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[Theonik]

Things b so cray that i'm just expecting snap elections and Varoufakis running for PM of Greece.

Would be acceptable.

 

[Coriolanus]

I think that they want to implement a de-facto debt relief through extensions of payback timeframes and reductions of interests over many years, so that nobody notices or cares anymore. Even the baltic states won't care about Greece's debt in ten or twenty years as much as they care right now. I guess that part of the frustration with the Greek government comes from the fact that they are either not understanding or not accepting this unspoken but obvious agreement.

That was one of the ideas that Varou flat-out floated pre-election and right after post-election, so i kinda doubt it.

 

[ElTorro]

That was one of the ideas that Varou flat-out floated pre-election and right after post-election, so i kinda doubt it.

I suspect that they wanted to implement these measures later when the voters aren't looking anymore. Talking about it right now defeats that purpose.

 

[KingSnake]

I think that they want to implement a de-facto debt relief through extensions of payback timeframes and reductions of interests over many years, so that nobody notices or cares anymore. Even the baltic states won't care about Greece's debt in ten or twenty years as much as they care right now. The voters won't, and they are the most important group of people here. The Eurozone likely wants to push the problem under the carpet and deal without once the public spotlight has gone away. I guess that part of the frustration with the Greek government comes from the fact that they are either not understanding or not accepting this unspoken but obvious agreement.

Another point is that politicians care about their legacy, and most of them, to varying degrees, do not want to be held responsible for reverting European integration. People like Martin Schulz have actually been very frank about that. He almost literally said that he would prefer any deal over a Grexit, just so that he is not responsible for kicking a state out of the Euro and desecrating the great European project.

Yeah, but this was not the first proposal towards Greece. The debt was as unsustainable also two weeks ago. And the first proposal didn't touch that at all. They might want now to make some kind of hidden debt relief as a last resort, but the first proposal was to throw more money into the same pit. I find this insane and very irresponsible.

 

[Theonik]

That was one of the ideas that Varou flat-out floated pre-election and right after post-election, so i kinda doubt it.

It had been on the table from day 1. I recall.
But then again. At the time they weren't willing to go there. With how public things have gone they now have to appear to at least consider it or have to appear to be Comic Book Villains.

Edit:

I suspect that they wanted to implement these measures later when the voters aren't looking anymore. Talking about it right now defeats that purpose.

This too. The consideration was probably to extend the old program for a few months then go into a new plan later once Podemos was out of the way.

 

[PJV3]

I suspect that they wanted to implement these measures later when the voters aren't looking anymore. Talking about it right now defeats that purpose.

I suppose Greece are looking for something that that can offer hope to their people, a nudge and a wink isn't any good. A promise to look at it in the distant future from a politician isn't worth much either.

 

[Theonik]

I suppose Greece are looking for something that that can offer hope to their people, a nudge and a wink isn't any good. A promise to look at it in the distant future from a politician isn't worth much either.

Syriza are looking to save their markets from freefall. To do that they need to restore confidence that shit is getting done and an end is coming. Inconclusive rubbish just won't cut it anymore.

 

[ElTorro]

It had been on the table from day 1. I recall.
But then again. At the time they weren't willing to go there. With how public things have gone they now have to appear to at least consider it or have to appear to be Comic Book Villains.

If they can't keep the issue under the carpet, they will want to play the same crap game that Greece played with the word 'Troika'. Keep the concept but rename it so that the much of the public doesn't see that that things have or haven't changed. In the case of the Eurozone, they want to avoid the term 'debt relief' and replace it with something that most don't recognize as a debt relief. Let's say, "debt sustainability measures".

One thing is obvious to me: ALL of them know that they won't get much of their money back. All that is happening right now in this regard are political mind-games with the aim of not pissing the voters, especially in the other poorer countries, off.

The only thing that is worthy of real discussion is the scope of the debt relief. Germany, the Baltics, etc. will demand that the remaining sustainable debt will be as high as possible. Greece will obviously want to get rid of almost all their debts.

 

[Theonik]

If they can't keep the issue under the carpet, they will want to play the same crap game that Greece played with the word 'Troika'. Keep the concept but rename it so that the much of the public doesn't see that that things have or haven't changed. In the case of the Eurozone, they want to avoid the term 'debt relief' and replace it with something that most don't recognize as a debt relief. Let's say, "debt sustainability measures".

One thing is obvious to me: ALL of them know that they won't get much of their money back. All that is happening right now in this regard are political mind-games with the aim of not pissing the voters, especially in the other poorer countries, off.

