HigherLevel
Member
If this was answered I missed it, but I think he said something along the lines of they wouldn't be like paper or something like that.
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Halo |OT4| Trust's a Tough Thing to Come by These Days
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
If this was answered I missed it, but I think he said something along the lines of they wouldn't be like paper or something like that.
ElzarTheBam
Member
I'm proud of you.
Rock, paper, scissors with guns
Rock, paper, scissors with AAs
Rock, paper, scissors with perks
Thrice the fun!
bobs...onGaf
Member
Suck it up, its the best looking game of rock paper scissors you will ever play.
I really hope theres not a perk that makes guns kill quicker, that would really throw balance out of the window. The idea of a perk which speeds up shield recharge is bad enough. Im already half expecting a perk which makes nades more powerful, I also hope that never happens.
Three dimensional rock paper scissors?
ElzarTheBam
Member
This sentence, post edit, made me laugh hard Bobs'!
bobs...onGaf
Member
Yeah the sentence should read:
I hope theres not a perk that makes fun die quicker. Reach had lots of mechanics with fast killtimes when it comes to fun.
bobs...onGaf
Member
I would derank the hell out of that game, just to avoid the perks lol.
Perhaps the fact they never got it to work how they intended was a good thing?
The notion of 10 guns fulfilling a sandbox is nice, but ultimately if the gameplay is better with just 3 guns I would rather have a smaller sandbox.
Br, Beam Rifle and Human Sniper would be great.
Pro-Pipe just for hilarities sake and to EMP vehicles and it would be the perfect sandbox for me. I am half joking and know it would never happen, but on a serious note, whats the point of a large focused (some would say weak) set of weapons/ sandbox when it leads to 2 dimensional Rock Paper Scissors gameplay?
using your equipped weapon in its role is a player skill. no one weapon SHOULD rule them all. you should have to plan your attack with your weapon set in mind. this was one of the key things that made halo ce (campaign) so fucking beautiful. every weapon had its place. MP didnt carry this over so well with the pistol (because of a glitch?), but i've always viewed this as something to strive for and personally i'm glad to see this seemingly the goal with 4. the br isnt the best at all ranges against everything aside from power weapons. sounds like the dmr now is better at longer ranges and maybe even the ar is better at closer ranges. hallelujah! it was called a weapon sandbox for a reason.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
I can't wait to deploy my autoturret on a warthog.
Syphon Filter
Member
I hope there are kill streak rewards. jk jk don't kill me lol.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
If I'm better than you no abilities that we've seen so far will stop me from winning a straight up firefight.
Barrow Roll
Member
Yep. Check the group and look at one of my comments.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
You can't possibly know that at this moment. You don't know how any of them work. And that "straight up firefight' is subject to the context of the situation/level on whether or what AA is going to give him the edge over you, even if you're "more skilled."
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Just meaning unless something basically gives you god mode (ala armor lock) there's going to be a way to beat it. It was similar in past Halo games, even if you had the rockets it wasn't a sure kill unless the other person was caught completely off guard.
But but but he QUOTED a developer!
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Quiet over there before I send that decapitating ghost/King of Jerusalem/Ed Norton thing after you.
True, but I would reserve any statements like that until we see how this shit really works, that would go for him too though.
ALL of this shit could be broken, or all of it could be manna given down from heaven for us to grow fat on.
Fatties
Perhaps the fact they never got it to work how they intended was a good thing?
The notion of 10 guns fulfilling a sandbox is nice, but ultimately if the gameplay is better with just 3 guns I would rather have a smaller sandbox.
Br, Beam Rifle and Human Sniper would be great.
I am half joking and know it would never happen, but on a serious note, whats the point of a large focused (some would say weak) set of weapons/ sandbox when it leads to 2 dimensional Rock Paper Scissors gameplay?
and perhaps not?
i don't see how having set roles for weapons would lead to 2-d rock paper scissors gameplay, or even how if it did, that would be a bad thing. halo ce was great because you always tried planning your gameplay around the two weapons you have. nearly every gun you came across could potentially be better suited for the next encounter and you had to weight the benefits/costs associated with switching. why would this be bad for MP? i think opening up the game to encourage FAR more weapon switches and pickups over the system now where you have you dmr/br and hopefully a power weapon, would be vastly superior.
Yes, having the proper equipment for any given encounter is a necessary, but small, aspect of skill. However, due to the hectic nature and gameplay of an FPS like Halo, its not a skill that should wholely determine the outcome of any given encounter. Of course short-range weapons should have advantages in short-range encounters. However, that should not be the sole determining factor in every firefight like it has been in recent Halos.
