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Halo |OT15| Beta-tested, GAF approved

BigShow36

Member
Oh. I wholeheartedly agree. But there are those guys who love the Camo AA, so at least leave the option in there for their custom games or niche playlists.



I think that's mainly because they're being built to work for all maps and game modes, and that isn't always the case. One AA could ruin the way a map plays completely (which is usually Camo or Jetpack).

They need to be tailored.

But Halo can't be everything. That's what it's been trying to do and it's failing. It has no identity. I like Mario Kart, should Halo add that too? Just because some mouth-breather likes to camp with Camo AA doesn't mean Halo needs to cater to them.

Halo desperately needs to re-connect with it's identity, because right now it doesn't have one so no one is really connecting to it. If 343 want's to make a game with loadouts and jetpacks and powerups at the press of a button that's fine, but it's not Halo so don't call it Halo.
 
But Halo can't be everything. That's what it's been trying to do and it's failing. It has no identity. I like Mario Kart, should Halo add that too? Just because some mouth-breather likes to camp with Camo AA doesn't mean Halo needs to cater to them.

Halo desperately needs to re-establish it's identity, because right now it doesn't have one so no one is really connecting to it.

Games that never really evolved, died. Just look at quake and UT for examples.

They played exactly the same without changing too much for a very long time and now, they dont sell.
 

BigShow36

Member
Games that never really evolved, died. Just look at quake and UT for examples.

I'm not arguing for no evolution, I'm arguing for intelligent evolution that maintains the core of what made people love the game in the first place. Look at Starcraft if you need an example of how to do it right.
 
Games that never really evolved, died. Just look at quake and UT for examples.

They played exactly the same without changing too much for a very long time and now, they dont sell.
I don't even know how to tackle this post, nor how you even came to such an outlandish conclusion.

The genre is competitively dying thanks to these evolutions.
 
I'm not arguing for no evolution, I'm arguing for intelligent evolution that maintains the core of what made people love the game in the first place. Look at Starcraft if you need an example of how to do it right.

Starcraft also released 2 games in the span of more then a decade. Halo has 6 games. Lets see where starcraft is at on features and evolution on game number 6.
 
I don't even know how to tackle this post, nor how you even came to such an outlandish conclusion.

The genre is competitively dying thanks to these evolutions.

Yes, just like musicals in the movies were huge at one point, then they died. Thats what happens in every industry.

Times change.
 
But Halo can't be everything. That's what it's been trying to do and it's failing. It has no identity. I like Mario Kart, should Halo add that too?

You could Race in Reach, and how many people were disappointed when that was taken out? It's stuff like Race or Grifball or Rev Ball or Duck Hunt or Halo or all those other ridiculous mini-games that makes this game not like all the other FPS's out there.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying Halo should suddenly have a 3rd person option because there are people who want that. No, we need to keep the core gameplay true to what Halo established itself as. But this doesn't mean we should remove everything and make it Halo CE HD.

Part of what Halo established itself as was having this ability to make these other gametypes. You could do so much with customs that I was constantly amazed by what the community would come up with next.

Custom Content is why Halo can get away with 2-3 years between games. Custom maps, custom game types, screenshots, machinima - all essential parts of Halo since CE. Bungie knew this and they accommodated this. Their new ideas didn't always work in the core multiplayer, but there was always a cult community that made use of it somewhere.
 
But Halo can't be everything. That's what it's been trying to do and it's failing. It has no identity. I like Mario Kart, should Halo add that too? Just because some mouth-breather likes to camp with Camo AA doesn't mean Halo needs to cater to them.

Halo desperately needs to re-establish it's identity, because right now it doesn't have one so no one is really connecting to it.

Semantics. Halo 1, 2 and 3 were everything to many people because of the wealth of options we had for Customs.

As for the Mario Kart comment, I know you're joking but what if Halo were to step in that direction? Imagine a Halo that kept evolving Custom Game options where you could make crazy gametypes like that large/mini Flood mod? That's the direction Halo should've headed with its multiplayer IMO.

You mentioned SC2 and I raise you the mods that game has. Halo should be in a completely different place right now.

