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Halo |OT 21| Battle is the Great Redeemer | LIVE. DIE. RESPAWN.

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Not that I disagree with you, but there is always another option...

remote_mute_button_fig.jpg

Yeah... I'm using a headset and the Xbox One stereo headset adapter disables the native audio sliders so I'm forced to use the game/microphone balancing buttons. What I've been doing to counteract the blaring menu music is jamming the microphone balance to maximum, completely cutting out the game audio. It's inconvenient because you then have to find the right balance once the game begins, and that particular balance is different depending on which Halo gets chosen.

First world problems for sure, but it's such an easy fix.
 
you can't FORCE EVERYONE to do this.

You can't force anyone to do anything. Should we let the game control players' movement and aiming too? I mean, just like some players don't have mics so you want automated callouts, some players might be AFK so we should let the game control their movement and aiming too right?
 

Booshka

Member
Can you start a Custom Soundtrack to mute the Menu music, then pause the Custom soundtrack for silence? That's what I used to do on 360.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Lmao Tristatetryhard

You gotta chill bro. Most of hgaf is all about increasing the skill gap, but saying Spartan call outs is the same as clamber? Cmon son.

Spartan call outs is a great feature for when playing with randos. You can coordinate well and everything even if those guys aren't talking. Id love for everyone to have mics and talk again but that's not a reality in a post party chat world. I don't see how they cheapen the game.

I can see the "accessibility" of clamber and "power weapons in 10" but are you really gonna rag on Spartan call outs being a casual feature?





For the record I think clamber is alright, as long as there are still skill jumps that require timing as precision.

And I think the announcer shouldn't warn you that weapons are inbound I think the announcer or HUD should tell you when a weapon has spawned. This way everyone knows rockets/snipe is up but the team that was managing the clock better knew to be there early and picked it up on spawn.
 
My stance has been consistent. The game shouldn't be doing anything a player can do for himself. Clamber and auto callouts are the same in that regard, they are both something the player should be doing for himself but the game is taking control of now.
 

jem0208

Member
You can't see the difference between a human using his eyes, ears, and mouth to perform an accurate call out and the game automatically performing a perfect call out for them?

The problem with your argument lies with assuming people actually communicate effectively and usefully. Unfortunately they don't and we get absolutely no information from the other players in our team. The makes proper teamwork extremely difficult. With the spartan callouts we will have that information and whilst it's not really the same as actual communication, it does mean players can actually work as a team to kill the enemy.

If communication with mics was actually commonplace then I might agree with you. Knowledge is required to effectively communicate and adding in callouts would reduce the importance of that knowledge. However this just isn't the case.

Also, I can see the difference, however it's still completely different to bloom.

And I think the announcer shouldn't warn you that weapons are inbound I think the announcer or HUD should tell you when a weapon has spawned. This way everyone knows rockets/snipe is up but the team that was managing the clock better knew to be there early and picked it up on spawn.

This is a great idea.
 
I've never used my mic more than when I played Halo 2. People nearly always had their mics on. That's what was so much fun about higher level play, communication and teamwork.
 
Callouts directly affect gameplay for other players. My teammates using their kinnect doesn't affect me at all. Try again.

What I'm saying, though, is that there's a difference between industry-manufactured changes in the gameplay environment (such as Sprint or ADS) and an evolution of social mechanics pertaining to and brought on by the consumers themselves - in this case, a substantial decrease in players actively using mics with players they're matched up with. Player chat has been on the downfall ever since party chats were introduced, and never really recovered. There were already sound reasons players had not to use their mics, from not being able to afford / get one at the time, to opting out because of sex or nationality because of how many manbabies frequented matchmaking and would go "wait, a girl?!" or "wait, you're black?!" at the drop of a hat, or even something as simple as not wanted to disturb parents / significant others / children in the later hours of the night. The last time I really even used mics in public matchmaking was early on in Halo 3's lifespan. For one, not every player is going to see a mic as a valid form of competitive communication - 9 times out of 10, I've been matched with people shitting on the enemy team and shouting racial slurs or whatever rather than making callouts or providing useful information. You can say "well that just means you're part of the problem" all you want, but the fact of the matter is players just aren't using their mics the way they were in Halo 2. Introducing an element like artifical, game-engineered callouts is an example of a developer actually introducing a gameplay element due to changes in the player-consumer environment, rather than "innovating" by boostrapping homogenized mechanics to an unrelated game the way ADS is being handled. Players absolutely have a say in the landscape of game design, and the decrease in mic usage is direct evidence of that. The difference compared to something like Sprint or slide-punching is that HaloGAF is, like, twelve people on an internet forum bitching about games they play once every 6 months and then spend the rest of their time hating each other. The mic usage thing is actually an example of players making a difference ingame, and at an extremely large scale.