I feel that a first person SHOOTER should put a large emphasis on SHOOTING skill. Unfortunately, with massive aim assist and slow strafe speed, its been sorely missing.
The weapon sandbox should have unique, role-specific weapons but also provide players with a utilitirian weapon that, in the right hands, in deadly at any range. The weapon must require lots of skill to use well in order to be balanced.
I'm not talking abilities because we've seen literally two of them. We're talking fundamental weapon balance. Its not fun to turn a corner and die because someone is spraying their AR and you have literally no chance, even if they're terrible.
In Halo 2, 3, and Reach, anyone can use a shotgun or AR in close range and win, even against an opponent who is far superior in skill. The entire outcome is decided by what weapon the players had rather than the actual ability of the players.
Halo CE was great because you had role specific weapons that served unique purposes and complimented the utility weapon. You could play a certain style but you'd never feel helpless unless you made a mistake.
You're digging yourself a hole.
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
Round the corner and a guy is spraying AR? Think of it like turning the corner and there's two guys looking right at you. Disengage and try to get the upper hand.
You're going to have to learn when it's smart to fight and when it's smart to run. Now it's not just based on power weapons or being outnumbered. Now you need to realize who's using what.
The differences are very minor in an absolute sense. Jump time differences are in the tenths digits for each phase of the jump, which is likely just a result of a better understanding of their physics solution (the apex of the jump is longer in 3, and the jump is less of a constant speed--reaching the apex is actually faster in 3 from what I could tell). Keep in mind that this is some shitty, terrible science that's coming up with these values.
Movement speed differences are perceived in large part due to a more open map design in 3 (larger maps make speeds look slower). Looking at Heretic and Midship, there's very little difference since they're fundamentally identical, but something like Lockout to The Pit is noticeable since The Pit is much larger and more open (Guardian, on the other hand, suffers from no such issue). But something like Avalanche vs. Containment? It was always awful to spawn in the middle of nowhere on a big map, whether it was Relic or Sandtrap or whatever. There's no way to perceive a difference there. It's overblown, but I just keep in mind that what I mean when talking about their speeds is that it's all map relative.
Rickenslacker
Banned
CRY FOR THE MOOOOOOOOOOAOAAAAHAHHHHHHN!!!1
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
The thing is, that's the type of weapon those are. Especially a shotgun. If you can point in a general direction and you are a close distance to someone you should kill them. The skill for the other player comes when they realize a shotgun is in play and watch their corners, and pick the gunner off. The AR is a bit harder to kill with, but at close range should still do very well.
Skill isn't being beat by weapons you should be beat by, it's the realization of those weapons on the map and knowing how to counter them as to not give that player the opportunity to kill you with them. Unless you just want Halo 1 again, where as long as you have a pistol nothing can beat you...
The only time it's smart to fight when you have Rock-Paper-Scissors balance is when you have the correct role-specific weapon. There's no strategy to it.
Slow-killing weapons, massive aim assist and slow strafe speed makes games rely on power weapons and numbers.
Except for a player of higher ability. Why is everyone so hateful towards rewarding the better player in a COMPETITIVE mode?
The CE pistol actually expanded the strategy of the game much more due to its power. It's not challenging to recognize that a shotgun is good up close. That's not a very involved skill. However, when players are deadly from anywhere on the map, even as a solo player, then the game begins to get interesting.
bobs...onGaf
Member
For me I have been glad they 'got it wrong' all these years, led to a much more enjoyable game where my actions with the weapon where more important than simply the weapon I chose. Sure it's kind of fun making a choice in campaign, but in multiplayer it would be infuriating to lose a fight simply because I chose the BR over the dmr and the other guy chose differently. Sure maybe I should stick to movements which compliment the weapon I pick, but ultimately all your doing is limiting the player with artificial roadblocks. If im good enough to go in and take 3 people on I want to do that, not have to avoid battles because they chose different guns to me in a main menu.
The Librarian
Banned
Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense.
Barrow Roll
Member
sogood.gif
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
I would disagree completely. Especially since I already told you how to deal with it.
well said.
see above. (as usual, everyone is free to their opinions and it definitely makes sense why people would want 1 all purpose utility weapon)
Rickenslacker
Banned
Nearly anything could beat you, keeping in mind that grenades were nukes, all power weapons were absurdly powerful and vehicles killed you by merely looking at you. The beauty of it, and what appealed to me about CE was that because of the pistol I never felt like I was ill equipped.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
A. You're generalizing too much with the rock, paper, scissors talk. If you run into me with an AR, and I have a DMR, you have a shot to beat me, but if I'm a good player I can still beat you. A lot of the Halo weapons are this way, weapons have advantages in certain scenarios and matchups but those advantages aren't definite, there's always skill involved with outgunning someone who should have a slight advantage on you. Unless you run into me with rockets and I have a plasma pistol, I'll usually always have a shot to take you out.
