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Halo |OT16| Oh Bungie, Where Art Thou?
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Wow, are you sure that website is legit? I've never heard of it but I can't believe that last quote is true.
Wrong. IGN wouldn't say shit.
This is so true.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I think you need chill out and realize why decisions like this are made. They aren't just making a game for us, they are making a game that must sell to everyone. That quote is disappointing for sure, but before you jump to conclusions and just blame Josh for scrapping that you have to understand the decisions behind it, and that it was likely more MS and others that scrapped it.
If the game was too close to being Halo 2 or 3 (while that's what a lot of Gaf wants) it may have not gone over well overall. We're seeing the result of the changes in the population decline (partially I guess, partially that is due to other influences) but what would the results have been had they used that early build? We may be happy, but the game could have tanked. Could have been critically panned for being just another Halo.
Interesting overall, but we have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. I just hope they revive that build for Halo 5. Then we can see the true results.
Poker Face
Member
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Bungie's Halo 2 was so different?
It's just the development reality for many games.
As for the classic scrapping it should have stayed in a classic playlist, too much 343i change when classic playlist gets some 75% of the new mechanics etc
The changes if late and mostly since launch have been solid too.
But if they make a new game with new stuff that still feels like the good ol' Halo, won't that make new AND old fans buy the game and enjoy it?
I know what you mean, of course there are news outlets who critizised Halo would be to stale and always the same( heck some reviewers stil lsaid that about Halo 4), but I don't think it would have made a big difference, the big sites would have still given big reviews because of graphics and the Halo name, that is how the business works.
You have to decide do you want to please the very vocal fanbase or some reviewers who won't play the game for months
Deadline is of course Microsofts thing.
And I don't think the sales would have been affected, the people who watched all these MP videos before are we, a minority in comparison to the big Halo sales, most of them didn't even know of the changes beforehand probably because of no Beta. The Sales would be big enough because of the Return of the chief and the Halo label on top of the box.
Yep, seems like it.
You have to realize.
That they made what was apparently a more traditional, core Halo. That seemingly everyone there loved and it played great. And they scrapped it for a newer approach to Halo.
Ok, fine. Let 343 try and make something new. No harm done.
But they didn't even bother putting in this traditional Halo into matchmaking. Essentially forcing you to play THEIR version of Halo.
However let me say, I'm really enjoying these insights into development. The acknowledgement of mistakes. I love post mortems where developers to this. Gives you hope for the future.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
You'd think that, but I see both sides of the fence. I have friends that were hardcore into Halo 1 and enjoyed 2, but as the series went on they began to fall off because there was not much innovation in the gameplay. It felt like the Halo series was falling behind modern FPS standards. While that may sound crazy to some of you (and me even) I think there are a lot of people out there that would share that view.
In making Halo 4 be just Halo 3.5 you run the risk of losing more fans due to fatigue in the franchise and losing out on money from sales overall.
Could the opposite have happened and the game sold gangbusters and the population explodes? Sure, but that's the gamble you take with an established franchise. Sit on it's "core components" too much and you could bring in massive fatigue, change it too much and the core fans will hate it.
It's a tightrope act for sure.
I agree with this for sure. Learning always helps, and hopefully it'll help make a better Halo 5. As much as I enjoy bits of 4, I hate seeing HaloGaf hate the game. I want everyone to love Halo again, I want Halo to be "it" again. It kills me to see games like CoD take the crown (despite liking those games as well).
What the hell are you talking about? The game DID tank. Your endless list of apologies for 343 is ridiculous. This article proves everything we've suspected for a year. The masses will buy anything with the Master Chief and a Halo on it. The recurring revenue comes from the community buying DLC, XBL subscriptions, and other add-on, promotions and t-shirts.
343 made a bad game because they don't have a strong strategy, and they sure as shit can't execute. Stop making excuses, it's so old.
