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Halo |OT 23| Thruster is Love, Thruster is Life


Well myself and the group I play with nightly disagree. Most everyone I play with prefer the additions in 4. But I know that opinion is super unpopular here. Which is fine, I've gotten plenty of enjoyment out of the game.

Edit: Excluding boltshot of course. Everyone hates that fucking thing.
 

singhr1

Member
I had a feeling that's how the campaign will play out. I think Locke and Arbiter will be the early playable characters.

Maybe it will be like ODST where its Locke and his squad + Arbiter finding evidence of Master Chief's presence and then you cut to Master Chief and play the sequence that got him to that point.
 

Impala26

Member
Maybe it will be like ODST where its Locke and his squad + Arbiter finding evidence of Master Chief's presence and then you cut to Master Chief and play the sequence that got him to that point.

Would be great if it were actually structured like this, yeah!
 

Akai__

Member
We could get a Halo block at SGDQ. Halo CE, Halo 2 and Halo 4 all made it through the 1st cut.

Hope they make it through the other cuts, because speedruns are awesome.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
What I find most puzzling is why Saber is using the Halo 3 engine... they worked with CE and Halo 2, both of which had existing PC ports. Seems like a lot of extra work.

Looks cool though. Armor is very interesting—feels like a mishmash of Halo 3 and 4 armor styles.

Maybe it will be like ODST where its Locke and his squad + Arbiter finding evidence of Master Chief's presence and then you cut to Master Chief and play the sequence that got him to that point.

Only issue I see with that is much of the appeal came from the fact that you could do it out of order if you wanted—for a very linear flashback sequence following a single character it could be really awkward. Not to mention the whole flashback sequence never really made sense as the Rookie "investigating"—if the idea is Locke would be following clues left behind, they'd have to be a lot more explicit than "oh, biofoam. No one else could have used that!"
 

HTupolev

Member
To be sure, but just as you can't polish a turd, giving a fresh 1080p polish to the wrong game would probably shine a light on average graphics. This thing looks so damn solid. And clean.
Dat eighth-gen shading on sixth-gen assets and geometry budget.

I think Halo 3's screenshots are 4K with the screenshot tool and they are downsampled to 1080p afterwards.
With the OG screenshot utility, yes. In many ways it's actually substantially higher-quality than Halo 3 MCC; it's got 4xOGSSAA, object LOD is adjusted for the higher res, there's some AF, and bloom is switched from bilinear scaling to a much smoother implementation.

Unfortunately, the 360 also compresses the result into a low-quality jpeg. And you can't even use a capture card to grab the image as it's being tiled in; what's displayed on-screen is a low-resolution re-scaled version of the internal image, even if your console is set to output 1080p.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
CE and Halo 2 speedruns are really fun to watch. Hopefully they make it.

They're all great, but I think the earlier games benefit partially from less invisible walls/obstacles, and a pure function of time—people are still figuring out ways to shave time and optimize runs on those old games, and they've found tons of ways to speed things up over the years.
 
Well myself and the group I play with nightly disagree. Most everyone I play with prefer the additions in 4. But I know that opinion is super unpopular here. Which is fine, I've gotten plenty of enjoyment out of the game.

Edit: Excluding boltshot of course. Everyone hates that fucking thing.
The only thing I really liked about Halo 4 MP was Thruster Pack. That's about it. Throwdown was good. Never played Ricochete before. Halo 4 was pretty bare bones to begin with honestly. Post launch was great I guess.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
The only thing I really liked about Halo 4 MP was Thruster Pack. That's about it. Throwdown was good. Never played Ricochet before. Halo 4 was pretty bare bones to begin with honestly. Post launch was great I guess.

You missed a great game mode. Hope we see it in H5.
 

nillapuddin

Member
guess some ppl already playing?
ea6aeb0b-ef1f-478d-ba3e-3ba694b3cd89.png
didnt see posted in other thread, derp
 

Impala26

Member
Hey, anyone who missed out on our Halo GAF raid of the Vault of Glass--looking at you Kittens, RBK, Mix (RIP) and others--a couple of us were looking to do another run tomorrow night. All skill levels would be welcome.

