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[Demoncarnotaur]

Yeah, totally agreed with you on this then.

Maybe this is the gif you were thinking of?

This gif kills me now, it looks so good. Also, it leaves me confused since the Spartans look damn small.

 

[Chettlar]

I gotcha. I think some of that could definitely be useful in campaign and like you said we already see some of it. However, I think it could only teach you so much. Much of Halo's skill comes from knowing the maps. You can't really learn those in campaign, even though Reach's maps were spliced into campaign. Campaign is certainly great for teaching you how weapons work though and prepare you for MP in that way.

Exactly, and there's not really a whole lot you can do about it. You just need to learn maps, and that's something you can do in forge (in 3 anyway. Can you do that in 4?), but yeah you just kind of need to play the maps to learn them. That can't be helped.

But yeah, definitely things like gun handling you can learn in Campaign if it's done right.

I brought up the AR because I never really felt like the Campaign taught me how to use the AR properly. Brutes, for example, you can just hold down the trigger until their shields come off and they fall over dead. Then run to cover (since your shields are probably dead by now) and reload. On harder difficulties, you can't really do that, so I just switched to a different gun.

I really think prometheans, or whatever other new enemies they introduce in Halo 5 are the perfect opportunity to make enemies that teach you how to use yours and their weapons. That's really how enemies should be designed in the first place, in my thinking.

Yeah, totally agreed with you on this then.

Maybe this is the gif you were thinking of?

Bah, I responded and then the evil internet took my post away.

Basically, no my gif is the one I'm thinking of, but I feel like, say, the start is cut off.

However, your gif is probably actually a better example of what I'm thinking of. So satisfying!

Frankles pls

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

I really don't want HUD indicators for power weapons. It let's anyone who's close enough and looking the direction know when you pick one up.

Prior to game release I thought the global ordnance was going to be broadcast like the tactical package "recon" I think it is, so it shows you the location and timer prior to the power weapon dropping. Personally I'd like to see a 10-20 second indicator for all players. Sure it removes the weapon spawning memorisation but it promotes team strategy and dynamic map movement. When they said 3-6 global drop points I had thought it picks one at random, broadcasts it with a timer to all and then disappears once dropped via pod.

I still want this version implemented as part of the core, I feel it allows enemy spawn killing/trapping in a temporary mode, promotes forced map movement, team communication/strategy and keeps that core element of battle for map pick ups. After all you could split your team, create ambushes, allow newer or solo players a chance but still reward team work and slaying skills/map positioning.

@Tashi @Warher

 

[User 73706]

This gif kills me now, it looks so good. Also, it leaves me confused since the Spartans look damn small.

Map movement probably got altered in such a way that they had to shrink the map down to compensate. Remember that Thruster used to send you way farther, for example.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I like this stuff a lot, as long as it's optional. Really highlight it when someone first boots up the game, but don't force anyone to play it if they don't want.

How do complex games like Dota, LoL, and Starcraft handle this stuff?

Yeah DotA's unskippable tutorial is painful and insulting (I played the original DotA for 8 years, I know how to play this. The worst part is since I started on the beta then moved to the full game, it made me do the entire 30+ minute tutorial... again. Grrr.)

I think a basic and quick intro to the multiplayer might be useful--give them a match maybe with scripted bots or a modified map to get the basic feel down. But ultimately like Tashi says a lot of it comes with practice. I'd like to think Halo can be a place where casuals can learn to be competent, if not stellar--I don't think I'd ever touch a game like LoL or DotA now if I hadn't had a casual LAN environment to play it back in high school, because everyone is a prick. And by everyone I mean the whole "it's just a few internet bad apples spoiling the bunch" sentiment is absolutely wrong. Mess up even slightly, deviate from your heroes' build by a single item, and you will be trashed by text or voice.

You could argue something that makes more sense for the competitive crowd is to put the competitive playlist behind some kind of trial wall--you have to play 5 or 10 placement matches before you start getting ranked. (Once again, DotA's crazy requirement of ~100 matches in unranked before you can actually get a rank is stupid.)

Doesn't apply to the actual mechanics, per se, but it'd be a fun little jab at players with halo honor tenure if, upon the tutorial prompt, they pointed out you've already played through certain games. Hell, on the first run-through, they could do a simple schematic prompting Infinity training protocols, and if you said no they'd always be there in the options, but you wouldn't have to run through them.

Palmer and Roland could eye the player as your suit's being calibrated for the first time with some dynamic dialogue:

[If you've made zero progress through any halo game]
Palmer: "Sit tight while we debug your shielding, Marine. Roland, give me an idea on the new recruit's study habits, would you?"
Roland: "Let's see here..." *Roland flips through some hologram archives* "Blank slate, ma'am. Kid should probably be put through a couple drills, stay on the safe side."

(cue yes / no prompt for the player)

[If you've gone through some prior games, could vary depending on what you've done, of course]
Palmer: "Sit tight while we debug your shielding, Marine. Roland, give me an idea on the new recruit's study habits, would you? We might want to boot up those Infinity drills."
Roland: "Let's see here... huh, what do you know, we've got a historian. My records have all the major sims listed - Alpha Halo event, Chief's campaign on Delta, urban scuffles in Voi, field trip to the Ark, and a couple extras for good measure - Noble's last run on Reach and even some sleuthing in New Mombasa after the slipspace event."
Palmer: "I stand corrected, looks like this isn't your first rodeo. What do you say?"

