Since there isn't a ranking system in place as of today does that mean you're quitting?
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Halo |OT10| The Calm Before The Storm
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Since there isn't a ranking system in place as of today does that mean you're quitting?
This is like the 6th time I've said this to people. I don't care that much about a visual ranking system, sure I'd like it, but all I want is a system that matches people together according to their skill. And seeing as that has been neither confirmed or denied, no.
Anyway, why would I stop posting on HaloGAF? I lurk/post on forums for games that I don't even have, like Guild Wars 2.
I also don't really care about forge, I never use it and as long as the maps aren't implemented in all matchmaking playlists, it doesn't affect me. I also don't see what all the fuss about theatre is, so what if you can't go in with friends, just record the clip/film and send it to them so they can watch it.
Steelyuhas
Member
Zeouterlimits
Member
The Arbiter has a fairly relevant catchphrase.
User 73706
Banned
"I'm going to cut it."
AllIsOneIsNone
Banned
Every time you say "there isn't a ranking system" in regards to Halo 4, somewhere a young lass named Talents loses some drywall.
What a cop out, man. Be a man.
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
Yes, we will be matching people together according to their skill. It will be factored in far more than it ever was in Reach. Don't think I'm spilling secrets to say that Reach prioritized matching based on connection speed with skill levels a lower priority to ensure fast matching.
Because of our more focused playlist offerings (which we're planning to update more frequently than previous games) our player pool will be much larger per playlist which should provide more consistent matching by skill AND connection speed.
Thoughts about rank salt:
After letting myself cool off a bit (I know lol, I am a big nerd when it comes to ranks and competitive stuff like this) I have thought it over and it might not be so bad. Granted, this in no way is me saying that I don't want visible skill based ranks in Halo 4. I would absolutely love to have visible ranks in halo 4, however, Frankie's posts definitely seem to emphasize we will be matched up against equally skilled opponents. Assuming the worst (as we don't know for sure what is going on with skill based rank, visible or invisible) and that skill based rank is invisible, there could be some unforeseen (at least to me) benefits to the halo multiplayer experience.
1. Matchmaking less segmented
Due to not having visible ranks playlists would not need to have duplicates or twins. In halo 3 there was a team slayer and social slayer which split the population. Now due to halo 3's success a split population was not a problem, but regardless the more people you can funnel into a playlist the better. Quality of matches become better and search times are shorter when a playlist is highly populated.
2. Matchmaking is a more social experience
I don't mean this in the casual sense either. With no visible ranks people are more willing to enter a playlist with close friends that might not be very good as there is no pressure to constantly win. This in turn can make the game more enjoyable as certain anxieties and stresses are taken away from the game. Also, because everyone is matched according to skill, in theory, games will always be even anyway because the other team will have a player that is the same level of skill as your friend. (this likelihood increases due to the fact players are not boosting to get high ranks)
3. Halotracker 1-50 will actually mean something now
Now that people are matched against each other based on stringent (hopefully) skill parameters, halotracker's 1-50 will resemble the h2/3 rank system. In reach a player could get a 50 in halotracker by winning, the only problem being that the player could be beating lower skilled people on the way to that 50. If the invisible skill based rank system works players will have to constantly beat people at their own skill level much like halo 3/2's rank system.
4.Less prejudgment in pre-game lobbies
In halo 3 players could look at their teammates and opposing player’s service records to gauge what their skill level was. If a player thought there teammates were good, things were fine, however, if the opposite was true things could get dicey. For instance many a times on my run to a 50 in team slayer I would encounter players that were a higher skill level than me who told me to not pick up sniper, and assign me to scrub duty, something like go pick up overshield. (all because I was a brig grade 2, which at the time many 50's considered brigs to be "Bad") Other times my team would outright lose at the beginning because two players got into an argument about who was better and who "rightfully" deserved the sniper. Granted this happens in reach as well but with visible ranks these debates were much more polarized and heated.
The next part of this post is to talk about visible skill based rank systems in Halo 3 onward in a broad sense, more specifically speaking about the problems that arise from such a system. Finally, I have proposed a solution which was inspired by Frankie earlier this year.