You could Race in Reach, and how many people were disappointed when that was taken out? It's stuff like Race or Grifball or Rev Ball or Duck Hunt or Halo or all those other ridiculous mini-games that makes this game not like all the other FPS's out there.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying Halo should suddenly have a 3rd person option because there are people who want that. No, we need to keep the core gameplay true to what Halo established itself as. But this doesn't mean we should remove everything and make it Halo CE HD.

Part of what Halo established itself as was having this ability to make these other gametypes.

My head. Get out of it.
 

BigShow36

Member
Semantics. Halo 1, 2 and 3 were everything to many people because of the wealth of options we had for Customs.

I would argue that it was the core gameplay that made those customs enjoyable in the first place, and I'm sure you would agree. The most popular custom games didn't rely on drastic alterations to what the player could do, they actually imposed restrictions which made players play a certain way. Having every option under the sun isn't necessary for Halo to succeed. Having solid fundamental, predictable gameplay is.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Semantics. Halo 1, 2 and 3 were everything to many people because of the wealth of options we had for Customs.

As for the Mario Kart comment, I know you're joking but what if Halo were to step in that direction? Imagine a Halo that kept evolving Custom Game options where you could make crazy gametypes like that large/mini Flood mod? That's the direction Halo should've headed with its multiplayer IMO.

You mentioned SC2 and I raise you the mods that game has. Halo should be in a completely different place right now.



My head. Get out of it.

I should point out that you only need to look at the awesome customs Petetheduck comes up with to see that even with restrictions, creativity can make some awesome stuff. I think 343i should put more emphasis on making it easier for everyone to jump in and share those experiences.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Well, if you like RTSes.

For the casual watcher, it's mostly me trying to survive. I was pinned down pretty well since I let the opposing team claim the base point right to my left.

What can I say? I like my Cobras (when I'm using them against others, not vice versa :D)
 

IHaveIce

Banned
EmrxgMX.png


hmmmm
 

heckfu

Banned
Life is too short to complain about what could have been. Instead, look not to the past, but enjoy the present.

There's March Madness to enjoy!
 
Sometimes, balance means addition by subtraction.

And thus, Halo was born. It's difficult to convey now just how invigorating Halo was to me when it released. A huge part of its problem now is that it's lost the joy of its simplicity.

But Halo can't be everything. Just because some mouth-breather likes to camp with Camo AA doesn't mean Halo needs to cater to them.

If 343 want's to make a game with loadouts and jetpacks and powerups at the press of a button that's fine, but it's not Halo so don't call it Halo.

.
 
I would argue that it was the core gameplay that made those customs enjoyable in the first place, and I'm sure you would agree. The most popular custom games didn't rely on drastic alterations to what the player could do, they actually imposed restrictions which made players play a certain way. Having every option under the sun isn't necessary for Halo to succeed. Having solid fundamental, predictable gameplay is.

Yes, at the core gameplay it should flow smoothly and reward your input. We don't need every option, but at the same time the options we do have shouldn't be in the game all at the same time. The problem we're facing now is oversaturation to give the illusion of depth. Instead you end up with a flashy, cluttered and shallow experience.

That's not what Halo started as and it's not what it needs to become to sustain itself. It needs to be intuitive, charming, smart, and straight to the point. It needs to be flexible, and it needs to be adaptable. Things like 'committed carrier experiences' go against that.
 
Makes sense why it does, just means one more reason to like non-instantaneous respawns :p

One of the worst additions to the game IMO. Instant spawn has indirectly affected so many custom options and for what - to get us in the action 3 seconds faster? What was the point of Sprint then?
 

BigShow36

Member
Yes, at the core gameplay it should flow smoothly and reward your input. We don't need every option, but at the same time the options we do have shouldn't be in the game all at the same time. The problem we're facing now is oversaturation to give the illusion of depth. Instead you end up with a flashy, cluttered and shallow experience.

That's not what Halo started as and it's not what it needs to become to sustain itself. It needs to be intuitive, charming, smart, and straight to the point. It needs to be flexible, and it needs to be adaptable. Things like 'committed carrier experiences' go against that.

