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[Trey]

I think the point is that build diversity means more than the raw combinatorial possibilities, moondrop. So in the end, there are more viable options than before. That was always anet's main design discipline, and they're further iterating toward that end.

It's similar to how there are 50 MvC2 characters, but really there's only 4.

 

[Levyne]

Destroying projectiles with a projectile is some Robin Hood / Legolas level shit. I wonder how tricky that will be.

 

[Wallach]

So when Rangers asked for a way to permanently stow the pet I don't really think that is what they had in mind. I predict salt.

That is a wack name though.

Let's get on to the Necromancer already. Chop chop.

 

[Moondrop]

I think the point is that build diversity means more than the raw combinatorial possibilities, moondrop. So in the end, there are more viable options than before.

I'm just baffled how people make these empty proclamations as if they're fact. Who determines what's viable? New builds that arise will be due to the new elite specializations or entirely new traits. I have yet to encounter a single speculative example of how the new reduced option trait nodes will provide more "viable" options (because of course it will do the opposite).

 

[Stuart444]

Currently two traits that virtually ever elementalist takes, Bolt to the Heart and Elemental Attunement, are not grandmasters. Both were originally introduced as adept traits, and the developers are now moving them to be grandmaster traits after the trait patch.

I quickly looked up my traits and I use the first one but not Elemental Attunement. Think I'll try it out, took 2 points from earth which had stone splitter and put it into Arcane (Elemental Attunement is a Master trait, was it originally an adept then? I forget honestly) to try it out.

When is this trait patch anyway?

 

[Trey]

I'm just baffled how people make these empty proclamations as if they're fact. Who determines what's viable? New builds that arise will be due to the new elite specializations or entirely new traits. I have yet to encounter a single speculative example of how the new reduced option trait nodes will provide more "viable" options (because of course it will do the opposite).

Ideally the developers produce plenty of options with well defined parameters for the player base to use. They have two and a half years of data to further contextualize how people play their game, so one would hope their skill and trait design has improved accordingly.

And I made no proclamations, merely spoke to how this so called "less is more" design philosophy is fundamental to anet's core principles.

 

[Shanlei91]

I'm just baffled how people make these empty proclamations as if they're fact. Who determines what's viable? New builds that arise will be due to the new elite specializations or entirely new traits. I have yet to encounter a single speculative example of how the new reduced option trait nodes will provide more "viable" options (because of course it will do the opposite).

Ya, the new system forcing 3 lines on players is restricting. They should have only removed stats from the traits - that part is what I'm most excited for.

 

[Levyne]

I quickly looked up my traits and I use the first one but not Elemental Attunement. Think I'll try it out, took 2 points from earth which had stone splitter and put it into Arcane (Elemental Attunement is a Master trait, was it originally an adept then? I forget honestly) to try it out.

When is this trait patch anyway?

No one knows..Before HoT, which could be anywhere from August to December.

 

[Stuart444]

No one knows..Before HoT, which could be anywhere from August to December.

Hmm, okay then. Plenty of time not to worry about it then lol.

 

[Levyne]

Hmm, okay then. Plenty of time not to worry about it then lol.

Well. It could be June or July. It does feel like we're overdue for a feature pack.


I wonder how purposefully they avoided "Dragoon". Maybe not a perfect fit for a bow wielding heavy but less clumsy than DragonHunter.

 

[Stuart444]

Well. It could be June or July. It does feel like we're overdue for a feature pack.

I'd prefer it to be later in the year personally so I can check it out. Mid June+ I'll be busy with FFXIV Heavensward.

But if it happens in June, I'll just catch up again and see how the changes are whenever I get time to play GW2.

Also I'll hate any class that uses the term Dragoon without giving me a damned Lancer/Polearm weapon to use.

 

[Moondrop]

And I made no proclamations, merely spoke to how this so called "less is more" design philosophy is fundamental to anet's core principles.

I don't recall "less is more" as one of Anet's design principles. In fact I might argue that historically GW2 has trended in the other direction and is only snapping back in the last year or so. They've removed their original "golden rules" blog post but I found this summary:

- Make the World come Alive
- Cooperation is Key
- Play the Game not the UI
- Take Risks
- Do it Well or Don’t Do It At All
- Respect the Player

And we all remember some talk of horizontal rather than vertical progression.

I'm sorry for making it seem like I'm having a go at you personally; that's not my intention. You are merely illustrating my point that Anet has announced a dramatic mathematical reduction in build options, but no one seems to mind because they possess a belief that Anet will solve everything through "better balance" and "more meaningful and viable options." And I reject that language as vague and poorly defined.

