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[Ranker]

If the game was close you'd play for the team either way because then there's a chance you'll win and gain points, rather than lose points.

Would you? If it's close and you want to min/max, then you'd rather make those last few kills steals, just in case?

I mean, there's some threshold at which you start playing in a degenerate way. Maybe it's a 10 point lead, maybe it's 5, and it's going to be different depending on the type of player you are. Some players lose hope a lot sooner than others. Do you want those players on your team losing hope at a 5 point deficit and switching to kill steal instead of assist mode?

Do you want this whole new selfish metagame worming its way into team slayer?

I'm not saying which way is right, I'm just pointing out what would happen, and what designers would ask themselves.



Oh, and thanks for having me

 

[User 73706]

Ladies, ladies.

If you like a ranking system that relies heavily on win/loss parameters, keep track of your Competitive Skill Rank.

If you don't, keep track of your Spartan Rank.

They finally have a rank based on performance, and a rank based on having the most fun. Pick a side.

 

[tootsi666]

If you know you're guaranteed to lose why are you still playing for the team? With the current system, a player who cares about ranks and stats would still go for the kill steal as that way they'd improve their KDA which is also on full display in their service record. There would be no point trying to continue playing for the team as that wouldn't net you any benefit.

If the game was close you'd play for the team either way because then there's a chance you'll win and gain points, rather than lose points.

When are you guaranteed to lose? If invidual performance mattered people would rather go for kills than possibility of winning at 40-45 situation.

 

[Caja 117]

Jem, Bungie tried this with Reach and it was so bad that by the 3rd ( or 4th season) they had to change it back to W/L ranking, everyone here thats against this had to go trough this in Reach and it was frustrating, even when you teamed up with people in your FL.

That example that ranker gaved happened a lot in reach, heck i got naded or sniped on porpuse by own teamate just so i can get killed, people will do anything just to get the prize they want.

 

[Tawpgun]

Personal perfomance shouldn't matter. It did in the first season of Reach's arena and it just led to people acting like dicks instead of helping the team

 

[JaggedSac]

So, my boyfriend came over earlier (sorry VisceralBowl N' Friends) for New Year's, and I had H5G up while I was waiting for him to get here. He asked if it was a new thing (EDIT: a new halo title, i should probably clarify) because he said it looked different (in particular a killcam on Truth), and I explained the beta to him. After he got settled in he says he wants to watch me play a match or two while he starts busting out the champagne, so I hop into Team Slayer. My first match is Empire and I start it out playing pretty defensively; I got Outie Snipe and mainly stayed on my toes keeping an eye out for enemy spawns on Top Innie (tower?), and literally the first thing to come out of his mouth is "this actually reminds me a lot of Call of Duty."

He's not even a shooter guy. I mean, check and mate, 343. It's pretty crazy how that works out.

I was playing Limbo the other day and my gf asked if it was a new Mario.

 

[blamite]

Ranker is very smart. Thanks Ranker!

 

[jem0208]

Would you? If it's close and you want to min/max, then you'd rather make those last few kills steals, just in case?

I mean, there's some threshold at which you start playing in a degenerate way. Maybe it's a 10 point lead, maybe it's 5, and it's going to be different depending on the type of player you are. Some players lose hope a lot sooner than others. Do you want those players on your team losing hope at a 5 point deficit and switching to kill steal instead of assist mode?

Do you want this whole new selfish metagame worming its way into team slayer?

I'm not saying which way is right, I'm just pointing out what would happen, and what designers would ask themselves.



Oh, and thanks for having me

You're always going to have that selfish metagame though. Having k/d ratios and KDA values be so prominent everywhere means people are going to be selfish and steal kills. You can see your kills and deaths mid game, it's immediate gratification if you steal that extra kill. I feel like k/d ratios have a far greater impact on people's split second decisions to be a team player or not, at least in solo play.

As for the close situation, I was more commenting on those clutch moments at the very end of a game. For the rest of the match, people are going to be selfish bastards either way because it means they'll have a higher k/d ratio. They'll have a more immediate reward. You aren't thinking about your rank mid match, you're thinking about winning and getting the most kills whilst doing so. Who cares if that guy dies, I'll have an extra kill.

