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Halo |OT2| Hyper-Athletic Speed And Mass And Weight and Power

H

Hypertrooper

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I think the problem with exposing the TrueSkill number as a rank in Halo 2 was, as you said, capped out at the player's skill level. People treated it like a rank to earn, when it was really a tool for matchmaking. Whatever system is in place in Halo 4 needs to be totally divorced from that kind of ranking.



Not yet. Probably late this week or early next.
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Yeah. Magazine will be released/published next week(April 11). Hopefully I can snag a copy at the Frankfurter Airport a day earlier. :(
 
C

CyReN

Member
Cheating was rampant in Halo 2 because of dlc maps being so easy to mod and 2 months coming out of everyone ass. Halo 3, yea there where some people selling accounts and cheating but it wasn't as common (for me at least when I played MLG). If you are going to try and counter selling accounts it's going to be tough, but you don't want to make the game so unfriendly to avoid selling accounts that your core fan base even stops playing it.
 
F

Falagard

Member
GhaleonEB said:
I think the problem with exposing the TrueSkill number as a rank in Halo 2 was, as you said, capped out at the player's skill level. People treated it like a rank to earn, when it was really a tool for matchmaking. Whatever system is in place in Halo 4 needs to be totally divorced from that kind of ranking.
Click to expand...

The problem is that people want to see that number, and see it improve if they improve.

Halo 3 and Halo Reach both attempted to use a system divorced from that ranking, which is closer to what Call of Duty and Battlefield use, but Halo used military ranks and emblems.

I think Halo 4 should have a system partially attached to your TrueSkill number but a little less volatile (so if you have a bad couple days, or let your little brother play it doesn't knock that number down as much) in addition to an experience number like COD rather than emblems and military ranks. TrueSkill should be the thing in the back end that is used for matchmaking, and your rank represent your average skill level, and visible to everyone. Then additionally you have a number that represents the amount of experience you have playing the game.

I don't have a very good idea what the various emblems mean - they're pretty useless (to me).
 
H

Havok

Member
thee henery said:
Arena's not a bad system, really. Problem is, it's limited to one slayer list and the rank is only visible in The Arena itself. Many players have called for Arena ranking in other playlists but it's not been implemented.
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Win/Loss Arena really is the best system Halo has had; 1-50 is an example of grinding through bad players until you finally reach your skill level, at which point you start losing (which in turn causes people to make alts to beat up on lower level players again). But yeah, being shuttered away in one playlist with no marketing killed Arena.
bobs99 ... said:
Social playlists and Ranked playlists will allow for people to mongoose around the map for a laugh without affecting the people who take the game competitivly. Unless they are trolling, but without the ranked and social divide every game of Reach has the potential for trolling atm.
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The important thing is that there shouldn't be a direct 1:1 mirroring of Ranked and Social playlists - that's what really causes the population problems. Have the majority be ranked, with a few social playlists that encompass a wider variety of gametypes that people can screw around in or bring their dumb guests; Team Training and Big Team Training are two examples. Having two versions of Team Slayer, Team Objective, Big Team, whatever else is just a waste.
789shadow said:
I actually don't know, could you get on top of it in Halo 2?
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Yes. It was hard, but a good strategy to put pressure on the enemy team.
CyReN said:
Cheating was rampant in Halo 2 because of dlc maps being so easy to mod and 2 months coming out of everyone ass. Halo 3, yea there where some people selling accounts and cheating but it wasn't as common (for me at least when I played MLG). If you are going to try and counter selling accounts it's going to be tough, but you don't want to make the game so unfriendly to avoid selling accounts that your core fan base even stops playing it.
Click to expand...
If you really want to counter jerks who make alts, either to get easy matches or to sell them, you need to make the player investment system reward you for time as much as for skill. Reach did the time part well, but not the skill, where Halo 2 and 3 did the skill part well, but not the time (I maintain that the military ranks in 3 were totally lame).
 
O

Overdoziz

Banned
789shadow said:
Tashi your next Practical Jumps vid must be Sanctuary, cause I'm sick of that shit.
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k2Fmjl.jpg

Use that jump. It's a screenshot of my map but it's the same in MLG's version.
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
thee henery said:
Laugh at the gall of posters who think trueskill, unmodified ala Reach, is appropriate and acceptable for Halo 4 AND vehemently oppose the return of ranked playlists.
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No one is saying that they want trueskill exactly like it is in Reach, just saying that trueskill was used in Halo 3's ranked, it was just not emphasized by the matchmaking systems to make sure you get a good skill match. More emphasis on connection and getting you into a match quickly.

