The dream is dead.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Guild Wars 2 |OT5| We've got fun and games
- Thread starter Retro
- Start date
- Status
The dream is dead.
Considering the game is no sub, I think it's fair to charge that much personally.
recap what is included for $50
- New Class (and now extra character slot)
- Elites Specializations for every class (including new one)
- New Zones with new traversal elements
- New Progression and rewards
- New PVP mode
- New WvW map
- Guild Halls (which appears to be a pretty massive feature in overall scope)
And the stuff that hasn't been fully revealed. New stuff with Fractals, "challenging group content," Presumably another living world season (I feel this is obvious but hasn't been officially said. I guess correct me if Im wrong)
AzureRonin
Member
That's true, I prefer this way rather than say The Old Republic where you have to sub PLUS pay for the expansion (meanwhile not subbing is a horrendous slog).
Any idea regarding Season 1 playability? Or should I just get into Season 2?
The core game launched at $60, then they dropped the price to $50 in May 2013. It's been that price on their site ever since, sales notwithstanding (where it's dropped as low as $10). A lot of retailers (greenmangaming especially) have been running almost constant sales on it though, when they can keep it in stock.
Now that HoT is available for purchase, the core game basically doesn't exist as a separate purchase anymore (directly from ArenaNet, at least)
As for Season One, the most we've heard has basically been "We want to do it someday, but not at the expense of adding new content." Whether that's a nice / evasive way of saying "No" or they're legitimately working on it but not dedicating a lot of resources to it, I can't say.
There's no "free account" unless you buy HoT without registering it to your existing account, which would leave your existing characters excluded from all the content.
I know that feel, we were just talking about names being squatted on last night... and just as WoW announced they're tossing names back into the hopper for accounts that haven't been active since 2010.
Worth adding that FFXIV: Heavensward was $40, without the core game (another $20) and a subscription ($15 / month). Warlords of Draenor was $50, without the core game ($10) and a subscription ($15 / month). WoD did include an instant Level 90 item, which they normally sell for the outrageous price of $60 (really, $60 for the privileged to not play a huge chunk of their game, even if big parts of it are almost 10 years old).
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Azure,
the truth is that we don't know. Season 1 was very much a stumble. They where developing it as they went along so a lot of the content doesn't work by just bringing it back. Much of it was world events. Servers would crash, people wouldnt get their rewards.
We know that they have talked about bringing back the best moments (marionette!) into fractal dungeons, but we don't know when or how or what. The best you can do is read up on the season 1 story and then do Season 2! It's a convoluted, but there it is!
Guild Wars 2 was $60, so not surprising to see the expansion be just $10 less, not to mention it also a expansion to a game that doesn't have a subscription fee, compare to FF XIV and WoW that their expansions have similar price tag.
Uh, perhaps I misread the references to July 31st in the post.
So with the big changes tomorrow, is there anything that anyone is NOT looking forward to?
Over the past several days I got my Necro from like 15 to level 36 and am really loving the class and am hyped as hell for Reaper, but I'm kinda annoyed at the nerf to Consume Conditions. I mean, I understand we can spread our conditions, but the nerf to CC seems like something aimed straight at PvP more than anything else, and for PvE seems like it will be nothing more than an annoyance to deal with. I was also looking forward to unlocking Plague too, but even that is getting nerfed with self applied conditions.
Over the past several days I got my Necro from like 15 to level 36 and am really loving the class and am hyped as hell for Reaper, but I'm kinda annoyed at the nerf to Consume Conditions. I mean, I understand we can spread our conditions, but the nerf to CC seems like something aimed straight at PvP more than anything else, and for PvE seems like it will be nothing more than an annoyance to deal with. I was also looking forward to unlocking Plague too, but even that is getting nerfed with self applied conditions.
I dunno if you misread it, but I'm not sure it's a clue either. Seems like they're giving people a month to figure out what they want to do or get things sorted out.
If it comes out August 1st though, I'll buy you the fanciest of gem store hats. I'll be in a good mood anyways because I'm honestly expecting September or October.
Yeah, I am pretty annoyed with the last reported shipping state of condition builds for Necro. I have been asking for condition stacking changes since launch mainly for sake of this class, and in the patch it is finally happening the opportunity cost of heavy corruption builds has gotten totally fucked up. Super frustrating for me, I'll just still be running a wellshroud build after waiting all this time for uncapped conditions.
