-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Halo Lore Thread
- Thread starter Korten
- Start date
LordOfChaos
Member
So 343 made all Halo media equal canon, right? I wonder if that's true if Halo 5 will show this stuff again or will start after it, and like 4 require some prior knowledge of the story between games?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYxc2pvbK7Q&list=UUptNOWTizPKjnHYLydzUWbw
(next comic issue spoilers)
But fighting with some of the original Spartan IIs against the Didact...Awesome. Exactly what I wanted.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYxc2pvbK7Q&list=UUptNOWTizPKjnHYLydzUWbw
(next comic issue spoilers)
But fighting with some of the original Spartan IIs against the Didact...Awesome. Exactly what I wanted.
GringoSuave89
Banned
I finally decided my dream artist for Halo Escalation:
Clayton Crain
So good.
Clayton Crain
(Not the best example, but it was the fastest interior art by him I could find)
So good.
Onikaan
Member
Be still my fucking heart.
Where is this picture from?
Master Yoshi
Member
The Halo 5 video from Gamescom.
GringoSuave89
Banned
Either this Wednesday or next, I don't remember.
I got a timer of when the next issue comes out in the first post.
Poodlestrike
Banned
I'm thinking that the 104 is probably just an easter egg, but in the event that it's not, I've got a guess about how they're going to use Blue Team.
The way I see it, if they introduce them in the style us lore nerds are accustomed to (rolling with the Chief, cracking in-jokes, etc.), they run the risk of alienating the more casual/multiplayer focused fanbase. It'd be a repeat of the issues Halo 4 had with dependence on EU material, especially since it'd be tough to shoehorn in any serious amount of exposition without veering into serious As You Know territory or overreliance on flashbacks.
The solution? Pair them with Locke as he hunts/searches for the Chief. Who better to help Locke find him than his oldest team mates? It's got plenty of potential for drama, opens up the door significantly for natural exposition, and gives us the on-screen Blue Team appearance we've been craving for. Everybody wins.
The way I see it, if they introduce them in the style us lore nerds are accustomed to (rolling with the Chief, cracking in-jokes, etc.), they run the risk of alienating the more casual/multiplayer focused fanbase. It'd be a repeat of the issues Halo 4 had with dependence on EU material, especially since it'd be tough to shoehorn in any serious amount of exposition without veering into serious As You Know territory or overreliance on flashbacks.
The solution? Pair them with Locke as he hunts/searches for the Chief. Who better to help Locke find him than his oldest team mates? It's got plenty of potential for drama, opens up the door significantly for natural exposition, and gives us the on-screen Blue Team appearance we've been craving for. Everybody wins.
Calm Killer
In all media, only true fans who consume every book, film, game, or pog collection deserve to know what's going on.
OMG.....Fred YES PLEASE!
That's a decent solution, but when it comes to TVTropes stuff, I find it's garbage to use as a rationale for doing or not doing something. Everything's a trope, and what matters is execution not that you can classify it under exposition. There's a huge difference from someone having a briefing for the player's benefit and saying, "Blue Team, of which Master Chief was a member, and which includes Fred, Kelly, and Linda " and, for example, seeing Blue Team and Locke walk out of a briefing, and some Marines nearby commenting on that:
That's just my bad writing on the spot, but it conveys a lot of background detail, and addresses "casual player" expectations without feeling like it's exposition for *us* as players, and leaving it up to us to actually piece some stuff together rather than being force-fed something, which usually kills plot momentum. There's very little "bad writing" in the Librarian cutscenethe prose is lyrical and I like the little exchanges the characters have. But from a narrative standpoint it comes out of seemingly nowhere, it forces all the action to grind to a halt for an explanation for what you've seen in the game thus far, and it doesn't have immediate consequences or payoffs (the rest of the mission continues on essentially the same.) That's what you want to avoid, and that's where you get the "info dump" complaints, et al.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Not sure what you mean by the TVtropes comment. I'm using it as an example of a problem that might arise, not as a reason to do (or not do) something. As You Know is just an example of poorly handled exposition, after all. Tropes are tools, yes, but they're also conventions, things and ideas that have entered the public consciousness and inform our understanding of storytelling. For instance, players unfamiliar with the EU might interpret the appearance of unfamiliar characters who are highly familiar with the Chief as being an example of Remember the New Guy, even if they're not familiar with the specifics of the trope itself. Doing this runs the risk of alienating them from the story as a whole.