What people want is tighter trueskill matches, which doesn't have to associated with 1-50. Halo 3's 1-50 used trueskill, Halo 3's social used trueskill, Halo Reach's Arena uses trueskill, and Halo Reach's regular playlists use trueskill. It's all about how the matchmaking systems utilize trueskill.

Whatever Halo 4 has for matchmaking, be it social and ranked, just one set of playlists, it will also use a form of trueskill. I understand the want for a ranking system, but something like Arena without seasons (or longer ones than one month) is a vastly superior system than Halo 3's 1-50. Arena (once it was moved to win/loss) is actually pretty damn good, its implementation into the game was just really poor.

Also, for anyone curious about Beaver Creek and Penance in the MLG playlist. My results today were six games played, and neither of those maps showed up.
 
F

FL1Psyde

Neo Member
Pok3R Fac3D said:
This. Modding/standbying wasn't common unless you were playing ranked games of 44+ in Halo 2. Me being the awful player I was, got matched with cheaters very rarely, and my highest rank was a 25. and I was damn proud of that 25.
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agreed i was a lvl 30 and can't remember a time i got modded/standbyed, but i usually just played team hardcore when i wasn't playing customs...my buddy got modded a lot in team snipers though in mid 20 range level too which i find weird

edit: just give H4 ranking system exactly like H2, win 3 games rank up 1 level, lose 3 games rank down 1 level
 
S

Striker

Member
It would be nice if those bars from Halo 2 which filled up as you progressed through your ranks was brought back or introduced in another manner. Why it, among useful things, got dropped is another mystery.
 
T

The Henery

Member
Steelyuhas said:
No one is saying that they want trueskill exactly like it is in Reach, just saying that trueskill was used in Halo 3's ranked, it was just not emphasized by the matchmaking systems to make sure you get a good skill match. More emphasis on connection and getting you into a match quickly.

What people want is tighter trueskill matches, which doesn't have to associated with 1-50. Halo 3's 1-50 used trueskill, Halo 3's social used trueskill, Halo Reach's Arena uses trueskill, and Halo Reach's regular playlists use trueskill. It's all about how the matchmaking systems utilize trueskill.

Whatever Halo 4 has for matchmaking, be it social and ranked, just one set of playlists, it will also use a form of trueskill. I understand the want for a ranking system, but something like Arena without seasons (or longer ones than one month) is a vastly superior system than Halo 3's 1-50. Arena (once it was moved to win/loss) is actually pretty damn good, its implementation into the game was just really poor.

Also, for anyone curious about Beaver Creek and Penance in the MLG playlist. My results today were six games played, and neither of those maps showed up.
Click to expand...

Yea I know that trueskill is used across Halo 3 and Reach, and indeed every 360 title sans EA games. That's why I qualified it with the 'unmodified' statement. I also said that Arena was fine if only it had more lists and didn't have its ranks buried within the service record (only visible whilst in The Arena).

What it comes down to is, do people want to see ranked Halo flourish and prosper population-wise (something it needs in order to function correctly)? If so, don't for one minute think that the average player is compelled to play three times a day, for five days, only to be put into a relatively nebulous division with no immediate way to break out of it. Players just won't do it. Players got addicted to seeing the number rise and fall with wins and losses immediately in the post game lobby. It motivated them. There is no carrot for your average player in Halo Reach, other than a new wrist piece. There is no motivation in Reach.
 
7

789shadow

Banned
thee henery said:
Yea I know that trueskill is used across Halo 3 and Reach, and indeed every 360 title sans EA games. That's why I qualified it with the 'unmodified' statement. I also said that Arena was fine if only it had more lists and didn't have its ranks buried within the service record (only visible whilst in The Arena).

What it comes down to is, do people want to see ranked Halo flourish and prosper population-wise (something it needs in order to function correctly)? If so, don't for one minute think that the average player is compelled to play three times a day, for five days, only to be put into a relatively nebulous division with no immediate way to break out of it. Players just won't do it. Players got addicted to seeing the number rise and fall with wins and losses immediately in the post game lobby. It motivated them. There is no carrot for your average player in Halo Reach, other than a new wrist piece. There is no motivation in Reach.
Click to expand...

Nor should there be, because if you have to have motivation, your game isn't good enough.

Specifically, little rewards. Because then you just get Call of Duty shit.
 
G

GhaleonEB

Member
Falagard said:
The problem is that people want to see that number, and see it improve if they improve.

Halo 3 and Halo Reach both attempted to use a system divorced from that ranking, which is closer to what Call of Duty and Battlefield use, but Halo used military ranks and emblems.