Even if you don't like the idea of in-game pre-engineered callouts, it acknowledges 343 is directly trying to improve accessibility in mechanics such as map control or power weapon spawns in a way that hasn't really been done before without players directly communicating. Obviously, yeah, stuff like "let's send them back to basic" or "clean kill" is superfluous, or not - audio triggers may still be contextual, with (speculation) "clean kill" representing a frag that was done without taking health damage, or "nice headshot" informing you it was actually a snipe, rather than two bodyshots - but bottom line is they're still trying to relay information and invoke tactical play in a way that doesn't actively detriment other players the way gameplay-altering mechanics like Personal Ordnance or extremely obstructive UI elements do. You can say it's handicapping Halo and it's overly hand-holdy all you want, but this is a direct example of player population having an influence on a game's mechanical design. If you want to make waves in their emergent design, quit acting like you're interested in the damn game they're making. You're still here, aren't you?
 
My stance has been consistent. The game shouldn't be doing anything a player can do for himself. Clamber and auto callouts are the same in that regard, they are both something the player should be doing for himself but the game is taking control of now.

I agree with you generally, but clamber is more of a design philosophy change. What I mean is, before you had to make manual jumps without using your upper body, but now you can jump almost anywhere with clamber.

I'm not sure how I feel about it but it's really not a great comparison IMO.
 

TTUVAPOR

Banned
My stance has been consistent. The game shouldn't be doing anything a player can do for himself. Clamber and auto callouts are the same in that regard, they are both something the player should be doing for himself but the game is taking control of now.

It's crutch-gameplay. COD started it, Halo 5 is just continuing it.

Perks
Auto-callouts
Auto-timing


Basically, one day we will have shooters that don't even require aiming, you'll just press the right trigger and watch. If your gun runs out of ammo, it will auto-reload for you too. The ultimate veg shooter.


EDIT:

I'd like to also quote Jon Blow on game design, "If you take out the act of discovery in games, then what do you have?"

I'm paraphrasing him, but the act of discovery is what makes a game a game. If we dont have to memorize the timing of weapon drops, or the locations of the weapons, or pay attention to when a weapon was picked up by the opposition, etc, etc...then what's the point?

The act of discovery is rapidly declining in today's games, and it's across all genres.
 
To say that "players should make callouts instead of letting the game do it for them" is backward.

If I jump into a 4v4 list solo or as part of a small party and I have teammates who are not calling out, I cannot make those callouts for them. Auto callouts aren't a crutch for me, they're fixing the inevitable problem of shitty teammates in MM.

As long as I am given some kind of control over the amount/frequency of them I say they're a good step forward.
 
Basically, one day we will have shooters that don't even require aiming, you'll just press the right trigger and watch. If your gun runs out of ammo, it will auto-reload for you too. The ultimate veg shooter.

That's one reason I think Fallout 3 was so successful. VATS allowed RPG fans to still enjoy their game while players more interesting in shooting for themselves could play that way too. I'm not against hand holding in all scenarios. It's just that Halo's beauty was in its simple yet deep nature. The quality of two evenly matched teams' callouts could literally decide who won. I'm just not as fan of the continual dilluation of Halo's gameplay.
 

dwells

Member
The problem with your argument lies with assuming people actually communicate effectively and usefully. Unfortunately they don't and we get absolutely no information from the other players in our team. The makes proper teamwork extremely difficult.

That's exactly the point - effective communication is difficult, and it should be. It's part of teamwork and it's part of the skill gap. Effective team chatter was a huge, huge deal in Halo 2 especially. Balancing the amount of communication on your team and making effective call outs was a very important skill and had a direct impact on a team's success.

If a team couldn't communicate effectively, it didn't matter who they were - their game was going ot suffer as a result. The best put together pro teams had this down to a science and had excellently balanced communication which provided a lot of information to their teammates without oversaturating the chat with constant noise.