This seems like a good time to reiterate that I love GW2, and I never expected it to hold true to its pre-release conception. Such are the inherent consequences of its birth into reality. My concern is that some of the worrying design trends that have arisen post-release appear to still be present when your read between the lines of these HoT previews.

I wonder how purposefully they avoided "Dragoon".

What a missed opportunity.

 

[Spyware]

So uhm... mostly seeing people going "omg they are joking right?" and "wtf what?" about the Dragonhunter. There seems to be mostly a negative response to it all on Tumblr. what is it people hate/dislike about it? Feels like I'm missing something.

 

[Quenk]

So uhm... mostly seeing people going "omg they are joking right?" and "wtf what?" about the Dragonhunter. There seems to be mostly a negative response to it all on Tumblr. what is it people hate/dislike about it? Feels like I'm missing something.

I think people just aren't a fan of supporty stuff.

 

[Wanderer5]

Heh, looks interesting despite the pretty bleh name.XD

 

[Trey]

I'm sorry for making it seem like I'm having a go at you personally; that's not my intention. You are merely illustrating my point that Anet has announced a dramatic mathematical reduction in build options, but no one seems to mind because they possess a belief that Anet will solve everything through "better balance" and "more meaningful and viable options." And I reject that language as vague and poorly defined.

It was their bedrock rationalization for going with the first five skills being tied to weapons. They specifically cited GW1 and its many skills but few "viable" builds as their reasoning for trimming down the GW2's number of skills to focus on making more powerful and varied results. It was in the early combat blog post, I believe. It's how I always understood them to operate, at least concerning GW2. whether they ever succeeded in producing more viable options is subject to much debate.

What we know about HoT is that they're introducing more elements to the combat (weapons being spread out more across professions, new mechanics, new conditions) while at the same time streamlining the trait system, conceivably by rolling currently disparate effects into larger traits. To my mind, it's a continuation of the thinking that led to the rune change last year. I suppose we'll see how it goes, but I'm not surprised by these occurrences, to say nothing on whether I'm disappointed by them or not.

edit: the plantosaurs look cool.

 

[Anno]

They certainly could have led with a better video. Pretty much any video would have been better, in fact. Including no video at all.

 

[Spyware]

I think people just aren't a fan of supporty stuff.

Ah, right, could be that. My fav character to actually play is my very supporty staff/hammer healing guardian. She basically can't die So I'm all for supporty stuff!

 

[Moondrop]

Guardians + Traps + Runes of the Trapper (super speed + stealth) = Oh yes. Hopefully I can create a counter-bearbow WvW roaming build. I know it says support, but if it's stuff like ranged immobilizes and a vigor field then it will go just fine with DPS gear.

To my mind, it's a continuation of the thinking that led to the rune change last year.

I agree 100%. But to my mind, the rune change unnecessarily reduced build diversity while simultaneously handing players a "it's ok, we've buffed the full set" carrot. That patch eradicated all extreme boon duration builds, for example. At this point reduction in options is practically a design trend. Though I guess elite specializations are going the other way, it's all rather forced. Hopefully it's well-executed.

 

[SourBear]

So when Rangers asked for a way to permanently stow the pet I don't really think that is what they had in mind. I predict salt.

That is a wack name though.

Let's get on to the Necromancer already. Chop chop.

"The Necromancer will get a new way to spend life force."

They have just shown with Guardian elite spec they aren't afraid of replacing the F abilities.

Death shroud replaced??

 

[Taffer]

Dragons don't trigger traps. Dragonhunter specialises in traps.

 

[Zeroth]

So uhm... mostly seeing people going "omg they are joking right?" and "wtf what?" about the Dragonhunter. There seems to be mostly a negative response to it all on Tumblr. what is it people hate/dislike about it? Feels like I'm missing something.

Several factors here:

* name is pretty generic and doesnt seem to match with Guardian

* focus on traps, which are considered extremely lackluster skills (focus on damage over time and placement when the dungeon meta is aimed at speed)

* changes to class seem lackluster given what chronomancer does to mesmer

Support is not much of a problem since chronomancer is support and seems to do well, its just a matter of what kind of support.

Personally, the idea of traps seem like a missed opportunity for deeper stuff to me, but I'll wait and see. If the dragonhunter line offers good offensive options it might be meta.

 

[Thorgal]

congratulations , your guardian has evolved into a Quincy .

Spoiler

I like it .

 

[Levyne]

get that animu shit out of here


I should run all traps in a dungeon just for the hell of it someday. traps and axe-dagger. That'll show dnt

 

[Thorgal]

you would think traps work great with the Stacking mentality most players have in dungeon .

