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Halo |OT19| 793 Posts, And None Worth Reading
- Thread starter Ozzy Onya A2Z
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Mace Griffin
Neo Member
I don't know about anybody else but I have much more fun playing a competitive game casually than a casual game casually. I can't play any casual multiplayer game for any length of time, there is nothing engaging and it becomes boring. I would actually rather not game. If I'm feeling like something different I'll work my way though my single player game backlog.
The Henery
Member
"Not do it in a way where pro gamers [lol, 'pro' gamers] could come in and dominate the environment, by knowing the exact way to start a match"
So devs are just openly shitting on trueskill now? This quote is quite outrageous. What does MS think of their exclusive xb1 game having a dev with nil faith in their much lauded skill matching system? Frankie? Surely a pro player would never match an inexperienced participant.
Video games are all but dead to me when a player knowing how to play the game is a problem to equalise. The show's over.
Plus Titanfall looks fucking terrible. Grey skies, grey buildings, grey mechs. Grey weapons. Ads. I was considering buying it on neogaf hype alone; I've seen several posters claim it's going to redefine the genre and kill off COD. It truly must be a game you have to play to 'get' because the footage makes the game look toilet water bland.
Mace Griffin
Neo Member
Haha. So True.
Syphon Filter
Member
what you mean creep fps? also isnt there a rank like cod?
If anyone wants to watch TitanFall, Maximillian is streaming it!
Syphon Filter
Member
isn't the killstreaks the titan only?
Misunderstood the burn card system as a replacement for killstreaks. It's apparently different in that you earn perks through gameplay that you can then use once in a game.
edit: also fuck this quote from the polygon article
Mace Griffin
Neo Member
Just found this absolute gem.
Syphon Filter
Member
ugh although i didnt expect the game to be competitive.
xxjuicesxx
Member
WTF is a game if its not competitive?
WTF is a game if its not competitive?
I was going to make a joke, then I realized that even Uno is more competitive (and has an alive tournament scene) than Halo 4.
WTF is a game if its not competitive?
Part of the "everybody wins" mentality that currently pervades gaming right now. It's unfair that your "gaming privilege" of playing everyday and being better at the game should allow you to shit on someone who can only play one hour a week.
Every piece of news that comes out about this game Kills the hype. Competitive FPS truly is dead.
Syphon Filter
Member
Good points. I wonder how come things are like that and devs didn't think that way back in the days. It's why i stick to old pc shooters for competition.
Poker Face
Member
Killer Instinct and the rest of fighting game genre says hi
Syphon Filter
Member
I think he meant FPS mainly. Also isn't only KI competitive, SF and others i dont think so.
The Henery
Member
I mean a gun that auto headshots when aimed at the knee... it's beyond parody.
I watched the titanfall stream. Some elements do look fun, particularly the movement. Crucially though, I didn't see one guy come back from being seen first. There also seemed to be some form of camo on demand.
Go and watch this instead twitch.tv/naded
He just pulled off a ridiculous overkill, man's playing out of his mind. This game still looks more like the future to me than titanfall. Titanfall, aesthetically, looks like generic PC shooter 130 from 1998. With better graphics of course.
I watched the titanfall stream. Some elements do look fun, particularly the movement. Crucially though, I didn't see one guy come back from being seen first. There also seemed to be some form of camo on demand.
Go and watch this instead twitch.tv/naded
He just pulled off a ridiculous overkill, man's playing out of his mind. This game still looks more like the future to me than titanfall. Titanfall, aesthetically, looks like generic PC shooter 130 from 1998. With better graphics of course.
That exterm just now, though!
Was kind of alluding to FPS mostly, but even then, fighting games aren't exactly immune to the same belief/mentality. Killer Instinct is more of an outlier because Double Helix knew they would need the support of the fighting game community. I sort of look at it like how Smash Bros Brawl is compared to the previous two, games like MvC3. Heck I remember Capcom vs SNK 2, the EO version had like supers and moves mapped to the analog stick so anyone could pull them off.