Good point, it wouldn't be that bad if it would have released like we as first thought. Normal Halo style MP overall and loadout/Ordnance crap in Infninity(not being the maingametype)
And yes I agree, these insights are important, I reeeeally would love a Halo 4 behind the scenes in the style of the Halo 2 one.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Game didn't tank at all. The population has in the months since, yes. I'm not excusing anything either, I just think there's more to the story than "Josh Holmes hates Halo." Game development is not as simple as some seem to think. I want them to dig up that build for Halo 5 though, then we can really see what the overall gaming community wants.
So ease up. I have yet to "apologize" for anything 343 did. Halo 4 is not doing well post launch, that's clear. I'm all for them bringing that core version back. I'm just trying to get people to realize that decision most likely wasn't as night and day as the article makes it seem. Not sure how that comes across as defending 343 that much, but if that's what you see so be it.
What gets even more "old" is people having meltdowns when stuff like this comes out, and when they start attacking single individuals for things that they most likely had no control over. We're above that. We want Halo to be good, we don't need to wish people fired for that to happen.
Someone call Geoff, get him to make a final hours of Halo 4. That would be gold.
Not even main gametype.
I probably might have ragged on 343 a bit if Infinity Rando Fiesta gametypes were the base game, as long as there was Halo Classic in matchmaking I would have been content.
But there wasn't. And the options to make it weren't there either.
Well I guess I have my answer to the posts I made a month ago.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48599637&postcount=5212
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48603816&postcount=5232
The multiplayer wasn't focus tested into oblivion. Instead that direction was actively pursued over traditional settings by the developers themselves.
Onwards to Destiny this fall.
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48599637&postcount=5212
http://neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=48603816&postcount=5232
The multiplayer wasn't focus tested into oblivion. Instead that direction was actively pursued over traditional settings by the developers themselves.
Onwards to Destiny this fall.
It seems like the Halo franchise is no longer relevant to my interests. I understand why they would scrap a traditional Halo prototype, it's sad, but just shows that the game is no longer developed with someone like myself in mind. This franchise is just a different beast now.
Back to Dark Souls, good luck with the next one 343.
Back to Dark Souls, good luck with the next one 343.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I honestly hope Destiny is good, because Bungie's last game was Reach. The game that started all you hate about Halo 4.
I'm looking forward to it though.
no bullets hans
Neo Member
There's arguments on both sides. Why do they keep rebooting comic franchises? Because the 10 year olds from 10 years ago are 20 now and there's new 10 year olds who don't or can't see the movie from ten years ago. They need a new Spider-Man movie to see in theaters now.
So with Halo, you have an established audience. A loyal one, but an established fanbase is not a growing one. It is static.
You have to find growth outside your fanbase. Obviously, change and innovation are how you reach new fans. The successful stories are the ones that don't alienate the established fanbase while attracting new fans. Its hard. Its rare. I'm hard pressed to think of a truly successful example of this.
Halo is at that point. You have 5 titles from a single developer who created the IP. Nobody is discovering Halo 2. Nobody is buying Halo 3 DLC. Not in numbers worth mentioning.
343 is just doing what everyone else has done ever.
Maybe not well. Maybe not terrible. But believe me, people who bought Halo 2 or Halo 3 at launch are not the audience 343 cares about anymore.
So with Halo, you have an established audience. A loyal one, but an established fanbase is not a growing one. It is static.
You have to find growth outside your fanbase. Obviously, change and innovation are how you reach new fans. The successful stories are the ones that don't alienate the established fanbase while attracting new fans. Its hard. Its rare. I'm hard pressed to think of a truly successful example of this.
Halo is at that point. You have 5 titles from a single developer who created the IP. Nobody is discovering Halo 2. Nobody is buying Halo 3 DLC. Not in numbers worth mentioning.
343 is just doing what everyone else has done ever.
Maybe not well. Maybe not terrible. But believe me, people who bought Halo 2 or Halo 3 at launch are not the audience 343 cares about anymore.
"While the game received high scores, some critics pointed out a feeling of sameness."
