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Guild Wars 2 |OT3| Two Week Updates, One Box, Zero Subscriptions

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So this game is only €24 at the moment (until tomorrow). Is it worth it? I mean, that's less than 2 months sub to World of Warcraft, so I can't see why not. Especially given that I'm not a heavy user and will in no way have exhausted the game in that timeframe.

Is there anything I should know before buying it? As a fan of WoW and Diablo (for the great combat), would this game be a worthwhile purchase?
 
The answer is yes. It's more on the Diablo side than the WoW side in terms of combat (GW2's combat is animation based, so there's an active dodge button for totally mitigating incoming damage, like an action game). There's a lot of freedom to finesse the combat, add your own English to how a class plays. It's far less gear-centric than WoW. A good player in okay gear beats a player in great gear that can't play well.

The gear progression is straightforward, and once you hit the Exotic tier you're pretty set. You can craft the best gear for yourself, buy it off the auction house, or earn it doing dungeons/events. If you want extra flair, you could go for a Legendary weapon, but it's mostly for convenience and cosmetic.

No sub means you can play it at your own pace. There's plenty to do, the world is huge and pretty, and leveling is a breeze. Rewards are handed out like candy if you play regularly, and the only real "grind" is if you want to go for cosmetic stuff now instead of waiting for it to fall into your lap later.

Each class plays very differently, so try them all to find one that suits you. The "personal story" your character goes through can be very interesting depending on the choices you make.

You can go all the way to 80 solo, you only need to party up if you want to do dungeons, fractals, or the final personal story mission. The GAF guild can help there. The cooperative nature of the game is very ambient. You'll be doing stuff, someone might run up and help. There is no kill stealing, everyone gets the credit, and loot is instanced so you can't take someone else's loot.

I've invested almost 2000 hours in the game, and I'm still not bored. That's anecdotal and idiosyncratic, I know. But at least it means the *potential* is there for someone else to like it as much.

The only real important, super-critical advice I can give: forget everything you know about WoW, and approach Guild Wars 2 with a "beginner's mind". Get into the mindset of how it works, don't compare it to how WoW did things.

tumblr_m8wfaedsQI1ry6zrao1_500.jpg


And it has Charr.*

*Mileage may vary.
 

Trey

Member
Even though I never play it, I want to see GW2's pvp succeed. And if enough effort is put into it, people will come play it.
 
The stag helm is almost too good for a gem store item. It should be the sort of thing someone has to earn by doing something really hard. Four dye slots and it's just majestic as fuck.

pNuZoVz.jpg
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Do I need to be online in order to receive the invitation or can it happen even if I'm offline (and simply get a message when I log in)?

Also tbqh I see GW2 more as an action-adventure beat-em up game with RPG mechanics. Reminds me of Champions Online in essence.
 

Proven

Member
Go for 20/20/30/0/0 Prismatic Understanding? I'll look up a full build in the morning, but that's the basis behind one of the more popular condition builds. You'll be depending on the Chaos major trait that causes your clones to create a random condition (one of them being bleeding) when killed, along with the Dueling minor trait that let's clones cause bleeds on critical hits.

Because of a number of pros and cons, the build can adapt to almost any Mesmer weapon set, so pick the one you're most comfortable with. Scepter lets you stack extra conditions, Sword makes clones that chase the opponent, Torch does condition cleansing and stealthing, Focus has its speed boost and some extra utility, Greatsword clones do three hits so they stack bleeding faster, and Staff is a great defensive weapon. The only thing I can't recommend is Sword off hand unless you're going to swap some traits around and use Bountiful Interruption.

Make your elite Mass Invisibility, have one of your utilities be Decoy or Veil (most prefer Decoy), and alter everything else to fit your playstyle, including sigils and runes.

I forgot to mention Off Hand Pistol, which has the phantasm that's also great for stacking bleeds.

As an aside, while the GW2 forums overall have a nasty reputation, a number of the profession specific boards are a pleasure to visit. The best example is probably the Mesmer forum, where I first learned about the build I wrote about above. Here's a link to the thread: Blackwater Mesmer

There are a ton of variations to the build all made by other mesmers doing their own thing, which is why I insisted on just giving you the trait point allocation, a few necessary majors, and let you experiment on your own.
 
Do I need to be online in order to receive the invitation or can it happen even if I'm offline (and simply get a message when I log in)?

Also tbqh I see GW2 more as an action-adventure beat-em up game with RPG mechanics. Reminds me of Champions Online in essence.

You can get invite even if you are offline and accept it whenever you log in next. I do not know if anyone has invited you yet but when I get home in 4-5 hours I'll check. Hope the other officer see your post in the previous page and add you if they are on before me.
 

Vyrance

Member
Well, what's a good pvp game?

That's my issue with the argument. I've been playing MMOs since UO. And not once have I seen a game where people weren't saying the pvp was awful, terrible, shitty, etc. Its like there is some grandiose pvp-mmo out there that makes everything else look bad--but it doesn't exist and it never will.

Its just hard to take any of it seriously. Looking at the official forums, its all melodramatic bullshit.

Anyway. Lots of fractals. Lots of rings. Lots of seeing other people get skins. Blargh.

I never did play the game, but didn't people really enjoy DAOC?
 

nataku

Member
I just checked twitch, and apparently there's an Edge of the Mists test today? I didn't hear about anything.

I got an email in my spam folder about it, sent yesterday.

Tests are:

Tuesday, December 3rd
4-Hour Test: 8:00 AM – 12:00 PM
2-Hour Map Test: 5:00 PM – 7:00 PM

Wednesday, December 4th
4-Hour Test: 2:00 PM – 6:00 PM

Thursday, December 5th
2-Hour Map Test: 9:00 AM – 11:00 AM
4-Hour Test: 5:00 PM – 9:00 PM

All times are PST.

From now on, we’re going to run two different kinds of tests.

The first kind is the general 4-hour long test that we’ve been running over the past two weeks. This is the time we want you to play through however you want and as you would on a live environment.
The next kind of test will be a 2-hour long “Map Test” session. During this time, we ask that you focus less on actual PvP fighting and more so on trying to break the map. This includes but is not limited to the following:
- Try to sneak into keeps
- Break event chains
- Break props (Giant pink Charr statues!)