Having a system which also takes into account your personal performance may mean a few extra moments of selfishness. However you're still going to be playing for the win, because that's the only way you can rank up.

I personally would prefer to have an occasional extra kill steal if it meant the system was actually a representation of your skill rather than based on your luck in matchmaking.


I should clarify that I do agree with the win = gain points and lose = lose points now. I just think that your performance in a match should affect the amount by which you gain and lose said points.



Tl;dr: people are going to be selfish anyway, I would rather have the occasional extra selfishness if it meant your rank actually represented your skill. Becasue what's the point in a personal rank otherwise?


Edit: by the way, this was entirely based around solo queuing.


Edit 2: I also don't think the difference of losing/gaining an extra point or two is going to affect people's mindsets that massively mid match. If you lose you're still going to rank down. It's just if you actually play well and lose you won't rank down quite as much. The way I imagine it would work wouldn't make an extra kill or two have that much effect either.

 

[Ajemsuhgao]

I don't really see a problem with how ranks are handled right now. Eventually you/the community will play enough to the point where everyone will be balanced out, and you'll actually be matched with similarly ranked players. You're getting matched with no ranks at the moment because of the small population, and the fact that it's only 4 days in I'm sure.

 

[User 73706]

I was playing Limbo the other day and my gf asked if it was a new Mario.

"The new dark and edgy next-gen mario everyone's been asking for" -IGNFormerSpotterGamer

 

[Caja 117]

You're always going to have that selfish metagame though. Having k/d ratios and KDA values be so prominent everywhere means people are going to be selfish and steal kills. You can see your kills and deaths mid game, it's immediate gratification if you steal that extra kill. I feel like k/d ratios have a far greater impact on people's split second decisions to be a team player or not, at least in solo play.

As for the close situation, I was more commenting on those clutch moments at the very end of a game. For the rest of the match, people are going to be selfish bastards either way because it means they'll have a higher k/d ratio. They'll have a more immediate reward. You aren't thinking about your rank mid match, you're thinking about winning and getting the most kills whilst doing so. Who cares if that guy dies, I'll have an extra kill.

Having a system which also takes into account your personal performance may mean a few extra moments of selfishness. However you're still going to be playing for the win, because that's the only way you can rank up.

I personally would prefer to have an occasional extra kill steal if it meant the system was actually a representation of your skill rather than based on your luck in matchmaking.


I should clarify that I do agree with the win = gain points and lose = lose points now. I just think that your performance in a match should affect the amount by which you gain and lose said points.



Tl;dr: people are going to be selfish anyway, I would rather have the occasional extra selfishness if it meant your rank actually represented your skill.

And what about ranking in objectyve gametypes?

 

[jem0208]

And what about ranking in objectyve gametypes?

You'd have to have a different system. Ranking would be much harder to do based on your performance and so I wouldn't really mind having it based on wins/losses. It's very easy to measure how well a player performed in a game of slayer. Not so easy in objective modes.

 

[Caja 117]

You'd have to have a different system. Ranking would be much harder to do based on your performance and so I wouldn't really mind having it based on wins/losses. It's very easy to measure how well a player performed in a game of slayer. Not so easy in objective modes.

You then will have two different ranking system in place which could be confusing if its a mixed gametype playlist like mlg.

But i guess you never played season 1 in arena for Reach?

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

So pretty much fuck solo players! Esports or get out!

Giving a good player motion tracker is like giving a major league baseball player a metal bat.

Giving a bad player motion tracker in this scenario provides no real benefit except leading them into bad positions. Without their movement being fed to the enemy player, they could surprise attack and be more effective.

I'll be on in like 30 minutes, anyone want to party up? GT is Unstable H2o.
I'm pro 2000.

Hello there beautiful.

Would you? If it's close and you want to min/max, then you'd rather make those last few kills steals, just in case?

I mean, there's some threshold at which you start playing in a degenerate way. Maybe it's a 10 point lead, maybe it's 5, and it's going to be different depending on the type of player you are. Some players lose hope a lot sooner than others. Do you want those players on your team losing hope at a 5 point deficit and switching to kill steal instead of assist mode?