I don't buy this shit at all. Do they expect a reinvention of the wheel every time? This is what makes Halo, Halo. If you want Mass Effect style character development and dialogue, play Mass Effect, if you want Skyrim style exploration and RPG elements, play Skyrim.
I don't see why everyone wants every game to be an amalgam of all games released. I've already started to read people say they wish they could run and climb in the next GTA, the way they are now used to in games like Assassins Creed and Infamous etc.
I don't buy it Cyclone. If you are tired of Halo:CE and Halo 2 and Halo 3, you are tired of Halo period. I never once thought while playing Halo 2, wtf man this is exactly like CE, or when playing Halo 3, wondering why it's the same as Halo 2. It's what I, as a Halo fan, wanted.
It's the opposite, most Halo fans only started noticing when they started adding drastic changes to the core gameplay.
Yes it's nice to get things like ODST or Halo Wars once in a while. It switches up how we view the game universe, gives a new way to play. But Halo 4 wasn't meant to be ODST, it was meant to be the start of a new trilogy, a trilogy that would carry the series forward, but all I've seen is it alienate it's most passionate fans. What Halo:Reach apparently started, Halo 4 is finishing.
I'd say Halo:Reach and Halo 4 have contributed more to fatigue and general ambivalence towards the series than the preceding games.
I don't buy this shit at all. Do they expect a reinvention of the wheel every time? This is what makes Halo, Halo. If you want Mass Effect style character development and dialogue, play Mass Effect, if you want Skyrim style exploration and RPG elements, play Skyrim.
I don't see why everyone wants every game to be an amalgam of all games released. I've already started to read people say they wish they could run and climb in the next GTA, the way they are now used to in games like Assassins Creed and Infamous etc.
I don't buy it Cyclone. If you are tired of Halo:CE and Halo 2 and Halo 3, you are tired of Halo period. I never once thought while playing Halo 2, wtf man this is exactly like CE, or when playing Halo 3, wondering why it's the same as Halo 2. It's what I, as a Halo fan, wanted.
It's the opposite, most Halo fans only started noticing when they started adding drastic changes to the core gameplay.
Yes it's nice to get things like ODST or Halo Wars once in a while. It switches up how we view the game universe, gives a new way to play. But Halo 4 wasn't meant to be ODST, it was meant to be the start of a new trilogy, a trilogy that would carry the series forward, but all I've seen is it alienate it's most passionate fans. What Halo:Reach apparently started, Halo 4 is finishing.
I'd say Halo:Reach and Halo 4 have contributed more to fatigue and general ambivalence towards the series than the preceding games.
I'll wait and see how this plays out, and what (if any) further comments 343 will provide.
To be fair, the final months of Halo 3 dragged a little, but that's because of lack of new content, dwindling population and less and less stable hosts. I would be down with having a Halo 3.5 if it meant we got more maps, campaign, FF/Spops and DLC. Basically like your normal release. I know people will bring up the CoD argument and state that people complain about how CoD is the same thing year in year out but I wonder if I'd mind that type of release regarding Halo.
To be fair, the final months of Halo 3 dragged a little, but that's because of lack of new content, dwindling population and less and less stable hosts. I would be down with having a Halo 3.5 if it meant we got more maps, campaign, FF/Spops and DLC. Basically like your normal release. I know people will bring up the CoD argument and state that people complain about how CoD is the same thing year in year out but I wonder if I'd mind that type of release regarding Halo.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
I do have to say though, Josh may want to stop doing interviews. All he seems to do in them is let a quote slip that further enrages the core fanbase. I'm sure he doesn't mean it that way, but man, that quote is pretty much ether to Halo fans in general, especially those that hate 4.
You are right, but to grow the audience you don't need to change the old gamestyle or formular.
best example Call Of Duty. And no the secret is not to copy their gameplay, it is to see how they only change their gameplay to a minimum.
Halo 5 has to be the second coming of jesus for me to buy it, I won't quit this franchise, I will keep playing it, but I don't know if I want to buy another xbox and be again disappointed with another Halo.