Try to find ways to get to areas you aren’t supposed to get to, like the 3 safe zones!
These tests may be shorter, but are just as valuable to us towards making the map as clean and bug-free as possible. We want people from all servers to cooperate to make this an easy process — please save any PvP for the 4-hour time frames unless specifically coordinated between guilds as a test that would be for the betterment of the Edge of the Mists map.

We’re going to be working from a bit more standardized schedule. For now, this is what you should expect to see every week — however, we do hope to add a weekend session in the near future. Times are subject to change, of course, so please keep checking up with the Testing Schedule forum for the latest updates!
 
The answer is yes. It's more on the Diablo side than the WoW side in terms of combat (GW2's combat is animation based, so there's an active dodge button for totally mitigating incoming damage, like an action game). There's a lot of freedom to finesse the combat, add your own English to how a class plays. It's far less gear-centric than WoW. A good player in okay gear beats a player in great gear that can't play well.

The gear progression is straightforward, and once you hit the Exotic tier you're pretty set. You can craft the best gear for yourself, buy it off the auction house, or earn it doing dungeons/events. If you want extra flair, you could go for a Legendary weapon, but it's mostly for convenience and cosmetic.

No sub means you can play it at your own pace. There's plenty to do, the world is huge and pretty, and leveling is a breeze. Rewards are handed out like candy if you play regularly, and the only real "grind" is if you want to go for cosmetic stuff now instead of waiting for it to fall into your lap later.

Each class plays very differently, so try them all to find one that suits you. The "personal story" your character goes through can be very interesting depending on the choices you make.

You can go all the way to 80 solo, you only need to party up if you want to do dungeons, fractals, or the final personal story mission. The GAF guild can help there. The cooperative nature of the game is very ambient. You'll be doing stuff, someone might run up and help. There is no kill stealing, everyone gets the credit, and loot is instanced so you can't take someone else's loot.

I've invested almost 2000 hours in the game, and I'm still not bored. That's anecdotal and idiosyncratic, I know. But at least it means the *potential* is there for someone else to like it as much.

The only real important, super-critical advice I can give: forget everything you know about WoW, and approach Guild Wars 2 with a "beginner's mind". Get into the mindset of how it works, don't compare it to how WoW did things.

tumblr_m8wfaedsQI1ry6zrao1_500.jpg


And it has Charr.*

*Mileage may vary.

Awesome post, I have nothing to add (or substract). It's great to read posts like this every now and then to realize, yes, there are lots of other people out there loving this game; they're just too busy playing to write about it regularly. :D
 
My cousin literally can't play the game because it's so dissimilar to WoW. He hates the fact that you have to think, react, and adapt mid-fight rather than just follow a specific boss strategy.

Never understood that. It's way more exciting for me.

A couple things I like about the game and I think are important to know:

- Make your character the way you want to. From what I've played (and I only have one level 80 so perhaps I'm not the best to say this but I will anyway), each class can perform different roles if you get the equipment and traits to make them perform how you want. My Warrior is a Damage Dealing/Shout Support hybrid (and I want to get a second armor set more geared towards defense and support). That doesn't mean some classes aren't more weighted towards a role, but you can overcome that.

- Combat is chaos until you realize it's not. Battles aren't based on sheer predictability like WoW, it's more about skill. (Playing with a controller really cemented this for me). Teamwork is less about following a single strategy and more recognizing when your skills can benefit the team. It's a pretty cool feeling to be fighting a few enemies, notice that the elementalist is low on health and about to die, roll over to him, pop 3 healing shouts to make him survive, and then continue with the fight.

- Adding to that last one, it's important that, no matter what your character is built for, you know how to deal some damage and survive when something is attacking you. Far as I can tell, fights can't be strictly controlled like they can in WoW or other MMOs.
 

Arcteryx

Member
My cousin literally can't play the game because it's so dissimilar to WoW. He hates the fact that you have to think, react, and adapt mid-fight rather than just follow a specific boss strategy.

Never understood that. It's way more exciting for me.

A couple things I like about the game and I think are important to know:

- Make your character the way you want to. From what I've played (and I only have one level 80 so perhaps I'm not the best to say this but I will anyway), each class can perform different roles if you get the equipment and traits to make them perform how you want. My Warrior is a Damage Dealing/Shout Support hybrid (and I want to get a second armor set more geared towards defense and support). That doesn't mean some classes aren't more weighted towards a role, but you can overcome that.

- Combat is chaos until you realize it's not. Battles aren't based on sheer predictability like WoW, it's more about skill. (Playing with a controller really cemented this for me). Teamwork is less about following a single strategy and more recognizing when your skills can benefit the team. It's a pretty cool feeling to be fighting a few enemies, notice that the elementalist is low on health and about to die, roll over to him, pop 3 healing shouts to make him survive, and then continue with the fight.

- Adding to that last one, it's important that, no matter what your character is built for, you know how to deal some damage and survive when something is attacking you. Far as I can tell, fights can't be strictly controlled like they can in WoW or other MMOs.

TBF, there's really nothing in GW2 that requires a whole lot of thought. I'd argue that the boss encounters in WoW are MUCH more in-depth. Aside from the first time you encounter an event...it's just the same-ol same-ol(like anything else).

Combat wise though, yes, it is much more fluid and enjoyable.
 
TBF, there's really nothing in GW2 that requires a whole lot of thought. I'd argue that the boss encounters in WoW are MUCH more in-depth. Aside from the first time you encounter an event...it's just the same-ol same-ol(like anything else).

Combat wise though, yes, it is much more fluid and enjoyable.

That's fair enough, and I would actually agree (though they're getting better with some of the more recent bosses).
 

Arcteryx

Member
That's fair enough, and I would actually agree (though they're getting better with some of the more recent bosses).

Yea the recent changes have been for the better, especially the Fractal changes(bugs aside).

I do wish that the Mistlock Instabilities weren't "locked" to a certain level. If they were truly random it would add a certain "oh shit" factor that I think is lacking from the overall game. It would be nice to see something similar added into current dungeons, perhaps an Explorable+ mode that adds unexpected changes to mechanics/the overall combat system.
 
