While I agree, there are moments of insane WTF bullshit in the dungeons that are just inexcusable. For example yesterday I ran CM explorable butler path with some Gaffers, and the cave with OP rangers at the end and a spike trap was tedious as hell.
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Guild Wars 2 |OT| Buy Once, Sub Never, Fun Forever
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While I agree, there are moments of insane WTF bullshit in the dungeons that are just inexcusable. For example yesterday I ran CM explorable butler path with some Gaffers, and the cave with OP rangers at the end and a spike trap was tedious as hell.
Problem is: Cataclysm heroics, hell, even Burning Crusade heroics had a STRUCTURE that worked and that was waaay better than the one that is in GW2 right now, as far as dungeons are concerned.
People are not asking for nerfs or easyness, they are asking for a structure. Which is now exactly as much structure as can be found in the PVP encounter in the Trial of the Crusaders raid in WOTLK. Not much.
I'm not sure I understand how your statement meets the discussion you quoted...Dungeon runs currently are anything BUT streamlined.
I'm not sure what the point about WoW cata heroics is supposed to be. I did them all in quest greens the first 2 days after hitting 85, I never thought they were hard. Yeah, Blizz nerfs stuff, nobody is talking about nerfs or difficulty, I'm talking about the overall design decisions that went into the dungeons. GW2 dungeons are challenging, but they're challenging in frankly unfair and ridiculous ways. Faction Champions is the best example, it's a fun fight as a one off, but half of the fights, including trash, in GW2 dungeons feel like fighting Faction Champions over and over and over and over...There's little strategy involved, little real skill (I'm sorry, but I'm fully aware that if I can manage to chain rolls and blinds onto a mob indefinitely that it is easy, unfortunately not every group comp works that way and I as a player have little control over it). I've said this many times: Damage is essentially unavoidable, on average. When you have unavoidable damage, the notion of no trinity BREAKS DOWN. Not having healers and tanks if you can literally dodge every shot fired at you? Fine. That works flawlessly. There are many bosses in GW2 that work that way and it's great when they do. For everything else the system is flawed.
No they are not asking for nerfs. They are asking for a system change. They want to play them like they are use to. With one guy taking the hits, one guy healing and 3 guys doing the damage.
While there are bad parts in some dungeons, the overall structure is perfect for the kind of gameplay GW2 is build up on. What is needed is that people realise they either need to get use to having a active playstyle with more then one role, or realise the game is not for them.
Truth be told most of the guys complaining dont like that they cant just go all out on the boss while someone keeps the mobs attention of them and somebody else keeps them alive while they stand in a pool of fire or poison.
Nail meet head.
People, like it or not, are so used to the structured fights of other MMO's that GW2 is just coming across like a gangfuck in hard fights now, but Anet said from the off that the greater class freedom would mean people had to work much better together to succeed, hence the smaller teams for easier co-ordination.
PUG's are probably not great for hard content due to lack of voicecomms but then that's how it used to be in WoW (TBC heroics were especially hard).
You see, chaos is not a system. There is no system change when you actually need to implement a system first. That might be a slight exaggeration, but having boss encounters where the bosses do scripted stuff, and throwing mobs with different abilities at player groups are not a system.
You can say that its the developer's clear intent to only provide "chaos". And I say: okay, then that might or might not be good with the active playerbase. Now, I understand that many Guild Wars 2 players have this fear that somehow the WoW players will come in, invade your games and turn it into something that is just a WoW-clone, but it definitely is not the case, imho. WoW players are amongst the first who happily welcome a game where there is a DIFFERENT system in place, but one that can clearly be mastered.
You do not need to turn into a WoW to make dungeons interesting while retaining the hard feeling.
Huh? No big update for me at least.
What patch,just logged in from last night and there is no patch...
don´t really know, but my client loaded 1.5 gigs of files "new"!? was online last night also. weird. could not find any indications of a patch on twitter
While I have not yet played any dungeons and can't comment on that, I have to say that this statement is one of the most stupid I've ever read. I actually enjoy "learning" to play the game and why shouldn't you have to adapt to a game? You can't go into this game wanting to play it like wow, same as you can't go into wow wanting to play it like Diablo. They're different games, one does not play like the other.
And, yes "learning how the game works", is my idea of fun. I like not having lot's of tutorials and finding out stuff for myself.
Chaos is a system. It is somehow just a system you are not able to handle.
I have played wow for 6,5 years and enjoyed it immensely. But outside of the absolute hardcore raids wow was never challenging.