Disclaimer: I know that we are not sure whether 343i is done with the issue of visible skill based rank systems. This post is made in the event of the possible situation that they have decided not to include them in Halo 4.
What was actually wrong with halo 3 ranks.
People can complain that a skill based rank progression system is flawed. People can moan about how it wasn't fair that it was possible to be "rank locked". (which in reality was a fantasy, I know this personally from ranking up so called rank locked accounts) The one and only problem with halo 3 ranks was the fact it was tied into the xp military ranks. The fact that a player could not get the highest xp rank if they were not a 50 was a slap in the face to many a casual gamer. The people that didn't care about how good they were or how they stacked up against the "best players" were forced into ranked matchmaking as they attempted to get that next highest xp military rank. While this was good for the ranked portion of matchmaking as it gave competitive players more people to play, in the long run it might end up being the thing that killed visible rank systems in Halo.
This in the end is why boosting and specifically account buying was so prevalent in halo 3. Most players did not want the 50, they could have cared less. What they wanted was that general emblem next to their name. They knew if they had the 50 they could eventually achieve the general by playing social gametypes. There is a bigger reason to why players wanted to have that general.
Star of David dilemma
A player that had a 21 and did not have the ability or desire to rank up any further had a problem. As the player gained more xp his military rank would only increase by grades. Grade 1, 2, 3 and finally the max rank possible for the skill based level achieved, in this case a staff captain. This player we will call Joe now only plays social. Joe doesn’t care about playing competitively anymore and just wants to have a good time playing with some of his buds. The problem is sometimes when he goes into a social slayer game he gets heckled by higher skill players. They see his service record and what his max military rank is and start pulling out the cliché bar and staff captain jokes. Before the game even starts his teammates and the other team (if they have higher level players) are already laughing at the fact this player is even still playing halo. (The nature of social playlists is less stringent skill setting so players of mixed skills often play with each other.) During the game Joe is criticized for dying too much, attempts to use any skill based power weapon are met with more criticism and in the end the game isn't very fun for Joe. Granted this account is dramatized for effect but situations like this did happen in Halo 3, at least in my own personal experience. In the end Joe is frustrated and might think to himself if only I had that colonel or commander, maybe I could play a game without being heckled constantly in pre and post-game lobbies.
Summary of Star of David dilemma: Having skill based rank tied to xp rank instantly brands players as good or bad. Imagine if in society we had to wear a huge sign on our chest stating if we were low, middle or upper class; whether we were employed or unemployed, or finally what are IQ test scores were. Wouldn't you think a lot more about where you walked or ventured to, to avoid public embarrassment? I know I might not try to attend a good school if everyone that saw me knew I was the dumbest guy there. How could someone enjoy life like that having to be self-conscious about who they were 24/7? A video game is a lot different than real life, true, but aren't video games supposed to be fun? In certain instances visible skill based rank can detract from that fun, EVEN for people that don't care about said visible skill based ranks.
Halo Reach: What it did right and wrong
What Reach did right
Bungie recognized the problem with visible skill based ranks. In Reach they attempted to right these wrongs in order to provide the best possible experience for all players. Bungie's recognition can be seen in Halo 3's second title update where they attempted to give all players the ability to reach a general in a specific playlist. (By doing this they also forced a person's military rank into their service record which had the intended or unintended effect of hiding that person's Star of David so to speak.) In Reach Bungie also made sure that xp rank was not tied to skill based rank or arena. Now the player had the ability to reach the max rank as long as he/she puts in the needed amount of time.
What Reach did wrong
Arena or the visible skill based rank system was forced into two or three playlists. Instead of forcing casuals to play ranked it forced competitive players into a small very specific playlist. Ranked team snipers, swat, objective and squad battle never surfaced as ranked playlists. FFA and doubles were ranked for a select amount of time only to be retired later in Halo Reach's lifespan. Competitive players in a sense had their options reduced to one playlist only. Players that succeeded in arena also received little to no reward for their efforts. Arena placing’s were effectively buried in the deepest recesses of the Halo Reach service record. What good is it to win something and not have the ability to show it off?