Yeah I wouldn't mind if they added more random attacks from bosses especially some of the stationary ones that once you figure out the pattern they have zero chance of hitting you.

One boss that is really good at this is the Dredge fractal bosses I think because sure you have to lead them under the lava but the scramble of doing that and getting out of the almost 1 hit kills causes a lot of random things to happen.

Did this yesterday with Hawk, Roxie, Noisy Ninja & Aquila (Mordio), and Hawk said he wished the boss was just a boss fractal and I totally agree with it. It is much more fun as a boss fractal, the other stuff is just tedious.
 

Retro

Member
TBF, there's really nothing in GW2 that requires a whole lot of thought. I'd argue that the boss encounters in WoW are MUCH more in-depth.

Shocking, I know, but I have to disagree here.

While WoW-type raids have lots of interesting mechanics going on (and bosses in GW2 have them as well, especially the the newer ones), the "Holy Trinity" on which they are built immediately limits the capacity for depth before we even have a chance to really dig into the comparison.

Because of the Trinity, everyone has very specific roles with very specific tasks, and while the context in which those tasks are performed changes (i.e. the mechanics of the fight), everything else falls outside a given role's responsibility and might as well not exist. For any given WoW-style encounter, you do one of the following;
  • DPS damages as quickly as they can without getting aggro.
    or
  • Healers play whack-a-mole with the healing addon UI.
    or
  • Tanks spam threat generator and defensive skills and watch the threat addon to make sure they're always on top.

Because of the way the trinity works, you really can't perform a combination of roles; you will always under-perform in both compared to someone who is a 'specialist'. DPS doesn't heal or tank, Healers don't tank and rarely DPS (and only in specific phases where they're allowed), tanks don't heal and can't DPS because their gear commitments require them to nerf their damage stats in favor of mitigation.

Of course, you can break down any complex system to it's basic components and try to pass it off as simplistic at it's core, but when you break Guild Wars 2 down in the exact same way, you still have a surprisingly level of depth. For every GW2 encounter, you have to manage all of the following;
  • Damage (of course).
    and
  • Monitor your health.
    and
  • Use control abilities to manipulate the enemy or enemies' ability to move / damage.
    and
  • Maintain boons (remember, WoW's buffs are mostly long-duration pre-fight spells or quick Bloodlust-like bursts with long cooldowns).
With Guild Wars 2, you can't sit in your comfortable little groove and do 'your thing' because you need to essentially fulfill all roles of the 'trinity' at once. And that's leaving out all sorts of core mechanics like dodging, reviving downed players (only druids and warlocks had to worry about this in WoW, and usually only once per fight because of the cooldowns) and cross-profession combos that WoW simply doesn't have.

Beyond that, because threat isn't an easily monitored and managed variable, there's always the underlying unpredictability as well, whereas most WoW fights, once you have the mechanics down, are simply a matter of performing the dance steps and hoping nobody else screws them up. The unpredictability in a WoW style fight comes from the players, not the enemy as I think most gamers would expect.

I consider Tequatl, the Molten Duo, Frizz's Lab (the "laser room" in Aetherblade Retreat), the revamped AC bosses and maybe the Frozen Ocean and Dredge Fractal bosses as the best fights in GW2. I'd hold those up as easily some of the best fights in the genre, and I personally had more fun failing at those than I had beating WoW raids.

I do wish that the Mistlock Instabilities weren't "locked" to a certain level. If they were truly random it would add a certain "oh shit" factor that I think is lacking from the overall game. It would be nice to see something similar added into current dungeons, perhaps an Explorable+ mode that adds unexpected changes to mechanics/the overall combat system.

This, I definitely would like to see. Somebody data-mined Queen's Gauntlet-like "Gambits" and a Hard Mode dungeon system a while ago, I wonder if Fractals are the trail run of that.
 

Retro

Member
Ash. Quote them pics, sir.

Edit: Ah, you changed the second to a GIF.
Be a lamb and get the first one?
That'd be great, thanks.
 

Proven

Member
I got an email in my spam folder about it, sent yesterday.

Tests are:

Tuesday, December 3rd
4-Hour Test: 8:00 AM – 12:00 PM
2-Hour Map Test: 5:00 PM – 7:00 PM

Wednesday, December 4th
4-Hour Test: 2:00 PM – 6:00 PM

Thursday, December 5th
2-Hour Map Test: 9:00 AM – 11:00 AM
4-Hour Test: 5:00 PM – 9:00 PM

All times are PST.

That doesn't make sense. I've been playing for the last hour and a half and I'm still in right now. Did they just leave the server on? Let me see if it's in my spam folder...

Edit: Just checked the private forum (it was down when I posted before). The test today was shifted to 10:30 AM to 2:30 PM PST. So it's up for another hour and a half.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
So this game is only €24 at the moment (until tomorrow). Is it worth it?
I recommend buying it without hesitation. You will receive an enormous value for that sum.

If you'd like to join the GAF Guild, we are on Stormbluff Isle (though you can guest from any NA server). Just post a character name or account.#### here for an invite.
Also tbqh I see GW2 more as an action-adventure beat-em up game with RPG mechanics. Reminds me of Champions Online in essence.
Depending on character class/spec, I often feel this way as well. Playing with a controller really lends itself to "actiony" gameplay.
Fuuuck. Limited time helmet skins. So expensive when you consider they're just one piece in an armor set.
How long are they available?
Hawk said he wished the boss was just a boss fractal and I totally agree with it. It is much more fun as a boss fractal, the other stuff is just tedious.
If you think about that run, we reset once against Mai Trin (the "actual" boss fractal) and twice against the Ice Elemental. The latter also took more time. It's a really fun boss, and there are myriad ways to make it tougher at higher levels. It is a real shame because the rest of the Dredge Fractal has basically no value at all at this point; it's just frustrating and tedious, and even if the annoying stuff were fixed it would merely become not annoying rather than good. Especially tragic because I'm quite happy with literally every other fractal in the rotation.
Retro said:
I consider Tequatl, the Molten Duo, Frizz's Lab (the "laser room" in Aetherblade Retreat) the revamped AC bosses and maybe the Frozen Ocean and Dredge Fractal bosses as the best fights in GW2.
Just did this for the first time on a Fractal run (I missed the dungeon entirely before). It was awesome, what a fun room, and caught me really off guard.