When you add perfect, automatic call outs, you're eliminating a major point of the game in favor of something that lessens the skill gap. Imagine a game of professional chess where every time a player moves, the board announces how many moves away from checkmate their current setup is. Careful observation and communication are centric to the game.
 

TTUVAPOR

Banned
To say that "players should make callouts instead of letting the game do it for them" is backward.

If I jump into a 4v4 list solo or as part of a small party and I have teammates who are not calling out, I cannot make those callouts for them. Auto callouts aren't a crutch for me, they're fixing the inevitable problem of shitty teammates in MM.

As long as I am given some kind of control over the amount/frequency of them I say they're a good step forward.


It should be something that can be toggled in custom games or even for a pro playlist. Good players don't need the auto-callouts. Not having them forces players to think more.
 

jem0208

Member
That's exactly the point - effective communication is difficult, and it should be. It's part of teamwork and it's part of the skill gap. Effective team chatter was a huge, huge deal in Halo 2 especially. Balancing the amount of communication on your team and making effective call outs was a very important skill and had a direct impact on a team's success.

If a team couldn't communicate effectively, it didn't matter who they were - their game was going ot suffer as a result. The best put together pro teams had this down to a science and had excellently balanced communication which provided a lot of information to their teammates without oversaturating the chat with constant noise.

When you add perfect, automatic call outs, you're eliminating a major point of the game in favor of something that lessens the skill gap. Imagine a game of professional chess where every time a player moves, the board announces how many moves away from checkmate their current setup is. Careful observation and communication are centric to the game.


I touched on this in my post, I agree that effective communication is an important skill. However currently there is almost no communication at all. If communication was still common then I would agree that callouts would be reducing the skill gap. However communication as a skill has effectively disappeared in all but pro games.
 
Okay, how about this: artificial in-game callouts are only doing the player's work for them if you're controlling all four members of your team at once. Even with artificial callouts off, you can relay more information than the god damn post-game carnage report on your own but it's not going to do anything if your teammates are already in party chats or have party chat muted.
 

Computer

Member
I like his solution to the call outs.
Less dude bros yelling at me to go get the sniper.
You still need to be aware of the map weapon spawn points.
What if a little picture of a Rocket Launcher would pop up next the the game clock ten seconds before it was going to spawn? This could be enabled in social gametypes.
 

klodeckel

Banned
a) Reading all this "but real communication adds much more value to the game" is so damn theoretical. Because maybe 10% of the people in matchmaking are actually talking. Real communication does not add anything today in solo matchmaking because no one is using their headsets. That's why Spartan chatter is great in this case to push teamplay.

b) A different situation for a "party" that is indeed talking with each other. Group matchmaking, real eSport matches. The Spartan chatter is redudant in this case.

That said - make it a toggle. Problem solved. You loose nothing. But you can win something.
 

Tawpgun

Member
Jesus Christ guys. Not everyone has mics. Not everyone can use mics. Not everyone wants to use mics.

Auto timers and clamber and all this stuff I agree is hand holding

But bitching about auto call outs? REALLY?

The reality is people don't use game chat much anymore. It's frustrsting. At least with the call outs it's less frustrating.

You want to address a communication problem by believing if you get rid of auto call outs it will force people to use mics but this thinking is ignoring reality.
 

TTUVAPOR

Banned
Every year since 2007 when COD4 came out, I've cringed at the ongoing expansion of accessibility in the video game industry across all genres.
 

dwells

Member
I touched on this in my post, I agree that effective communication is an important skill. However currently there is almost no communication at all. If communication was still common then I would agree that callouts would be reducing the skill gap. However communication as a skill has effectively disappeared in all but pro games.

Tough cookies, honestly. If you search matchmaking with randoms at low ranks, that's the price you're gonna pay for it. If the randoms on the other team are communicating, then good for them, they deserve the advantage.
 

Tawpgun

Member
A team communicating with mics is still gonna wipe the other teams butts.

Spartan chatter didn't seem too encompassing tbh. But I'd appreciate knowing the enemy team has a sniper from a micless rando
 
Tough cookies, honestly. If you search matchmaking with randoms at low ranks, that's the price you're gonna pay for it. If the randoms on the other team are communicating, then good for them, they deserve the advantage.