The Henery
Member
Haha 60 seconds after I posted. He barely got excited for it either. The shaved head has awoken beast mode it seems.
Syphon Filter
Member
What did people think about the plasma pistol in H4? Isnt it weird that if you hold a charce sometimes a grunt can survive it? Also if you hold it long enough it can waste the whole charge and shoot on its own.
Prinz Eugn
Member
Yeah, I guess my attitude is that's probably going to be fun for what it is.
Unlike Halo they obviously had a plan to make it that way from the beginning instead of piling features on established base gameplay: "Well we have to include Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades since they were in the previous games and people liked them so much, but non-power weapons have to be in loadouts, ergo Plasma Pistols and Plasma Grenades have to be in loadouts."
I can't either anymore but compared to the whole (mostly casual) gamersphere that's an outlier playstyle. I don't get why people are so shocked that Titanfall is obviously aimed at the BKs that comprise 95% of the FPS market.
Well they made like eight Fast & Furious movies too... dumbing down to catch bigger markets isn't exactly a phenomenon limited to the game industry. I'm pretty pessimistic about the whole thing; I think truly competitive FPS's will become increasingly niche. It's just too tempting to throw randomness and rubber banding into a game to keep most players happy (they are consumers after all, and you want to keep them in a good mood so they'll buy your shit).
I think the best we can hope for is a competitive FPS becoming popular enough through tournaments, etc that emphasize the competitive aspects to make an impact on sales. I really hope they're going to try to do that with Halo 5 (they did hire Tashi, Bravo, and Ghostayame).
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
So correct me if I'm wrong...y'all think a hyper competitive "balanced & very skilled" game, where the top 1-3% rule every outcome, is going to attract a massive following and retain them for years at a time?
Am I getting your Titanfall/Halo comments on the money here?
Am I getting your Titanfall/Halo comments on the money here?
You bitch about population incessantly but concede nothing in game development or mechanics or player rewards to attract or retain "lesser" players. *shakes head
Is this a serious post? You've heard of League of Legends, Dota II, or even Dark Souls right? Were you not there for the "flappy bird" nonsense the past few weeks?
That's a bit different though. The amount of films means they're milking something to try and get as much money from it. Though I kind of get what you mean about expanding the niche of import tuning and street racing to turning it into a wider appealing heist type movie etc.
Apply a lot of this to things like sports games and you see how ridiculous it is. How much would Heckfu or Tawpgun play FIFA if they spend all this time learning the ins and outs of the game, the strategies of the sport, if there is randomness added to the game like their net becomes bigger for 30 seconds (more easy to score goals), players can get speed boosts at times. And that the reason for it is to add randomness and to give people who aren't good at the game a chance to compete.
Ragnarok Flames
Banned
Waypoint.
ding ding ding
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Well DOTA is very popular in Europe and Asia, USA is less than 20% of the player base. Halo is more USA dominated, I think it still is? Those examples are also PC based games, yes?
I not against a highly skilful game but there is nothing wrong with allowing lesser skilled or newer players some random elements say 1 or 2 times out of 10 so they like the game and keep playing to get better.
xxjuicesxx
Member
Ozzy thats not exactly the way it boils down. Just because a game is super competitive doesn't mean only 1-3% can win and or HAVE FUN.
If you have a proper ranking system people can play competitively AT THEIR LEVEL therefore playing competitively and having fun and feeling good about each rank up when they finally get better.
Its a long process.
Like in Halo 2 I got destroyed often but I spent my time going onlin, watching gameplay, watching montages, finding friends on forums to help me, and eventually I ranked up and up.
So you play competitively at your level. Even if you are just a 15 out of 50 or whatever the current system is. The point is to get close games.
So no, Competitive doesn't equal niche. Go back to Waypoint IMO where you can threaten to ban people for non-constructive posts in threads that by topic are non-constructive. What a sad sad power trip.