I actually think Mai Trin is a pretty great boss too. It seems complex, annoying and random at first, but when you get it down it's quite simple and completely skill-based.
 
We never reset with Mai Trin because I never died. We just had to revive Mordio but there was no need to reset ever.

We also never wiped at the Elemental Boss, because again, I never died.
 

Moondrop

Banned
I compare GW2 gameplay to Monster Hunter, but that's probably just me.

I'm a bit concerned over the PvP overhaul. Gold rewards and leveling consumables seem likely to be abused. Retiring glory will probably be executed unfairly. Personally I'll be lucky to make Tiger before the ladders.

I'm optimistic about the new heals, the first all-new skills introduced since launch (don't you dare cite Antitoxin Spray). Yes, I know some skills have been significantly revamped but virtually nothing build-defining like these heals could be. I'm currently leveling a mesmer and a different heal would be welcome. New heals could also lead me to reconsider engineer and thief.

Warrior hammer is growing on me; I've got the right balance of tanky and CC. The only variable is my last Defense trait: I can justify Cleansing Ire, Defy Pain, and Spiked Armor.
 
TBF, there's really nothing in GW2 that requires a whole lot of thought. I'd argue that the boss encounters in WoW are MUCH more in-depth. Aside from the first time you encounter an event...it's just the same-ol same-ol(like anything else).

Combat wise though, yes, it is much more fluid and enjoyable.

As an Engineer, an Elite encounter (or surprise mobbing) in the Tower, just for me alone, is something like this:

"Oh shit! An Elite + a stunlock mob + several ranged just ambushed us.
1. Static Shot + Incendiary Ammo to blind/burn and confuse at least four of the mobs, making sure to hit the Elite first.
2. Magnetic Shield to bounce back some of the ranged aggro I just got, dat reflect!
3. Poison Dart Volley on Elite to prevent it regenerating some of the damage being done to it by the rest of the players around me.
4. Static Shield to block some of the melee mobs now tracking on me because I'm clearly a threat.
5. Throw Shield before Static Shield runs out at the Elite to interrupt it's charge-up AoE trip.

Now it gets fun.

1. Drop Healing Turret and hit its Cleansing Burst to remove some of the debuffs on the players.
2. Switch to Flame Thrower for a burst of speed (trait).
3. Shoot a Flame Blast at the Elite, Detonate as it gets near for some AoE on mobs around it.
4. Drop a Napalm line on Healing Turret.
5. Switch to Elixir Rifle.
6. Detonate Healing Turret on the Fire Field from the Flame Blast for Area Might stacks on players.
7. Quickly do a Magnetic Inversion on the Fire Field for more Area Might.
8. Acid Bomb on the same Fire Field for more Area Might, dropping an AoE poison field there, and moving me out of the ruckus a bit.
9. Rocket Boots to blast PAST that same the Fire Fire for MORE Area Might, taking me behind the Elite.

About 30 seconds have passed since combat started.

0. Drop the Healing Turret again and Cleansing Burst to get rick of group ick.
1. Switch back to Flame Thower to Flame Blast some mobs away from me.
2. Smoke Vent to blind the ones that blocked or I missed.
3. Rocket Kick the Elite in the ass just for fun.
4. Switch to Elixir Gun and Fumigate the Elite since I notice we're lacking Vulnerability stacks on it. Vary the spray to the sides a bit to cure conditions on ranged players near it.
5. Drop a Super Elixir orb on the Elite which is a Light field, so players shooting projectile finisher into it get conditions removed.
6. Switch back to Flamethower and Flame Jet the Elite and mobs for a bit, building up Might for myself due to Juggernaut. Waiting for Magnetic Shield.
7. Throw Shield to interrupt Elite when I notice it's charging up.

30 seconds later.

0. Static Shot + Incendiary some mobs.
1. Hit Cleansing Burst on Healing Turret, which creates a Water combo field.
2. Run into Water field.
3. Magnetic Inversion to blast AoE heals to everyone around me.
4. Detonate Healing Turret for another AoE heal. MORE HEALS?
5. Swap to Elixir Gun and Acid Bomb for ANOTHER AoE heal. HOW CAN ENGINEER HEAL SO MUCH!

Seriously, Engineer heals are insane. And I run Zengineer (full Celestial all the way, all trinkets, pistol and shield). And it's all AoE too. I've managed to bring an entire group back from disaster more times than I could count.

...

While all this is going on, I'm using Regenerating Mist to give allies Regeneration and make some Water combo fields they can blast, leap, or whirl through. I'll be sure to do it near Warriors doing Whirling attacks, because that helps a lot.

I'm also using Healing Mist to break myself out of stun or reset my animations if I need to do faster bundle swapping.

Where I find the time, I use the pistol's basic Explosive Shot to bleed enemies. Ironically, in spite of people saying you can just hit 1 and autoattack to victory, my 1 skill autoattack is almost the least-used skill.

Meanwhile, everyone *else* is doing *tons of stuff* that help the battle not result in failure. Or, sometimes, they're not, and when I realize things are going south and I can't carry the group, I Rocket Boot the hell out of there and res them once the mob has moved on or I get backup.

tl:dr; It's not that combat in GW2 doesn't require a lot of thought, but rather, a lot of it comes *naturally*.

After playing for a while, you're responding to things in the right way thanks to experience, knowing which things to blind, which ones to stun, which ones to interrupt and when. Which debuffs to prioritize removing. And of course, the mainstay of WoW mechanics is also there, ever-present: don't stand in the fire.

I'm a retired raid healer, resto Tauren shaman. I made the bars go up, and even had some DPS inbetween making sure the tank doesn't die, because then the baby starts crying. I knew the rotations. It was all about rotations. Rotations rotations rotations. Like playing baa baa black sheep on the piano. Don't get me wrong, I *really* enjoyed my time playing WoW, especially the super-serious raid content. I was in a great guild, we got together regularly, and I learned a lot. I played a healer because I wanted a challenge. DPS just didn't do it for me, nor tanking.