GW2 is.
Chaos is fun because it forces you to use your senses. The stale holy trinity system is much more forgiving because you only have to focus on one aspect, one role.
Oh, I am able to handle the chaos alright. I do not get why one needs to resort to "you just need to step your game up" anytime this discussion starts. I have done the PVP Totc encounter (as well as Anub
) just as well in heroic mode, BEFORE nerfs and before the ICC content patch, thank you That is still a mindless approach to designing encounters, and Guild Wars 2 can benefit from so much more.I think its unfair to say there's no system in Guildwars 2. The dungeons are not simply chaos that the players are working to contain. There's a big decrease in the difficulty of the fights when you have a realistic plan, coordinate it with your group, and switch your traits and skills for any given fight to effectuate that plan. I don't mean leaving the dungeon to respec, but there's a reason Anet lets you swap skills and traits within a line on the fly.
My example is the Vassar / Ralena fight in AC. If you make sure people are 1) targeting the mages as they spawn, 2) curing conditions on themselves or others, 3) keeping the mesmers apart, and 4) prepared for when the mesmers teleport to each other (our plan is to flee to the sides of the room and get them to chase us until they separate), then the fight is a lot easier. If your plan is "lets go in there and see how this goes, and at least we have a nearby waypoint", then you might beat the fight, but don't be surprised that it takes you 4 respawns of bind rushing to kill the boss.
Everyone needs to be prepared to own the different jobs that need to be done on any given fight, including trash pulls, unless you have someone specifically tailored to fill that role for the group. Could my engineer make an elixir build that can handle conditions for the whole team in a fight? Sure. But if I'm not doing that, then everyone else better damn well make sure they have some sort of personal condition removal on that fight, or that they're not attacking when they've got confusion.
I can see improvement in the runs I do with my guild group every time we do a dungeon - and not just the ones we've done before. As we get the idea out of our heads that these are faceroll-your-keyboard WoW style dungeons, and give them the respect that end-game, raid-difficulty content deserve, we improve greatly. Sure there is room for improvement in the design that Anet has taken with developing the dungeons, but it doesn't need to be improvement that creates a taunt function, and a weapon with five slots of heals.
-Slathe
My example is the Vassar / Ralena fight in AC. If you make sure people are 1) targeting the mages as they spawn, 2) curing conditions on themselves or others, 3) keeping the mesmers apart, and 4) prepared for when the mesmers teleport to each other (our plan is to flee to the sides of the room and get them to chase us until they separate), then the fight is a lot easier. If your plan is "lets go in there and see how this goes, and at least we have a nearby waypoint", then you might beat the fight, but don't be surprised that it takes you 4 respawns of bind rushing to kill the boss.
Everyone needs to be prepared to own the different jobs that need to be done on any given fight, including trash pulls, unless you have someone specifically tailored to fill that role for the group. Could my engineer make an elixir build that can handle conditions for the whole team in a fight? Sure. But if I'm not doing that, then everyone else better damn well make sure they have some sort of personal condition removal on that fight, or that they're not attacking when they've got confusion.
I can see improvement in the runs I do with my guild group every time we do a dungeon - and not just the ones we've done before. As we get the idea out of our heads that these are faceroll-your-keyboard WoW style dungeons, and give them the respect that end-game, raid-difficulty content deserve, we improve greatly. Sure there is room for improvement in the design that Anet has taken with developing the dungeons, but it doesn't need to be improvement that creates a taunt function, and a weapon with five slots of heals.
-Slathe
Oh, I am able to handle the chaos alright. I do not get why one needs to resort to "you just need to step your game up" anytime this discussion starts. I have done the PVP Totc encounter (as well as Anub
Those encounters where indeed stupid design choises. Because wow is not build for players relying om themselves in a raid/dungeon situation.
I am not saying that you or any other wow raider is a bad player. Trust me from my hc raid experience in wow I know it takes alot of cooperative skill to master the hardest raids. However. Guild Wars 2 is build on the fact that you need to work differently.
You do not cooperate in the same way. Everyone is suppose to do healing/kiting/damaging.
This is also why the heavily support based builds are not working perfectly in pve dungeons, because these players do not do their part of the damaging.
In wow you as a player is a part of a organisation where everyone has a very defined role. In gw 2 everyone is basically having the same role, but it takes more people doing the same things to get the job done.