(yes / no)

This would be a really cool thing. I always like the slight tweaking of dialogue according to actions and difficulty. And tying it into your service record would be awesome (although from a practical standpoint, I would assume they can't tell all the games you play by your Waypoint record alone, but maybe MS could allow greater access to players' gamertag metrics.)

Prior to game release I thought the global ordnance was going to be broadcast like the tactical package "recon" I think it is, so it shows you the location and timer prior to the power weapon dropping. Personally I'd like to see a 10-20 second indicator for all players. Sure it removes the weapon spawning memorisation but it promotes team strategy and dynamic map movement. When they said 3-6 global drop points I had thought it picks one at random, broadcasts it with a timer to all and then disappears once dropped via pod.

I still want this version implemented as part of the core, I feel it allows enemy spawn killing/trapping in a temporary mode, promotes forced map movement, team communication/strategy and keeps that core element of battle for map pick ups. After all you could split your team, create ambushes, allow newer or solo players a chance but still reward team work and slaying skills/map positioning.

@Tashi @Warher

I can see the argument that you should remove ordnance notifiers in competitive modes, but personally I think they were a solid idea to implement. Ultimately I think that Halo needs to cater to the lowest denominator--and by that, I don't really mean the worst players, but the worst scenario players will be put into, that of a bunch of randoms with little coordination. Indicators help people learn where stuff appears on the map, rather than getting obliterated by the rocket that seemed to appear magically. Knowing a powerup is going to drop a few seconds before, as Ozzy suggests, at least helps a noncommunicative team be prompted to head for the same goals.

On that subject, we were talking about it during customs I think but the ideal matchmaking screen goes beyond the Halo 2 lobby style. Give me a side screen where I can blow up the map, see a brief description, a map with the locations of power weapons or powerups, and maybe even a short video that walks me through the high points of the level while I wait for voting to finish.

Fact is, a lot of people will never use this stuff, but in that sense it's like marketing--you've got to put a lot of work into grabbing the eyeballs you want. If even a fairly small percentage of players use these tools, that's a net benefit for the game population in my eyes.

 

[Chettlar]

I really don't want HUD indicators for power weapons. It let's anyone who's close enough and looking the direction know when you pick one up.

It's really distracting, I agree. Just let me figure out where they are, or tell me Gears style ^^^^^ where they are.

Unfortunately I think this is another example of them having to do something negative as a result of a bad mechanic. You got the weapon drop things. Well, people aren't going to know where they are without indicators, right? So they had to include those indicators so people knew where the drops were.

Again, just get rid of the weapon drops in the first place, and we don't have to deal with HUD indicators.

Egoraptor goes over that design idea pretty well here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM

Thanks, I'll watch this when I get the chance. If you have any other videos about game design, hit me up. I love that kind of stuff.

Youtube isn't letting me sign right now for some reason. Says cookies are disabled when they certainly are not.

 

[blamite]

Doesn't apply to the actual mechanics, per se, but it'd be a fun little jab at players with halo honor tenure if, upon the tutorial prompt, they pointed out you've already played through certain games. Hell, on the first run-through, they could do a simple schematic prompting Infinity training protocols, and if you said no they'd always be there in the options, but you wouldn't have to run through them.

This sounds cool as long as it's part of the campaign and not a tutorial you have to go through in multiplayer. For multiplayer I think a one time "would you like to play a tutorial?" textbox that you can just skip if you want to would is all that necessary. Put the tutorial somewhere unobtrusive (but not hidden) on the multiplayer menu for people who want to go back to it later. No unskippable cutscenes just to get into matchmaking though. Even the one in 4 is more than I'd like.

Another way to teach your player something is through...I'm not sure what word to use. It's basically "conditioning."

Rayman Legends is a really hard game, but it's never oppressively hard and teaches you how to play it.

Here's one example.

...

I think, then, that there are other things you could do to subtly teach and condition the player to do certain things, such as how to burst fire with the AR. Perhaps enemies (like the prometheans) could be designed more to encourage better handling of the AR.

Make sense?

There's definitely a lot of training that can be done through the campaign, especially in regards to basic mechanics weapons and abilities (the Rayman story is a example of this). Adding some more Spartan-like enemies who move around attack like a human multiplayer opponent would be a cool way to teach general multiplayer combat technique too (this is what Prometheans should be!).

The problem (if it actually is a problem) would seem to be that a lot of the more advanced techniques like trick jumps, grenade bounces, or flag routes don't currently have a method of being taught other than by seeing other players using them, personal experimentation, looking them up online, etc. If this was something 343 decided as worth fixing, the idea of obstacle courses as a separate mode seems like it'd do a good job, although it'd be a lot of work to do for something that the community already does for itself. At the very least a series of "tips 'n' tricks" videos viewable from in-game would be a good start.

 

[Chettlar]

Yeah DotA's unskippable tutorial is painful and insulting (I played the original DotA for 8 years, I know how to play this. The worst part is since I started on the beta then moved to the full game, it made me do the entire 30+ minute tutorial... again. Grrr.)

Tutorials should always always always always always always (you get the picture) be completely optional.

I hate it when they force them in anyway. Like, not allowing you to move until they tell you you can use the left stick, even though that's the way it is in every game ever.