 

[Levyne]

Mostly condition focused and you'd get poison and ice fields that you wouldn't want. If you want to chill the enemies you could just use frost spirit active instead and no field to worry about. Flame trap fire field could be useful but you'd want it up before the enemy arrives. Slotting a torch and swapping it out would be better if you really don't have any better fire option.

 

[Zeroth]

you would think traps work great with the Stacking mentality most players have in dungeon .

Traps rely on DoT, which is the opposite of the meta for now. Guardian traps would need to be incredible to be useable (maybe a trap that pulses blinds), though I dont mind it since guardians have pretty solid utility skills at it is.

 

[Stuart444]

That's one reason I wouldn't want to run with randoms if I can avoid it. I'm not interested in speed running shit in GW2. I prefer to take it slow and enjoy myself.

I enjoy support/healing type of stuff in this game as well. fun stuff.

 

[Kos Luftar]

Aren't these DH "traps" more similar to Necro wells than Ranger traps, since you can place them from a distance?

 

[nataku]

That name is such an odd choice.

Everyone's a dragon hunter in this game.

It's literally what the game is about.

 

[shysaursoft]

Looks like Guardian might be fun to play in that spec, actually. Could get me to brush him off and actually play the class.

So uhm... mostly seeing people going "omg they are joking right?" and "wtf what?" about the Dragonhunter. There seems to be mostly a negative response to it all on Tumblr. what is it people hate/dislike about it? Feels like I'm missing something.

There's no need to get hung up on what people on the internet say/think about the class, or any of the upcoming changes. Until HotS is actually live, it's all just nerdwank (and I mean that in a nice way, I got nothing against theoryfighters).

You'll enjoy the game 1000x times more, the less time you spend reading other people's opinions about it on the internet. #truefact.

 

[Levyne]

Aren't these DH "traps" more similar to Necro wells than Ranger traps, since you can place them from a distance?

You can actually trait to ground target throw them.

 

[Spyware]

Several factors here:

Pfff, screw "meta"

I'm ready!

You'll enjoy the game 1000x times more, the less time you spend reading other people's opinions about it on the internet. #truefact.

Oh I know! I always immediately unfollow anyone on Tumblr who is "negative". I'm there to look at pretty screenshots, nothing else. But it was pretty impossible to not see the general response and I just didn't get why people were so against the DH. I like it, I look forward to it and it doesn't matter what other people think at all I just wanted to know why they might think that way.

 

[Thorgal]

Mostly condition focused and you'd get poison and ice fields that you wouldn't want. If you want to chill the enemies you could just use frost spirit active instead and no field to worry about. Flame trap fire field could be useful but you'd want it up before the enemy arrives. Slotting a torch and swapping it out would be better if you really don't have any better fire option.

Traps rely on DoT, which is the opposite of the meta for now. Guardian traps would need to be incredible to be useable (maybe a trap that pulses blinds), though I dont mind it since guardians have pretty solid utility skills at it is.

ah i see , still found it very useful when running dungeon with pugs on my Condi ranger

That name is such an odd choice.

Everyone's a dragon hunter in this game.

It's literally what the game is about.

You know Elie ,we are truly all Dragonhunter's.

edit : dammit, Kannik is starting to rub off on me .

 

[human onion]

Not sure about traps, but I like the virtue changes, so we'll see how it goes.

 

[Trey]

That name is such an odd choice.

Everyone's a dragon hunter in this game.

It's literally what the game is about.

Yeah, but these guys are a dragon hunter's dragon hunter.

 

[shysaursoft]

I just wanted to know why they might think that way.

Perhaps 1% of them see actual gameplay related issues with it, and how it ties into the bigger picture and might upset the balance of things, or something.

The other 99%, just don't personally like it, and are incapable of understanding that just because they don't personally like it, doesn't mean it is objectively bad.

The internet in a nutshell.

It's hard to find that 1% (Moondrop is the only person who's ranting about numbers I pay attention to, even though I'm Performer, not Technician), but I also try to keep in mind that numbers on a spreadsheet don't equal fun. What might sound good on paper, when the little values all line up, doesn't always make a class fun. You can't balance a game on a spreadsheet, as the saying goes.

Sometimes you have to lessen build diversity, simplify things, to promote people *using* more builds, globally, instead of just following whatever is rated highest on a site. It's not unlike in art, when you limit your painting's colours with a gamut map - it's less colours, but each one stands out more.

 

[Morokh]

The name just weirds everyone out because even if they aren't Paladins, everyone sees them as Paladins.