Imagine what happens to a team that wins the super bowl in the NFL. The winner gets a trophy, players get individual rings, the team name gets written down in the history books, and the team gets a banner to hang in their stadium (a banner mind you that every other opposing team gets to see when they play in the winner's home stadium). Now imagine that the super bowl is not televised (or a part of public knowledge), the winner doesn't get a trophy, a banner or even a mention in the history books. How do you think that team feels? Sure they get the personal satisfaction for winning but other than that pretty much they and the opposing team are the only ones that know of the winning team's accomplishment. Wouldn't it seem kind of empty?
Lately in the halo series middle ground has been hard to come by in regards to visible skill based ranks. Both sides view the situation in terms of a zero sum game, where if one side benefits the other one will be hurt, or vice versa. What if this thinking just isn't true and there is a solution that could appease all parties?
A solution to appease all sides
I believe Frankie was on the right track in suggesting a skill based rank only visible to the player. However, what if there was a way to make it visible to anyone that wanted to see it?
The following three options would be available in the Halo 4 infinity options menu:
1.(Yes or No) Show your skill based rank to others.
2.(Yes or No) See others skill based ranks.
3.(Yes or No) See your own skill based rank.
1. Yes If you answer yes to option 1 your skill based rank will be displayed on your UI card in all war games lobbies. Your rank will also be shown in your service record as well.
No If you answer no to option 1 your skill based rank will be hidden. Other players will not be able to view or see your skill based rank in lobbies or your service record. The skill based rank will be hidden to everyone. (Save yourself if you choose to see it or not later)
2. Yes If you answer yes to option 2 you will be able to see other people's skill based ranks ONLY if they (other players) have answered yes to option 1. Meaning if you choose to see other's ranks you cannot see a person's rank if that person has elected to not make their skill based rank visible.
No If you answer no to option 2 you will not see other people's skill based ranks EVEN if they make their own ranks visible. The player will not see opposing player's ranks in the lobby and if they look in their service record the visible skill based rank will not be displayed.
3. Yes If you answer yes to option 3 you will be able to see your skill based rank. Your rank will be displayed in a private part of your service record that only you have access to. This option has no bearing on whether or not others can see your rank. (Option 1 is the one that controls that event)
No If you answer no to option 3 you will not be able to see your skill based rank. It will not be shown anywhere, including the private part of your service record.
The above solution gives players complete control on how they choose to view and show off skill based ranks. If a player is hyper competitive and wants to show off and see his and other's ranks he can answer yes to all three options. If another player doesn't care at all about ranks he can elect to say no to every option and he will never have to see his or other's ranks. If a player is self-conscious about their rank they can elect to see their own rank and at the same time choose not to show it off to other players.
This solution in a way mimics real life. A rich person can show off how wealthy they are by driving an expensive car or wearing an expensive suit. A poor person can rent a nice suit or car for a day if they need to apply for a job or attend a nice event. (I know I didn't own the suit and bowtie I used for prom) In essence players are not forced or told what they can show off about themselves in the game and are allowed to avoid as much judgment as possible. Of course a rich person or poor person can tell if a suit is rented or not. The same can be said in Halo where a good player or bad player can be spotted by stats or playstlye. What this solution does, however, is avoid the scenario where players are judged before they even have a chance to prove themselves on the virtual battlefield.
I understand if this solution cannot be implemented in Halo 4. I also understand that 343i is not obligated to implement a visible skill based rank system ever, in any future halo game. As a competitive player and fan of the franchise I would like to ask them to reconsider if they have decided to not implement a visible skill based rank system.
After letting myself cool off a bit (I know lol, I am a big nerd when it comes to ranks and competitive stuff like this) I have thought it over and it might not be so bad. Granted, this in no way is me saying that I don't want visible skill based ranks in Halo 4. I would absolutely love to have visible ranks in halo 4, however, Frankie's posts definitely seem to emphasize we will be matched up against equally skilled opponents. Assuming the worst (as we don't know for sure what is going on with skill based rank, visible or invisible) and that skill based rank is invisible, there could be some unforeseen (at least to me) benefits to the halo multiplayer experience.