You're right about the Librarian scene, to an extent. I think it was kind of necessary at that point, and probably handled as well as it could have been without drastically altering the plot, but it definitely did bad things to the story's momentum.
Your example works well, really. That's a very good way to establish Blue Team's identities... when they're working with Locke. I just feel like having them with the Chief at the start would be awkward, narratively speaking, for the people who don't know about them.
greenleafcm
Neo Member
Your Blue-Team-partners-with-Locke idea certainly has merit, and it's definitely an option for them to take. However, I think that would be a waste of Blue Team's (and Locke's to an extent) potential for character development. I'll try to explain my reasoning...
The fact is, if Blue Team is going to be in 'Halo 5' some exposition on who they are and why they are relevant will have to be given. And it could be executed either well or poorly no matter who they are accompanying - be it Agent Locke or the Master Chief. You cant avoid that part of it. It simply comes down to whether or not the writing is done well and the dialogue placed properly. In my opinion though, to not have them with the Chief would be a little redundant. Here are three people that know the Chief very well and with whom he can interact with in a personal way that we've never seen him able to do with any other character(s) before, so why not use them in this way? They could be a big factor in the story continuing to examine the Chief as a man, which is supposedly a major goal in this new era of the Halo franchise. In the EU we've seen just how much the Chief cares for his Spartans, and how they're a family. This could make for some incredibly compelling scenes that even people who aren't versed in the Chief's backstory could appreciate and get invested in - again, provided it is written well.
Also, with Locke being a new major player, I feel like it would be difficult for them to balance giving him proper character development as well if he's also going to have to be sharing a lot of his screentime with the other members of Blue Team. Because unlike the Chief, he wont be able to interact with them in a personal way at all. And in that event someone will have to be sidelined, and it will probably be Blue Team - which would not make longtime Halo fans happy, and again would make their involvement in the first place seem rather pointless. Anther thing to note too, is that in the first trailer showing Locke, and in other bits of info that have come out since about the 'Master Chief Collection' tying in to 'Halo 5', there is a strong indication that at some point Locke will seek out the Arbiter for information and advice in regards to finding the Master Chief. Why would he need to do that if he has Blue Team with him? They'd know practically everything there is to know about the Chief personally, and about the events surrounding his disappearance - seeing as how they're currently accompanying him during whatever misadventure leads up to that in 'Halo: Escalation'.
Anyway, I just feel that the story would be better served if Blue Team were with their old squad leader. They could provide new ground for the emotional weight of the narrative to stand on by raising the stakes for the Chief's personal story and character development - without interfering with Locke establishing his own presence or taking a backseat to him.
Poodlestrike
Banned
Well argued. I'm just worried about how they'll be received by the general public. Introducing new characters is a tricky business at the best of times, and ones that have an enormous amount of history with main characters is even harder. Putting them with Locke makes it a great deal easier to justify info-dumps, and allows people to get to know them a bit before the meeting.
I will say, however, that depending how things go, Locke approaching the Arbiter doesn't preclude him being with Blue Team for a period. It might be that they start with him, and end up either splitting off to join up with the Chief or moving on to some other assignment.
greenleafcm
Neo Member
I understand your concern. And I agree it is tough to introduce new characters under any circumstance. However, is it really better to put Blue Team with Locke, where they're hardly as effective as characters, simply for the sake of making "info dumps" more palatable for people who don't know the EU? I get that Halo should be accessible to players of varying knowledge of canon. But at the same time, we're at game five now...and I simply don't think sacrificing a good story option for the sake of accessibility is the right way to go. I still believe that exposition surrounding Blue Team could be done effectively even if they're with the Chief. It would be a case of "show don't tell". I think it would be much more interesting and investing for gamers to get to know these characters by actually seeing them interact with the Chief as his teammates and friends, rather than just having them on the sidelines telling Locke about it - who really has no business or reason to know any of that stuff anyway.