In fact solving something thats very tough after a long period of time often feels like one of the greatest things a game can present to you. IE: Dark Souls
If you have a proper ranking system people can play competitively AT THEIR LEVEL therefore playing competitively and having fun and feeling good about each rank up when they finally get better.
Its a long process.
Like in Halo 2 I got destroyed often but I spent my time going onlin, watching gameplay, watching montages, finding friends on forums to help me, and eventually I ranked up and up.
So you play competitively at your level. Even if you are just a 15 out of 50 or whatever the current system is. The point is to get close games.
So no, Competitive doesn't equal niche. Go back to Waypoint IMO where you can threaten to ban people for non-constructive posts in threads that by topic are non-constructive. What a sad sad power trip.
In fact solving something thats very tough after a long period of time often feels like one of the greatest things a game can present to you. IE: Dark Souls
Syphon Filter
Member
Well DOTA is very popular in Europe and Asia, USA is less than 20% of the player base. Halo is more USA dominated, I think it still is? Those examples are also PC based games, yes?
I not against a highly skilful game but there is nothing wrong with allowing lesser skilled or newer players some random elements say 1 or 2 times out of 10 so they like the game and keep playing to get better.
Look how Bungie approached Halo 2. Not everyone was good at it but had fun with it. With random you cant get better,it's random...
Well DOTA is very popular in Europe and Asia, USA is less than 20% of the player base. Halo is more USA dominated, I think it still is? Those examples are also PC based games, yes?
I not against a highly skilful game but there is nothing wrong with allowing lesser skilled or newer players some random elements say 1 or 2 times out of 10 so they like the game and keep playing to get better.
What does location have to do with anything? In this context...nothing.
And where are you getting your stats of '1 or 2 times out of 10'? Those are arbitrarily picked and RANDOM doesn't make a fun or balanced game. That's science.
It did that in Reach. I like it. Was a little cheap for people to just hold the charge in until they saw an enemy. Makes people be a little more aware while using it
Plus why are you charging a shot for grunts anyway?
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Enough with the mod/waypoint crap, I'm a default objective/BTB competitive player playing at the best levels of 2/3, check my player history if you like. My points of view are as valid as everyone else. I raise this points to discuss them, not to be 100% right with this point of view. You know mature discussion, oh wait I forgot where I was posting.
Mods time to reel the usual HaloGAF BS back in please.
Also the games you mention are PC based, in 2010 for the USA alone PC gamers were listed as 170 million install base. Think about how large PC+Steam is in 2014 with respect to your comments about DOTA/LOL.
With respect to levelling the playing field, which is my case in point, not randomness think about sports from school sports to social sports to competitive sports to the elite 1% professional sports. All of these have social modes/versions and hyper competitive professional versions too: F1, Golf, Tennis, Soccer etc. That's all I'm trying to discuss here, not removal of competitive modes and not 100% random either. Going back to a core Halo 2 game isn't going to provide the population to sustain itself. If it did we'd still having massive followings for CE, 2 or 3. They dwindled in the modern gaming landscape, specifically the modern Halo xbox console landscape.
Mods time to reel the usual HaloGAF BS back in please.
Also the games you mention are PC based, in 2010 for the USA alone PC gamers were listed as 170 million install base. Think about how large PC+Steam is in 2014 with respect to your comments about DOTA/LOL.
With respect to levelling the playing field, which is my case in point, not randomness think about sports from school sports to social sports to competitive sports to the elite 1% professional sports. All of these have social modes/versions and hyper competitive professional versions too: F1, Golf, Tennis, Soccer etc. That's all I'm trying to discuss here, not removal of competitive modes and not 100% random either. Going back to a core Halo 2 game isn't going to provide the population to sustain itself. If it did we'd still having massive followings for CE, 2 or 3. They dwindled in the modern gaming landscape, specifically the modern Halo xbox console landscape.