Series fatigue? I'm baffled. The last game was Halo Reach, not Halo 3. By reintroducing the "traditional Halo", you would be preventing fatigue.
I don't know if it will be good, but from what I've been reading and hearing and seeing, I have the feeling, they are going for all people to be happy.
Regarding competitive PvP in Destiny. I've seen screens of weapons with reticles on screen and ADS type weapons. They said people can engage competitively and that it's some of the most fun they've had.
What if they took Forge one step further, where you could visit a planet solely made for PvP? Where you can fight, have weapons spawn on map, use non-ADS weapons only. Basically recreate classic Halo within Destiny?
I don't think Destiny will be anything at all like Halo, but I have hope it'll be a good, polished game from day one. Bungie has never screwed that up. My biggest complaint was with the Chief's ending in Halo 2. That's about it. Either you like their decisions or don't.
I have a feeling, guys like Shifty, guys like FyreWulff will go buckwild in Destiny. And with our "old guard" at HaloGAF, we could probably recreate classic Halo somehow. That's just a pipe dream though. I know Bungie is big fans of Battlefield 3, and seeing Reach, I feel it'll be a mix of the two games.
I hope he doesn't. I'm not enraged at him at all, nor have I singled him out. I love reading interviews like this. I don't want the standard PR crap. It's refreshing to see and read. It was especially interesting to read Frankie's loyalty to the series. From OXM editor, to Halo 2 community manager, to Franchise Development Director for the series.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Multiplayer sure that is a valid theory but when over 50% play for campaign alone how does it stack up?
This is a great point.
I'd like to add that people are bored of Halo 4 and the style of play it brings to the table. People have already had enough and we're not even 6 months in yet. Halo 3, with 2 similar Halo games behind it, lasted most people 2+ years before they got bored. I played CE, 2 and 3 for the full time they were out. I quit Reach for 6 months at one point because it got boring and frustrating. Halo 4 I can't even bring myself to play half the time, and when I do it's normally with people, which isn't often.
Either way, the current direction the franchise is heading is not a good one, and maybe going back to the more traditional Halo is a better direction to head in.
Something needs to change.
Couldn't have been an easy decision to make and obviously they didn't make it thinking "this sure will piss everyone off but at least we're doing things our way just because"
Hopefully they learned something from the whole process and all the decisions they made so that Halo 5 can please old and new fans.
Hopefully they learned something from the whole process and all the decisions they made so that Halo 5 can please old and new fans.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Will have to read that article later.
That goddamn pressure to ship in November.. god damn it.
That goddamn pressure to ship in November.. god damn it.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Ah, man whatever, I give up. Nowhere at all did I say "OMG 343 did so good! They never do anything wrong! Halo 4 is a perfect game! Everyone <343!" Like some seem to think.
I always just try to interject a perspective of thinking from multiple points of view, and that includes 343. I may like Halo 4 in general, but I've always noted it has faults. Also on this (and the last) page alone I've said more than once that I want them to find that old build and use something like it for Halo 5 and make it more traditional.
I've always said 4 is not traditional Halo. I've never once said the game is more Halo (or even necessarily better) than Halo 1/2/3. It's a completely different beast.
It just seems whenever I say "let's look at it from 343's perspective" or "from a business perspective" people just take that as the ultimate defense of 343, when in reality I like to view the situation from all angles. I guess people just feel better with seeing me as the unabashed 343 fan that loves them to the end, if so you're completely mistaken, but go for it. If you'd rather just make fun of any point that's not "343 and Halo 4 suck" then you're better off just posting funny pictures and gifs laughing at those that like the game than having a true discussion.
Disclaimer: Not singling any one person out necessarily. I fully appreciate those of you who do have the deep discussions. Everyone here likes the Halo franchise, some are just worse at discussing it than others.
I always just try to interject a perspective of thinking from multiple points of view, and that includes 343. I may like Halo 4 in general, but I've always noted it has faults. Also on this (and the last) page alone I've said more than once that I want them to find that old build and use something like it for Halo 5 and make it more traditional.