It is a more hectic enviroment but it is so by design. I dont see it as a flawed system but rather a different system, that appeals to a different type of player.
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Don't tell me no one in GAF is in Crystal Desert?
Booter
Member
I'm on CD.
Not in the Gaf guild though (are we able to invite cross server yet?). If not and you looking for a guild let me know
not yet :/
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Current-world-rankings
Ah crap, we are in second place
More HoD for us it seems
What the hell happened to Team Legacy? Shouldnt their server be first or second? Or did they already implode?
Ah crap, we are in second place
More HoD for us it seems
What the hell happened to Team Legacy? Shouldnt their server be first or second? Or did they already implode?
I like the idea of more active MMO combat, but I do feel the dungeons need tweaking. It feels like the combat system was designed with pvp in mind(Limited healing, rolling etc), and it works pretty damn well for that. However, in some pve encounters, the damage is so high that the heals don't cover it if you have certain class combinations which don't have many heals, and the attacks are so frequent that the limited dodge doesn't cover it either. Especially as melee. I made a warrior because I mainly wanted to be melee, but quite a lot of encounters shoehorn you into using a rifle/longbow because they do too much constant damage to people in melee range.
The only issue I have with dungeons are the normal enemies. When you have 3-4 of them it just becomes a chore. They simply take far to long to kill. For me, at this point the game feels too much like any other end-game raid... everyone just homing in on one enemy and whacking away.
I experienced similar findings. Most dungeon boss fights devolve into people regularly going into downed state, being rallied and rinse and repeat. It's basically tank and spank, just without the tank. In GW 2 it's basically downed-->rally + spank. I agree with the fact that some systems seem designed for pvp with pve being shoehorned in. There really is no excuse for that because unlike in WoW, or other MMOs with pvp servers, you either do PVE or PVP. That means that game systems, and or skills, should be able to be balanced differently with regard to the context.
I have faith in A.net, even though many dungeon runs were very tedious due to poor balancing. Mostly due to HP sponge enemies that are not interesting to fight. I get the feeling that enemies are either overpowered and will constantly down you, or they are underpowered and do not present any challenge whatsoever. For example, during the last boss in the Waves dungeon (area with the Jorm dragon), I didn't have to move a single step.
In the same dungeon, the turrets + constant adds spawn + boss fight was pretty well designed, allowing players a choice of either doding turret projectiles or killing them.
But, I have faith because I have seen the wonderful final boss of the lvl 60 dungeon. It fits the mechanics perfectly, with boss dmg being completely avoidable, having to look at the surroundings and move in or out of cover depending on the situation, and having to manage adds - a wonderful encounter, especially compared to some of the others in that same instance.
Just saw your post after I made mine, and I thought it was amusing that you brought up the same examples I did. Sorrows Embrace, with that horrible golem boss... and the following great fight.
Stahsky
A passionate embrace, a beautiful memory lingers.
You adapted once when you made the move to WoW. You can't do it again? This is a different kind of MMO. Either learn it, or move on.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I've never played WoW.
CoF is a good example of arguably being too easy. It's no wonder everyone and their dog has the flame armour with how quickly and relatively easily you can do Explore path 2. Though even that, there's the stupid door bit where you have to try and kite about 30 different enemies throwing all kinds of stuff at you.
Some of my fraps'ed exploring:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkHsb6xKgUM&feature=youtu.be&hd=1
Ps. Hate Youtube compression ;\
Zyrusticae
Banned
I'm honestly kind of shocked people are defending, at the very least, AC's absurd difficulty spike relative to the rest of the game.
As the entry dungeon, it is a VERY bad first impression if everybody's dying a dozen times in their first run and wiping on trash mobs. Perhaps that is reasonable for explorable mode, but why is even story that freakin' ridiculous? I even ran it my first time at level 60 in full rare gear and was still getting downed with disturbing regularity.
I don't even care how you guys justify it. PUGs should at least be able to run story mode without dying left and right. And the normal mobs being tougher than bosses? Hogawd! Laughable, really. Just laughable.
As the entry dungeon, it is a VERY bad first impression if everybody's dying a dozen times in their first run and wiping on trash mobs. Perhaps that is reasonable for explorable mode, but why is even story that freakin' ridiculous? I even ran it my first time at level 60 in full rare gear and was still getting downed with disturbing regularity.
I don't even care how you guys justify it. PUGs should at least be able to run story mode without dying left and right. And the normal mobs being tougher than bosses? Hogawd! Laughable, really. Just laughable.