Do you want this whole new selfish metagame worming its way into team slayer?

I'm not saying which way is right, I'm just pointing out what would happen, and what designers would ask themselves.

Oh, and thanks for having me

What about the degenerate playstyles from motion tracker? Are the benefits considered to outweigh the negatives?

From my experience, players tend to be especially selfish with motion tracker because if they see a pattern of people getting away as one-shots, frustration builds and they start chasing people into traps. It's impossible to gain control when players do that, and it happens on a frequent basis, so I feel that without radar gimping your movement, it could alleviate these issues for all players. Sound-based radar, for example, wouldn't give away your position from movement alone, but would still feed info to players where shooting occurs.

To what extent does motion tracker benefit players now that we have Spartan call outs? There's a lot of feedback to know where the action is, like teammates under fire and just being aware that if all your teammates are in one area, chances are the enemy is somewhere else by process of elimination. It's not difficult to think about, but it certainly can be if you've been dependent on motion tracker for a long time. Good thing though it doesn't take long to adapt without motion tracker, the change just has to be made first.

Trying my best to convey the importance of not gimping player movement now that Halo combat is so fast and fluid. It's counter-productive to the systems you guys have implemented imho.


Thanks for sticking around btw, we're all terrible human beans around here, friend :]

 

[VinFTW]

As it stands, Halo 5 is the most excited I've been for a MP game in a while and the most fun I've had in a MP game since Bad Company 2. It's so fun, and chasing those wins are addicting. It needs tweaks, for sure, but I think I may end up liking it more than Halo 3.

Spoiler

I may have had some drinks tonight

 

[jem0208]

You then will have two different ranking system in place which could be confusing if its a mixed gametype playlist like mlg.

But i guess you never played season 1 in arena for Reach?

Honestly, they wouldn't be that different. You're still gaining points for winning, you're still losing points for losing. It's just in slayer if you're the only one on your team who goes positive, you're going to lose less than the guy who gets no kills, and 15 deaths.

As it stands, Halo 5 is the most excited I've been for a MP game in a while and the most fun I've had in a MP game since Bad Company 2. It's so fun, and chasing those wins are addicting. It needs tweaks, for sure, but I think I may end up liking it more than Halo 3.

Spoiler

I may have had some drinks tonight

I will admit that it is very addicting to chase the wins. However it's also kinda frustrating when you know you've played really well and you're still punished massively.

 

[SalientOne]

FUNKNOWN, I just want to let you know that I respect the burning, white-hot passion with which you hate on the current radar system. Your unyielding scorn and fury is breathtaking in its singular focus.

You do make some good points too.

 

[Caja 117]

Honestly, they wouldn't be that different. You're still gaining points for winning, you're still losing points for losing. It's just in slayer if you're the only one on your team who goes positive, you're going to lose less than the guy who gets no kills, and 15 deaths.




I will admit that it is very addicting to chase the wins. However it's also kinda frustrating when you know you've played really well and you're still punished massively.

What if im the the support type? Which i dont die too much, but also dont get too many kills and get good amount of assist who should get more rank: someone that goes 20k 5a and 12D or someone that got 10k 12a and 5d?

 

[jem0208]

What if im the the support type? Which i dont die too much, but also dont get too many kills and get good amount of assist who should get more rank: someone that goes 20k 5a and 12D or someone that got 10k 12a and 5d?

I would personally weight assists and kills as exactly the same.

There's no more skill in pulling off the last headshot than the previous 3 or 4.

I have noticed that getting assists us very easy in 5 though so maybe make them slightly lower in importance.


Anyway, enough Halo discussion. I need sleep.

 

[RowdyReverb]

What if im the the support type? Which i dont die too much, but also dont get too many kills and get good amount of assist who should get more rank: someone that goes 20k 5a and 12D or someone that got 10k 12a and 5d?

In your KDA, Assists count as 1/3 of a kill. So in your example, the first guy would just barely edge out the second I assume.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

I would personally weight assists and kills as exactly the same.