My list for HoT
What you can't play without Heart of Thorns:
What Heart of Thorns development has funded, but we get without needing to buy the expansion:
I'm torn about the free character slot. I've spent the past week planning out what I would spend $50 worth of gems on. But if I buy the $100 bundle then I'll have an extra character slot sitting around that will annoy me for the end of days. But if I don't buy it and want to be ultra cheap, I can delete and remake the characters on their birthday (although one of them, the Thief, is level 80 already, and my Mesmer has eaten a lot of Tomes of Knowledge over the past year...). I could also just spend the money on just two total makeover kits which would be way, way cheaper than the name contracts or complete remake kits. But of course, I wouldn't be able to save the excess gems or spend them on a handful of extra account upgrades.
ANet, I asked before for you to make it easier for me to spend my money. I completely understand why you didn't give 800 gems because, as Retro mentioned, the number of people who could log in and cash those gems into character slots would cause problems. I just wish I could get a character slot or something else!
I'm likely to buy the $50 pack by the first beta weekend and then spend up to $50 in gems around the game's launch. So I guess that's that.
This is likely because Robert Gee is all about thematic traits and trade offs while other devs are about straight buffs or nerfs. All Corruption skills hurt you in some way as a "cost" for using them, so from a thematic standpoint making them more powerful increases their cost in some way. Personally I like it, and would like more mastery traits like it (both Mesmer and Necro are filled with a number of mastery traits that aren't necessarily a straight buff), but the outrage is likely to get it changed by the next balance pass, if not before.
What you can't play without Heart of Thorns:
- New Profession - Revenant
- Elite Specializations
- Unlocking Guild Halls and the multitude of new things that come with them, including Scribe, Arenas that GvG can move out of WvW into, and more (need more info for guilds that have some amount without the expansion)
- New Maps - New Events, Jumping Puzzles, Meta Events, Weapon and Armor Skins, Adventures
- Continuation of Main Storyline
- Heart of Thorns specific Masteries
What Heart of Thorns development has funded, but we get without needing to buy the expansion:
- Specialization System and the rebalance that came with it
- Mastery System - Precursor Crafting and other things
- Basic Guild functionality
- New PvP map and mode - Stronghold
- New WvW map - Desert Borderlands
- New PvE map or zone progression systems - alternate currencies to unlock things similar to Dry Top and Silverwastes
I'm torn about the free character slot. I've spent the past week planning out what I would spend $50 worth of gems on. But if I buy the $100 bundle then I'll have an extra character slot sitting around that will annoy me for the end of days. But if I don't buy it and want to be ultra cheap, I can delete and remake the characters on their birthday (although one of them, the Thief, is level 80 already, and my Mesmer has eaten a lot of Tomes of Knowledge over the past year...). I could also just spend the money on just two total makeover kits which would be way, way cheaper than the name contracts or complete remake kits. But of course, I wouldn't be able to save the excess gems or spend them on a handful of extra account upgrades.
ANet, I asked before for you to make it easier for me to spend my money. I completely understand why you didn't give 800 gems because, as Retro mentioned, the number of people who could log in and cash those gems into character slots would cause problems. I just wish I could get a character slot or something else!
I'm likely to buy the $50 pack by the first beta weekend and then spend up to $50 in gems around the game's launch. So I guess that's that.
This is likely because Robert Gee is all about thematic traits and trade offs while other devs are about straight buffs or nerfs. All Corruption skills hurt you in some way as a "cost" for using them, so from a thematic standpoint making them more powerful increases their cost in some way. Personally I like it, and would like more mastery traits like it (both Mesmer and Necro are filled with a number of mastery traits that aren't necessarily a straight buff), but the outrage is likely to get it changed by the next balance pass, if not before.
Nemesis121
Member
Boooooooo now i am really salty about that fucking price, I am 10000000% will not even come close to 60% of the core game content...
Update on this; WoodenPotatoes instead decied to do a short video about the Community Address and will release the HoT Summary one "sometime tomorrow." Sorry about that, I'll PM you when it's up.
"Condi bomb" seems appropriate considering the info coming out of the streams and forums today is that Necromancer will be more than capable of inadvertently suiciding themselves with conditions if they don't pay attention.