And if Blue Team were to be in the game with Locke, how would it be good either to suddenly remove them from the story to justify a rendezvous with the Arbiter for more information? It's just one of those pieces that doesn't fit. And this is why I have my hope that Blue Team will indeed be accompanying the Chief for Halo 5 at least, if not beyond. For them to be with Locke or elsewhere doesn't make much sense with the way the story seems to be going. Also, they have been (*cough* conveniently written out of the main games' plot *cough*) separated from the Chief three times now...I would be highly disappointed in the folks at 343i if they really felt the need to do it again. It's kind of getting silly at this point if you ask me.
Hopefully this next issue of 'Escalation' will help shed some light on Blue Team's future role. And either way, we'll find out for certain at the end of September with the end of the story arc.
Slightly Live
Dirty tag dodger
Chief somehow stabs Didact in the right eye.
Pfft, Forerunner armour these days.
LordOfChaos
Member
It explains Forerunner shields in Ghosts of Onyx in a way that would make sense in. Ie, rocks can hit sentinels, bullets can't. It's also like shields in Dune, where only fast moving projectiles activate it, so slow moving knives can still kill you.
So do you guys think Halo 5 will follow the plot in these Escalation comics? Even if it shows new story points later, do you think it will re-show all this?
Poodlestrike
Banned
I don't think so, no. I think that they'll try and limit the impact the comics have on the plot as much as possible. My money's on this being relatively self contained. Chief and Blue Team dispatch the Didact and wrap up this storyline in such a way that it isn't necessary to read it to get what's going on in 5 and why that is.
My thoughts as well.
And shields being vulnerable to certain attacks is a pretty common trope, and for some good reasons. You want to be able to manipulate things around you, still breathe, and still be armoredthough it's never addressed in the games the Mk V+'s solution of thinning the energy shield around hands and feet obviously makes those far more vulnerable. To add to the above list, the Go'auld energy shields in Stargate operated on similar principleshigh-energy weapons and ballistics get bounced, slower-moving projectiles like a thrown knife can go through.
MrGreencastle
Member
Isn't that how Covenant and furthermore Mjolnir shield tech was explained as far back as in The Fall of Reach? I could have sworn Nylund laid out something similar when Chief was first testing shield-equipped Mjolnir Mk V. Either way, you're right, it is pretty common.
As for the story stuff, no disrespect to anyone working on the comics or comic book fans in general, but it does kind of give me the impression that 343 are stuffing this story into that series to give themselves a blankish slate for Halo 5. Certainly a lot of stuff post Halo 4 has seemed that way.
My money is on as of yet unrevealed/unexplored story pillar. Either Flood or MB or both, but that's also wishful thinking. The exploration of the realities of what we do know about the Flood at this point (ie: stuff not really talked about in-game post Halo 2) is a really interesting concept, but I don't know how the UrDidact as they are presenting him currently fits into all that aside from being a puppet himself, or just an unpredictable player that ultimately distracts from the big picture overall.
It all just strikes me as a bit odd. This is some serious shit going down right now. Spinning plates is one way to put it, but how the hell is anyone going to pick up Halo 5 without context of this stuff and even get it?
And if Blue Team gets killed off... I don't even know... But I'm prepared for it right now.
Munki
Member
I know I've said it in previous posts. But that truly would be a sad day for all Halo fans if Blue Team (including MC) dies. But as you are, I'm expecting the worst.
greenleafcm
Neo Member
Well in regards to it ending with the Chief being face-grabbed by the Didact, there's not really much suspense there, as we already know he's not going to be killed.
But there's plenty of other lingering questions to be resolved in the next issue though. I hope they'll be able to wrap everything up okay in just 20 more pages. These comics are pretty short. :\
Der Flatulator
Member
Considering diving into the Halo comic world. What do people recommend? Thinking Blood Line, Helljumper or Uprising. Or perhaps jump straight into Halo: Escalation?
Honestly Halo comics have at best IMO only been decent. Out of all of them Helljumper is probably the overall best, and Uprising the worst. If you just want to get caught up to speed only Escalation is really important to catch up on lore.
Der Flatulator
Member
Hmm, might read K5 first then Escalation when the hardback releases in October.