I don't miss the Holy Trinity. I really don't. It was fun for a while, but I've seen what things can be like without it, and I think it's better this way.

In Guild Wars 2, your sense of agency and ability is better than I've ever experienced in an MMO, the only thing I felt came close was Vindictus, but that was a glorified coop Source mod. It could get away with some impact combat because it wasn't doing a whole lot else in the instanced levels.

I have noticed though that in Guild Wars 2, a lot of people are being carried. A *lot*. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to resurrect 'Zerk warriors. I res clothies less than zerk warriors. But that's just a personal pet peeve: this notion that 'DPS uber alles', when in reality, I'd rather have things take a bit longer but people know how to play so I don't have to keep rubbing their downed asses.

I digress. At the end of the day, the combat in GW2 is fun. It's immediate, *feels* good, and I like being able to tell what's going on without having to look at icons or timers. If someone is crippled, they limp! If someone is poisoned, they're green! If someone is building might stacks, their character shouts stuff out to indicate it's happening. You could turn off your UI and just listen to the game, watching the battle, and get at least 70% of the signal you need to make the informed choices needed from you moment to moment.

Effects LOD helped a lot, though there needs to be more work done in cleaning up the mess a battle creates onscreen. Better enemy outlines, the ability to have them with post-processing off, more AoE indicators with priority, cleaner visualizations of the different Combo fields, etc.

Granted, perhaps I'm experiencing a different game. Put five blind men in a room with an elephant, and you have five different animals described to you.

I would agree that I think Anet should ramp it up. Design harder encounters. The Queen's Pavilion Gauntlet was totally on the right track, those could have all been dungeon bosses on their own.
 

Hawkian

The Cryptarch's Bane
We never reset with Mai Trin because I never died. We just had to revive Mordio but there was no need to reset ever.

We also never wiped at the Elemental Boss, because again, I never died.
These are not accurate statements.
I still haven't done the revamped Tequatl fight... I should do that tonight. Is it really that good?
It is my favorite post-launch addition to the game. (Though this is in large part due to the fact that I hadn't taken part in a "raiding" atmosphere before, and participated in Stormbluff Isle's server-first kill.)

Some notes:
  • He is not always- or anywhere close to always- defeated, so you need to be in for a "serious" kill. Either SBI's reset kill at 8:01PM EST, or an overflow run by the TTS organization are your best bets.
  • If you want to get into the main server for the attempt, I recommend showing up to Sparkfly Fen by no later than 7:30PM. It sucks to have to wait, but there's plenty of champs and other stuff to do in Sparkfly if you get bored in the meantime.
  • It's a great idea to, if you are in for SBI, get on the TS and join the Teq channel for your first time.
  • The group participating in the fight is broken up into a main DPS, two sets of turret operators and turret defenders, a havoc squad that runs around killing fingers, and various groups for the battery defense phases. Learn "where you belong" before the fight begins.
  • You cannot critically hit Teq (or any other massive world boss) and survivability is hugely beneficial, rendering Berserker's gear rather ill-suited to the fight. Soldier's or similar gear is your best bet all around, though if you are on turret defense this does not apply (in fact, berserker's/condition specs are best for that).
  • Recommended food/potions are anything that increase power or survivability.
 

Arcteryx

Member
Shocking, I know, but I have to disagree here.

While WoW-type raids have lots of interesting mechanics going on (and bosses in GW2 have them as well, especially the the newer ones), the "Holy Trinity" on which they are built immediately limits the capacity for depth before we even have a chance to really dig into the comparison.

Because of the Trinity, everyone has very specific roles with very specific tasks, and while the context in which those tasks are performed changes (i.e. the mechanics of the fight), everything else falls outside a given role's responsibility and might as well not exist. For any given WoW-style encounter, you do one of the following;
  • DPS damages as quickly as they can without getting aggro.
    or
  • Healers play whack-a-mole with the healing addon UI.
    or
  • Tanks spam threat generator and defensive skills and watch the threat addon to make sure they're always on top.

Because of the way the trinity works, you really can't perform a combination of roles; you will always under-perform in both compared to someone who is a 'specialist'. DPS doesn't heal or tank, Healers don't tank and rarely DPS (and only in specific phases where they're allowed), tanks don't heal and can't DPS because their gear commitments require them to nerf their damage stats in favor of mitigation.

Of course, you can break down any complex system to it's basic components and try to pass it off as simplistic at it's core, but when you break Guild Wars 2 down in the exact same way, you still have a surprisingly level of depth. For every GW2 encounter, you have to manage all of the following;
  • Damage (of course).
    and
  • Monitor your health.
    and
  • Use control abilities to manipulate the enemy or enemies' ability to move / damage.
    and
  • Maintain boons (remember, WoW's buffs are mostly long-duration pre-fight spells or quick Bloodlust-like bursts with long cooldowns).
With Guild Wars 2, you can't sit in your comfortable little groove and do 'your thing' because you need to essentially fulfill all roles of the 'trinity' at once. And that's leaving out all sorts of core mechanics like dodging, reviving downed players (only druids and warlocks had to worry about this in WoW, and usually only once per fight because of the cooldowns) and cross-profession combos that WoW simply doesn't have.

Beyond that, because threat isn't an easily monitored and managed variable, there's always the underlying unpredictability as well, whereas most WoW fights, once you have the mechanics down, are simply a matter of performing the dance steps and hoping nobody else screws them up. The unpredictability in a WoW style fight comes from the players, not the enemy as I think most gamers would expect.

I consider Tequatl, the Molten Duo, Frizz's Lab (the "laser room" in Aetherblade Retreat), the revamped AC bosses and maybe the Frozen Ocean and Dredge Fractal bosses as the best fights in GW2. I'd hold those up as easily some of the best fights in the genre, and I personally had more fun failing at those than I had beating WoW raids.

This, I definitely would like to see. Somebody data-mined Queen's Gauntlet-like "Gambits" and a Hard Mode dungeon system a while ago, I wonder if Fractals are the trail run of that.