B. The CE pistol made it so that the pistol and rockets were the only weapons touched. Jump into an Anniversary playlist now. I always seemed to remember how awesome Halo 1 mp was and how I loved the pistol, now I go into Anniversary and see that every single person only ever touches the pistol or power weapon, the other weapons have become useless. That's not a balanced game, that's lopsided. One could even argue Halo 4 fits into your want for precision distance too, with the DMR and BR both viable options at close to long range. You are still deadly from anywhere on the map, but now with 2 balanced weapons as opposed to 1 overpowered pistol.
My two cents.
Steelyuhas
Member
Anniversary is not CE, yes it tries to replicate it as well as Reach can, but it's still not CE.
Every weapon was used regularly in CE, except probably the Needler.
Rickenslacker
Banned
You can't make that comparison. There's no amount of tweaking and bandaging and patching possible to morph Reach into anything being anything more than a poor imitation of CE. From the aim assist, to the melee lunge, to the damage values, to the grenade behaviour, to the vehicle behaviour, to the other weapons, this is just not right. This scenario may be true in Reach's ruleset but is in no means accurate to the real thing.
Deadly Cyclone
Pride of Iowa State
Despite anniversary being different than Halo CE, the point still hold validity. What are the weapons you remember using most in CE? I remember the pistol, sniper, and rockets.
How is any developer supposed to expand the game's weapon set if all some of the core fans want are the basic original weapons? It seems like any addition is a bad addition to a few of you.
Just makes me curious as to whether any game could ever live up to Halo CE for some of you, and how you personally would go about evolving a 11 year old franchise to make it work in 2012 after the shooter landscape has changed so much.
How is any developer supposed to expand the game's weapon set if all some of the core fans want are the basic original weapons? It seems like any addition is a bad addition to a few of you.
Just makes me curious as to whether any game could ever live up to Halo CE for some of you, and how you personally would go about evolving a 11 year old franchise to make it work in 2012 after the shooter landscape has changed so much.
Steelyuhas
Member
I used every weapon with regularity with the exception of the Needler.
Rickenslacker
Banned
I think when analyzing CE's weapons you have to realize that there really weren't a whole lot of redundancies present. You didn't have three different precision weapons meant for different roles and a Covenant Human version of everything. In CE, what are the weapons we're talking about here? Needler, Plasma Pistol and Rifle, and AR. The plasma weaponry had stunning capabilities despite not having the best offensive power, and were great for closer engagements because of it; you didn't have lunges automatically nailing anyone in your sights so it actually gave some variance to those encounters. AR was good against people in vehicles, as well as had quickcamo capabilities.
In regards to adding new weaponry, I don't really have much to say on that. I thought the propipe is one of the best additions in the entire series, but I'm not much a fan of having multiple similar weapon types solely to fit into more niche weapon roles. I don't need a sequel to have 10 different precision weapons for 10 different preferable ranges.
You forgot shottys... doesn't really debunk your point, though.
CE's gameplay and weapon set allowed for use of almost every weapon, but it doesn't hold up to today. With the things that each game improved and added upon, the CE sandbox doesn't work today. It works for CE, and it puzzles me as to why anyone would want to tarnish that sandbox by bringing it into newer games.
From my perspective they need to get back to adding less destructive elements to the sandbox. Grav Lift destroyed map movement, but it was a one time use and it disappeared after a while. It wasn't super destructive. Jetpack allowed you to destroy map movement whenever you wanted. That's very destructive.
In other Halo news, I think this is going to be the first Halo game where I pass on the Limited Edition pre-order.
From my perspective they need to get back to adding less destructive elements to the sandbox. Grav Lift destroyed map movement, but it was a one time use and it disappeared after a while. It wasn't super destructive. Jetpack allowed you to destroy map movement whenever you wanted. That's very destructive.
343 is bringing it back really shows how good their design is...
In other Halo news, I think this is going to be the first Halo game where I pass on the Limited Edition pre-order.
Rickenslacker
Banned
Can you elaborate on this?
Brolic Gaoler
formerly Alienshogun
There is literally nothing wrong with Grunt Birthday Party from a design or competitive standpoint. It just annoys you.
Not rock, paper, scissors because their advantages are dependent upon a separate value (range), not their intrinsic value.
Not rock, paper, scissors because their advantages are dependent upon a separate value (range), not their intrinsic value.