I think Halo 4 should have a system partially attached to your TrueSkill number but a little less volatile (so if you have a bad couple days, or let your little brother play it doesn't knock that number down as much) in addition to an experience number like COD rather than emblems and military ranks. TrueSkill should be the thing in the back end that is used for matchmaking, and your rank represent your average skill level, and visible to everyone. Then additionally you have a number that represents the amount of experience you have playing the game.

I don't have a very good idea what the various emblems mean - they're pretty useless (to me).
Click to expand...
I actually agree with most of this, and have argued in the past that players need a way to measure their skill against their peers; this is important particularly for competetive players. The problem with the Halo 3 and initial Halo 3 iteration was people percieved the ranking system as a progression system, rather than a relative measure.

Conceptually, the idea behind the Arena ranking (playlist-specific) alongside the overall investment system (which would be an actual progression) should work. But I find the implementation of the Arena ranks mind-boggling, and the military ranks indecipherable. I don't know where most people fall on the spectrum because I don't have the emblems memorized.
 
H

Homeboyd

Member
Crazy tornadoes popping down all around us right now. Have been huddled up in our OR hallways with our patients for the past hour... think its about to get worse too.

:/
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
thee henery said:
Yea I know that trueskill is used across Halo 3 and Reach, and indeed every 360 title sans EA games. That's why I qualified it with the 'unmodified' statement. I also said that Arena was fine if only it had more lists and didn't have its ranks buried within the service record (only visible whilst in The Arena).

What it comes down to is, do people want to see ranked Halo flourish and prosper population-wise (something it needs in order to function correctly)? If so, don't for one minute think that the average player is compelled to play three times a day, for five days, only to be put into a relatively nebulous division with no immediate way to break out of it. Players just won't do it. Players got addicted to seeing the number rise and fall with wins and losses immediately in the post game lobby. It motivated them. There is no carrot for your average player in Halo Reach, other than a new wrist piece. There is no motivation in Reach.
Click to expand...

Yeah I definetly understand the qualifying for a division stuff. That could be simplified or removed. The big advantage that I think Arena has over 1-50 though is the divisions and division percentage. I feel that's much more accurate in actually ranking your against your peers to see how you compare to them than the 1-50 system.
 
T

The Henery

Member
789shadow said:
Nor should there be, because if you have to have motivation, your game isn't good enough.

Specifically, little rewards. Because then you just get Call of Duty shit.
Click to expand...

All kinds of wat to this post.

Players shouldn't be motivated to improve? To callout? To take the match seriously? It's got nothing to do with how good the game is, but we have to be realistic and accept that, if you want the average player to take a match seriously, there has to be some form of motivation beyond the immediate match being played. I'm not talking motivation to play the game, I'm talking motivation to play the game seriously.
 
7

789shadow

Banned
thee henery said:
All kinds of wat to this post.

Players shouldn't be motivated to improve? To callout? To take the match seriously? It's got nothing to do with how good the game is, but we have to be realistic and accept that, if you want the average player to take a match seriously, there has to be some form of motivation beyond the immediate match being played. I'm not talking motivation to play the game, I'm talking motivation to play the game seriously.
Click to expand...

It's a slippery slope that goes straight to "you have to spend hours playing before you can unlock the stuff that allows you to be good".

It's alright to reward players to be good, as long as they take steps against exploitation, but not just for playing the game.
 
F

Fracas

#fuckonami
Played BF3 post-patch earlier...Not bad at all. I like the idea of custom servers, really extends the life of the game. Who here plays BF3? We should play sometime.

Halo
 
S

Steelyuhas

Member
789shadow said:
I've already been informed that playing MLG alone = doing it wrong.
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Shouldn't have to play as a group to get a experience that isn't miserable.

CyReN said:
Thats MLG doing, they need to contact 343i ti fix it.
Click to expand...

I know MLG said no to party matching restrictions, but honestly 343 should just go ahead and change it regardless. It's for the best.

I only played a TO4 once in my six games in the playlist today. Although it should be zero times, that wasn't as bad as I feared.
 
R

Ramirez

Member
Tashi0106 said:
I'm playing MLG alone right now.

And guess what? I'm Win
less
!
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I lost every game I played the other night.

Seems MLG people would only want to be matched against teams when they're running with a team. Seems pooping on randos all day would just make you worse players against a good team.
 
T

Tashi

343i Lead Esports Producer
Ramirez said:
I lost every game I played the other night.

Seems MLG people would only want to be matched against teams when they're running with a team. Seems pooping on randos all day would just make you worse players against a good team.
Click to expand...

All very true.
 
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