We're looking for like a 7/8pm EST start time. Just reply here or PM me. My GT on Live is my GAF name, Impala26. Would love to get other raid newbs through their first time.
 
The only thing I really liked about Halo 4 MP was Thruster Pack. That's about it. Throwdown was good. Never played Ricochete before. Halo 4 was pretty bare bones to begin with honestly. Post launch was great I guess.

Yeah it certainly got way better with the update. Random ordinance was never a good idea, and it took a stupid amount of time to get red X's back. But that's always been a Halo thing, 2 and Reach both improved leagues with updates and 4 is no different.
 
Most fun I had on halo 4
That comeback from the other night though. Had a lot of laughs, can't believe we actually won some of those games after the NEG BOMBS of our teammates hahah

Steps to carrying teammates who put up amazing numbers of -21:
  1. Attach yourself to their hip.
  2. Step in front to take enemy bullets.
  3. Pray for the best.
  4. #NoMotionTracker
Who said you couldn't have fun with poor teammates? Just need to accept the loss before the game finishes and move onto the next, 'tis the life of a Halo fan.

BUT should you win... ohhhh should you winnnn, those feels will be great.
 

daedalius

Member
Hey, anyone who missed out on our Halo GAF raid of the Vault of Glass--looking at you Kittens, RBK, Mix (RIP) and others--a couple of us were looking to do another run tomorrow night. All skill levels would be welcome.

We're looking for like a 7/8pm EST start time. Just reply here or PM me. My GT on Live is my GAF name, Impala26. Would love to get other raid newbs through their first time.

I might be available at 8est, I'll try to be around but don't count on it.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Yeah. With good teams it's really fun. Only played it to get those achievements in H4 and in doing so, really liked the game mode. Haven't played it in MCC yet. Don't know if it's even in H2A.

It's in there. Sadly people don't vote for it.

HCS Extraction too, hopefully.

Ah, forgot about Extraction.

Really I liked all the new modes 343 added in Halo 4. Had they just been additive instead of removing options from customs or losing assym objective I think a lot of people would have been sweeter on it.
 

mcrommert

Banned
Hey, anyone who missed out on our Halo GAF raid of the Vault of Glass--looking at you Kittens, RBK, Mix (RIP) and others--a couple of us were looking to do another run tomorrow night. All skill levels would be welcome.

We're looking for like a 7/8pm EST start time. Just reply here or PM me. My GT on Live is my GAF name, Impala26. Would love to get other raid newbs through their first time.

Pencil me in....rebelcrusader
 

Computron

Member
Dat eighth-gen shading on sixth-gen assets and geometry budget.


With the OG screenshot utility, yes. In many ways it's actually substantially higher-quality than Halo 3 MCC; it's got 4xOGSSAA, object LOD is adjusted for the higher res, there's some AF, and bloom is switched from bilinear scaling to a much smoother implementation.

Unfortunately, the 360 also compresses the result into a low-quality jpeg. And you can't even use a capture card to grab the image as it's being tiled in; what's displayed on-screen is a low-resolution re-scaled version of the internal image, even if your console is set to output 1080p.

They were pushing more out of the normal maps in Halo 3 then the meager 640p resolution was suited for.

3D artists are typically told to fatten up the edge widths more on hard surface models than would be realistic on the real prop because the edges show up better on the normal map (and eventually the screen) when you model the prop with wider radius edges. The reasoning being that there are more pixels with varying normals in the bitmap and thus mip-mapping and uv seams dont eat as much into your normal map, (since that is exactly where your most important normal data is, on the edges where there are frequently UV seams. And it's particularly bad with hard surface assets back in the day where you often have to fight against the errors of an unsynced normal tangent basis between your baker and your renderer. you still have to fight it today with some popular renderers such as unity and unreal up until lately )

For Halo 3 they did things pretty sharp for some reason, I guess they weren't all that used to the HD era and producing assets for it going from the xbox.
Its a craft after all, and this kinda trick is learned from experience creating assets and seeing how they look when finally rendered on screen.