I've basically made up my mind to switch my main to Rev. I'm tired of the bad balance design decisions Necromancer has to deal with.
appletoasty
Member
I think the idea is that necro either transfers (putrid mark, deathly swarm, plague signet, plague sending trait in corruption line that activates plague signet) or benefits (consume conditions) from those conditions in a corruption build.
But yes, it's also to balance the 33% increase in CD reduction as opposed to the usual 20%. I think they chose to experiment with necro in this regard as the condition transfer/consume skills should incorporate this tradeoff into an active play style.
Looks like the Wallet change is already in, though Map-specific currencies (Geodes, Bandit Crests, etc.) aren't in yet, probably after the update tomorrow.
Also, a big thank you to Lump for the Arkham Knight steam code, completely unexpected and incredibly awesome.
Now I'm going to go listen to James Horner soundtracks and sulk a little bit while I wait for it to download.
Also, a big thank you to Lump for the Arkham Knight steam code, completely unexpected and incredibly awesome.
Now I'm going to go listen to James Horner soundtracks and sulk a little bit while I wait for it to download.
Right, I assume the general idea is to try and engage in more of the condition control interplay within the core kit. The problem really is more about iteration than the general concept; the current functionality isn't really set up to deal with this in practice with how it was shown up to today by the streamers in their closed demo. It's all down to opportunity cost, where it all goes to shit pretty fast when you put things together.
The first core problem is that they moved Terror into the same tier as Master of Corruption, so all of these condition-heavy builds are first put into a really hard spot as Terror is the only way to make Fear deal damage (which only scales off condition damage, so these are the only builds that really make use of this trait). Right away there is a pretty significant cost here compared to other trait decisions.
Then the specifics about what MoC actually modifies. The big losers here are Consume Conditions, Corrosive Poison Cloud and Plague. All of the conditions added by MoC here are far too short to leverage as transferred conditions. The blind on Consume Conditions particularly sucks because it prevents the shortest CD transfer (edit - I think actually even Swarm will transfer Blind, though folks are saying Blind may no longer be prioritized on transfers); you get this condition by using your second shortest CD cleanse in the first place and wasting Putrid Mark or Plague Sending isn't ideal unless you can get more conditions on you before doing so (which you have almost no time to do). The Cripple on CPC isn't going to actually transfer onto anyone for more than a second. Plague is the biggest loser here though and in a condition-heavy setup will actually outright kill you if you try to run Plague for the entire duration. This is the part where the opportunity cost problem is the most ridiculous because you're paying for this additional self-damage for the right to use the ability more often. Except the stronger you actually lean towards conditions the more likely you are to not even be able to sustain Plague - and that's assuming you aren't even taking damage. With MoC in a condition heavy build Plague won't be the survival tool it currently is because even if you permablind someone for the duration you can outright kill yourself without their help.
The only ones that really work with this concept are the ones that were already working in this space prior to MoC - Blood is Power, Corrupt Boon, Epidemic. They have the duration to make a transfer worthwhile and don't push the skills into cross-skill reliance that they weren't already leaning on. The new additions just don't play into the concept well at all; while the CPC one isn't that severe (not that Necromancers needed any new mobility problems), the Consume and Plague ones are really going to be a problem. Heck, even without MoC Consume's status is pretty bad; Necro heals are outright terrible outside of Consume Conditions so taking any kind of lumps to that power is going to hit the class pretty hard. 10% more incoming damage (now additionally from condition damage, applied right after one of your primary condition wipes) is not going to be easy to work around in PvP.
What I would have liked to have seen from MoC is to have it increase the duration of self-conditions from all current Corruptions to increase the value of our transfers without adding as much new stress to an already hard to manage set of cooldowns. Consume probably should have been left un-typed along the lines of Shelter and Mending until they get the other Necro heals into a better place. The way it will probably shake out is Terror still gets priority over MoC and wind up just losing some ground on Consume and Plague. Plague Sending is a good addition but overall there isn't much to tally up, while in the same patch we're going to have Engineers and Mesmers just absolutely dominating this space and not fighting themselves in the process.
On the plus side, for conditions you'll at least be able to leverage the work they put out with Epidemic. That's something.
