-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo 3 Multiplayer Official Thread
- Thread starter Stinkles
- Start date
the melee system punishes those who have good timing to their melees
I usually try to melee someone as soon as I know a melee will kill them- aka in halo2 i would always end fights early with an early melee- however, when you're fighting someone who perhaps doesn't know how soon to melee, they will keep shooting probably ~2-3 rounds until they react to you meleeing/until they decide its time to melee, therein winning the fight because they have more health and only melee'd a split second after you.
I usually try to melee someone as soon as I know a melee will kill them- aka in halo2 i would always end fights early with an early melee- however, when you're fighting someone who perhaps doesn't know how soon to melee, they will keep shooting probably ~2-3 rounds until they react to you meleeing/until they decide its time to melee, therein winning the fight because they have more health and only melee'd a split second after you.
Mr Vociferous
Member
Not true. I may know my opponent has more health than me when I hit him, I just know he doesn't have enough health to survive my hit which comes first - unless, of course, he hits me within that 'gigantically massive window of time' Bungie's referring to as 'the same time.' Halo 2's melee system was terribly unpredictable because it rested on a hurting netcode and there was a lot of value on being the player host because of its network advantages and the measures, like lunging, which were done to 'fix' it. Halo 3's melee system, even with lunging, is completely predictable, because the quickest player doesn't win - just the one with the most health. In my opinion, it's a pretty flawed design. Either the window needs to be dramatically shortened or a patch that lets us set up dedicated, non-player host lobbies on strong connections. I prefer the unlikely latter option.chapel said:
A broken golden tripod - somehow it managed to fall through the cracks of developmental multiplayer testing, probably because most of that is being done on a local network and not across the internet.
Never-the-less, I actually came here this morning to applaud whoever developed that Narrows jousting game. Played it last night and it was awesome/dumb fun. Probably the most fun I've had in multiplayer yet.
ToyMachine228
Member
You guys seen that video where the guy shoots fusion cores which sends a traffic cone on The Pit spiraling back at him and killing him?:lol :lol Pretty hilarious. I want to find the file share it's in so I can DL it.
Chinner said:
I've actually become really disappointed with forge. It seems to me, and others I've heard from, that's it's just limiting enough to not be able to do what you're trying to do. I did have fun messing around with it the first time though, raining tanks down on my friends.
t4ng0 said:
yup ive lost just about every ar to melee battle because i always get the first hit with the use of boxer.
the system is just flawed cause with H2 i hardly if ever lost a melee battle using boxer.
btw, this kid has some done some good stuff with forge. he took out alot of the new weapons which is sorta bad, but the way he organized the maps, spwns, spwn timers, weapons, powerups is really good. the pit is particularly well done.
http://www.bungie.net/stats/Halo3/FileShare.aspx?gamertag=Killa KC
Well I was making the assumption that you're moving in for the melee knowing that he has low enough health you could kill him with one melee, but outside of that vague knowledge you don't know the particular value in comparison to yours. Now there are other instances where this isn't the case because you had an uncontested encounter and maybe your shields were down from a previous one, and the guy happens to respond to your melee with one but somehow has more health. But see even when I try to describe that, the fact is you don't know exactly how much health someone has at any moment, except when their shields break, and even at that point both your shields could be broken and you could lose.
Why would you put yourself in to a position like that? If you don't have any idea who has the most health - but you know for sure that you can be taken out with a melee blow - why risk that in hopes that your "superior reflexes" allow you to press melee a fraction of a second before he does? You are purposely charging in to give yourself 50-50 odds that the other guy will kill you because he hit melee first.
I don't see how having a 50-50 chance (and much much worse when host is taken in to consideration) is somehow better than the system that is currently in place. Being sure that you have more health seems a lot easier to figure out than being sure that your reflexes are better than somebody elses.
I don't see how having a 50-50 chance (and much much worse when host is taken in to consideration) is somehow better than the system that is currently in place. Being sure that you have more health seems a lot easier to figure out than being sure that your reflexes are better than somebody elses.
So, I made a map with Forge today. I'm not creative, and it's nothing special, but I wanted to see how Narrows would play with some weapon changes.
I don't like the Rocket Launcher or how it plays on Narrows, so I replaced it with the Spartan Laser, for a few reasons: I can't imagine how good it would feel to laser someone out of the air from a man-cannon, and the SL can be used longer, but is less of an attacking weapon than the RL. If you're smart, you won't run into enemy territory with the SL, but you would with the RL. I like the idea of grabbing a power weapon, then retreating with it and protecting it and attempting to stay a safe distance away from people, as though it was a flag in an objective game.
Just for the heck of it, I replaced the Shotty with the Gravity Hammer. I thought it would be more fun to swing the hammer and send someone flying off the map than to just shoot someone with the shotty.
Just for fun, I gave each team a mongoose. Useless? Probably. But I thought it would be cool to have, since I good driver might be able to use the mancannon and catch the other team off-guard and get a few splatters. To keep suicidal mongoose-idiots in check, I gave each team a Plasma Pistol near the mancannon.