There's no more skill in pulling off the last headshot than the previous 3 or 4.

I have noticed that getting assists us very easy in 5 though so maybe make them slightly lower in importance.


Anyway, enough Halo discussion. I need sleep.

This is the most asinine point I've ever seen. Of course it takes more skill to land concurrent shots, you need to be able to track your targets position, and keep the reticle on them, while avoiding incoming fire, for a meaningful amount of time. If you fail a duel, it's because you were not as skilled as your opponent.


I'm on btw guys if anyone needs another.

 

[Madness]

You think they tinkered with non-ADS game play in this game? Almost everyone I've spoken to, said they could live without the ADS. The Sprint showed they had it in use since 2013. Would it be tough for them to include classic zoom? Meaning the ADS animation doesn't start and when you try and zoom, you get the classic click/zoom?

Imagine a "classic" playlist at launch. No sprint, no Spartan abilities, no killcams, no ADS, faster base movement. I'd very much like to see how the game would play then. But the maps are created with sprint, clamber in mind. Would probably be weird without it.

 

[jem0208]

This is the most asinine point I've ever seen. Of course it takes more skill to land concurrent shots, you need to be able to track your targets position, and keep the reticle on them, while avoiding incoming fire, for a meaningful amount of time. If you fail a duel, it's because you were not as skilled as your opponent.

Huh?

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. If someone hits a guy 4 times and knocks his shield off then someone else swoops in for the headshot and gets the kill, I think the guy who got the assist deserves just as much if not more credit than the person who got the last shot off.

 

[Ramirez]

The game needs to avoid "classic" and MLG playlists.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

The game needs to avoid "classic" and MLG playlists.

now

and forever

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

Huh?

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. If someone hits a guy 4 times and knocks his shield off then someone else swoops in for the headshot and gets the kill, I think the guy who got the assist deserves just as much if not more credit than the person who got the last shot off.

Ok, i get what you're saying, but i think there's still a flaw in it, but it's still team play and though getting kills stolen is annoying, all that matters in the playlist is team performance

 

[Welfare]

The game needs to avoid "classic" and MLG playlists.

Why a classic playlist?

Hell, CoD AW has one.

 

[Fuchsdh]

The game needs to avoid "classic" and MLG playlists.

Why? I can understand MLG lists, because in the past they've been badly managed and tended to foster an animosity that was unnecessary, but what's wrong with a playlist with a more stripped-down set of gameplay options?

 

[Caja 117]

In your KDA, Assists count as 1/3 of a kill. So in your example, the first guy would just barely edge out the second I assume.

Thats correct, but you said yourself barely, so any other type of player will just sit down in a good spot and try to camp for assist, ideally you want someone in your team to put shots on anything that moves, but because this game is teamshooting orientated you also want someone to push in with you


I dont know, reach arena was just bad and i would not go close to any Ranking based on how many kills you got. Also if you cant win a game because one of your teamates, just get better so you can carry that teamate. I always blame myself for loosing a game if i get 22 kills and someone in my team went negative 14 , i think i should had gotten more kills and die less.

Btw, maybe not an MLG playlist, but at least a teamhardcore type of playlist, a ranked, no radar, faster based movent with slayer and objective mixed.

 

[Ramirez]

Because the game needs to pick an identity and stick with it, the same across all playlists.

Have faith in the decisions you've made, the MCC is there if you don't like the new additions.

 

[VinFTW]

The game needs to avoid "classic" and MLG playlists.

The game needs to be homogeneous. Pro/casual settings are all the same.

I agree with you. I hope they listen about settings/DLC maps.

 

[DeadNames]

After playing the beta, the following changes must occur:

grenades nerfed
AR nerfed
stupid teammates deleted

 

[Karl2177]

Have faith in the decisions you've made, the MCC is there if you don't like the new additions.

Well...

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

FUNKNOWN, I just want to let you know that I respect the burning, white-hot passion with which you hate on the current radar system. Your unyielding scorn and fury is breathtaking in its singular focus.

You do make some good points too.