You had a couple legit responses to your post. No need to get upset when people disagree, mate.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I'm not upset with those responses but the Waypoint/mod stuff has had its day. I was multiple 50's in Halo 3 long before I was ever a Waypoint mod. I also liked Reach with AA's and all before I was a Waypoint mod. The friends I continue to play with Halo 4 in full parties also liked Reach and 4, they too want Arena back but not 100% of the time. I also have a bunch of my friends list who stopped playing Halo when Reach dropped and didn't return for Halo 4.
I also rebutted the DOTA & LOL comments, PC population and geographic trends for hyper competitive play. Debating is discussing and I'm not seeking to be 100% right here. I'm trying to evolve the thinking and conversation to get something useful for developers etc. I guess I ask too much.
Also the science flip side is gamers won't play a multiplayer game they are new to or less skilled at for years on end without some sort of reward. the top 1-25% of Halo MM players have been playing for years, decades even, and it shows in teams vs. randoms or lopsided games or newer players trying it out and not sticking with it to get better. It's not insane to look at Halo or games in general today and see why developers provide these level playing field elements. Fuck Mario Kart did this eons ago and still has competitive time trial circles, gamers even imported NTSC TV's and consoles to get the 30fps over PAL 25fps for this reason. That game had random, fun, competitive and level playing field mechanics in it.
Poker Face
Member
FUBAR McDangles
Member
OMG Breaking Gears of War News!
Weapons CONFIRMED
At least some new company knows how to handle a veteran franchise /rolls eyes
Amazing, thank you!
Also, watching this video makes me feel really nostalgic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ-jy8t54aI
I miss Halo 3
Prinz Eugn
Member
I honestly don't care about sportsball either in real life or in games, so I don't know about FIFA's situation but I would think it would have something to with the game being based on an existing culture of competitiveness. Conceivably, they could try to do something like (Super Cartoon Football-Soccer for Kinect) that but it would clash with the existing culture probably... A better example would be real life car racing leading to initial racing simulators which eventually gave birth to Mario Kart (Blue Turtle Shell!) and the whole genre of arcade racing games. Sports games always have a real-life component to keep them grounded, too, so Gran Turismo is right there along with Mario Kart, whereas shooters don't really (unless pro paintball has just gotten super huge while I wasn't looking).
People who suck at shooters, which I would loosely define as 95% of the people who play them, are going to prefer playing the game where they can avoid feeling as bad as they are. There are way less people that look at FPS games as something to practice to get good at than conventional sports or even other video games. CoD sells ridiculously well because it does a really good job of making you feel good (or at least helping you forget getting crushed) regardless of how well you are actually playing. Since companies with millions of dollars on the line tend to play it safe, instead of innovating and trying to build a FIFA/DOTA/SCII culture in FPS, most of them are going to continue to pump out games that go "It's okay Timmy! Have some extra health for dying three times in a row [without doing jack]". It's a popular design choice because it's easy to implement and works often, whereas actually balancing gameplay requires a lot more iteration for a given feature set. That time that could be more safely spent (from a business perspective) on making shiny bullshit in 1080p for morons.
Needless to say, I hope 343i can help reverse this trend.
YourExWife
Member
As usual, you're completely missing the point. No matter the population, shitty players need to be matched with shitty players, good with good, godly with godly. I'm sure those shitty players would rather wait a couple more minutes to match others instead of getting a quicker match, but playing some better team because they happened to be searching.
The concept isn't that difficult. Nothing that's been done to the franchise recently has retained "lesser" (or better for that matter) players in any amount that matters. If people are going to play it because it's called Halo, might as well make it a competitive Halo. You don't see MLB playing exhibition games against little league. Halo's matchmaking systems need to stop doing the equivalent. Then, there's no reason for these fucking ignorant "equalizing" elements to enter into the discussion.
Ozzy, I really don't know what to tell you. There is obviously a place for babby's first FPS in today's consumer base but it is no way the norm. Look at all these AAA FPS games with tacked on, back of the box quote multiplayer that lose all their population in the first week and sell 100k. Halo CE-3 were the biggest shooters of their time and all 3 were regarded as competitive FPS games. Halo 2 gave birth to MLG. They all had ranks and skill ladders, similar to MOBAs (though obviously not as detailed).