Unless you changed it to southpaw, but if you changed it to southpaw, then you probably already know that it's been switched to right stick.


Random question (sort of), anybody here know anybody who uses southpaw?

 

[Tashi]

I never had to do that DotA tutorial Fuch. I didn't do it in the beta, I didn't do it in full release. I think it's required for some mode or something though.

 

[Chettlar]

This sounds cool as long as it's part of the campaign and not a tutorial you have to go through in multiplayer. For multiplayer I think a one time "would you like to play a tutorial?" textbox that you can just skip if you want to would is all that necessary. Put the tutorial somewhere unobtrusive (but not hidden) on the multiplayer menu for people who want to go back to it later. No unskippable cutscenes just to get into matchmaking though. Even the one in 4 is more than I'd like.


There's definitely a lot of training that can be done through the campaign, especially in regards to basic mechanics weapons and abilities (the Rayman story is a example of this). Adding some more Spartan-like enemies who move around attack like a human multiplayer opponent would be a cool way to teach general multiplayer combat technique too (this is what Prometheans should be!).

Oh my goodness I agree with you so much. Exactly! I mean, this even fits with the whole Prometheans are/are the precursors to humans (lol, not talking about the Precursors), so it makes sense that prometheans would be somewhat human like.

Unless....unless we actually got to fight forerunners themselves -- some of them. Some of them are good, and some of them are bad. Some think they should pass along the torch, as it were, to humans, and others don't, so you have a civil war.

Participating in a great civil battle with some prometheans would be SO BADASS.

I know forerunners are supposed to be all mysterious, but I think, if done properly, this would be a great big awesome epic thing you could have in Halo 6. Some huge battle thing -- classic Halo epic battle.

Unfortunately I get the feeling if they did something like that, it would be so funneled and linear (because the creators want to make sure we experience it a certain way) that it would completely break the whole epicness that it should have had. A pessimistic view, but...I wouldn't be surprised. :/

The problem (if it actually is a problem) would seem to be that a lot of the more advanced techniques like trick jumps, grenade bounces, or flag routes don't currently have a method of being taught other than by seeing other players using them, personal experimentation, looking them up online, etc. If this was something 343 decided as worth fixing, the idea of obstacle courses as a separate mode seems like it'd do a good job, although it'd be a lot of work to do for something that the community already does for itself. At the very least a series of "tips 'n' tricks" videos viewable from in-game would be a good start.

I think a timed obstacle course would actually appeal to people like speed runners. You have timed courses with leadersboards and things. I think that could work.

Damn I love coming up with ideas for things.

 

[User 73706]

This would be a really cool thing. I always like the slight tweaking of dialogue according to actions and difficulty. And tying it into your service record would be awesome (although from a practical standpoint, I would assume they can't tell all the games you play by your Waypoint record alone, but maybe MS could allow greater access to players' gamertag metrics.)

My line of thinking was tying it to the general Xbox Live account, where a campaign completion achievement would warrant that extra string of dialogue. I didn't throw in any Halo Wars references because, presumably, Spirit of Fire hasn't made contact with the UNSC yet. Same with 4, I'd assume that the Requiem campaign is probably still covered in black ink from a recruit perspective.

Random question (sort of), anybody here know anybody who uses southpaw?

I'm a leftie and don't even use it. I tried in Halo 3 but it makes zero sense to my brain.

There's definitely a lot of training that can be done through the campaign, especially in regards to basic mechanics weapons and abilities (the Rayman story is a example of this). Adding some more Spartan-like enemies who move around attack like a human multiplayer opponent would be a cool way to teach general multiplayer combat technique too (this is what Prometheans should be!).

The problem (if it actually is a problem) would seem to be that a lot of the more advanced techniques like trick jumps, grenade bounces, or flag routes don't currently have a method of being taught other than by seeing other players using them, personal experimentation, looking them up online, etc. If this was something 343 decided as worth fixing, the idea of obstacle courses as a separate mode seems like it'd do a good job, although it'd be a lot of work to do for something that the community already does for itself. At the very least a series of "tips 'n' tricks" videos viewable from in-game would be a good start.

Maybe you could fight Insurrectionists (in a simulation or not) in some multiplayer-style maps who have adept usage of map control, leagues beyond what we've seen with campaign enemies so far. Using corner-jumps, grenading weapons to their position so you can't have them, (intelligent, coordinated) teamshooting, etc.

 

[Chettlar]

I'm a leftie and don't even use it. I tried in Halo 3 but it makes zero sense to my brain.

That's the thing. My brother is a leftie, and he's used to it well enough than when there is that random odd game that has it, well since he's used to normal controls all this time, he just doesn't use it.

I suppose if you're a leftie and you're like all professional and stuff and think that your left thumb is so much more accurate than than your right then...yeah, I guess that's the only type of situation like this I can think of.

Maybe you could fight Insurrectionists (in a simulation or not) in some multiplayer-style maps who have adept usage of map control, leagues beyond what we've seen with campaign enemies so far. Using corner-jumps, grenading weapons to their position so you can't have them, (intelligent, coordinated) teamshooting, etc.

I don't like the idea of shooting Humans in campaign. I think human-like enemies, like prometheans (though not too much like Humans) would work, but again:

Keep it subtle. I don't want it obvious I'm fighting enemies so that then I'll know how to do multiplayer. I don't like that idea at all. Plus I think it's restrictive. Why not make an alien if you can, and thus be more free with how you can craft it in such a way to teach the player. Just have some subtle things -- the important things -- that teach you how to play.