I've always said 4 is not traditional Halo. I've never once said the game is more Halo (or even necessarily better) than Halo 1/2/3. It's a completely different beast.
It just seems whenever I say "let's look at it from 343's perspective" or "from a business perspective" people just take that as the ultimate defense of 343, when in reality I like to view the situation from all angles. I guess people just feel better with seeing me as the unabashed 343 fan that loves them to the end, if so you're completely mistaken, but go for it. If you'd rather just make fun of any point that's not "343 and Halo 4 suck" then you're better off just posting funny pictures and gifs laughing at those that like the game than having a true discussion.
Disclaimer: Not singling any one person out necessarily. I fully appreciate those of you who do have the deep discussions. Everyone here likes the Halo franchise, some are just worse at discussing it than others.
I did, and I understand and empathize with all of it. Of course it is ridiculously hard to do what 343 did, build a huge AAA studio and make a new Halo game. They made decisions that I and many others don't agree with, and they had their legitimate reasons to do so.
This article provides some excellent insight into what I already assumed, this franchise is being steered in a different direction, a direction I am not interested in.
Come on, I also joke about his defendant style from time to time, but he didn't say anything crazy here. He nowhere supported 343 in this situation, he probably is as confused as we are and wants Halo to be back.Found a picture of Deadly Cyclone, good thing he does p90x and his cardio is good:
I did, I doubt these mistakes and fault were not obvious before crunch and release.
The Real Napsta
Member
DC, I think everyone is sick of your defend 343 to the grave posts. Nothing personal, it's just getting really old.
Was not saying to defend them or anything though. Just pointing out that reading the whole thing gives some more perspective. You don't have to agree, but they do hit on some things that they themselves acknowledge went wrong.
Zeouterlimits
Member
Ehhh, I'll agree people might be giving you a hard time on this page (quick glances mind), but you have been kind of beaten down from originally a much more pro-Halo 4 stance.
The tone of your posts about the game has changed in the past 2 to 3 months has changed from what it was before that, do you agree?
But didn't they throw all tradition away and make their own game? See how inconsistent they are? And yeah, I came on strong, BUT, the population tanking means the game tank. Just because it sold so many copies doesn't mean the game was good.
MaximumFlipFlop
Banned
"How can we make it easier on ourselves when developing Halo 4?"
"Well, trying to balance all those loadouts and AAs from Reach must have been tough on Bungie, why don't we just scrap that stuff and bring back traditional Halo? Then we could just focus straight away on fine tuning that classic experience. It's a win/win all around."
"Fuck that."
"Well, trying to balance all those loadouts and AAs from Reach must have been tough on Bungie, why don't we just scrap that stuff and bring back traditional Halo? Then we could just focus straight away on fine tuning that classic experience. It's a win/win all around."
"Fuck that."
StalkerUKCG
Banned
I could direct a movie in 4 days, call it Blade Runner 2, and a bunch of nerds would go see it. After I make millions they will be pissed and complain about it on the Harrison Ford Fans Forums for 2 years while I maintain relevance.
Fuck 343. Selling Halo 4 is easy. Making it good isn't. They are a bad developer.
Fuck 343. Selling Halo 4 is easy. Making it good isn't. They are a bad developer.
no bullets hans
Neo Member
I don't know where you get the statistic that over 50% of gamers play for the campaign. if that's accurate, then I'm surprised.
I'll say this though, if campaign is the driver behind gamer retention, then why is all post-release DLC multiplayer only? There has never been a single added campaign level to Halo, ever. It has always been matchmaking maps. Plenty of other games have added campaign, but never Halo.
And again, I'm not apologizing for 343's handling of Halo 4. I just think its weird that people think they should release a new game for a fanbase of a 2007 game. Or a 2010 game. Or a 2004 game. 343 is not in the business to make a Halo game for a bunch of adult gamers. They're in the business of making a new Halo game for new gamers.
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