Wickerbasket
Member
Most games require you to learn how to play them initially. I can't really think of a great game that doesn't require you to learn it's system in some basic way. Tetris maybe?
Some of the best games are some of the most difficult to master.
I don't really understand why you're buying new games if you don't like learning to play them.
I'm not saying the system is fine the way it is, but 'learning how the game works' is usually part of the fun for me.
https://forum-en.guildwars2.com/forum/pvp/wuvwuv/Current-world-rankings
Ah crap, we are in second place
More HoD for us it seems
What the hell happened to Team Legacy? Shouldnt their server be first or second? Or did they already implode?
There's reports online of people on HoD exploiting. I've never personally seen it, but makes me wonder what ANet has in place to catch such things.
dat hat
Glitch more
that's his hair
lol guess I missed their character creation
I just ran my first dungeon run last night and I completely agree. That AC dungeon is complete shit and a waste of time/money. I think I spent 7+ silver fixing my gear and my group only made it up to defeating the lieutenant. Looking up the rewards the dungeon isn't even worth doing in the end had we finished it. It sure as hell wouldn't be worth the hours of time where in normal gameplay I would be levelling faster, gaining money instead of losing money, getting more karma, completion, exploration and having fun. Even skills that might have been useful in the dungeon are tweaked so they aren't really. My warriors war banner could have been useful if it ressurects people but it only brings up rallying people who are going to most likely get up on their own anyways. Not to mention after a party member or two get downed you think I'm going to be able to have the time to summon the banner without getting interrupted by multiple 'normal' ghosts without being interrupted? On top of that the cooldown is so bloody long it's a skill I can only use once per room.
Perhaps I'm not getting something. We weren't the most skilled players on the server but my group are quite experienced players. Basically there was nothing good about the mechanics, loot, or enjoyment of the dungeon.
BattleMonkey
Member
How does item damage actually work? Got brand new pants off a vendor, got into one fight and got killed almost right after. Pants needed repair.
Sir Abacus
Member
1) People undervalue the value of stats. If you walk into level 30 dungeon wearing level 15 gear you're gonna have a bad time. Going into dungeons wearing stat relevant gear stop you from being two shot.
2) If you don't use your Ctrl key to see how to stop traps you're gonna have a bad time.
3) If you walk into the first room of AC and immediately open up every coffin you're gonna have a bad time.
4) If you don't use Ctrl-T to call targets (monks first, ranger second, ele/mes third) and focus them down you're gonna have a bad time.
Meanwhile back in Dragon Soul land I keep trying to double tap dodge out of shit on the ground.
Every time you die there's a chance to damage a random piece of gear.
Dungeon difficulty is currently broken. When you have champions that spawn elite enemies, even with structure I can't imagine that fight being easy. Perhaps broken is a harsh word but after writing my review I sorted my thoughts out. At its core the dungeons are fine but when details are added in, that's when it gets messed up.
Damn it, that hasn't happened to me yet but heaven help me I know it will.
XeroSauce
Member
Literally, any time you go "defeated", one part of your armor (at random I believe) gets damaged. If they all get damaged, you suffer a very severe penalty to defense and it costs more, so keep up on your repairs.
Forgot about that feature, could be useful when facing multiple ghosts at the same time. We pretty much just ended up all attacking whoever started to drop health fastest. I can't speak to others gear but I was level 40 with gear that was mostly level 35-40. My weapon was one that I just spent 10k karma one from the vendor at the end of the pirate maze on the south side of lions arch. Had a couple trap deaths before we figured out how to deal with them. Or main issue was being able to handle multiple 'normal' ghosts at the same time. Most of our success came when we were able to lure one away and deal with them one at a time. The only problem is the AI that's with you is constantly running ahead to pull as many enemies into the fight as possible.
After having some many issues with the first half of the dungeon I can't imagine how frustrating the lovers fight will be based on what I hear about them. I might have to change my weapons and skills. Right now i'm going sword/horn and I can basically only bleed or cripple. It seems conditions seems more important than damage in the dungeon.
Dying after dodge rolling off the side of the bridge in the middle of the dungeon sure didn't help my mood either
I found it was much cheaper to just let all my gear get completely broken. Repair costs for a couple damaged (But not broken) items were over a silver each time. Letting all 6 pieces of my armour get damaged and 3 of them get broken only ended up costing me about two and a half silver to repair. That ends up being a silver for 2 deaths, or 2 and a half silver for 9 deaths.
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