LordOfChaos
Member
I think the three are different, actually. Forerunner shields only snap into place when high velocity things are coming their way. Covenant shields are invisible until hit, but are always there. Human shields are also always there, so they have to thin the shields out at the hands and feet to have traction and feel/grip.
In a way, the Forerunner ones are less effective since you can still get shanked, just not shot. But they're also much stronger for those high velocity things.
I just read FoR recently so I recall that. It was also in Ghosts of Onyx for the forerunner ones.
ESCALATION INTENSIFIES
FWIW I know that certain community members have made it clear in-person to the people responsible for stuff like Escalation that the art especially is lacking. They certainly have heard it in unvarnished terms from people who they've asked for opinions from, so hopefully we'll see positive changes down the line (god knows how far in advance this stuff has to get set.)
MrGreencastle
Member
I mean, I'm not a comic type person, but escalation has been really low cost per issue, so the art isn't terrible considering. But it could certainly be better. Even looking at their other comics or especially something like the Halo Graphic Novel.
Oh, for sure. But when you're running a multibillion dollar media franchise, I think you should take all your output seriously and try and do the best you can. I dunno what obstacles there are in the comics industry that might cause some issues in that front (god knows a place where hack artists still regularly get work has some dysfunctions) but Microsoft can do a hell of a lot if it puts its mind to it.
The other issues with the writing to me really aren't an issue that the comics themselves can fix, honestly. The Didact's going to feel like a comic book villain because he's in a comic book and only has two pages to explain motivations.
If Brian Reed had a novel to tell this story I think we'd have had far more positive responses to it, all else being equal.
GringoSuave89
Banned
It's not a completely fair comparison, since Dark Horse is nowhere near DC's level, but for the same price you could get an issue of Batman with Greg Capullo's art, which is considered to be the best drawn comic out there since it started. Considering page length, and art, the only thing you're really paying for is the Halo name.
I agree, if this whole series was a book, we wouldn't be complaining to this degree. The storyline is actually pretty good, it just doesn't have the space to go into the detail it deserves.
In general, I'm not a comic book kind of guy; for that reason alone being why I most likely can't stand the writing in Escalation. I always thought that it was really rushed and haphazardly put together; however, you've sorta enlightened me to a viable source of this issue. I really walked into reading the comic with the expectations of reading a well-written story with pacing and all, but I guess you're right in that a comic really can only have as much exposition as there are pages.
As a general lurker, I thank you for enlightening me. Haha.
To be clear, I'm not exactly excusing 343 here, because you work with the medium you're in. You want to make a comic, you have to focus on stories that will work there. Issue 7 I think worked incredibly well; it was a small personal vignette that could make you feel something in that short span of time. Likewise the first story arc worked fairly well I think
With these more elaborate arcs that are introducing lots of new characters and new motivations, I think that spare storytelling starts to crumble. The Forerunner monitor is an interesting character, and I like how he sort of changes his mind about helping the Didact; but this change happens in the span of a page and so it feels like a cheat. Likewise, the return of Blue Team really needed another page or two to at least establish the rapport these characters have--but we didn't get that, and it's something fans were certainly going to expect.
All of this is just a long way of saying "make another Evolutions volume, dammit."
MrGreencastle
Member
The return of Blue Team needed a live action mini series. Or a novel.
A novel. No more comics please. I don't think I've really enjoyed them since Bloodlines or the graphic novel, and I only liked 2/4 of those.
gollumsluvslave
Member
Man, this is a great thread - got all the Halo books etc, can't believe I missed this!
Mr GreenCastle - post more love your stuff!
I'd like to throw out a couple of less popular views - I've just went through a full re-read of everything from Fall of Reach right through Kilo-5, and Greg Bear's amazing trilogy, and some things really hit me on a re-read, and these make the Halo universe so interesting to me
First - I really liked the Kilo-5 Trilogy, and have a lot of time for Parangosky and Co - and I give big props to Frankie and the rest of the big cheeses in Halo land for messing with things a bit, being a bit dangerous and upsetting the apple cart a bit. No sacred cows in Halo - I LIKE that. Plus, Parangosky's question to Halsey as to why she did the clone replacement thing is a REALLY good one IMO - that is her big beef with Halsey. That said, I almost read that as someone in 343 having a beef with someone back in Bungie and they are trying to poke holes... maybe? Or not
But seriously,I think there has to be some counter balance to the 'cookie cutter goodies' and none of it is stuff I think is too far fetched. If you were Mendez and had put kids through what he had done I suspect you'd maybe find living with yourself a tad uncomfortable no?