But that advantage has nothing to do with the game they are playing. Whether my friends are available to play or not is totally arbitrary. Whether or not I'm matched onto a team with players who communicate or not is totally arbitrary. Aren't we in favor of cutting down on luck-based outcomes in Halo?
 

Sephzilla

Member
The only way I think you're actually going to get people to actually communicate again is by disabling party chat for ranked playlists. There's absolutely nothing you'll be able to do about someone not plugging a microphone in, but you should at least filter out the people who want to jump into a ranked playlist but would rather talk to their buddies who are off playing something else.
 

jem0208

Member
Tough cookies, honestly. If you search matchmaking with randoms at low ranks, that's the price you're gonna pay for it. If the randoms on the other team are communicating, then good for them, they deserve the advantage.

So you're saying I should get punished if the semi-random matchmaking happens to place me with players who aren't communicating?
 

Tawpgun

Member
But that advantage has nothing to do with the game they are playing. Whether my friends are available to play or not is totally arbitrary. Whether or not I'm matched onto a team with players who communicate or not is totally arbitrary. Aren't we in favor of cutting down on luck-based outcomes in Halo?
Having more friends that are unemployed and have no responsibilities so they can poopsock halo all day with you whenever you want is a skill bro.

Stop being so fuckin casual.
 

Booshka

Member
In-Game callouts should be an input that the player has to do for themselves. I understand and welcome an in-game callout mechanic, but I don't like the automation of it in Halo 5. Like spotting in Battlefield/Gears, Pinging in LoL, D pad inputs for callouts in Shadowrun, these are all welcome additions to MP games. General mic chatter in Matchmaking is way down. An in-game callout system should be there for players to utilize, but it shouldn't be automatic, and not extremely specific either. That's where the benefit of mic chatter comes into play.
 

dwells

Member
So you're saying I should get punished if the semi-random matchmaking happens to place me with players who aren't communicating?

Yes, the same way you get punished if it happens to place you with players who can't aim, don't know the map, don't play for the objective, etc. Communication is a key game skill just like those things are. If a player is missing that skill, the game shouldn't pick it up for them.
 

Tawpgun

Member
In-Game callouts should be an input that the player has to do for themselves. I understand and welcome an in-game callout mechanic, but I don't like the automation of it in Halo 5. Like spotting in Battlefield/Gears, Pinging in LoL, D pad inputs for callouts in Shadowrun, these are all welcome additions to MP games. General mic chatter in Matchmaking is way down. An in-game callout system should be there for players to utilize, but it shouldn't be automatic, and not extremely specific either. That's where the benefit of mic chatter comes into play.

Been wanting a spotting mechanic in halo for so long. Shadowruns was awesome.

But tbh the Spartan chatter I heard didn't seem that specific. No more specific that "one elf on big hole, artifact on stairs" being automatic and having to just look in the general direction and press d pad isn't really a big deal.
 

VinFTW

Member
Yes, the same way you get punished if it happens to place you with players who can't aim, don't know the map, don't play for the objective, etc. Communication is a key game skill just like those things are. If a player is missing that skill, the game shouldn't pick it up for them.

About 1% of the population communicates anymore on most console competitive shooters, especially Halo.

Let's be real here and not overemphasize the importance of communication for lower tier play.

pros will be pros and communicate like they normally do, hence a toggle off option should be good, but for those that don't communicate anyway (99% of the population), let's just do it for them. It helps build map awareness, learning key areas of the map, weapon spawn awareness, etc.
 
The only way I think you're actually going to get people to actually communicate again is by disabling party chat for ranked playlists. There's absolutely nothing you'll be able to do about someone not plugging a microphone in, but you should at least filter out the people who want to jump into a ranked playlist but would rather talk to their buddies who are off playing something else.

I agree. Disable that OS feature and warn them in the play list description.
 
Yes, the same way you get punished if it happens to place you with players who can't aim, don't know the map, don't play for the objective, etc. Communication is a key game skill just like those things are. If a player is missing that skill, the game shouldn't pick it up for them.

So you award the win to the team that happens to have been randomly paired up with the most people with mics turned on? Fuck the guy on the other team who went +20 but lost because nobody told him someone was camping with shotty by the bomb plant point?

How is that not rewarding luck?
 
A team communicating with mics is still gonna wipe the other teams butts.