Edit - I feel kind of compelled to state that I'm conflating a few things here, but the main point is mostly about Corruption specialization changes and not "condition Necro is garbage". If you drawn down scope into specific things, like 1v1 PvP a Necro is going to smack down tons of condition builds. They'll still be great WvW builds. It just won't really have to do with Corruption line traits or changes, and PvE the class seems to have gained in an entirely different direction. In a weird way Necromancer's condition situation in PvP gained the most by how much more other classes gained in that area; the signets (including traits) and weakness application are really where our big gains are. We gained a pretty significant amount of sustain in that way so expect to see a lot of tanky Necromancers in PvP for a while, especially during the initial rush of condition builds. PvE is probably just going to continue to be daggers n' wells and/or shroud but with slightly more support and more might, which is the side of things I wanted to see a bigger shake up take place.
UltimateIke
Member
I thought we got 30 seconds to kill it, but it is actually only 25. We did it in 24, heh.
Here's my view: https://youtu.be/sDz-HafC0p4
Vigilant Walrus
Member
That was a great TB rant. I think he is spot on about a lot of this stuff.
At any rate we now know that HoT will be given away to future players when the next expansion is imminent. I don't think that will upset people now that they have that structure layered out.
Looks like some of the API updates have leaked a new BL weapon set ("Gallant") and a white version of the Wings back item. The weapon set looks pretty normal-looking (in a good way) so I may have to buy some.
It really shouldn't have upset people to begin with, giving away previous editions of the game is a great way to make it easy for new players (vital to the long-term health of the game) to start. The "veterans get nothing / new players get a free game!" argument was the weakest (and most childlike) of the bunch.
It really shouldn't have upset people to begin with, giving away previous editions of the game is a great way to make it easy for new players (vital to the long-term health of the game) to start. The "veterans get nothing / new players get a free game!" argument was the weakest (and most childlike) of the bunch.
Someone put a wallet in his mouth so he doesn't swallow his tongue, I'll go call an ambulance.
srsly, tranzlatte plz
He's freaking out over the datamined gemstore stuff. New black lion weapons and white wing backpack
Vigilant Walrus
Member
Totally agreed!
Bl4ckSunsh1n3
Member
I like the amendment to the policy they made. Now, mathematically, everything is logical. I'll be preordering it today most likely, that has no bearing on the announcement though. It's Tuesday and I had planned on purchasing today anyways.
I do find it odd now that some people are upset that they listened to the community. Can't please everyone all the time I guess.
I do find it odd now that some people are upset that they listened to the community. Can't please everyone all the time I guess.
In my case at least I'm not disappointed that they listened to the community, I'm disappointed that the community caused such an uproar over absolutely nothing. If you're upset at the price then that's fine, and I'd never advocate anyone preorder something they aren't 100% invested and confident in. But don't complain that new players somehow receive some special boon by not having to first purchase the base game. It also clouded discussion of all the actual news that came out at the same time which would have been far more interesting.
Bl4ckSunsh1n3
Member
I don't think it was absolutely nothing but, I'm not going to argue about it. It's moot now.
My concern is that every time the community (and by "community" I mean "official forums and Reddit", I strongly believe the average player doesn't regularly visit either of those) throws a hissy-fit and ArenaNet listens and changes something, the community sees that their behavior pays off and and is more likely to throw tantrums in the future.
Having said that, this is one instance where I feel the community was actually right in some ways, but because their methods and behavior (mass down-voting all communication, harassing developers, threatening litigation, spamming the same messages regularly and outside the subreddit, etc.) are so distasteful that I don't want to agree with them.
Yep, all of this here. I agree that a character slot should have been included since they're adding a new class and that the $50 price tag is higher than most people would like (but still comparable to the competition). I even can understand the price especially being an issue to people who haven't played the game yet / much and don't understand that ArenaNet always undersells what they're working on and that you're buying more than the expansion but years worth of additional content.
The whole "new players get the game free, why don't I get anything?!" people can go pound sand though; including the core game is much better for everyone in the long run except the developers, who would have pocketed the profits from selling the core game and expansion separately. I hated having to convince friends to buy WoW and then having to sell them on buying the core game + expansions. One box makes more sense.