I was specifically addressing the boss mechanics themselves, not the overall class system/lack of trinity in GW2.

I agree that the lack of trinity potentially makes for more varied encounters, however, that doesn't necessarily mean that the combat is more involved. Honestly, I think a lot of the mechanics are just too easy with the current system(as you often have condi cleanse out the whazzoo, prot, stability, regen, etc.). Yes, you're often more involved on a personal level with heals, but I feel like the rest is often covered many times over by the rest of the group(assuming you have a balanced group and not running with 5 thieves).

So yes, there is potentially more to manage on a personal level, but I just don't feel like the current system is emphasizing it enough. Often times heals/condi cleanse aren't even necessary with the amount of passive abilities classes have, not to mention the VERY obvious boss telegraphs.

The reason Gambits/Mistlock are awesome is that they focus HEAVILY on maximum skill usage and knowledge of your class. If the Gambit/Mistlock causes death on Elite use, then that would gimp some abilities/classes and force others to take up the slack or require complete re-thinking of builds. The same goes for Gambit/Mistlock that ignores reflects, thus requiring a switch to more "bunker" type builds favoring stability, prot, regen, blocks, etc. over the Guardian/Mesmer reflections.

Even without trinity there is still a focus on certain classes being the backbone of the group(or at the very least filling a defined role). Anything that flips that around or encourages build diversity is awesome in my book. Couple that with boss encounters that could be radically altered due to the current Gambit/Mistlock (say no jumping allowed...which would make Molten Duo fun) and I think it would GREATLY improve the lastly appeal(as well as difficulty).

As an Engineer, an Elite encounter (or surprise mobbing) in the Tower, just for me alone, is something like this:

"Oh shit! An Elite + a stunlock mob + several ranged just ambushed us.
1. Static Shot + Incendiary Ammo to blind/burn and confuse at least four of the mobs, making sure to hit the Elite first.
2. Magnetic Shield to bounce back some of the ranged aggro I just got, dat reflect!
3. Poison Dart Volley on Elite to prevent it regenerating some of the damage being done to it by the rest of the players around me.
4. Static Shield to block some of the melee mobs now tracking on me because I'm clearly a threat.
5. Throw Shield before Static Shield runs out at the Elite to interrupt it's charge-up AoE trip.

Now it gets fun.

1. Drop Healing Turret and hit its Cleansing Burst to remove some of the debuffs on the players.
2. Switch to Flame Thrower for a burst of speed (trait).
3. Shoot a Flame Blast at the Elite, Detonate as it gets near for some AoE on mobs around it.
4. Drop a Napalm line on Healing Turret.
5. Switch to Elixir Rifle.
6. Detonate Healing Turret on the Fire Field from the Flame Blast for Area Might stacks on players.
7. Quickly do a Magnetic Inversion on the Fire Field for more Area Might.
8. Acid Bomb on the same Fire Field for more Area Might, dropping an AoE poison field there, and moving me out of the ruckus a bit.
9. Rocket Boots to blast PAST that same the Fire Fire for MORE Area Might, taking me behind the Elite.

About 30 seconds have passed since combat started.

0. Drop the Healing Turret again and Cleansing Burst to get rick of group ick.
1. Switch back to Flame Thower to Flame Blast some mobs away from me.
2. Smoke Vent to blind the ones that blocked or I missed.
3. Rocket Kick the Elite in the ass just for fun.
4. Switch to Elixir Gun and Fumigate the Elite since I notice we're lacking Vulnerability stacks on it. Vary the spray to the sides a bit to cure conditions on ranged players near it.
5. Drop a Super Elixir orb on the Elite which is a Light field, so players shooting projectile finisher into it get conditions removed.
6. Switch back to Flamethower and Flame Jet the Elite and mobs for a bit, building up Might for myself due to Juggernaut. Waiting for Magnetic Shield.
7. Throw Shield to interrupt Elite when I notice it's charging up.

30 seconds later.

0. Static Shot + Incendiary some mobs.
1. Hit Cleansing Burst on Healing Turret, which creates a Water combo field.
2. Run into Water field.
3. Magnetic Inversion to blast AoE heals to everyone around me.
4. Detonate Healing Turret for another AoE heal. MORE HEALS?
5. Swap to Elixir Gun and Acid Bomb for ANOTHER AoE heal. HOW CAN ENGINEER HEAL SO MUCH!

Seriously, Engineer heals are insane. And I run Zengineer (full Celestial all the way, all trinkets, pistol and shield). And it's all AoE too. I've managed to bring an entire group back from disaster more times than I could count.

...

While all this is going on, I'm using Regenerating Mist to give allies Regeneration and make some Water combo fields they can blast, leap, or whirl through. I'll be sure to do it near Warriors doing Whirling attacks, because that helps a lot.

I'm also using Healing Mist to break myself out of stun or reset my animations if I need to do faster bundle swapping.

Where I find the time, I use the pistol's basic Explosive Shot to bleed enemies. Ironically, in spite of people saying you can just hit 1 and autoattack to victory, my 1 skill autoattack is almost the least-used skill.

Meanwhile, everyone *else* is doing *tons of stuff* that help the battle not result in failure. Or, sometimes, they're not, and when I realize things are going south and I can't carry the group, I Rocket Boot the hell out of there and res them once the mob has moved on or I get backup.

tl:dr; It's not that combat in GW2 doesn't require a lot of thought, but rather, a lot of it comes *naturally*.

After playing for a while, you're responding to things in the right way thanks to experience, knowing which things to blind, which ones to stun, which ones to interrupt and when. Which debuffs to prioritize removing. And of course, the mainstay of WoW mechanics is also there, ever-present: don't stand in the fire.

I'm a retired raid healer, resto Tauren shaman. I made the bars go up, and even had some DPS inbetween making sure the tank doesn't die, because then the baby starts crying. I knew the rotations. It was all about rotations. Rotations rotations rotations. Like playing baa baa black sheep on the piano. Don't get me wrong, I *really* enjoyed my time playing WoW, especially the super-serious raid content. I was in a great guild, we got together regularly, and I learned a lot. I played a healer because I wanted a challenge. DPS just didn't do it for me, nor tanking.

