I suppose. But if economic conditions are already untenable, they're not going to get anything but worse.

2030 is a lifetime away, economic projections that far out are useless.

They probably should have just enforced those whole requirements to get into the EU instead of letting the financial institutions and governments paper over it all to meet silly deadlines.

I agree with you here. Greece is in default de facto since 2009-2010. The money pumped into Greece since then were just to save the European economies. Because while the "banks are evil" theme is nice to discuss, a Greece default in 2009-2010 would have hurt badly the whole Europe by contagion of the biggest banks. That's why I hate the hypocrisy like "Europe saved Greece's ass in 2009-2010". Europe saved the banks and by that its own ass and it's good that they did that. And the Germans should get down from their high horses because the German banks did some awful investment decisions and haven't paid too much for that.

And yes 2030 is a lifetime away and any bailout plan that doesn't restructures the debt in one way or another is just hiding the garbage under the rug and making things even worse. As I said, currently the bailout is a Ponzi scheme.

So, for a change of pace from blame game bickering, in the [increasingly likely] event of Greece leaving the Eurozone, what does one think Greece needs to do in terms of economic reform to actually return to some form of prosperity?

Is having control of monetary policy the necessary and sufficient key?

Having control of monetary policy is not enough definitely. Because going into rampant inflation will solve nothing. So they still have to keep the budget under control, but it will give them a little more freedom with that. They will have also the debt payments pressure taken away for some time and a wise thing to do would be to direct those money into some useful investments rather that use it for civil servants salaries or whatever.

A weaker currency could also help the tourism industry and whatever low exports Greece has. Should made Greece also tempting for investments because of the cheaper work force, but that's more in the long run, as nobody will invest there in the first years after default.

 

[operon]

ECB only started buying Government bonds including Irelands with quantitative easing, Irish bong yields had been dropping before that.

 

[ElTorro]

So, for a change of pace from blame game bickering, in the [increasingly likely] event of Greece leaving the Eurozone, what does one think Greece needs to do in terms of economic reform to actually return to some form of prosperity?

One of Greece's general problems is the lack of industries with strong growth potential. The only ways to change that is to support entrepreneurship in tech-oriented industries and make the country attractive for foreign companies. The former would need further EU assistance, the latter, AFAIK, more governance stability and reliability. Wages should be low enough after a Grexit, and IIRC the level of education in Greece is high, despite the emigration of many highly qualified workers.

Regarding entrepreneurship however, Greece has always received a lot of EU subventions, and I am not sure what happened to them. Apparently they didn't kickstart enough tech industry.

 

[Chariot]

As in guarantee permanency? This would come as a surprise to me, if the case.

Yes, that's one reason why some public workers in Germany are known to be lazy and slow. Once you get "verbeamtet" you're basically secure forever unless you really fuck up hard. So some of them have next to no motivation to actually work hard, they get payed anyways until they retire.

 

[benjipwns]

One problem I see is how is Greece going to recapitalize their banks without outside help? They surely can't do it with a new currency of questionable value.

I suppose they could sell it to other EU nations for some Euros.

 

[Coriolanus]

Seems Tusk really is interested in telling people to get real

Tusk: Creditors must make proposals on Greek debt sustainability

Donald Tusk, EC president, says we have just three days to tackle the Greek crisis.

Speaking in Luxembourg, Tusk says that Greece remains the most pressing issue for Europe. We stand ready to do whatever is necessary to protect the stability of the euro area.

I spoke with prime minister Alexis Tsipras today, says Tusk. And I hope that today we will receive concrete and realistic proposals from Athens.

And if that happens, we will also need parallel proposal from the creditors.

If Greece provides a realistic proposal, then “it will need to be matched by an equally realistic proposal on debt sustainability by the creditors”.

Only then will we have a win-win situation.

Otherwise we will continue the lethargic dance that we have been dancing for the last five months.

also tweeted:

Donald Tusk
@eucopresident

Realistic proposal from Athens needs to be matched by realistic proposal from creditors on debt sustainability to create win-win situation
7:11 AM - 9 Jul 2015