Yes, flexible is a good word. But remember, some of the most crazy, fun, cool stuff in Halo was simply part of the core gameplay. Grenading Jumping, Launching Warthogs, Blowing Weapons to yourself, Warthog Jousts.... all of that was merely a result of the gameplay. It wasn't intentionally designed randomness, it was organic evolution because the core gameplay was solid. As counter intuitive as this sounds, the random fun shit came about because the core gameplay was predicatable. It didn't require extra options or little widgets that apply to only one gametype or one map. I loved the freedom I felt when playing Halo CE. A player could use their imagination to come up with crazy shit, even in a serious match.

You can have flexibility inherent in the gameplay without including things like jetpacks.
 

Dongs Macabre

aka Daedalos42
Semantics. Halo 1, 2 and 3 were everything to many people because of the wealth of options we had for Customs.

As for the Mario Kart comment, I know you're joking but what if Halo were to step in that direction? Imagine a Halo that kept evolving Custom Game options where you could make crazy gametypes like that large/mini Flood mod? That's the direction Halo should've headed with its multiplayer IMO.

You mentioned SC2 and I raise you the mods that game has. Halo should be in a completely different place right now.



My head. Get out of it.

Reach was a step towards that, but then Halo 4 went back to Halo 3 levels of customisation. :(
 
I would argue that it was the core gameplay that made those customs enjoyable in the first place, and I'm sure you would agree. The most popular custom games didn't rely on drastic alterations to what the player could do, they actually imposed restrictions which made players play a certain way. Having every option under the sun isn't necessary for Halo to succeed. Having solid fundamental, predictable gameplay is.

Yup and I agree. I'm a firm believer that if you take just about any map that wasn't good in its game (Epitaph Halo 3) and put it in Halo 1, it'll instantly become a much better map. Maybe not amazing, but definitely better because of the core gameplay.

That being said and referring to the bold, there's no reason to limit the options players can enjoy for Customs. Maybe that is what Halo needs to become a top contender again. Maybe a new way to game online with something like a hybrid CGB/MM system will bring people to Halo because they can just about find whatever they want to play. That's how communities are grown and friendships are made, Halo needs more options and advancements.

You said it would be best to just remove Camo as an AA, but I'd say Camo as an AA can be fun given the right setting. The Arbiter missions in Halo 2 were amazing with the Camo AA for example. By the way, we're in agreement but I'm just taking it a step further because Halo needs to stop limiting players overall.

I should point out that you only need to look at the awesome customs Petetheduck comes up with to see that even with restrictions, creativity can make some awesome stuff. I think 343i should put more emphasis on making it easier for everyone to jump in and share those experiences.

100% agree. We need an evolution to online gaming and how we match up with people. MM restricting players to what the devs want is severely gimping the enjoyment of it. As is, Custom Games are just too much of a chore to set up.

They should just let Petetheduck handle Action Sack lol
 

Booshka

Member
You could Race in Reach, and how many people were disappointed when that was taken out? It's stuff like Race or Grifball or Rev Ball or Duck Hunt or Halo or all those other ridiculous mini-games that makes this game not like all the other FPS's out there.

I completely understand where you're coming from. I'm not saying Halo should suddenly have a 3rd person option because there are people who want that. No, we need to keep the core gameplay true to what Halo established itself as. But this doesn't mean we should remove everything and make it Halo CE HD.

Part of what Halo established itself as was having this ability to make these other gametypes. You could do so much with customs that I was constantly amazed by what the community would come up with next.

Custom Content is why Halo can get away with 2-3 years between games. Custom maps, custom game types, screenshots, machinima - all essential parts of Halo since CE. Bungie knew this and they accommodated this. Their new ideas didn't always work in the core multiplayer, but there was always a cult community that made use of it somewhere.

I'd take Halo CE HD at 60 FPS with XBL on Dedicated Servers over any other thing I have ever played in Halo for the past 8+ years. If you wiped all the other game modes away, all the goofy gametypes and minigames and gave me the best the Halo series has to offer, I'd be perfectly fine with it.

I didn't trust Bungie to do better with Halo as they did with Halo CE MP, and they didn't, every Halo game after CE was worse than the one before it. Halo 4 is worse than all of Bungie's Halo games, and it will probably only get worse. So I don't need the Halo platform that can house infinite gametypes, game modes, minigames, forge mode, theatre and screenshot viewer, etc that most people want, because I can't see 343 pulling it off and making it all great. Just give me the best of what you already made, in perfect form ("Halo Live", CE MP, 60 FPS, Dedicated Servers on XBL).