That Rayman Legends thing taught me not just how to do that situation but also other ones that were very different, but similar enough that what I had learned applied. I think the enemies in Halo should be like this in that case. It's certainly possible, if difficult to figure out how to do right, but then...is anything in game design easy?

 

[Fuchsdh]

I never had to do that DotA tutorial Fuch. I didn't do it in the beta, I didn't do it in full release. I think it's required for some mode or something though.

I dunno what game mode--I tried to skip it, even tried the console commands that they apparently patched. The game's set up to hide the rest of the GUI until you complete it. I only got back into DotA this past month or so, maybe between the beta and recently they added it as a requirement.

Random question (sort of), anybody here know anybody who uses southpaw?

I'm a leftie, have always used Default every Halo game. I'm fine mousing right-handed too, that and games have never struck me as really requiring or benefiting from one hand over the other.

 

[kittens]

Maybe there could be HUD indicators for power weapons that are visible only to brand new players. Like, they could be visible the first five times you play a map, and then never again.

The lemons talk is a really concise way to handle that bit of game deisgn.

Never heard of it.

 

[Fuchsdh]

However, your gif is probably actually a better example of what I'm thinking of. So satisfying!

Frankles pls

I think part of the reason it looks so satisfying is it's playing back at a frame rate greater than 30fps--it's smoother than any Halo game (just look at the reload.)

 

[Chettlar]

I'm a leftie, have always used Default every Halo game. I'm fine mousing right-handed too, that and games have never struck me as really requiring or benefiting from one hand over the other.

Yeah, you're probably just conditioned to it. In that case I don't really know why a developer would include it.

Oh well, I probably would include southpaw if I were making a game, just because I can, and I know it sucks to be in a minority that can't play something because the developer didn't take two minutes to add something that would let you.

Same with invert Y axis. I never use it because it makes no sense to me, but I would always include it, since I know it's gamebreaking for some people.

Maybe there could be HUD indicators for power weapons that are visible only to brand new players. Like, they could be visible the first five times you play a map, and then never again.

Oh! Well duh!

Just allow players to turn it off in options, like B: Infinite or whatever.

I would certainly forsake that for some volume options though... I want to be able to turn up that awesome music! Halo music during combat is usually way to quite it for me. I wish I could turn it up just a notch.

I think part of the reason it looks so satisfying is it's playing back at a frame rate greater than 30fps--it's smoother than any Halo game (just look at the reload.)

Well then 60 fps here we come.

I am really grateful to Frankie for pushing for that (I assume he did, right?). It's a great move. Besides, Halo One will look gorgeous for those screenshots anyway.

Here's hoping it's 1080p as well.

And with water tessellation (like in Halo 3 and Viva Pinata but refined) just cus it's cool.

 

[User 73706]

I'm a leftie, have always used Default every Halo game. I'm fine mousing right-handed too, that and games have never struck me as really requiring or benefiting from one hand over the other.

Agreed. I can think of exactly one game where I'd be better off using my left hand.

 

[Mistel]

Random question (sort of), anybody here know anybody who uses southpaw?

I'm ambidextrous with a preference for my left, but southpaw feels weird as the model doesn't change with the control scheme. So I stuck to default controls, as it makes me more comfortable.

 

[Nebula]

I think part of the reason it looks so satisfying is it's playing back at a frame rate greater than 30fps--it's smoother than any Halo game (just look at the reload.)

Halo on Xbox One/5/Cloak Chronicles is at 60FPS so it should look nice and smooth. I'm hoping that doesn't end up with us seeing more .JPG skyboxes.

 

[Chettlar]

I'm ambidextrous with a preference for my left, but southpaw feels weird as the model doesn't change with the control scheme. So I stuck to default controls, as it make me more comfortable.

Bunch of people who can use their left hands here. Cool.

Agreed. I can think of exactly one game where I'd be better off using my left hand.

GOTY right there, yo.

"11/10, would use with my left hand again."

 

[Fuchsdh]

Halo on Xbox One/5/Cloak Chronicles is at 60FPS so it should look nice and smooth. I'm hoping that doesn't end up with us seeing more .JPG skyboxes.

At the very least, all that extra RAM on the XBONE means that you'll get far less compressed .JPG skyboxes

 

[SHIFTYkiwi]

At the very least, all that extra RAM on the XBONE means that you'll get far less compressed .JPG skyboxes

And more dynamic set pieces on maps e.g. High Ground's gate.

 

[User 73706]

At the very least, all that extra RAM on the XBONE means that you'll get far less compressed .JPG skyboxes

 

[Chettlar]

 

[Karl2177]

Damn, y'all are on fire tonight.

Also I think there are better ways to make players learn the game rather than making the game easier for them. Tutorials, training modes, training playlists and closer skill matchmaking. How about you create obstacle courses for each map that teaches you specific jumps and sightlines. Jump on this box, shoot this target here, throw a grenade off of this wall. Give points for speed and accuracy, attach a leader board, add multiple difficulties. Grab this flag, run here, jump here.

I like this. Add in a timer for each map and you've just boosted the speedrunning community and added something that's helpful for multiplayer.