Re:Master of Corruptions; the opportunity cost there is purposeful. The trait competes with Terror in the same way it competes with Path of Corruption. Terror is for CC Condi Burst, Path of Corruption is for Death Shroud-centric Condi builds, and Master of Corruption is for more defensive Condi builds that also get the option of making up for the loss of free power through Corrupt Boon and Epidemic. Having a 20 second complete condition cleanse and massive heal is powerful, no matter the minor drawback. And until I'm convinced otherwise I can't fully get behind the uproar over it.
What is your evidence that the community was listened to at all? How do you know they weren't listening to the pre-order revenue that was missing from their balance sheets over the weekend?
But they were told to go pound sand. This argument was directly refuted by Anet in their response- this will be the policy for all expansions going forward.
Dismissing an argument by pointing to the shiniest of pitchforks on reddit is an example of "shooting the messenger."
Reddit is a hivemind mob discussion that you've repeatedly (and rightly) dismissed as an "angry vocal minority." We apportion them way too much influence. I know the devs post there, but I think it's because we all go there to read the GW2 news.
Phrases in their Community Address such as "we also recognize that there is some frustration and confusion," "amendments made to the FAQ following the announcement were a good-faith attempt to clarify this misinterpretation," etc. That entire article is meant to be placative, I don't think there's too many other ways to read it.
That's exactly my point, because even as ArenaNet addressed the more legitimate gripes (no character slot, changes to the FAQ, etc.) they flat out told the "I want a shiny if the new players get one!!!1" crowd (the most unreasonable of the bunch) that this is how they're doing things and that's final. I didn't say they caved to the community's demands completely, did I?
Eh? I just said in the passage you're quoting "I feel the community was actually right." I'm not shooting the messenger, I'm expressing annoyance that the messenger's method of delivery is to drive through the neighborhood at 3am, shouting obscenities and growling into a loudspeaker while setting off fireworks during a laser light show.
It's just the nature of the beast, not just Reddit but the internet in general. The place where news travels fastest is the place where any voice can share it unfiltered, but that also means everything slips through. It's the new watering hole, everyone congregates there, but sometimes you have to deal with globs of hippo shit and the occasional crocodile.
Edit: Yeah, I'm editing the political crap out, there's a danger it will veer wildly off-topic and we really don't need that in here. Since you've edited your posts, I'll go ahead and edit mine out as well.
I think we just sort of default to Reddit because nobody wants to wade into the horror show that is the Official Forums. But you're right, this isn't the first time we've come to the conclusion that importing Reddit drama is generally just a bad idea, even if in this particular case they're making enough noise to seemingly influence the developers.
Won't matter in a few hours anyway, right?
Right. Everyone gets a shiny today.
I think we just sort of default to Reddit because nobody wants to wade into the horror show that is the Official Forums. But you're right, this isn't the first time we've come to the conclusion that importing Reddit drama is generally just a bad idea, even if in this particular case they're making enough noise to seemingly influence the developers.
Won't matter in a few hours anyway, right?
Right. Everyone gets a shiny today.
Kos Luftar
Member
You two argue so often, sometimes I wonder who Retro is actually married to.
I'm hoping for a super late update since I'm at work late and going furniture shopping.
I'm hoping for a super late update since I'm at work late and going furniture shopping.
I wouldn't even call it arguing, at least I've never considered it that way. I've said before that I have a lot of respect for Moondrop, so even if we disagree on things I never assume it's heated or personal, just a clash between two different points of view. My problem is that I usually just throw my thoughts out there assuming everyone will get the gist of it when I should really be more clear. Something to work on.
Interestingly enough, Hythloday and I don't fight that often.
I have a feeling it's going to be similar to the Star of Gratitude, with a big of a quest chain to create it. Hopefully it's not as complicated as Mawdrey was; I like that sort of thing, but I also would like my bank tabs back ASAP.
I wonder if the change to LA will spill out into the other zones. I could see the entrance from Gendarran Fields changing, maybe a walled entryway in Bloodtide Coast. They could open up the old northern exit of the city that leads into the snowy sections of Gendarran and create an actual path into Lornar's Pass too (instead of just the Asura Gate they have now).
It's been Tuesday forever now :/ Where's the stuff?
Someone actually graphed all of the times updates went live. The best chance isn't for another 4 hours or so.
Wow, that's hilarious
Well, that's enoguh time for dailies and perhaps even a few minutes of letting me be the batman.- Status
Similar threads
- Locked