 

[Anno]

Adding a leap to F2 makes me very happy. Actually all of the virtue changes sound fun. Skill shots and positioning seem to be a focus for these first two specs, hope that continues.

 

[Moondrop]

I'm pretty sure that intro video is an homage to Monster Hunter.

I'm also rather pleased I deleted my Asura techno-guardian and can now create a fresh Norn outdoorsy stealth hunter. Guardian hype, this feels so strange.

 

[Stuart444]

Quick question, if you delete a character and then remake them and want to give them the exact same name, is the name still considered taken even though you deleted the character or can you use the same name like that?

 

[shysaursoft]

Quick question, if you delete a character and then remake them and want to give them the exact same name, is the name still considered taken even though you deleted the character or can you use the same name like that?

When you delete a character, their name is locked to your account for a while, so you can remake with the same name without fear of someone else taking it, I believe.

 

[Trey]

Quick question, if you delete a character and then remake them and want to give them the exact same name, is the name still considered taken even though you deleted the character or can you use the same name like that?

when you delete a character, the name is reserved to your account for 24 hours.

 

[Proven]

So... quick thoughts I guess.

Guardians are getting 3 new virtues, 5 new weapon skills, and 4-6 new traps (including heal, utility, and possibly elite). Assuming that the virtue passives stay the same (probably won't, but still) then that's 12-14 new active abilities for the Guardian when he specs into Dragon Hunter.

As someone mentioned, the specializations thus seem focused on more active play. This also by default makes them harder to play from a mechanical/twitch point of view, which makes sense when you consider that you only gain access to them at max level. Still, it also makes it likely that players are going to flock to them in even greater numbers than I first thought. I was under the assumption that we'd have anywhere of a 50/50 to a 70/30 split of elite specializations vs. regular professions while running around in the Maguuma Jungle, but not it's more likely to be a 90/10 split. PvP will definitely end up in a 70/30 split for now, if you consider the current meta. Nothing has been shown thus far that will definitely change the meta, but there will definitely be experimentation with things like the Chronomancer.

The past few weeks I've been brainstorming a Carrion Guardian spec using the core specializations, and the release of the Dragon Hunter... doesn't throw a wrench into my plans. What's shown so far would be fun but doesn't necessarily fit with the theme I've set in mind, and there are a lot of traits I want to take to make it work that I don't want to swap for the Dragon Hunter spec. This is ultimately a good thing, which makes me sad for Chronomancer as there's a good chance everyone will be trying to shoehorn that spec into every current build.

Other skill types that will likely be used for the next six elite specs:
Shouts (known)
Meditations
Concecrations
Physical
Stances
Elixers
Gadgets
Survival
Deceptions
Tricks
Venoms
Arcane
Conjures
Glyphs
Manipulations
Mantras
Corruptions

That's... a lot more than I thought there would be. It can likely be narrowed down with next week's picture.

And now I've gotta go.

 

[Stuart444]

When you delete a character, their name is locked to your account for a while, so you can remake with the same name without fear of someone else taking it, I believe.

when you delete a character, the name is reserved to your account for 24 hours.

Thanks guys, I forgot if that was the case so I'm glad it is.

 

[Ashodin]

Currently two traits that virtually ever elementalist takes, Bolt to the Heart and Elemental Attunement, are not grandmasters. Both were originally introduced as adept traits, and the developers are now moving them to be grandmaster traits after the trait patch.

So are players who recognized that these traits are better than the current grandmasters stupid? Perhaps there is value to players in not putting all build decisions in the hand of the developers, but allowing some things to develop organically?

You're projecting. Speaking purely based on the concept of traits and the ideal of basing your build around grandmasters that fundamentally change your play style, they've failed on their part to provide a meaningful reason to always take them if players find weaker traits to be better. This is fixing that failure.

Several factors here:

* name is pretty generic and doesnt seem to match with Guardian

* focus on traps, which are considered extremely lackluster skills (focus on damage over time and placement when the dungeon meta is aimed at speed)

* changes to class seem lackluster given what chronomancer does to mesmer

Support is not much of a problem since chronomancer is support and seems to do well, its just a matter of what kind of support.

Personally, the idea of traps seem like a missed opportunity for deeper stuff to me, but I'll wait and see. If the dragonhunter line offers good offensive options it might be meta.

#1: I'll say the name is actually pretty killer, and fits the change in design of the profession's playstyle. This is arena net's chance to say "guardians aren't paladins".

#2: Completely irrelevant. Entirely based on the assumption that new content will be mobs that work the same way dungeon content does.