1. Matchmaking less segmented
Due to not having visible ranks playlists would not need to have duplicates or twins. In halo 3 there was a team slayer and social slayer which split the population. Now due to halo 3's success a split population was not a problem, but regardless the more people you can funnel into a playlist the better. Quality of matches become better and search times are shorter when a playlist is highly populated.
2. Matchmaking is a more social experience
I don't mean this in the casual sense either. With no visible ranks people are more willing to enter a playlist with close friends that might not be very good as there is no pressure to constantly win. This in turn can make the game more enjoyable as certain anxieties and stresses are taken away from the game. Also, because everyone is matched according to skill, in theory, games will always be even anyway because the other team will have a player that is the same level of skill as your friend. (this likelihood increases due to the fact players are not boosting to get high ranks)
3. Halotracker 1-50 will actually mean something now
Now that people are matched against each other based on stringent (hopefully) skill parameters, halotracker's 1-50 will resemble the h2/3 rank system. In reach a player could get a 50 in halotracker by winning, the only problem being that the player could be beating lower skilled people on the way to that 50. If the invisible skill based rank system works players will have to constantly beat people at their own skill level much like halo 3/2's rank system.
4.Less prejudgment in pre-game lobbies
In halo 3 players could look at their teammates and opposing player’s service records to gauge what their skill level was. If a player thought there teammates were good, things were fine, however, if the opposite was true things could get dicey. For instance many a times on my run to a 50 in team slayer I would encounter players that were a higher skill level than me who told me to not pick up sniper, and assign me to scrub duty, something like go pick up overshield. (all because I was a brig grade 2, which at the time many 50's considered brigs to be "Bad") Other times my team would outright lose at the beginning because two players got into an argument about who was better and who "rightfully" deserved the sniper. Granted this happens in reach as well but with visible ranks these debates were much more polarized and heated.
The next part of this post is to talk about visible skill based rank systems in Halo 3 onward in a broad sense, more specifically speaking about the problems that arise from such a system. Finally, I have proposed a solution which was inspired by Frankie earlier this year.
Disclaimer: I know that we are not sure whether 343i is done with the issue of visible skill based rank systems. This post is made in the event of the possible situation that they have decided not to include them in Halo 4.
What was actually wrong with halo 3 ranks.
People can complain that a skill based rank progression system is flawed. People can moan about how it wasn't fair that it was possible to be "rank locked". (which in reality was a fantasy, I know this personally from ranking up so called rank locked accounts) The one and only problem with halo 3 ranks was the fact it was tied into the xp military ranks. The fact that a player could not get the highest xp rank if they were not a 50 was a slap in the face to many a casual gamer. The people that didn't care about how good they were or how they stacked up against the "best players" were forced into ranked matchmaking as they attempted to get that next highest xp military rank. While this was good for the ranked portion of matchmaking as it gave competitive players more people to play, in the long run it might end up being the thing that killed visible rank systems in Halo.
This in the end is why boosting and specifically account buying was so prevalent in halo 3. Most players did not want the 50, they could have cared less. What they wanted was that general emblem next to their name. They knew if they had the 50 they could eventually achieve the general by playing social gametypes. There is a bigger reason to why players wanted to have that general.
Star of David dilemma
A player that had a 21 and did not have the ability or desire to rank up any further had a problem. As the player gained more xp his military rank would only increase by grades. Grade 1, 2, 3 and finally the max rank possible for the skill based level achieved, in this case a staff captain. This player we will call Joe now only plays social. Joe doesn’t care about playing competitively anymore and just wants to have a good time playing with some of his buds. The problem is sometimes when he goes into a social slayer game he gets heckled by higher skill players. They see his service record and what his max military rank is and start pulling out the cliché bar and staff captain jokes. Before the game even starts his teammates and the other team (if they have higher level players) are already laughing at the fact this player is even still playing halo. (The nature of social playlists is less stringent skill setting so players of mixed skills often play with each other.) During the game Joe is criticized for dying too much, attempts to use any skill based power weapon are met with more criticism and in the end the game isn't very fun for Joe. Granted this account is dramatized for effect but situations like this did happen in Halo 3, at least in my own personal experience. In the end Joe is frustrated and might think to himself if only I had that colonel or commander, maybe I could play a game without being heckled constantly in pre and post-game lobbies.