A side effect is that now on the xbox one the armor models are really nice and high res looking in a lot of places and there is enough resolution for the sharper edges in the normal maps to shine. plus there is actual antialiasing to smooth over the UV seams that are everywhere on hard surface models.

I mean, look at the edges of some of the armor in this pic:
Screenshot-Original%204_zpsznmbnnz5.png

Some of the specular glints you see off of the edges are maybe a pixel or two wide in 1080p even with AA and AF working in their favor.

On the 360, they may as well have not had made the high poly models and baked normals from them since the edges are modeled so thin that they barely show up. I always wondered how they ended up shipping it like that in Halo 3. They obviously had high poly models they worked on for weeks, and yet the normal maps practically don't show up on that aliasy final image, especially with its lack of decent Anisotropic filtering. seems like a wasted effort up until now, but it looks awesome on the xbone. I wonder if they were targeting a 720p+ final image when they were making those assets? early 360 dev hardware might have seemed more capable than what they ended up with.

Reach and Halo 4 were quite a bit better in this regard with normal mapped assets modeled in a much better suited way. Halo 1 anniversary campaign had some chunky ass edges, looked great.
 

HTupolev

Member
They were pushing more out of the normal maps in Halo 3 then the meager 640p resolution was suited for.
Definitely not just an issue of targeting a higher resolution and then downgrading; where things get really bonkers, as you noted yourself, they're not resolved perfectly even at much higher resolutions.

To some degree I think you're slightly exaggerating the extent to which small details aren't captured on some surfaces. For instance, on the spartan models, most of those fine lines do get represented even from a bit of distance in the original game, albeit with substantial aliasing (either it's fine geometry or they're undersampling the normal map and/or its shaded response).

There are definitely some surfaces where the detail goes through clear mipmap transitions right up until you're stopping to smell the vertices, though. Drones are a particular standout given how vibrant their shading is. Obviously it's most visible with rich high-frequency patterns sprawled across a broad surface. In these cases it often falls into the realm of detail textures and maybe (I have no idea) wasn't too costly in either development or memory?

Partly maybe it was just that they hadn't really worked out a modern workflow yet... although it could be argued that Bungie should have been ahead of the curve given that they were basically the industry real-time implementation leaders in combining high-quality bump with expressive shading in 2001.

Part of it might have been that in the occasional instances where both the normal texture itself and the texturing+shading are resolving the fine details correctly, the results from the Halo 3 shading model can look extremely cool for anyone who stops for some sightseeing. i.e. "this is hilarious tacky but let's let it slide because WOW."
 

Computron

Member
Definitely not just an issue of targeting a higher resolution and then downgrading; where things get really bonkers, as you noted yourself, they're not resolved perfectly even at much higher resolutions.

To some degree I think you're slightly exaggerating the extent to which small details aren't captured on some surfaces. For instance, on the spartan models, most of those fine lines do get represented even from a bit of distance in the original game, albeit with substantial aliasing (either it's fine geometry or they're undersampling the normal map and/or its shaded response).

Probably. Some of the armor in particular that I would look at constantly (since thats all you got to do when your dead on the ground, waiting to respawn) really sticks out in my mind as being particularly bad on 360 yet really good looking on the xbone. like on the 360, it would look like mostly flat, low polygon models that look like they dont even have normal maps applied to them in large sections. Other armor sets can look pretty good when you much closer to other players than you would typically ever get or maybe if your looking at cutscenes up close.

The thing is, as someone who does a lot of hard surface modeling and is constantly having to deal with this issue, i'm probably far more sensitive to it than most. When you spend weeks making a perfect high poly model and you end up with a shitty normal map bake that barely registers on screen, because you model your edges too tight for the resolution/renderer-AA/AF to pick up, it stings a little. especially when you compare the high poly to the final in-game bake side-by-side and can see all the detail that is completely lost. phat bevels is practically a meme at this point among hard surface modelers.
 

Nebula

Member
I wish Halo 4 was 30 FPS so it can run smoothly. It looks great at 60 but in BTB it runs well below that a majority of the time. Also patch vehicle debris so it sits around for longer than 2 seconds. While I'm at it, ban plasma pistols from loadouts.

Thanks in advance.
 
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