The only thing that is worthy of real discussion is the scope of the debt relief. Germany, the Baltics, etc. will demand that the remaining sustainable debt will be as high as possible. Greece will obviously want to get rid of almost all their debts.

Yes. The only danger with this is by beating around the bush they are pushing those boundaries. More efforts will be needed and yet more money will need to be dumped making the issue harder to sweep under the rug. Furthermore, they cannot afford to fail spectacularly a third time so by not going back far enough they risk having to return to an even worse mess like what happened in the previous bailouts.

Though, knowing that, perhaps they don't care as much since that's 'For the next government to deal with' Greeks should be most familiar with this.

 

[KingSnake]

The European Commission President, Jean-Claude Juncker, has been meeting members of the Greek opposition New Democracy party, as part of efforts to secure consensus on a deal. Dora Bakoyiannis, pictured below, told Associated Press she hopes for an agreement that prevents Greeks having to "pay the price for amateurishness, obsessiveness and egotism".

Because nothing shows your will to reach an agreement with a government more than showing off with the opposition.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Because nothing shows your will to reach an agreement with a government more than showing off with the opposition.

Lol, wtf? Did they schedule this meeting before the referendum or something?

 

[Theonik]

Lol, wtf? Did they schedule this meeting before the referendum or something?

I HAVE NO IDEA.
It's like either they missed a memo or are continuing with their plan for a replacement.

 

[PJV3]

Lol, wtf? Did they schedule this meeting before the referendum or something?

Fuck the greek people, sounds like the new motto of the EU.

 

[My words exactly!]

Because nothing shows your will to reach an agreement with a government more than showing off with the opposition.

Υes supporters and ousted politicians didn't get the memo it seems. God they are relentless

 

[petran79]

Because nothing shows your will to reach an agreement with a government more than showing off with the opposition.

that woman and her father are one of the most corrupt politicians ever.

Her father's work alone rubbed Greece of her wealth and gold. Of course he is unpunished and also gets 3 separate pensions.....

Greeks deserve what they get by voting such people....

 

[KingSnake]

that woman and her father are one of the most corrupt politicians ever.

Her father's work alone rubbed Greece of her wealth and gold. Of course he is unpunished and also gets 3 separate pensions.....

Greeks deserve what they get by voting such people....

Strange, that doesn't seem to bother the president of EC.

 

[oti]

Tsipras should go and pay Putin another visit.

 

[maquiladora]

So it looks like the new proposal Greece is formulating could feature 12 billion in tax rises and spending cuts. This is just a few days after they campaigned against an 8-9 billion austerity package in the referendum.

This is going to require a serious amount of spin for the Greek people to swallow.

 

[Engell]

So it looks like the new proposal Greece is formulating could feature 12 billion in tax rises and spending cuts. This is just a few days after they campaigned against an 8-9 billion austerity package in the referendum.

This is going to require a serious amount of spin for the Greek people to swallow.

Better grease it up good, because i think they will have to swollow it.

 

[valouris]

Was this posted?

http://www.mediapart.fr/journal/int...-months-humiliation-and-blackm?page_article=1

Sure, one-sided, but very scary if even half is true... (I believe all of it though)

 

[pigeon]

So it looks like the new proposal Greece is formulating could feature 12 billion in tax rises and spending cuts. This is just a few days after they campaigned against an 8-9 billion austerity package in the referendum.

This is going to require a serious amount of spin for the Greek people to swallow.

This just further confirms that the right thing for Greece is to leave the euro as soon as possible.

 

[Joni]

I HAVE NO IDEA.
It's like either they missed a memo or are continuing with their plan for a replacement.

Or they realize they need the buy-in of all Greek politicians because the current ones might not survive the next election?

 

[KingSnake]

So it looks like the new proposal Greece is formulating could feature 12 billion in tax rises and spending cuts. This is just a few days after they campaigned against an 8-9 billion austerity package in the referendum.

This is going to require a serious amount of spin for the Greek people to swallow.

This is from this 10 hours ago and has yet to be confirmed, if not straight contradicted by the other statements

 

[My words exactly!]

Do it!

 

[Ether_Snake]

Don't be fooled, any proposal Greece is drawing up will contain a fat debt cutting demand, or an equivalent.

Any deal will eventually lead to Grexit anyay, the euro makes it a certainty.

 

[cyberheater]

So it looks like the new proposal Greece is formulating could feature 12 billion in tax rises and spending cuts. This is just a few days after they campaigned against an 8-9 billion austerity package in the referendum.

This is going to require a serious amount of spin for the Greek people to swallow.