Summary of Star of David dilemma: Having skill based rank tied to xp rank instantly brands players as good or bad. Imagine if in society we had to wear a huge sign on our chest stating if we were low, middle or upper class; whether we were employed or unemployed, or finally what are IQ test scores were. Wouldn't you think a lot more about where you walked or ventured to, to avoid public embarrassment? I know I might not try to attend a good school if everyone that saw me knew I was the dumbest guy there. How could someone enjoy life like that having to be self-conscious about who they were 24/7? A video game is a lot different than real life, true, but aren't video games supposed to be fun? In certain instances visible skill based rank can detract from that fun, EVEN for people that don't care about said visible skill based ranks.
Halo Reach: What it did right and wrong
What Reach did right
Bungie recognized the problem with visible skill based ranks. In Reach they attempted to right these wrongs in order to provide the best possible experience for all players. Bungie's recognition can be seen in Halo 3's second title update where they attempted to give all players the ability to reach a general in a specific playlist. (By doing this they also forced a person's military rank into their service record which had the intended or unintended effect of hiding that person's Star of David so to speak.) In Reach Bungie also made sure that xp rank was not tied to skill based rank or arena. Now the player had the ability to reach the max rank as long as he/she puts in the needed amount of time.
What Reach did wrong
Arena or the visible skill based rank system was forced into two or three playlists. Instead of forcing casuals to play ranked it forced competitive players into a small very specific playlist. Ranked team snipers, swat, objective and squad battle never surfaced as ranked playlists. FFA and doubles were ranked for a select amount of time only to be retired later in Halo Reach's lifespan. Competitive players in a sense had their options reduced to one playlist only. Players that succeeded in arena also received little to no reward for their efforts. Arena placing’s were effectively buried in the deepest recesses of the Halo Reach service record. What good is it to win something and not have the ability to show it off?
Imagine what happens to a team that wins the super bowl in the NFL. The winner gets a trophy, players get individual rings, the team name gets written down in the history books, and the team gets a banner to hang in their stadium (a banner mind you that every other opposing team gets to see when they play in the winner's home stadium). Now imagine that the super bowl is not televised (or a part of public knowledge), the winner doesn't get a trophy, a banner or even a mention in the history books. How do you think that team feels? Sure they get the personal satisfaction for winning but other than that pretty much they and the opposing team are the only ones that know of the winning team's accomplishment. Wouldn't it seem kind of empty?
Lately in the halo series middle ground has been hard to come by in regards to visible skill based ranks. Both sides view the situation in terms of a zero sum game, where if one side benefits the other one will be hurt, or vice versa. What if this thinking just isn't true and there is a solution that could appease all parties?
A solution to appease all sides
I believe Frankie was on the right track in suggesting a skill based rank only visible to the player. However, what if there was a way to make it visible to anyone that wanted to see it?
The following three options would be available in the Halo 4 infinity options menu:
1.(Yes or No) Show your skill based rank to others.
2.(Yes or No) See others skill based ranks.
3.(Yes or No) See your own skill based rank.
1. Yes If you answer yes to option 1 your skill based rank will be displayed on your UI card in all war games lobbies. Your rank will also be shown in your service record as well.
No If you answer no to option 1 your skill based rank will be hidden. Other players will not be able to view or see your skill based rank in lobbies or your service record. The skill based rank will be hidden to everyone. (Save yourself if you choose to see it or not later)
2. Yes If you answer yes to option 2 you will be able to see other people's skill based ranks ONLY if they (other players) have answered yes to option 1. Meaning if you choose to see other's ranks you cannot see a person's rank if that person has elected to not make their skill based rank visible.
No If you answer no to option 2 you will not see other people's skill based ranks EVEN if they make their own ranks visible. The player will not see opposing player's ranks in the lobby and if they look in their service record the visible skill based rank will not be displayed.
3. Yes If you answer yes to option 3 you will be able to see your skill based rank. Your rank will be displayed in a private part of your service record that only you have access to. This option has no bearing on whether or not others can see your rank. (Option 1 is the one that controls that event)
No If you answer no to option 3 you will not be able to see your skill based rank. It will not be shown anywhere, including the private part of your service record.