Spartan chatter didn't seem too encompassing tbh. But I'd appreciate knowing the enemy team has a sniper from a micless rando

i don't think this came out the way you meant it to come out
 

TTUVAPOR

Banned
The fun of timing power weapons and powerups is what made it "fun". Now I won't have to worry about timing anything...the game will do it for me. "Sniper rifles in 10 seconds."

Woohoo, one less thing for me to have to manage in my mind right?

/sarcasm
 

VinFTW

Member
The fun of timing power weapons and powerups is what made it "fun". Now I won't have to worry about timing anything...the game will do it for me. "Sniper rifles in 10 seconds."

Woohoo, one less thing for me to have to manage in my mind right?

/sarcasm

I'll agree that showing when and where power weapons spawn sucks. The glowing gold outline of the weapon should be enough if you can see the weapons spawn site, but telling people the time and location it spawns AND if the enemy gets it needs to be removed ASAP.

They've already received several complaints from the pro's about it.
 

dwells

Member
I agree. Disable that OS feature and warn them in the play list description.

I agree as well. Ranked playlists should have forced game chat. It's a big part of Halo.

So you award the win to the team that happens to have been randomly paired up with the most people with mics turned on? Fuck the guy on the other team who went +20 but lost because nobody told him someone was camping with shotty by the bomb plant point?

How is that not rewarding luck?

When you search alone in a team game, luck gets rewarded no matter what. Your teammates are luck of the draw. Again, it's just like if you got paired with teammates who don't go for objectives, don't know what they're doing, don't have thumbs, etc. The guy who went +20 would've been screwed if he got matched with three kids who go -10 each, but that doesn't mean the game should hand them kills.
 

Booshka

Member
Been wanting a spotting mechanic in halo for so long. Shadowruns was awesome.

But tbh the Spartan chatter I heard didn't seem that specific. No more specific that "one elf on big hole, artifact on stairs" being automatic and having to just look in the general direction and press d pad isn't really a big deal.

It's a big deal because the game shouldn't assume what a player is seeing on their screen, making a callout for them that they may have not even noticed. Having an input for it that the player has to utilize, removes that assumption and makes it based on player awareness and skill.
 
Spotting has always been bad for competetive play. Let someone put a glowing orange triangle over my head so you can track my position through walls.

Promethean vision 2.0
 

Akai__

Member
Holy shit guys I just had the best in-game bug ever. Killed the Grunts and Elites that came down the lift in The Maw and I got like 50 Killinoaire medals. Putting us on 52k points in campaign scoring.

My whole screen was covered in Killionaire medals and points. It was awesome.
 

Booshka

Member
Spotting has always been bad for competetive play. Let someone put a glowing orange triangle over my head so you can track my position through walls.

Promethean vision 2.0

I agree with this as well, which is why I like Shadowrun's general area callout and LoL's Ping better than Gears/Battlefield just putting a red icon directly over the player. Calling out the location is what a player would be able to do, so it's a fair alternative to having a mic, a mic is still optimal because you can have more specific callouts. The general area location callout isn't cheap like a full on red dot exact spot is.
 

Mdot

Member
Hahaha with MCC, think of it as A Better Tomorrow
all those classic ingredients, but it fails spectacularly

This week. But the previous patches fixed pretty much nothing.

It's a great games buried under a pile of dog shit. If your a patient man just run some campaign instead untill the games fixed.

Couldn't hurt to try a little matchmaking and see what you think. I'd be a lot happier if I had just waited to jump into a working game though.

Yea, I'm in no rush. I'll run through the campaign and then hop into MP once it's more solid. CE, 2 and 3 haven't gone anywhere so waiting a little longer can't hurt.


Once it is functioning and everyone is on, everyone feel free to add me on Live: Mdot twenty3
 

Tawpgun

Member
It's a big deal because the game shouldn't assume what a player is seeing on their screen, making a callout for them that they may have not even noticed. Having an input for it that the player has to utilize, removes that assumption and makes it based on player awareness and skill.
Do we know what the Spartan chatter is like?

If you need to have your reticle on the player or have it be red or be on the player for x amount of time before the call
Out the it's fine.


And I fuckin spam that call out button in shadowrun because half the time it sees shit I don't anyway lol. Same with spotting in battlefield.
 
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