I can't see how the Greek government can sell that to the people.
The only would be to say that they must either suck it up or leave the Eurozone and if the Greek people did vote okay then they would have been better voting yes the first time around.

Those poor Greek barstards.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Or they realize they need the buy-in of all Greek politicians because the current ones might not survive the next election?

Weren't the current govt elected in January? How often do Greeks have their elections?

Aren't Syriza more popular now than when they were elected?

What makes Juncker think that the opposition will survive the next elections?

Talking to the opposition seems very unusual to me...

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Breaking news in Athens.

In an emergency meeting the Greek government has approved the packet of measures it will present to creditors (hopefully later this evening) to break the impasse and reach an agreement, our correspondent Helena Smith reports.

A senior Syriza MP has just told me that the radical left party’s parliamentary group has been “asked to be on standby” to vote on the package possibly as early as tomorrow.

“We have all been told to be here. We may have to vote on it tomorrow,” he said.

The defence minister who leads the right-wng populist Independent Greeks party, the government’s junior partner, has also just said: “Very shortly the Greek proposal will be tabled.”

HERE WE GO

 

[ksan]

Because nothing shows your will to reach an agreement with a government more than showing off with the opposition.

Just the fact that you say that is pretty telling of how fucked up everything is.
Imagine how much easier it would have to get through a crisis with some consensus politics.

 

[Theonik]

Just the fact that you say that is pretty telling of how fucked up everything is.
Imagine how much easier it would have to get through a crisis with some consensus politics.

The Greek government already did that in a meeting after the referendum where they decided on a common negotiation stance. Calling the opposition behind closed doors after that is not towards that goal.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Just for the record, if this gets voted down in parliament, then both a) the government is dissolved because they've been defeated on a finance bill, and b) there is a Grexit. I suspect this is why Tsipras brought the opposition on board, as he is worried about the left wing of Syriza.

 

[KingSnake]

Just the fact that you say that is pretty telling of how fucked up everything is.
Imagine how much easier it would have to get through a crisis with some consensus politics.

It's about symbolism. Talking with the opposition before finalizing talks with the government (especially when the government just has been backed by 60% of voters in a recent referendum) is not common practice, is rude and it's not about reaching a consensus.

 

[cyberheater]

Just for the record, if this gets voted down in parliament, then both a) the government is dissolved because they've been defeated on a finance bill, and b) there is a Grexit. I suspect this is why Tsipras brought the opposition on board, as he is worried about the left wing of Syriza.

Good info. Thanks.

Is the new proposal worse for the Greek people then the one they vote on?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Good info. Thanks.

Is the new proposal worse for the Greek people then the one they vote on?

No idea, we don't know what it is yet.

Spoiler

I suspect yes.

 

[Joni]

Weren't the current govt elected in January? How often do Greeks have their elections?

Aren't Syriza more popular now than when they were elected?

What makes Juncker think that the opposition will survive the next elections?

Talking to the opposition seems very unusual to me...

These measures have to be a. voted in and b. have to remain effect for many moons to come. Better to get everyone on board now than realize in five years the party you skipped is now in power. And yes, Syriza is still popular now. Now. Just before they'll probably sign a couple of heavy measures into law. Are they still as popular tomorrow? Who knows? Working with a national 'union' of political parties can help.

 

[ksan]

The Greek government already did that in a meeting after the referendum where they decided on a common negotiation stance. Calling the opposition behind closed doors after that is not towards that goal.

Bout half a decade too late though.

It's about symbolism. Talking with the opposition before finalizing talks with the government (especially when the government just has been backed by 60% of voters in a recent referendum) is not common practice, is rude and it's not about reaching a consensus.

Yeah, common practice is usually not that relevant in times of crises, and that's a pretty low threshold for a consensus.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

More news coming in.

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

EU president Jean Claude Juncker had mentioned humanitarian aid as part of the “detailed Grexit scenario” plans creditors had drawn up. EU diplomats based in Athens said some form of assistance is likely to be given even if an agreement between Greece and its creditors is reached.

I'm also seeing multiple sources floating E13bn of spending cuts, but none confirmed by a major source. For context, the one rejected in the referendum was E9bn.

 

[sflufan]

The far left are going to absolutely explode if this supposed €13 billion in additional austerity measures turns out to be reality.

I imagine that there are going to be significant strikes in Greece in the coming days.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

These measures have to be a. voted in and b. have to remain effect for many moons to come. Better to get everyone on board now than realize in five years the party you skipped is now in power. And yes, Syriza is still popular now. Now. Just before they'll probably sign a couple of heavy measures into law. Are they still as popular tomorrow? Who knows? Working with a national 'union' of political parties can help.