The above solution gives players complete control on how they choose to view and show off skill based ranks. If a player is hyper competitive and wants to show off and see his and other's ranks he can answer yes to all three options. If another player doesn't care at all about ranks he can elect to say no to every option and he will never have to see his or other's ranks. If a player is self-conscious about their rank they can elect to see their own rank and at the same time choose not to show it off to other players.
This solution in a way mimics real life. A rich person can show off how wealthy they are by driving an expensive car or wearing an expensive suit. A poor person can rent a nice suit or car for a day if they need to apply for a job or attend a nice event. (I know I didn't own the suit and bowtie I used for prom) In essence players are not forced or told what they can show off about themselves in the game and are allowed to avoid as much judgment as possible. Of course a rich person or poor person can tell if a suit is rented or not. The same can be said in Halo where a good player or bad player can be spotted by stats or playstlye. What this solution does, however, is avoid the scenario where players are judged before they even have a chance to prove themselves on the virtual battlefield.
I understand if this solution cannot be implemented in Halo 4. I also understand that 343i is not obligated to implement a visible skill based rank system ever, in any future halo game. As a competitive player and fan of the franchise I would like to ask them to reconsider if they have decided to not implement a visible skill based rank system.
Wow, you see that is all I needed to pre-order the game, for someone to say if people were matched according to their skill. Brb going to pre-order the game.
Steelyuhas
Member
A skill based ranking system would be lovely, really hoping Frankie clarifies soon.
Speaking of soon, can't wait for the BTS. Hoping for it sometime today. Plllease
So how will I know that I am being matched up with players on a similar skill level as myself? Do I just have to believe its there like I was told in Reach?
When you're going 14-10 instead of 29-3, you'll know.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Gabotron ES
Member
STAHP
Demoncarnotaur
Member
Honestly? No. But I would have liked to see Forge evolve just a bit more, thats for sure. It already is suffering in a few ways.
This sounds good, but I don't think anyone doubted MM would incorporate skill into how it matches players. This still doesn't address what players want out of Ranked MM though (to be fair I have been more of a social slayer guy anyways, but thats not to say I didn't enjoy ranks a lot). I am glad to hear that it has been improved though. BTW, any chance a 'pair with users with DLC first' criteria was added? I would absolutely love if DLC got way better exposure compared to past titles.
GodlyPerfection
Member
This sounds exciting... *cracks knuckles*
I don't even want to look. I am hiding in here until November 6th or until some suicide junior decides to TDKR it.
There aren't any spoilers in the leaked thread right?
Fake edit: My bad Gabo :/
Reagan's BR
Banned
This thread slowed to a crawl for a bit and now it is going way too fast.
There were earlier, but they've moved on. They were tagged.
The current topic appears to be graphics wars lol. Oh well, there's not really much to talk about regarding the leak.
Haha, everyone that said they were going dark came back like 2 hours later.
You don't just leave HaloGAF...
Reagan's BR
Banned
ZooJoos.
FUNKNOWN iXi
Member
ViewtifulJC
Banned
holy shit, Barlow is the new ZooJoo
zing!
Reagan's BR
Banned
I never said I slowed to a crawl. This is my 1v1 against ZooJoos; I post and don't get banned.
But I want numbers :-0
Yep.
BackdoorBeauty
Member
The truth comes out.
Also glad to hear a meaningful visible ranking system is still in the works. Sounds like you're waiting for in-game telemetry before putting a system in place.
YourExWife
Member
lybertyboy
Thinks the Evil Empire is just misunderstood.
I hear 1pm is good time of day in the Pacific time zone.
Moa
Member
Ooooh.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
Today?? :-D
Poker Face
Member
343 SELL THE VOTE SHIRTS PLS
GodlyPerfection
Member
My body is ready.
Steelyuhas
Member
Yay!
Since we're talking about skill matching, can you comment on what party matching will be like?
Reagan's BR
Banned
I've always been nice to you while these folks made fun of you
Gabotron ES
Member
How many hours? fuck time zones
Steelyuhas
Member
20 minutes.
Moa
Member
19 minutes if I'm not mistaken.
xBrutality
Neo Member
20 minutes