StarCraft 2 I believe has tutorials but I'm not 100% sure. My guess is yes. They also have a skip-able training playlist where you play a certain amount of games where the maps are slightly different and the game is played at a slower speed. I skipped those because I felt they were a little too different from the core experience.

Totally agree about not forcing someone.

To clarify: SC2(at least HotS anyways) has a training playlist, and then a scenario playlist. Then for actual matchmaking, there's Social and Ranked.

Doesn't apply to the actual mechanics, per se, but it'd be a fun little jab at players with halo honor tenure if, upon the tutorial prompt, they pointed out you've already played through certain games. Hell, on the first run-through, they could do a simple schematic prompting Infinity training protocols, and if you said no they'd always be there in the options, but you wouldn't have to run through them.

I like this too. It would definitely be a good addition to Waypoint and Halo 5.

Another way to teach your player something is through...I'm not sure what word to use. It's basically "conditioning."

-snip-

In fact, Halo already sort of does this. Campaign does a good job of conditioning you on your grenade throws -- when to through them and how often mostly -- so when you get into multiplayer, grenade throwing is second nature and I don't even think about it.

I think, then, that there are other things you could do to subtly teach and condition the player to do certain things, such as how to burst fire with the AR. Perhaps enemies (like the prometheans) could be designed more to encourage better handling of the AR.

Make sense?

I can dig this as well.

Prior to game release I thought the global ordnance was going to be broadcast like the tactical package "recon" I think it is, so it shows you the location and timer prior to the power weapon dropping. Personally I'd like to see a 10-20 second indicator for all players. Sure it removes the weapon spawning memorisation but it promotes team strategy and dynamic map movement. When they said 3-6 global drop points I had thought it picks one at random, broadcasts it with a timer to all and then disappears once dropped via pod.

I still want this version implemented as part of the core, I feel it allows enemy spawn killing/trapping in a temporary mode, promotes forced map movement, team communication/strategy and keeps that core element of battle for map pick ups. After all you could split your team, create ambushes, allow newer or solo players a chance but still reward team work and slaying skills/map positioning.

@Tashi @Warher

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2554/4137274551_1d12ab907d_m.jpg

I can dig this, as long as it is a custom option.

I think a basic and quick intro to the multiplayer might be useful--give them a match maybe with scripted bots or a modified map to get the basic feel down. But ultimately like Tashi says a lot of it comes with practice. I'd like to think Halo can be a place where casuals can learn to be competent, if not stellar--I don't think I'd ever touch a game like LoL or DotA now if I hadn't had a casual LAN environment to play it back in high school, because everyone is a prick. And by everyone I mean the whole "it's just a few internet bad apples spoiling the bunch" sentiment is absolutely wrong. Mess up even slightly, deviate from your heroes' build by a single item, and you will be trashed by text or voice.

You could argue something that makes more sense for the competitive crowd is to put the competitive playlist behind some kind of trial wall--you have to play 5 or 10 placement matches before you start getting ranked. (Once again, DotA's crazy requirement of ~100 matches in unranked before you can actually get a rank is stupid.)

-snip-

I can see the argument that you should remove ordnance notifiers in competitive modes, but personally I think they were a solid idea to implement. Ultimately I think that Halo needs to cater to the lowest denominator--and by that, I don't really mean the worst players, but the worst scenario players will be put into, that of a bunch of randoms with little coordination. Indicators help people learn where stuff appears on the map, rather than getting obliterated by the rocket that seemed to appear magically. Knowing a powerup is going to drop a few seconds before, as Ozzy suggests, at least helps a noncommunicative team be prompted to head for the same goals.

On that subject, we were talking about it during customs I think but the ideal matchmaking screen goes beyond the Halo 2 lobby style. Give me a side screen where I can blow up the map, see a brief description, a map with the locations of power weapons or powerups, and maybe even a short video that walks me through the high points of the level while I wait for voting to finish.

Fact is, a lot of people will never use this stuff, but in that sense it's like marketing--you've got to put a lot of work into grabbing the eyeballs you want. If even a fairly small percentage of players use these tools, that's a net benefit for the game population in my eyes.

I can dig this stuff too.

I may or may not be stealing these things for one of my upcoming articles.

 

[kittens]

I like this. Add in a timer for each map and you've just boosted the speedrunning community and added something that's helpful for multiplayer.

Brilliant. Ship it, 343.

 

[Mix]

I know I don't hardly ever input into real conversations much, but you guys are my favorite people in the world. I miss playing games with you guys

 

[Tashi]

I know I don't hardly ever input into real conversations much, but you guys are my favorite people in the world. I miss playing games with you guys

Did you just have your very first beer or something?

Spoiler

<3

 

[wwm0nkey]

http://www.quakelive.com/#!home

Download it and try out the tutorial. It's fantastic.

Everyone should download and play this. Its the best form of free to play ever....its just free

 

[kittens]

Everyone should download and play this. Its the best form of free to play ever....its just free

My housemate is nuts about it, but I just can't stand the game. Cool profit model, though, for sure.

Edit: Mix <3

 

[Ora]

I know I don't hardly ever input into real conversations much, but you guys are my favorite people in the world. I miss playing games with you guys

How's standup going?

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

I know I don't hardly ever input into real conversations much, but you guys are my favorite people in the world. I miss playing games with you guys

You're alright too.

