The funny thing with this is that Tsipras took himself behind the shed and shot himself in the foot to be able to call in sick for the revolution.
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Greece votes OXI/No on more Austerity measures
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The funny thing with this is that Tsipras took himself behind the shed and shot himself in the foot to be able to call in sick for the revolution.
Kojima wrote the script to this crisis.
Theonik
Member
That's a fantastic way to put it. But they will spin it somehow.
Also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53XcPG2M1Qc
(the poster is called Ether_Snake)
PopcornMegaphone
Banned
I am simply in disbelief this is being deal offered without at least some debt restructuring. Hell, even Merkel was open to debt restructuring (not forgiveness).
Unknown Soldier
Member
I guess this is a random question but what does the European Parliament actually do? Besides provide amusing political theater I mean.
The more I think about it the more I expect the creditors to actually reject that proposal.
They all unanimously said that a completely new and long program would require harsher conditions than the rest of the second bailout program. So they might very well reject that proposal, since it is basically just the old proposal for the second program.
Wouldn't that be funny.
They all unanimously said that a completely new and long program would require harsher conditions than the rest of the second bailout program. So they might very well reject that proposal, since it is basically just the old proposal for the second program.
Wouldn't that be funny.
uuaschbaer
Banned
It's like everyone has become afraid to run their own country.
Ether_Snake
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I'm not advocating this, I'm saying this is the situation Greece is in now. The proposal will wreck the economy, it will NOT help Greece heal, period. So Grexit will happen, but certainly not as it should have.
If that is what happened, it would align with the idea that Tsipras wanted the Yes vote to win, only to bring back the proposal and see it rejected. Because that's basically what he has done.
Ether_Snake
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.
If a Grexit leads to a humanitarian crisis and a failed state, he will be demonized by history. He probably doesn't want to be remembered as the guy who caused Greece's Great Leap Forward. Even if Greece eventually comes out if it stronger, it will be many dark years, and he will be hated for lying to the people about not exiting the Eurozone. That's a pretty strong incentive for any politician.
Choosing Masturbation after getting the 10/10 girl to come home with you.*
Ether_Snake
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Finance minister Euclid Tsakalotos's signature:
lol that can't be a coincidence right?
SmoothBrain
Member
I need some clarification of what has happend with the proposal. Did the referendum have any effect on it?
Coriolanus
Banned
All signs point to lolno.
This new proposal, it only brings more agony for the people of Greece while EU earns time to straighten out Spain, Italy and Portugal. Seems like a bad deal for Greece. If Greece wants to blackmail Euro, they should have done it when they were negotiating the first bailout when they had strong leverage.
Greece should hammer out whatever deal they can and earn some time and prepare for a Grexit in a few years.
Greece should hammer out whatever deal they can and earn some time and prepare for a Grexit in a few years.
shinra-bansho
Member
I got around to reading this, and it's a good read. I think I've read similar before in a piece in the financial press and in some discussion blogs on Bruegel.
EDIT: I think this was one of the pieces http://www.breakingviews.com/edward-hadas-the-redundant-fictions-of-greek-debt/21183688.article
The two problems I see with getting people to recognise this though is that, 1) every day people understand nominal values, not net present values, and 2) there are vested political interests, in my view from both sides of these negotiations, for focusing on the nominal values and total debt-to-GDP values.
The creditor nations' leaders don't want to tell their people that they're not actually getting back what was lent, as well as using the size of the nominal debt to justify strict fiscal policy.
Indebted nations' leaders don't want to tell their people that concessions have actually been made, and the debt isn't as large as would initially appear, as well as using the size of the nominal debt to continue to push for outright debt relief.
I actually think some movement could have been made towards relaxation of the fiscal policy, if we go back six months towards when economic indicators were far more positive, although I could be mistaken. Nor that debt restructuring towards even longer maturities and interest delays, or other ways to make the debt service even more manageable were necessarily off the table. I don't think the bombastic nature of the current government particularly helped matters in any way, though, towards reaching any sort of agreement that could have led to such moves.
Hyperactivity
Banned
An absolute circus.