#3: I actually find the only skill unique to the Chronomancer at this point is Continuum Shift. And not to mention Guardians using this can now range effectively. Huge deal for us.

#4: Again, concern with "meta" should be held in reserve until all changes are known.

 

[Moondrop]

The past few weeks I've been brainstorming a Carrion Guardian spec using the core specializations, and the release of the Dragon Hunter... doesn't throw a wrench into my plans. What's shown so far would be fun but doesn't necessarily fit with the theme I've set in mind, and there are a lot of traits I want to take to make it work that I don't want to swap for the Dragon Hunter spec.

Assuming there's a reasonable condi component, I can see Radiance being an important complimentary trait line. Condi-based retal would be nice. Carrion is an interesting idea, but I'm also interested in Celestial and Sinister. Guess we'll know more tomorrow.

Other skill types that will likely be used for the next six elite specs:
Shouts (known)
Meditations
Concecrations
Physical
Stances
Elixers
Gadgets
Survival
Deceptions
Tricks
Venoms
Arcane
Conjures
Glyphs
Manipulations
Mantras
Corruptions

I worked up a whole post on such a list last week but deleted it in my frustration of trying to complete the equation of (current profession) + (skill type from another profession) = (elite specialization). But now that we've seen dragonhunter, that equation seems to be accurate and the rumors of banshee sound like inside info. So let's see where we stand with the equations; perhaps we can complete them together.

Ranger + ??? = Druid
Mesmer + Wells = Chronomancer
Guardian + Traps = Dragonhunter
Necromancer + Shouts = Banshee (rumored)
Engineer + ??? = ???
Elementalist + ??? = ???
Thief + ??? = ???
Warrior + ??? = ???

I'll put forth three guesses. The first is Elementalist + Venoms, and the venoms will be elemental themed, possibly having interactions with attunements. The second is that thief or warrior will be getting some type of summon/conjure/pet/spirit/turret with their elite specialization. And perhaps Rangers + Elixirs = Druid?

You're projecting.

I'm projecting what onto what?

So they've acknowledged a new design philosophy of making grandmaster traits truly necessary. I have no problem with that in principle. But I can't help but point out the irony that they're moving multiple traits to become grandmasters based on how useful players proved them to be, and yet we should ignore the reduction in build diversity because Anet has balance under control?

 

[Mxrz]

My entirely random and entirely srs guess about traps was right, woo. While I have never been keen on getting a longbow, traps are just different enough to make me interested. This is the sort of crazy stuff I want. Shake things up. Getting away from the stale ass dungeon meta is a good thing in every way. Finding ways to bring pvp builds into pve would be nice too.

Just give me an offhand mace next.

 

[Ashodin]

Assuming there's a reasonable condi component, I can see Radiance being an important complimentary trait line. Condi-based retal would be nice. Carrion is an interesting idea, but I'm also interested in Celestial and Sinister. Guess we'll know more tomorrow.


I worked up a whole post on such a list last week but deleted it in my frustration of trying to complete the equation of (current profession) + (skill type from another profession) = (elite specialization). But now that we've seen dragonhunter, that equation seems to be accurate and the rumors of banshee sound like inside info. So let's see where we stand with the equations; perhaps we can complete them together.

Ranger + ??? = Druid
Mesmer + Wells = Chronomancer
Guardian + Traps = Dragonhunter
Necromancer + Shouts = Banshee (rumored)
Engineer + ??? = ???
Elementalist + ??? = ???
Thief + ??? = ???
Warrior + ??? = ???

I'll put forth three guesses. The first is Elementalist + Venoms, and the venoms will be elemental themed, possibly having interactions with attunements. The second is that thief or warrior will be getting some type of summon/conjure/pet/spirit/turret with their elite specialization. And perhaps Rangers + Elixirs = Druid?


I'm projecting what onto what?

So they've acknowledged a new design philosophy of making grandmaster traits truly necessary. I have no problem with that in principle. But I can't help but point out the irony that they're moving multiple traits to become grandmasters based on how useful players proved them to be, and yet we should ignore the reduction in build diversity because Anet has balance under control?

That I suggested players are dumb, when I'm calling the idea of traits that are supposed to be weaker are taken instead of traits that are supposed to be flat out better. They weren't. And aren't they combining those traits into one super grandmaster? Example, spirit weapons. It allows builds to take multiple things, as opposed to sacrificing traits that would help or add to the build in general.

I too am excited and thought your exact thing about profession + other profession mechanic + new weapon = specialization!

 

[Levyne]

I hope Druid is next week. Imagine it has to be one of the medium armors, right.