Thank you, can't tell you how much I appreciate this post lol

Halo's the only franchise I'm this passionate about, so I apologize if my posts ever come off as aggressive. Glad to see the effort you guys are putting into Halo 5, seriously. It makes us like we have a voice when you guys are down in the mud with us, part of the communities.

 

[link1201]

Ranker is very smart. Thanks Ranker!

Yes, if his work is what is giving me all these tight matches he is.

 

[Caja 117]

Because the game needs to pick an identity and stick with it, the same across all playlists.

Have faith in the decisions you've made, the MCC is there if you don't like the new additions.

Agree with the first sentence, changing too much how it plays only segregate the population, thats why team hardcore in h2 was good.

 

[VinFTW]

FUNKNOWN, I just want to let you know that I respect the burning, white-hot passion with which you hate on the current radar system. Your unyielding scorn and fury is breathtaking in its singular focus.

You do make some good points too.

God damn, you're awesome.

I do think a Destiny like radar system would be nice. The casual crowd doesn't use it at all, the higher ups abuse it.

I'll tell you what though... I don't envy the decisions you have to make ahead of you.

 

[Forerunner]

God damn, you're awesome.

I do think a Destiny like radar system would be nice. The casual crowd doesn't use it at all, the higher ups abuse it.

I'll tell you what though... I don't envy the decisions you have to make ahead of you.

Destiny's radar is definitely an improvement to the standard radar most games use, it's one of the few things I really like about the pvp in that game.

 

[VinFTW]

Destiny's radar is definitely an improvement to the standard radar most games use, it's one of the few things I really like about the pvp in that game.

The ONLY thing I like about the PvP in that game.

 

[link1201]

I'm having a bunch of issues the last hour anyone else having issues getting into games?

 

[RowdyReverb]

Maybe they could reduce the weighting of unevenly matched games in performance? Just got docked 22 for sticking around to lose a 4v2. Unless maybe quitting is the preferred behavior in such scenarios?

 

[DeadNames]

Jesus fucking Christ I haven't won a game in about 10 games in a row. The teammates I'm getting paired with are so god damn stupid. What the hell? It must be rigged.

 

[VinFTW]

Jesus fucking Christ I haven't won a game in about 10 games in a row. The teammates I'm getting paired with are so god damn stupid. What the hell? It must be rigged.

Rank?

 

[DeadNames]

Rank?

I was tier 2 Bronze but I went down to tier 1 and I'm at the tail end of it.

Seriously, I get put with not one, but TWO morons who go like 1/16. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN??

 

[VinFTW]

I was tier 2 Bronze but I went down to tier 1 and I'm at the tail end of it.

Seriously, I get put with not one, but TWO morons who go like 1/16. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN??

I'm gonna play on my GF's GT, wanna play? What's your GT?

 

[DeadNames]

I'm gonna play on my GF's GT, wanna play? What's your GT?

Ugh dude, I don't know if I got another one in me. I already sent a rage message to a kid

My GT is the same as my gaf name: DeadNames, for future reference.

 

[VinFTW]

Ugh dude, I don't know if I got another one in me. I already sent a rage message to a kid

My GT is the same as my gaf name: DeadNames, for future reference.

Alright mang, I'll add you, take a break, regroup, we'll fuck shit up tomorrow or the next day. We'll get you out of Bronze for sure.

 

[RowdyReverb]

I was tier 2 Bronze but I went down to tier 1 and I'm at the tail end of it.

Seriously, I get put with not one, but TWO morons who go like 1/16. HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN??

If they keep it up, they'll attain Iron rank and you won't play with them again (in a perfect world)

 

[Caja 117]

Maybe they could reduce the weighting of unevenly matched games in performance? Just got docked 22 for sticking around to lose a 4v2. Unless maybe quitting is the preferred behavior in such scenarios?

I do agree with that, a lesser penalty if you have a teamate quiting before the other team reach 10/15 kills.

 

[DeadNames]

If they keep it up, they'll attain Iron rank and you won't play with them again (in a perfect work)

I dunno dude. I've been paired with all kinds of ranks. Golds, Silvers, Bronzes, irons, and even an onyx one time.