I understand most of the Halo community wants to be able to whack Soccer balls with grav hammers, race warthogs through mine fields, while also being able to play regular old Team Slayer, CTF, FFA, Oddball, etc. But, even with all of that variety, most of it is just mediocre or shallow, and dilutes the overall identity and quality of the game.
 
Yes, flexible is a good word. But remember, some of the most crazy, fun, cool stuff in Halo was simply part of the core gameplay. Grenading Jumping, Launching Warthogs, Blowing Weapons to yourself, Warthog Jousts.... all of that was merely a subset of the gameplay. It didn't require extra options or little widgets that apply to only one gametype or one map. I loved the freedom I felt when playing Halo CE. A player could use their imagination to come up with crazy shit, even in a serious match.

You can have flexibility inherent in the gameplay without including things like jetpacks.

I agree. We had a bucket with a few fruits in it, and because of that we could see all the way to the bottom; it had depth.

But we've been adding onto that with too many exotic fruits and now we can only see the fruits on top; there's no depth.

You and I both want the same thing. We want depth and simplicity. Want less is more. We want a game that requires imagination and thought. I think it's fucking awesome that you could grenade weapons to yourself in CE, and I want things like that back.

But I'd also like to keep some of the other stuff. I don't want them to be so obscure that you can only use them in mini-games though. We shouldn't clutter the game with useless weapons or abilities, but they should be nice add-ons in multiplayer that require creativity to spawn mini-games from in custom games.

For another analogy, we should be carrying five 20 dollar bills instead of 20 five dollar bills. Less stuff that have more uses other than niche gameplay. Give me a weapon that can be used 3 different ways, not 3 different weapons (I'm not talking about anti-vehicular DMRs btw).

Versatility, flexibility, recycle; that's what Halo always was for me. It was a master key. A woman who could cook, clean, drive, work, raise kids, and ride like a stallion.
 
Reach was a step towards that, but then Halo 4 went back to Halo 3 levels of customisation. :(
Well, Reach reintroduced Race, introduced Insane, and bunch of other stuff.

I hesitated to include Reach in that because it was in development for 3 years and had no substantial increase over Halo 3 ;[

Sure it had FF, but ODST had it too (and much better). Halo hasn't added anything to move the industry as a whole (let alone the franchise) forward since 2007.
And it breaks my heart.

I understand most of the Halo community wants to be able to whack Soccer balls with grav hammers, race warthogs through mine fields, while also being able to play regular old Team Slayer, CTF, FFA, Oddball, etc. But, even with all of that variety, most of it is just mediocre or shallow, and dilutes the overall identity and quality of the game.

Halo's identity is static and dynamic. Static in the universe and how the game feels, but dynamic in that it can be played in so many ways. Those experiences you call mediocre or shallow are your opinions obviously, but that doesn't mean the quality of the game takes a hit for it. The opposite can easily be argued.

BigShow brought it up in his defense which is what you're agreeing with, but you guys forgot that SC2's Custom Games can be nothing like the "identity" of the main game/multiplayer itself. Halo needs to seriously step it up next gen and at least that's something we can all agree with lol


-EDIT-

Eh, I wouldn't give them too much flak. Most shooters in the eSports scene aren't much better. This isn't exactly endemic to just CoD.

No older people who aren't into games are going to watch eSports, so they should stop running it like ESPN. EVO is the way those streams should be ran; announcers being themselves that the audience are fans of and not teenagers in suits trying to talk professionally.

Also, the shit talking they allow is beyond me.. Sure people can argue for it, but as professional as they want their image to be MLG and other events should start limiting that kind of nonsense. That recent AGL tourney was out of hand..
 

Ghazi

Member
Here's what we do guys, we pool all our money together and buy a time travel machine, we take a copy of Halo 4 into the past at Halo 3's launch, we show Bungie, and the series is saved and Bungie stays doing Halo with assistance from 343i.


Note: This is plan B in case Destiny sucks (hopefully it won't!)
 

Redford

aka Cabbie
The positions people are taking in the discussion on these past two pages are confusing as fuck but I think I'm with Bigshow on it?