I don't miss the Holy Trinity. I really don't. It was fun for a while, but I've seen what things can be like without it, and I think it's better this way.

In Guild Wars 2, your sense of agency and ability is better than I've ever experienced in an MMO, the only thing I felt came close was Vindictus, but that was a glorified coop Source mod. It could get away with some impact combat because it wasn't doing a whole lot else in the instanced levels.

I have noticed though that in Guild Wars 2, a lot of people are being carried. A *lot*. I cannot tell you how many times I've had to resurrect 'Zerk warriors. I res clothies less than zerk warriors. But that's just a personal pet peeve: this notion that 'DPS uber alles', when in reality, I'd rather have things take a bit longer but people know how to play so I don't have to keep rubbing their downed asses.

I digress. At the end of the day, the combat in GW2 is fun. It's immediate, *feels* good, and I like being able to tell what's going on without having to look at icons or timers. If someone is crippled, they limp! If someone is poisoned, they're green! If someone is building might stacks, their character shouts stuff out to indicate it's happening. You could turn off your UI and just listen to the game, watching the battle, and get at least 70% of the signal you need to make the informed choices needed from you moment to moment.

Effects LOD helped a lot, though there needs to be more work done in cleaning up the mess a battle creates onscreen. Better enemy outlines, the ability to have them with post-processing off, more AoE indicators with priority, cleaner visualizations of the different Combo fields, etc.

Granted, perhaps I'm experiencing a different game. Put five blind men in a room with an elephant, and you have five different animals described to you.

I would agree that I think Anet should ramp it up. Design harder encounters. The Queen's Pavilion Gauntlet was totally on the right track, those could have all been dungeon bosses on their own.

No, I definitely have those moments too, I just think they are few and far between. A lot depends on group comp, build, and your class. Engineer is definitely one of the more involved/fun classes IMO, with a lot of case-by-case tools to utilize. Maybe they need to branch out with some of the other classes; I dunno. The game can radically change in playstyle based upon what class you're playing; I guarantee doing boss X on my Guardian vs on my Engineer would be a totally different experience, and while I LIKE that, I also feel like it should be more "even".

I'm not disagreeing that there is potentially a lot of depth to the game, just that the mechanics of bosses in general don't do enough to promote it. The Dredge fractal is a good example of this as it's basically just kiting the boss around until they die. Their agony attacks are ALL very well telegraphed and there just isn't enough going on in the background to really do much other than walk around in a circle(with some occasional reflects/dodges). If they dropped the boss HP, obfuscated the attacks more, and perhaps added in some other mechanics(like trash mobs scaling in dmg based upon boss HP; making you have to clear them out along the way too) I think you could definitely get a much more engaging experience out of it.

There are times when it just feels flat and very un-involved and other times when it's just PERFECT with people comboing off each other and stuff dropping in seconds. When everything clicks together is probably the best part of the game :)

tl;dr: more varied encounters = more varied playstyle = less zerker warriors :p
 
I'm not disagreeing that there is potentially a lot of depth to the game, just that the mechanics of bosses in general don't do enough to promote it.

There are times when it just feels flat and very un-involved and other times when it's just PERFECT with people comboing off each other and stuff dropping in seconds. When everything clicks together is probably the best part of the game :)

I can't argue there. In fact, I agree wholeheartedly. They need to rush on that tutorial, to get the average playerbase up to speed. They need to emphasize how combo fields work, and that vul/might stacks are super important. And then, they need to make all players trial by fire through boss encounters that literally force you to either sink or swim.

(Even though I realize this would totally destroy the "casual" nature of the game, it'd be so good for it.)

But if they don't, I'd settle for just more varied and tough boss encounters, like the Queen's Gauntlet. It does feel like Anet isn't using the system to its full potential.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
If I had to explain the problem with GW2 it might go: in a stylish action-combat game, the design of enemies and structure of encounter groups is as important as the move set of the player character and the combo system. And GW2 is like a stylish action game which possesses an intricate game system, but only a handful of enemies and encounter scenarios which are designed to work with that game system.

In short, much of the time PVE combat rests on player-created depth, not depth intrinsic in the encounters which demand the player master them to excel.

But every so often there is a particular type of enemy, a section of a dungeon, or a boss, which feels as if their designers were in fact working on the same game as the rest of us are playing.
 

Mxrz

Member
I never did play the game, but didn't people really enjoy DAOC?

Yes. But lots and lots and lots and lots of bitching about Archer one hit kills and instant-inviso-stealth. Which more or less weren't changed that first year I played. If I remember right, there was a lot of "This game is awful, cant wait for Shadowbane. A real pvp game." or some such.

If Mistlocks were random, people would just roll for an easy one. I think pugs are already working to skip 41 or 42? because of it. Maybe at higher levels they could add an additional mini effect at random. But overall I love the changes. So many people in berserker armor complaining. Suddenly staying alive isn't all about stacking.

Depth wise, playing a GW1 monk both in pvp and pve was the most involved mmo-gaming I've done. Watching actual health bars was the least important thing. It came down to watching your teams location, the enemy, anticipating spikes, timing cleanses (vs covered conditions & hexes) and managing your energy by balancing risk, timing, and energy costs. All that while being the biggest target on the field, and knowing you were SOL if you were ever caught out of position.

There is really nothing like that in GW2.
 

Retro

Member
I actually think Mai Trin is a pretty great boss too. It seems complex, annoying and random at first, but when you get it down it's quite simple and completely skill-based.

Ya know, I had her on the list of best boss fights, but I only did it twice so I feel like I didn't get a grasp on it. A lot of it felt like chaos and at the time there were two strategies that suggested wildly different things. That's the same reason the new TA path boss isn't on there; I've only done him once or twice, I think.

I need to fix this sometime. Being out of town for a rough week (and everything that trip entailed) threw me all off. I still feel like my sleep schedule isn't 100% and we've been home for a week.

As an Engineer, an Elite encounter (or surprise mobbing) in the Tower, just for me alone, is something like this.

For me, it's.

1. Roll up with my Flamethrower out all day, ev'ry day to get them 5 Juggernaut might stacks.
2. Pop Elixir B for another three, courtesy of HGH.
3. Burn everything.
4. Repeat step 3 until all is ash.