Varoufakis saw what was coming and had no intentions being a part of it
Varoufakis saw what was coming and had no intentions being a part of it
Varoufakis caused some of the circus. Thing is, there are MPs that want more extremes, much more than Varoufakis. Lapavitsas blasts the Euro every chance he gets and pushes for exit, has been doing it for years. So if Yani couldn't stomach this, what about the others? Honestly though, I'm not sure what else one could have expected.
Right, easy to see the resistance from the creditors side, which is why they were so against the growth linked bond swap Varoufakis proposed. It would tackle a bunch of problems for Greece, but it's hard to price these assets so they would have to be held for a long time. You will also have the specter of "cooking the books" which shouldn't be much of a concern considering how the monitors overlook everything, but it's a talking point that's brought up. They'll scream about Argentina and the inflation protected bonds that weren't protected from inflation.
Edit: Obviously the creditors lose a lot of leverage with Varoufakis' proposal, they no longer dictate the terms on fiscal policy and reforms, that's a fucking no no right now. Greece would be motivated to right the ship and promote growth, but the creditors can't force them to adjust too fast because no growth no debt service.
Right, easy to see the resistance from the creditors side, which is why they were so against the growth linked bond swap Varoufakis proposed. It would tackle a bunch of problems for Greece, but it's hard to price these assets so they would have to be held for a long time. You will also have the specter of "cooking the books" which shouldn't be much of a concern considering how the monitors overlook everything, but it's a talking point that's brought up. They'll scream about Argentina and the inflation protected bonds that weren't protected from inflation.
Edit: Obviously the creditors lose a lot of leverage with Varoufakis' proposal, they no longer dictate the terms on fiscal policy and reforms, that's a fucking no no right now. Greece would be motivated to right the ship and promote growth, but the creditors can't force them to adjust too fast because no growth no debt service.
Machspeed007
Member
Nah, we will make that concession.
I won't be surprised if we even do throw in a debt cut.
Yes, it is much worse now. They had a better deal on the table.
Well, can you blamr them? If you want to rule now you are a sacrifical pawn. Even if you manage to heal the economy, the positive effects won't show fast and you will be cast out as another failure.
dark_inferno
Member
anonymous_abc
Member
So how much did that referendum and the last two weeks cost?
Greece is clearly thriving being in the EU, how stupid of him.
dark_inferno
Member
This will hopefully not happen.
PdotMichael
Banned
The guy operates with the premise that Tsipras has something like a masterplan the past months.
Reality is quite the opposite though.
PdotMichael
Banned
More like playing the chicken game alone.
Friedrich (CSU) on German TV:
"Greece is either fooling its own people or it's fooling us again."
Another CDU-CSU guy questioned whether one can trust Greece to implement the reforms, since they didn't want them just a week ago.
What else do they want from Greece at this point anyway? They got what they wanted.
"Greece is either fooling its own people or it's fooling us again."
Another CDU-CSU guy questioned whether one can trust Greece to implement the reforms, since they didn't want them just a week ago.
What else do they want from Greece at this point anyway? They got what they wanted.
dark_inferno
Member
You dont show the same changes that the referendum didnt want. That is some strange shit.
)You show anything less than the creditor's demands and they say no without even thinking about it.
dark_inferno
Member
They have changed a bit (taxes for greece island etc) but the real problem, the corruption, seems to be unchanged.
Fjolle
Member
They ask for 50 billion more for the same demands...
Technically it's not more, as they have to pay a lot of billions back in the coming months, but it could be fun if they take the money and pay nothing back.
Ted Striker
Neo Member
Tsipras bending the knee.
QuicheFontaine
Member
"Smithers, I'm beginning to think that Homer Simpsons is not the brilliant tactician I thought he was."
The referendum has no value. It never was an option as it was based on the false premise that a 'no' woudn't mean a grexit. It does.
You can't stay in the EU and refuse structural reforms.
The referendum should have been 'do you want a grexit?'. Because that's the first and most meaningful question that needed to be answered by the greeks.
Everything else is secondary.
Machspeed007
Member
That's not true.
We will provide humanitarian aid no matter what, hoping that Greece will do the structural reforms and get back on its feet. They are just in a psychological denial phase right now that they just need to get over with. No country really defaults ever as long as its people are willing to rebuild it and have a set goal that gives them hope.
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