I made a few other minor changes, switching some spawns, adjusting some respawn timers, changing some minor weapons, changing some Frag Grenades to Plasma Grenades, and flipping the Spikers and SMGs on one side of the map.
It's my first attempt, so it's likely shit, but I just wanted to give it a shot. I already played with a friend, and it was interesting, and I made some changes.
You can download "Narrowed" from my file share. I'd be happy to play in a bit, and get some feedback. Again, nothing insane and mind-blowing, just a re-imagination of the weapons and spawns.
I don't like the Rocket Launcher or how it plays on Narrows, so I replaced it with the Spartan Laser, for a few reasons: I can't imagine how good it would feel to laser someone out of the air from a man-cannon, and the SL can be used longer, but is less of an attacking weapon than the RL. If you're smart, you won't run into enemy territory with the SL, but you would with the RL. I like the idea of grabbing a power weapon, then retreating with it and protecting it and attempting to stay a safe distance away from people, as though it was a flag in an objective game.
Just for the heck of it, I replaced the Shotty with the Gravity Hammer. I thought it would be more fun to swing the hammer and send someone flying off the map than to just shoot someone with the shotty.
Just for fun, I gave each team a mongoose. Useless? Probably. But I thought it would be cool to have, since I good driver might be able to use the mancannon and catch the other team off-guard and get a few splatters. To keep suicidal mongoose-idiots in check, I gave each team a Plasma Pistol near the mancannon.
I made a few other minor changes, switching some spawns, adjusting some respawn timers, changing some minor weapons, changing some Frag Grenades to Plasma Grenades, and flipping the Spikers and SMGs on one side of the map.
It's my first attempt, so it's likely shit, but I just wanted to give it a shot. I already played with a friend, and it was interesting, and I made some changes.
You can download "Narrowed" from my file share. I'd be happy to play in a bit, and get some feedback. Again, nothing insane and mind-blowing, just a re-imagination of the weapons and spawns.
BuzzJive said:
Not necessarily. Sometimes, they might have charged you. Or you might have an opportunity to catch someone off guard and close in. Or maybe you just end up in close range combat through dozens of other circumstantial events. Bungie doesn't consider it one of the most important parts of Halo's gameplay for no reason. It's a vital component of the combat.
And it's not about who hits the button first. If you are too early, you won't do enough damage to kill your opponent, too late and you'll be dead. Or, at least, you should be.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
Chinner said:
It's starting to feel like that for me. I've been working on a map for about 3 days now which is Halo 2 Zanzibar recreated on Last Resort. If you played alot of Halo 2 on Zanzibar, you will feel right at home.
Still not done yet, though.
I think there is a general consensus between moderately to very good players, and that is that the way melee is now is broken. I am not saying anyone here sucks at Halo, I am not the greatest but I do feel I have moderate skill and at times can be very good. I have played enough Halo:CE/Halo 2 and now Halo 3 to know that the melee just doesn't work as advertised.
http://forum.teamxbox.com/showthread.php?t=451043 << That should help you open your nat enough to play with your friends.Fatalah said:
Yeah, except it's hard for me to retool it without concrete game impetus. My melee strategy, which is primarily based on tons of Halo 1 play, is incredibly refined from the timing angle, because what goes into meleeing in Halo 1 is A) have I shot him enough to kill him with a melee and B) I'd better melee him before he melees me. The binary assessment of someone's health is reasonable, and after a little playtime you can make this distinction pretty accurately. The same goes for the timing - invest some time in the game and you learn how long it takes and how to recognize when someone else is about to beat you to the punch. These are pretty quantifiable things, and the health estimation is manageable because you need only compare how much you've hurt someone to a known constant necessary to bring them into melee-is-lethal range.t4ng0 said:
In Halo 3, the health estimation is more complicated. You have the first threshhold, which is more or less the same - is he killable by melee yet - but also another separate consideration that is much harder to perform on the fly - comparing how hurt he is to how hurt you are. These numbers are often quite close, making it extremely difficult in quick, intense encounters to make an accurate assessment. And there's little feedback to assist you in your split-second comparison of two extremely close unknowable numbers, which makes it hard to evolve your strategy. You can't ever tell how far off you were, so it's hard to learn and adapt.
Because there's no natural way to "learn" the new system, about the best I've managed to come up with is to simply delay - beyond all common sense, because surely whoever inflicts the melee damage past the lethal threshold first should win - my strike by a small amount of time. This again removes the act of meleeing from a direct game stimulation, further increasing the feeling of arbitrariness. It's frustrating.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
urk said:Just swap in the rockets up top and call it a day.
:lol
I actually thought about that for a while, but I wanted to get more creative.
It's my quest at getting on Bungie Favorites.