(Joking, I just wanted to be snarky in response to your giant list of awesome. I do love my flamethrower).

I don't miss the Holy Trinity. I really don't. It was fun for a while, but I've seen what things can be like without it, and I think it's better this way.

See, for me, it was the other way. When I started raiding, all of my gamer instincts cried out that something was very very wrong. Enemies shouldn't snap to somebody just because they press "2". They should turn around and look at the healers keeping the tank alive and stomp them into the whack-a-mole hole they popped out of, then turn on the clump of DPS that had been 'unnoticed' behind him, stabbing his asshole, and turn them into charcoal briquets. Then roast the tank in his armor, since he actually represented the smallest threat.

GW2, for me, has taken the better parts of the MMO genre and combined it with the staples of 'real gaming'... I don't think you could have better combat without crossing into Dark Souls territory (at which point you alienate people). Moondrop's comment about it being Monster Hunter-esque is right on, though I feel like GW2 is a little less 'weighty' (something TERA felt like it was going for, but it was too heavy, to the point of feeling cumbersome). Banish definitely feels like a Monster Hunter kind of attack.

On that note, I need a controller for Christmas so I can see what all the fuss is about...

I was specifically addressing the boss mechanics themselves, not the overall class system/lack of trinity in GW2.

I agree that the lack of trinity potentially makes for more varied encounters, however, that doesn't necessarily mean that the combat is more involved. Honestly, I think a lot of the mechanics are just too easy with the current system(as you often have condi cleanse out the whazzoo, prot, stability, regen, etc.). Yes, you're often more involved on a personal level with heals, but I feel like the rest is often covered many times over by the rest of the group(assuming you have a balanced group and not running with 5 thieves).

That's fair. I guess I sort of look at it holistically; the boss mechanics work the way they do because of the way the trinity works. Guild Wars 2, to me, feels like fighting an actual enemy that behaves in a way you'd expect rather than a predictable bundle of polygons that behaves in an artificial, mechanical way that's pretty much the polar opposite of how an enemy would behave.

I do agree that they need to kick it up a notch in terms of difficulty, and I think the examples I mentioned are an indicator of that (along with the Queen's Gauntlet). Stuff like that puts a huge smile on my face.

The reason Gambits/Mistlock are awesome is that they focus HEAVILY on maximum skill usage and knowledge of your class.

Yeah, that's why the data-mined Hard Mode stuff raised a lot of eyebrows around here. The existing dungeons feel about right for casual, weeknight runs with whoever happens to be on, and that's a good thing in and of itself. Hard Mode stuff, especially with randomized (or, at the very least, less predictable) Gambits applied, sounds like something you get on to do on the weekend with the same circle of friends / guildies. I like a nice variety of difficulties and so far, GW2 doesn't really have the tough stuff outside of a few examples.

Engineer is definitely one of the more involved/fun classes IMO, with a lot of case-by-case tools to utilize. Maybe they need to branch out with some of the other classes; I dunno. The game can radically change in playstyle based upon what class you're playing; I guarantee doing boss X on my Guardian vs on my Engineer would be a totally different experience, and while I LIKE that, I also feel like it should be more "even".

You'll hear no complaints here, I've been saying since before launch that the trait system is probably my biggest disappointment with the game. So much of it is that boring, passive stat-boosting stuff. More of it should be mechanic-oriented. It's funny you mention the Guardian because of all the classes I play I feel like they're the most passive. On the other hand, Engineer and Thief feel the most 'involved'. I love my warrior for the versatility, but in terms of straight up getting into a groove, when I'm "on" with my thief, I'm ON. I like playing the "how many things can I kill without getting injured" game.

It's not quoted here, but I also agree that a lot of bosses feel like damage sponges. Hopefully that slowly changes, the ones they've been adding (with the exception of the Toxic Hybrid, who only seems that way because his attacks are so weak).

And then, they need to make all players trial by fire through boss encounters that literally force you to either sink or swim.

I'd rather see them implement actual "Hard Mode" content, not in the lame MMO "give everything more HP and hit twice as hard" sense, but in the actual gaming sense; enemy placement and attacks are trickier, Gambit-like mechanics and environmental hazards that change the way fights take place.

And instead of putting shiny new rewards that everyone must have, simply increase the existing rewards to compliment the risk. Doing a Hard Mode dungeon should award more tokens than usual, and a higher chance for loot (but nothing exclusive). Otherwise, "Hard mode" just becomes the new "normal" and nobody runs regular stuff (see Heroics in WoW).
 
When I look at people being unable to do Golem MK II, I just don't know if the community can handle anything beyond skill 1 autoattack :p

(To be fair, Taco is on farm now, and people used to claim it impossible. So perhaps there IS hope, provided the appeal of doing the content is there?)

But I do agree - the Hard Mode from GW1 dungeons needs to return. That was a good way to handle people wanting more challenging content, without alienating the people who just want to look pretty.
 

Mxrz

Member
Problem there.

When HM hit, pugs for normals ended. Heroes/hench had something to do with that, but also assured you had something to fall back on for normal mode stuff. I'd much rather have newer, harder content or dungeon paths than doing such a decisive split.
 
Fair point. Perhaps Taco is a good example then of the path they should take. I really hope Shatterer gets the treatment next, still my favorite of all the dragons:

It's entrance is like, KABRAHM:

iUOxeZHZeZTdu.jpg


Then it's all like, sup. You can attack my toes, I don't care:

ibrGGAJAEeL4Ju.jpg


Pity it's a total pushover right now :p
 

Proven

Member
Okay, real talk. All balance issues aside, am I the only one that enjoys the flavor of Necromancer being a burst class with conditions and a sustain class with power damage, instead of the reverse seen as the natural order of things?
 
Right now in sPvP, I have no idea what the Necro meta is, other than every time I come up against one it's hidden somewhere in a cloud of minions. And heaven help me if there are two, or three, on a team. And they're always the smallest size Asura.
 

Boss Doggie

all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I notice Thief getting reworked a lot. I also bet it's their favorite class, apparently it's broken in PvP.

Poor engineer ;_;
 
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