I look forward to Juncker's meeting with Harriet Harman (or whoever is leading the UK Labour party) in the run up to the UK's referendum on EU membership. Great politicking Mr President!

You negotiate with the people in power NOW. If someone else is elected five years from now you can renegotiate with them at that point. This isn't complicated. This meeting completely undermines any pretence of good faith on the part of the creditors.

 

[KingSnake]

I can see a tough reform package combined with a serious debt cut proposed by Tsipras. It would be quite tough to argue against by the EU leaders.

 

[My words exactly!]

Depends on where the reforms will target, for the 13bln €.
If they do tax big businesses and avoid taxing poorer citizens maybe they can be accepted. Also, what happens to tourism & cost of drugs for treatment is very important.

This meeting completely undermines any pretence of good faith on the part of the creditors.

There is no such thing, let's not be naive

Spoiler

it goes both ways actually

 

[valouris]

If they do tax big businesses and avoid taxing poorer citizens maybe they can be accepted.

Wouldn't bet on it. Conservative/liberal EU agenda has rejected such proposals before

 

[Coriolanus]

In other news:

18m ago18:29
Greece may get bailout and humanitarian aid

International observers have been telling us today that the package is likely to be so punitive that humanitarian aid cannot be ruled out.

EU president Jean Claude Juncker had mentioned humanitarian aid as part of the “detailed Grexit scenario” plans creditors had drawn up. EU diplomats based in Athens said some form of assistance is likely to be given even if am agreement between Greece its creditors is reached.

Syriza MPs have been telling our Helena Smith that the big no received in the referendum on Sunday was a “confidence vote” in Tsipras who like no other prime minister before now has the popular support to enforce such punitive measures.

That is not how the far far left (or indeed the far left in Syriza) see things. Strikes, rallies and protests should be expected in weeks ahead.

The bolded makes less than zero sense.

These measures have to be a. voted in and b. have to remain effect for many moons to come. Better to get everyone on board now than realize in five years the party you skipped is now in power. And yes, Syriza is still popular now. Now. Just before they'll probably sign a couple of heavy measures into law. Are they still as popular tomorrow? Who knows? Working with a national 'union' of political parties can help.

While that does make sense in a.. theoretical level, were that the case, you'd often see Juncker meeting, say, Iglesias or the defeated/soon-to-be leaders of other countries in the eurozone.

Since that happens Pretty Much Never, it is far more likely that the picture depicts exactly what it appears to depict: collusion.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Depends on where the reforms will target, for the 13bln €.
If they do tax big businesses and avoid taxing poorer citizens maybe they can be accepted. Also, what happens to tourism & cost of drugs for treatment is very important.



There is no such thing, let's not be naive

Spoiler

it goes both ways actually

The E13bn is pure spending cuts. Tax raises will be separate.

 

[Ether_Snake]

If shit goes down, Varoufakis will run for PM, mark my words. If Tsipras falls, Varoufakis rises.

 

[Theonik]

Would Varoufakis.

 

[Coriolanus]

Sad part is that an insane 13 billion cut bailout package would be the perfect tool to show to his base (and the rest of Greece) how buttfuck crazy the EU is, thus making Grexit the only viable choice.

Alas, seems that story that said Varou quit because he wouldn't support a package like that is becoming more plausible with every passing hour.

 

[ksan]

If shit goes down, Varoufakis will run for PM, mark my words. If Tsipras falls, Varoufakis rises.

Doesn't seem like he actually has the willpower to be an effective politician though.
Even though he knew what was wrong with Greece already back in the 90s, he evidently focused on the financial, rather than the institutional problems with the economy lately.

It's obvious that Greece can't be ran as an LBO for a PE-company, a country simply doesn't adjust to the same requirements as an indebted firm. Sadly, the negotiations from both sides seem to be more about the financials rather than anything else. Greece has very little to offer the rest of the world in its current state, other than its history and beautiful nature.

Perhaps, showing a good platform and a real mandate could actually result in something.

 

[Coriolanus]

Even though he knew what was wrong with Greece already back in the 90s, he evidently focused on the financial, rather than the institutional problems with the economy lately.

Not quite. In pre-election interviews he openly declared that one of the goals syriza should seek is institutional reforms, especially targeting Greece's Big Fishes.

Alas, once they got to power, he was performing the function of a FinMin, which entails... you guessed it: focussing on financial issues.

Plus solving institutional issues takes quite a bit longer and all. It's a change of culture.

 

[Chariot]

How would he become PM, dude doesn't even have a tie!