Plus, I don't think Halsey's categorisation has really been very different from the get go - she wants to KNOW things and that is priority. Not the warmest person? I certainly see the same Halsey in Traviss's books as Nylund's, just a bit older, a bit wearier with a LOT more water under the bridge.
I loved the Forerunner trilogy, and I suspect that on each re-read I will find more things I missed the previous time. Chakas and Riser were just great,and I now kind of want a 343 GS meets Riser as a Monitor moment...
In terms of the games, I'm an odd fish too - I'm not a multiplayer guy, all I'm in for is the campaign and the story, and my current rankings of campaigns are as follows (combined gameplay story score)
Halo CE > Halo 3 ODST > Halo 4 > Halo 3 > Halo Reach > Halo 2
I've left Halo Wars out of the main list because gameplay is so different, but it would god before Halo 2 which is easily my least favourite Halo game on EVERY level.
Need to get down to Forbidden Planet and get Escalation!
Mr GreenCastle - post more love your stuff!
I'd like to throw out a couple of less popular views - I've just went through a full re-read of everything from Fall of Reach right through Kilo-5, and Greg Bear's amazing trilogy, and some things really hit me on a re-read, and these make the Halo universe so interesting to me
First - I really liked the Kilo-5 Trilogy, and have a lot of time for Parangosky and Co - and I give big props to Frankie and the rest of the big cheeses in Halo land for messing with things a bit, being a bit dangerous and upsetting the apple cart a bit. No sacred cows in Halo - I LIKE that. Plus, Parangosky's question to Halsey as to why she did the clone replacement thing is a REALLY good one IMO - that is her big beef with Halsey. That said, I almost read that as someone in 343 having a beef with someone back in Bungie and they are trying to poke holes... maybe? Or not
But seriously,I think there has to be some counter balance to the 'cookie cutter goodies' and none of it is stuff I think is too far fetched. If you were Mendez and had put kids through what he had done I suspect you'd maybe find living with yourself a tad uncomfortable no?
Plus, I don't think Halsey's categorisation has really been very different from the get go - she wants to KNOW things and that is priority. Not the warmest person? I certainly see the same Halsey in Traviss's books as Nylund's, just a bit older, a bit wearier with a LOT more water under the bridge.
I loved the Forerunner trilogy, and I suspect that on each re-read I will find more things I missed the previous time. Chakas and Riser were just great,and I now kind of want a 343 GS meets Riser as a Monitor moment...
In terms of the games, I'm an odd fish too - I'm not a multiplayer guy, all I'm in for is the campaign and the story, and my current rankings of campaigns are as follows (combined gameplay story score)
Halo CE > Halo 3 ODST > Halo 4 > Halo 3 > Halo Reach > Halo 2
I've left Halo Wars out of the main list because gameplay is so different, but it would god before Halo 2 which is easily my least favourite Halo game on EVERY level.
Need to get down to Forbidden Planet and get Escalation!
GringoSuave89
Banned
You're alright, kid. You're alright.
Rampant speculation of four years ago... mmm...
GringoSuave89
Banned
Poodlestrike
Banned
Part of me kind of wishes he was right.
Hey guys so we have Halo: Broken Circle, coming November 4th and just wanted to get your opinions on what we should do.
Unlike: Halo Escalation we should be getting a lot of meaty stuff so should we have a sort of dedicated book discussion be put in place and spoilers be put in tags since unlike the Escalation comic, it takes much longer to get through a 352 book than a 20 page comic
Unlike: Halo Escalation we should be getting a lot of meaty stuff so should we have a sort of dedicated book discussion be put in place and spoilers be put in tags since unlike the Escalation comic, it takes much longer to get through a 352 book than a 20 page comic