So X's just disappear upon instant respawn...

343i find a way, I knew they would.

IR is the reason the things were eliminated in the first place, I can't imagine instant respawn has long to live now.

If there is one thing I have noticed with Halo 4, it is that people dislike having a lack of options and 343 has done nothing to address this. Custom Game options suck and Sound options suck. Custom options was something I was hoping 343 would carry over from Bungies Halo, and the Sound options should be expanded upon for everyones sake. I don't want to hear music during the game, and I would really love the option to turn down game sounds so I can hear my friends if I'm recording.

They can't do any harm by adding these Sound options, and CoD had these ages ago. Sorry to keep going back to CoD with things like this, but for all the flak CoD devs get, they sure know how to give us Sound options.

The sound direction in this game is the main thing I hate about it. I don't think the particular late-game music from E3 is in the final product either, which was the only one I liked. And all the clicking and clacking of the weapons/spartans destroys that nice contrast there used to be between quietly traversing a map and a loud firefight. Fucking gross.
 

heckfu

Banned
So X's just disappear upon instant respawn...

343i find a way, I knew they would.

I don't see how this is a complaint. If they didn't then it would eliminate an entire specialization that showed the X of the person who killed you when you resawned.

If it stayed then you could seemingly 'double up' specializations.
 

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Here's what we do guys, we pool all our money together and buy a time travel machine, we take a copy of Halo 4 into the past at Halo 3's launch, we show Bungie, and the series is saved and Bungie stays doing Halo with assistance from 343i.


Note: This is plan B in case Destiny sucks (hopefully it won't!)

I would go back in time and tell Bungie to stop making Halo for babbies
 
I don't see how this is a complaint. If they didn't then it would eliminate an entire specialization that showed the X of the person who killed you when you resawned.

If it stayed then you could seemingly 'double up' specializations.

TU should have removed specializations in the first place. Shits weak as hell. I cant requisition because I havent nerded out as hard as you? Thats some bull.
 

Pop

Member
I don't see how this is a complaint. If they didn't then it would eliminate an entire specialization that showed the X of the person who killed you when you resawned.

If it stayed then you could seemingly 'double up' specializations.

Yup

I know. Sad to see 343i favor in instant respawn and specs over X's.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
That specialization - which is used by no one - shows who killed you. The red Xs show where you or your teammates got killed. Unless they use the same kind of X (It's 343, you never know), I don't see what the issue is. Plus, it's not like people die off spawns straight away over and over again all the time so the screen won't be filled with Xs constantly.

GODDAMMIT FRANKIE PUT HALO ON STEAM ALREADY
 

heckfu

Banned
That specialization - which is used by no one - shows who killed you. The red Xs show where you or your teammates got killed. Unless they use the same kind of X (It's 343, you never know), I don't see what the issue is. Plus, it's not like people die off spawns straight away over and over again all the time so the screen won't be filled with Xs constantly.

Damn it, you're right, sorry. I got mixed up when thinking about it.
 
The discussion on this page is confusing as fuck but I think I'm with Bigshow on it?

To sum it up:

  • We all want an experience/game like Halo 1/2
  • Some of us think Halo should evolve with the options they give players to allow for even more Custom Games, while some of us think that's not as important

I think Halo should step in the direction of more Custom Game options and advancing features (revamped online (MM/CGB hybrid), streaming, a functional Theater that wasn't better in H3, etc.) because we haven't seen any significant improvements since 2007. Camo as an AA doesn't need to be removed from the game, it just needs to be removed from MM. Things like Camo and Jet Pack can be fun for Custom Games.

I don't see how this is a complaint. If they didn't then it would eliminate an entire specialization that showed the X of the person who killed you when you resawned.

If it stayed then you could seemingly 'double up' specializations.

A whole entire specialization? Doh.. lol I don't get what you're saying though. How does keeping an X deathmark there for a limited time despite instant respawn impact the Nemesis mod?

The dead player's teammate sees the red X, the person who just died would just see the Nemesis X if they were using that mod. If there was a time when both players died and two red X's can be seen by one of them, then the one moving is the Nemesis although they should just change that from a red X anyway.. What am I missing?
 
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