Spoiler

jk buddy, i know things have been going rough lately, but ilu bro

 

[Havok]

Prior to game release I thought the global ordnance was going to be broadcast like the tactical package "recon" I think it is, so it shows you the location and timer prior to the power weapon dropping. Personally I'd like to see a 10-20 second indicator for all players. Sure it removes the weapon spawning memorisation but it promotes team strategy and dynamic map movement.

We have more or less direct experience of this being a total shitshow when implemented in Halo and applied to standard, cycled power weapon spawn locations. Invasion Slayer and Skirmish had a 10 second timer after the point was captured, and then power weapons spawned in. While maybe in a perfect team environment people would have had strong communication and set up ambushes or whatever around it, in reality people just acted like internet assholes and crowded around the spot holding the pickup button. It was a goddamn nightmare.

I love the Gears map overlay, because it presents information to the players and then leaves it up to them to give enough of a shit about the game to remember that information while under fire. Tailor it by adding in spawn time information and you've got a great balance between surfacing useful information to new or less dedicated players and rewarding players that take the time to internalize that information.

I still want this version implemented as part of the core, I feel it allows enemy spawn killing/trapping in a temporary mode, promotes forced map movement, team communication/strategy and keeps that core element of battle for map pick ups. After all you could split your team, create ambushes, allow newer or solo players a chance but still reward team work and slaying skills/map positioning.

I very, very seriously doubt you would see any of those benefits with any just about any form of the global ordnance system in a team-based environment, especially given how restrictive it would have to be on the map design for it not to be absolutely frustrating. I mean, random rune spawns in DOTA work because A) the vision mechanics of that genre, B) there are only two spawn locations, and C) they are in complete no man's land - this is a benefit that game is able to enjoy because they have one map in that game, it's just the DOTA map. There isn't really that dynamic in a shooter, because there isn't always that kind of very strong territorial break directly in the middle of every single map. There simply aren't enough truly neutral locations on a given shooter map to make that work without having spawn locations that are advantageous to one team or another. You can get away with more on maps with perfect symmetry, but Halo's map rosters have always had significant amounts of strongly asymmetric maps where that is just going to be an incredibly frustrating experience. When you take spawn information out of the players' hands, the experience stops being predictable (not in the sense of it being boring) - they're no longer easily capable of forming plans around the static elements of the match - and instead becomes a very reactive scramble that in a lot of ways, is far less rewarding than seeing a well-laid plan come to fruition. That has always been my central complaint with the global ordnance system since the day it was announced.

I think it has much greater potential to function properly in a free-for-all environment since it's already a much more rotational mode where players are intrinsically less likely to hole up since they have to be extremely aggressive to be successful. In a team game with varying types and sizes of maps, it's just a recipe for disaster.

 

[Chettlar]

I can dig this as well.

See? I'm not always a terrible poster.

I may or may not be stealing these things for one of my upcoming articles.

I'd be interested to see how you do it. Link us to it, naturally. Where do you post your articles do? (Forgive me if I'm out of sync with ya'll on this kind of stuff).

And meh, you could just quote us. Or even just mention something ambiguous as to the things that got you to thinking? Even "On the internet" or something slightly more specific "From speaking with some of the HaloGAF community." etc.

I just want this kind of stuff in the game so Halo can be better, so I don't care a whole whole lot.

 

[Nebula]

I hope someone at 343 has taken some of this feedback and the ideas you guys have into account and relay it to those who can use it most effectively.

Some wonderful posts today folks.

 

[Chettlar]

I hope someone at 343 has taken some of this feedback and the ideas you guys have into account and relay it to those who can use it most effectively.

Some wonderful posts today folks.

I agree.

I hope I didn't completely scare Frankie off with that last big argument. :/

I hope he comes back and reads page 179.

Good stuff guys.

Doesn't apply to the actual mechanics, per se, but it'd be a fun little jab at players with halo honor tenure if, upon the tutorial prompt, they pointed out you've already played through certain games. Hell, on the first run-through, they could do a simple schematic prompting Infinity training protocols, and if you said no they'd always be there in the options, but you wouldn't have to run through them.

Palmer and Roland could eye the player as your suit's being calibrated for the first time with some dynamic dialogue:

[If you've made zero progress through any halo game]
Palmer: "Sit tight while we debug your shielding, Marine. Roland, give me an idea on the new recruit's study habits, would you?"
Roland: "Let's see here..." *Roland flips through some hologram archives* "Blank slate, ma'am. Kid should probably be put through a couple drills, stay on the safe side."

(cue yes / no prompt for the player)

[If you've gone through some prior games, could vary depending on what you've done, of course]
Palmer: "Sit tight while we debug your shielding, Marine. Roland, give me an idea on the new recruit's study habits, would you? We might want to boot up those Infinity drills."
Roland: "Let's see here... huh, what do you know, we've got a historian. My records have all the major sims listed - Alpha Halo event, Chief's campaign on Delta, urban scuffles in Voi, field trip to the Ark, and a couple extras for good measure - Noble's last run on Reach and even some sleuthing in New Mombasa after the slipspace event."
Palmer: "I stand corrected, looks like this isn't your first rodeo. What do you say?"

(yes / no)

Just now actually read this. I like it a lot. Doesn't seem to far off from the intros to Halo CE and Halo 2.