As juices said earlier, it's all about having a good matchmaking system. Your average FPS player doesn't give a damn if he hears a guitar riff every time he accidentally gets a headshot. People want to see their skill rewarded, to watch themselves go from terrible to average to good, all while playing others at their skill level. Average players getting wrecked by great players should never happen, and is in no way the cause of the gameplay itself.
I mean good lord, look at Halo 4 (and Reach as well). No real ranking system and poor matchmaking parameters led to generally weak matchups. I'm sure you've seen the many objective holding vids posted here. It's arguable that the "skill-gap closers" in Halo 4/Reach made lopsided games even worse.
As juices said earlier, it's all about having a good matchmaking system. Your average FPS player doesn't give a damn if he hears a guitar riff every time he accidentally gets a headshot. People want to see their skill rewarded, to watch themselves go from terrible to average to good, all while playing others at their skill level. Average players getting wrecked by great players should never happen, and is in no way the cause of the gameplay itself.
I mean good lord, look at Halo 4 (and Reach as well). No real ranking system and poor matchmaking parameters led to generally weak matchups. I'm sure you've seen the many objective holding vids posted here. It's arguable that the "skill-gap closers" in Halo 4/Reach made lopsided games even worse.
Rip slutPoison you idiot. So disappointed in him... channeling all that real life anger towards a gaming forum. Deserves a slap right upside his head.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
I agree with your last paragraph, I generally also find the higher skilled players do even better with the AA's or "gap closers". I pluck the 1/2 out of 10 as a sort of yardstick that gives the lower on the scale incentive to keep playing and getting better. Its not a competitive or fun game when you're getting spawn killed for 15 minutes. The question remains though, how to solve this issue through game design? The elements are more to do with highly skilled teams/players vs. lesser skilled or random match ups, this holds true irrespective of which Halo game or mechanics set you look at though.
Shit Zanzibar wall back in default halo 2 was spawn killing hell, so was MLG Lockout. Fast forward between Bungie/343i and they've been trying to design around these elements. So maybe it is time to release a clean core game and just allow the even playing field to sort it out? Take that and run with it...Nintendo design MK for this very issue, the mechanics are the symptoms and the skills/teams are the source of differences. How come Throwdown didn't bring the population back or make players want to get better at the game? How come anniversary didn't do it? How come throwback didn't do it for objective in 3?
It's not like Bungie/343i haven't attempted this route with each TU post release of trying something new at launch. So basically we're proposing less is more, go back to Halo 2 and do that across all game modes? To me the maps seem to make all the difference for multiplayer and population numbers. For the record I totally agree with comments about matchmaking and in game ranks with match ups being paramount. The caveat there is getting (sales) then retaining (sustained population) gamers for Halo MM. I hate to be a broken record but player toggles combined with quality ranking deliver even better game experiences. Why? As you say the segmenting of skills/teams/modes layered with personal preference for map & gametype. Statc voting is a scattergun approach where toggles are a scalpel of choice. Players/teams who love 1-sided bomb zanzibar will match up with similar, even when the player pools don't necessarily have the optimal match ups based on skill alone.
nillapuddin
Member
So for Halo 2 Vista GAF, I just got my schedule, and in a true anomaly I work all 3 weekend nights, I will try to get my Sunday night switched to daytime so we can set up, but it looks like I will be missing out, will update tomorrow : /
also
Im not sure if someone here linked me to this article, but man it was really good. I enjoyed hearing about the nitty gritty from the actual art/tech guys for once
We all knew that linearity was forced to keep fidelity high, ofcourse we want open-er world but I am still impressed with the graphics they squeezed out of that old rock
also
Im not sure if someone here linked me to this article, but man it was really good. I enjoyed hearing about the nitty gritty from the actual art/tech guys for once
We all knew that linearity was forced to keep fidelity high, ofcourse we want open-er world but I am still impressed with the graphics they squeezed out of that old rock
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