Tieno
Member
OMG Luke and TJ Ramirez are so much better than me.
http://statsreloaded.com/SRNET/halo3/compareplayers.php?cid=4650
http://statsreloaded.com/SRNET/halo3/
http://statsreloaded.com/SRNET/halo3/compareplayers.php?cid=4650
Register your gamertag at statsreloaded and let it gather your entire stats history. Hope Ramirez and Luke don't mind I registered theirs to compare, although it's still gathering
Tieno said:OMG Luke and TJ Ramirez are so much better than me.
http://statsreloaded.com/SRNET/halo3/compareplayers.php?cid=4650
http://statsreloaded.com/SRNET/halo3/Register your gamertag at statsreloaded and let it gather your entire stats history. Hope Ramirez and Luke don't mind I registered theirs to compare, although it's still gathering
My favorite map is the Pit according to that thing, I fucking loathe that map these days! High Ground ftw!
Diablohead
Member
What's this about melee's and health? I can deplete someones shield before they half mine but I still lose the melee because of lag, and theres nothing I can do about it without moving to another living location with something better then cable internet :lol
Seriously, it what stops me playing halo online much now, only boot the game up when my cousin wants to play doubles.
Seriously, it what stops me playing halo online much now, only boot the game up when my cousin wants to play doubles.
kirbutashi
Member
Well, my 360 red ringed. So, time to play second-hand forge.
I'll find Duplo blocks for crates.
;-;
Good thing I made my player one podcast halo-clip before my system died.
I'll find Duplo blocks for crates.
;-;
Good thing I made my player one podcast halo-clip before my system died.
The thing I noticed last night while playing and meleeing is the time of "simeultaneous" melee is too long. I think it's up to a second for the other person to melee and still win. Like, me and this other guy get into a fight. I melee him, he has up to a second, which is a lot of time in a battle like that, to melee me and still kill me if he has a shread more health. Plain and simple, whoever melees first should win. The only way to fix that is to cloe the window for the simeultaneou melee.
Diablohead
Member
Halo 2 never had this problem with melee for what I remember, why have they made it so bad for halo 3?JdFoX187 said:
They made it this way so that the person with the most health in a simultaneous melee would win. It was to fix a problem that didn't need to be fixed.
Anyone else having problems with levelling up? I've won like at least eight or nine straight Team Slayer matches and still haven't leveled up past a 31.
Anyone else having problems with levelling up? I've won like at least eight or nine straight Team Slayer matches and still haven't leveled up past a 31.
siamesedreamer
Banned
The melee is completely FUBARed. The only way I've been able to kill anyone tonight is by assassination. Its almost like something has changed in the last couple of days...
siamesedreamer said:
I havent played in the last 2 days and my experience anyway has been really small so far (just finished training and i´m apprentice grade 2) but i did notice the "problem" with melee in the latest matches as its something i use as much as possible.
I died in guardian a few times that way even if i was the first doing the melee attack and i think we had the same amount of shield.
Been toying with making Halo 3 remakes of Halo 2 maps, Coagulation on Valhalla, Lockout on Guardian, Zanzibar on Last Resort.. Mostly putting the weapons and vehicles in the corresponding spot..Gadfly said:
Though I'm a little miffed about the restriction on vehicles, the only map I've seen that I can put a gauss Warthog on is Last Resort, and I can't put any Prowlers on Valhalla. Also wanted to make a version of High Ground with a little more beefed up defenses, but I could only put down one more machine gun turret.
Would be a lot better to be able to put as many of whatever you want, as long as you don't exceed the budget.
Blueblur1 said:
I'm dying for flame grenades on a map. Maybe they have a slower respawn and dont appear everywhere on the map so they are more of a power weapon spawn (since bungie said they were overpowered).
I'm not a forger, but I see the potential there. I think the ability to build some permenant walls or floating platforms that dont have physics, would really expand its' uses and open it up even more.
Stoney Mason
Banned
Dirtbag 504 said:
I've never understood why a true map editor wasn't part of the package especially since this is the final one. I maintain hope that they will release one.
Yeah, I would like to see that one as well, would make it a lot easier to block off paths you didn't want to be used (e.g when I was making my Zanzibar-remake I wanted to block off the walkway from Camp Froman around to the base).Dirtbag 504 said:
Forge is good at switching out weapons on maps, rebalancing them, moving around some vehicles and spawns, but above that it's a bit too constrained. I understand the need for a budget but there is no point in having it when you can't place as many of X item as you want (while still staying within the budget).
And not allowing certain vehicles limits it even more. I could understand not being able to place a Scorpion on Narrows, but not being able to place a Prowler on Valhalla or a Gauss Hog on any other map than Last Resort (that I know of, can't seem to place one on Valhalla, Sandtrap or High Ground).
Even if Bungie thinks that having a shitload of Hogs on Snowbound would make it unplayable I should still have the option to put them there, as long as I stay under budget. If the map is then unplayable then I or my friends won't play it.
Though I have some hope for a patch or DLC, freeing up Forge a little or adding some more objects, or actually allowing me to put my Gauss Hogs on Valhalla, cause without them my Coagulation remake falls a little short