 

[aHebrewMenagerie]

I hope someone at 343 has taken some of this feedback and the ideas you guys have into account and relay it to those who can use it most effectively.

Some wonderful posts today folks.

Exactly, I would take the time and add my two cents to each of the ideas, but they were actually pretty damn good. GG HaloGAF.

 

[Ghazi]

Talking about all this tutorial stuff, when development of H5 is probably way past that and has been ramping up since H4. While discussion like that is healthy, and may help for the future, it's probably better to talk about ideas for overall MP or what we hope campaign story and structure may be like.

 

[Tashi]

I agree.

I hope I didn't completely scare Frankie off with that last big argument. :/

I hope he comes back and reads page 179.

Good stuff guys.

I'm not sure that there's anything that would scare him off of GAF lol

 

[kittens]

I'm not sure that there's anything that would scare him off of GAF lol

Seriously. If I were him I'd have all of HaloGAF on ignore by now.

 

[User 73706]

Seriously. If I were him I'd have all of HaloGAF on ignore by now.

karl is the real stinkles confirmed

 

[HTupolev]

I brought up the AR because I never really felt like the Campaign taught me how to use the AR properly. Brutes, for example, you can just hold down the trigger until their shields come off and they fall over dead. Then run to cover (since your shields are probably dead by now) and reload. On harder difficulties, you can't really do that, so I just switched to a different gun.

You switched to a different gun? Sounds like the campaign is telling you how to use AR properly...

Unless you're Rockslider, at which point, carry on.

Here's hoping it's 1080p as well.

And with water tessellation (like in Halo 3 and Viva Pinata but refined) just cus it's cool.

Geometrically-animated water can sit it out until the dynamic lighting at least gets spotlights and specularity.

The water may be technically inferior in various ways to Halo 3's, and that's a bummer, but the dynamic lights get stomped on by Halo 1's, and that's a joke.

If Halo 5's scorpion uses two floaty point lights to fake the front spotlight in the same way that Halo 4's does, I'm going to wonder about 343i's graphical priorities.

 

[Mix]

Did you just have your very first beer or something?

Spoiler

<3

Haha, nah man, I've drunk posted before I dreamed about you that night

How's standup going?

Pretty good man, thanks for asking. I have a show this Friday, well an open mic but still. Trying nothing but new shit.

You're alright too.

Spoiler

jk buddy, i know things have been going rough lately, but ilu bro

Thanks man. Things suck donkey dick, I'm just trying to hold it together.

 

[feel]

Haha, nah man, I've drunk posted before I dreamed about you that night.

Go on

 

[Karl2177]

See? I'm not always a terrible poster.

Never said you were.

I'd be interested to see how you do it. Link us to it, naturally. Where do you post your articles do? (Forgive me if I'm out of sync with ya'll on this kind of stuff).

And meh, you could just quote us. Or even just mention something ambiguous as to the things that got you to thinking? Even "On the internet" or something slightly more specific "From speaking with some of the HaloGAF community." etc.

I just want this kind of stuff in the game so Halo can be better, so I don't care a whole whole lot.

I usually just drop stuff here and then repost it on my blog or vice verse. And most of the time, I drop a name to whenever someone comes up with something that I like.

karl is the real stinkles confirmed

Heh. Frank would be jealous of my hair.

Anyways, I cleared my ignore list, and there's only one person on it.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Anyways, I cleared my ignore list, and there's only one person on it.

Somebody tell Karl that I completely understand.

Anyone?

Hello?

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

We have more or less direct experience of this being a total shitshow when implemented in Halo and applied to standard, cycled power weapon spawn locations. Invasion Slayer and Skirmish had a 10 second timer after the point was captured, and then power weapons spawned in. While maybe in a perfect team environment people would have had strong communication and set up ambushes or whatever around it, in reality people just acted like internet assholes and crowded around the spot holding the pickup button. It was a goddamn nightmare.

I love the Gears map overlay, because it presents information to the players and then leaves it up to them to give enough of a shit about the game to remember that information while under fire. Tailor it by adding in spawn time information and you've got a great balance between surfacing useful information to new or less dedicated players and rewarding players that take the time to internalize that information.

Firstly, thanks for the detailed replies. One quick note is your reply is very slayer focused and we'll just chat about that for now, to me objective is better off with dynamic spawns. Also I'm not trying to kill classic arena Halo, I'm just trying to expand on it or other game modes. I too love Halo 2/3 arena on map stuff, it just won't return players en masse population wise to just rehash a Halo 2 or 3 though.

What you're describing is present in the old CE/2/3 timed spawns without indicators too. Remember the rush or campers near spawn reset times for OS when it's respawning on The Pit or Guardian or camo on Zanzibar/Last Resort? How about rockets on Narrows? It's one and the same in terms of the issue you raise. Christ the hardcore and pros used to have timers for this shit, they literally had an external device to best other players...that's pretty shit and not internalising at all.

The full fleshed out version I would like to see is fixed spawns on initial start for that arena balance and pregame team organising then subsequent spawns go dynamic with random selection from a few fixed locations. So why go dynamic in place of fixed spawns? Take what you say as true, a random team rushes the captured point to contest the goodies coming down then your organised team should be ready to defend or ambush. Exactly what I said becomes true; the organised team wins due to communication and strategy and dynamic map control with a temporary tangible reward. It also gave the randoms or disadvantaged team a chance to grab the goodies, they know what is happening in advance and that they should get there. By design you're sort of building in teamwork and allowing developers the ability to have set locations purpose built. Further what I'm describing isn't a capture point first so that double up on map location focus isn't there.

The more skilled team wins out far more often than just some randoms waiting to push buttons as you describe.

I played a fair amount of Invasion, less Invasion Slayer and a solid amount of the latter Reach invasion where there were stages, so to speak, you know the loadouts scaled with each stage unlock. We used to play in half to full parties for that quite often, almost always when we had 5 or 6 waiting for more to join for BTB instead. I don't recall myself or one of my friends having the sort of issues you're describing to the point of ruining the gametype. Sure players wait at the spawns after capture but during the timer, that's the whole point and old school on map weapons is actually no different regarding your point. When the next capture point showed up the map focus for both teams shifts and alleviates vehicle spawn killing. Again organised teams are rewarded and less organised teams aren't stuck in spawn killing hell for the rest of the match entirety e.g. a permanent reward like the MLG of Halo 2/3 (when you're talking about team vs. random matchups).

I very, very seriously doubt you would see any of those benefits with any just about any form of the global ordnance system in a team-based environment, especially given how restrictive it would have to be on the map design for it not to be absolutely frustrating. I mean, random rune spawns in DOTA work because A) the vision mechanics of that genre, B) there are only two spawn locations, and C) they are in complete no man's land - this is a benefit that game is able to enjoy because they have one map in that game, it's just the DOTA map. There isn't really that dynamic in a shooter, because there isn't always that kind of very strong territorial break directly in the middle of every single map. There simply aren't enough truly neutral locations on a given shooter map to make that work without having spawn locations that are advantageous to one team or another. You can get away with more on maps with perfect symmetry, but Halo's map rosters have always had significant amounts of strongly asymmetric maps where that is just going to be an incredibly frustrating experience. When you take spawn information out of the players' hands, the experience stops being predictable (not in the sense of it being boring) - they're no longer easily capable of forming plans around the static elements of the match - and instead becomes a very reactive scramble that in a lot of ways, is far less rewarding than seeing a well-laid plan come to fruition. That has always been my central complaint with the global ordnance system since the day it was announced.

I think it has much greater potential to function properly in a free-for-all environment since it's already a much more rotational mode where players are intrinsically less likely to hole up since they have to be extremely aggressive to be successful. In a team game with varying types and sizes of maps, it's just a recipe for disaster.

The classic arena reality of this is things like players using external timers (as mentioned above), camping spawns and farming weapons which leads to spawn killing and lopsided games. Further entire matches of dominance from map control, power weapons, vehicle spawns and even objective holding to farm kills is produced by this. Sure it's fun for the 1-5% but you have to ask yourself for 1/2 buddies or less organised teams going into a 4-8 player playlist how is this fun or competitive for them? It's not. I also feel Halo arena style was very much territorial, you fought for map control. All I'm saying is force some occasional map movement through fixed then dynamic weapon spawns to alleviate lopsided games and long periods of spawn killing. Territorial stuff was Narrows top mid, The Pit pushing/towers/rockets/os, Zanzibar beach wall etc.

I think the reply is a little limited in scope, when you're talking about limited maps/design the ability of future games or HX1 has room to develop around new maps & new mechanics or dynamic spawns. It's not locked in the old maps or methods of play. As for perfect symmetry again this relates to slayer specifically, where objective 1-sided quite happily produces some amazing games. For me personally and my chosen playlist(s)/parties it exceeds slayer by offering both types of map design and elements e.g. round based offense/defense and in terms of default a more dynamic game than a small symmetrical game every time.

Again dynamic spawns based on offense/defense whether slayer or objective based aren't really in your replies. You're basically using the old system to create an argument. The new systems can have new modes to cater for such systems by design from the get go. Regarding FFA I agree it suits that very well but I believe it has its potential place in team games too. For example imagine a new dedis mode with 32 or 64 or 128 players and dynamic maps that scale based on the number of players or squads etc. These sorts of dynamic systems are more advantageous by design. What about far more interactive maps that dedis could bring? Potentially dynamic spawns could promote the interactivity or triggers for these events or map shape shifting etc.

I haven't even touched on things growing stale either. Over the course of say a 1-2 year lifecycle of being the current matchmaking game having dynamic elements enables newer players to enter a game 12 months after release without the old Halo 2/3 elements of being obliterated by gamers who have played since release day one. It also doesn't degrade the individual or team skill gap.

It may not be valid for an across the board inclusion but I feel it has merit in some decent percentage of modes for HX1 for example.

 

[heckfu]

Haha, nah man, I've drunk posted before I dreamed about you that night

welp

 

[Nowise10]

I found nearly every idea I read in the last page or so, to be just silly.

 

[kittens]

I found nearly every idea I read in the last page or so, to be just silly.

343's goal of making Halo more accessible for new players is a good thing to think about. But the way they implemented it made for an awful Halo game, and in many ways worked against their goal. Personal ordnance, random weapon drops, or losing a skirmish just cause you don't have the right AA / perk don't feel fair. I want to lose a fight because my opponent is more skilled, not because I got a bad dice roll.

In-game ways of helping players develop their skill is the type of accessibility I want to see. A lot of the ideas discussed aren't good, but a lot are, and it's fun to talk about regardless.