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[neoism]

this was the topic of pages 106 to roughly page 116
And still no clarification.

really shame I'm getting it but I canceled my limited edition on amazon because not sure it's that same as the game and the season pass which would be $85 and the Le is 15 more is that amour the only difference..? I don't really care about a few booklets or whatever...

 

[FyreWulff]

What's wrong with a rock-paper-scissors dynamic?

Because everyone is just going to choose Scissors.

 

[Ragnarok Flames]

what have I done...

Created something that will let people pubstomp each other.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Because everyone is just going to choose Scissors.

But then people would choose rock to beat scissors, etc. it's the textbook definition of imperfect balance.

 

[neoism]

guys neogaf pro dark i had it on for years but never updated..lol lovein it now..

 

[Hydranockz]

But then people would choose rock to beat scissors, etc. it's the textbook definition of imperfect balance.

That's even with the assumption that scissors will always beat paper, always, which is flawed to say the least.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

HLS is essentially the same as those alcoves in maps where players can duck into to avoid direct gunfire but not grenades or melee.

Typically they cant conjure an alcove literally out of they're ass though.

The biggest problem I have with Halo 4 right now is: we are seeing a very small isolated part of the sandbox, its like 343 have avoided showing us the potentially overly unbalanced stuff. We are seeing so little of the game that we just honestly don't know how hardlight shield will react to the wider sandbox. Im hoping the Pax build alleviates that, but I get the feeling 343 will keep the full sandbox under wraps until the game is out.

Wait... is there no way in COD to make sure you always start a game fresh? Can you not turn off drop in for yourself? I sincerely hope Halo 4 doesn't follow that model if that's the case.

Nope, every time you search for a match your playing a lottery where you could end up in a match at any time. Usually its the people getting demolished who quit, so your usually joining games against your favour. CoD actually does handle it pretty well, and it ends up less often than you would think, but it still happens.

 

[neoism]

Playtime
24D 08H 00M

woow
lol

 

[Hydranockz]

Typically they cant conjure an alcove literally out of they're ass though.

They're pretty common in most maps. On BTB maps, it could be a lifesaver for people who traverse the open spots. It'll stop cross map pinging for a while.

They are picking it at the expense of having a.more offensive or more versatile AA too.

 

[TheOddOne]

LOL Halo 4 MP balance

Best summary ever.

 

[Fuchsdh]

That's even with the assumption that scissors will always beat paper, always, which is flawed to say the least.

I'm not saying that it's perfect, but just that it's another way to approach balance. It's all theory until millions of players hammer at it.

 

[Fracas]

What's wrong with a rock-paper-scissors dynamic?

Frank/David/343 has stated many, many times that the entire purpose of armor abilities and perks are to allow you to play the game the way you want to play it, no? Camo for those that like stealth, Hardlight Shield for those that like to be on the front lines, etc.

The problem is, when you have a rock-paper-scissors system, that doesn't happen. You can't play by your preferred playing style because the game practically forces you to take an armor ability/perk that counters the enemy's, or at the very least puts you on the same level.

edit: Does Promethean Vision allow you to see enemies using Active Camouflage, or does using camo make you invisible to Promethean Vision?

 

[FyreWulff]

But then people would choose rock to beat scissors, etc. it's the textbook definition of imperfect balance.

I can maybe put this a better way. Rock Paper Scissors situation.

Scissors beats Paper. Scissors ties against Scissors. Scissors loses to Rock


In this situation, your choice benefits you in 2 out of 3 situations. You'll always beat paper, and the more skilled of the two Scissors users will have an edge in their encounter and win. Add on the fact that Rock's tradeoffs for choosing it are a bit worse than Scissors, and everyone chooses Scissors because a) it's slightly more optimized b) you aren't at a deficit for choosing it against other Scissors anyway.

edit: It's the same reason I have concern for the BR, DMR, and Carbine situation. Their functions will either be extremely similar and pretty much function as chooseable skins for your mid rifle.. or if they actually differentiate, people will just choose the most optimal one, and money/time/RAM has been wasted modeling two guns that nobody uses.

 

[Tawpgun]

That's even with the assumption that scissors will always beat paper, always, which is flawed to say the least.

C'mon now. You know no one is suggesting Halo 4's gameplay isn't anywhere near absolute rock paper scissors. But what you choose in the loadout menu can give you an advantage/disadvantage.

Encounter an enemy at long range. You have a BR, he has a DMR and maybe even the perk that keeps you in scope.

You're in a firefight with someone. Evenly matched, you both duck into cover, you exit out and he has more shields than you.

Sure you might be able to win, but you're at a disadvantage.

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Also: power weapons drop in. Guess who gets to them first? Dude who can sprint all the way there.

Or the guy who has the specialization to see where they are dropping early!

Or the guy who was killed by the guy who can see them dropping early, but has the specialization to see the last dude who killed him and can see him hanging around where the Rockets are spawning............



...while using Promethean Vision

 

[GhaleonEB]

To be fair, convention builds take extra resources to do, and are essentially branches off the main trunk that you have to spend extra time on. Not as significant as a beta, but you still try to avoid doing more than you have to.

Yeah. And given the sheer number of conventions these days, it's not reasonable to expect a new build often. It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to PAX: A lot of the stuff I'm worried about has been talked about but not implemented in builds on display, so I can see if my worries are unfounded. The new PAX build should be more representative of the final game.

Anyone up for a co-op mission with Iron on? I need one more Challenge for the weekly, and I'm not getting three sprees in a single MP game...

 

[Talents]

I highly, highly doubt the console announcement from MLG is Halo 4, CS:GO seems the most likely (and that's not because of how I think Halo 4 will be at release, but rather how ridiculously long MLG takes to create their gametypes.)

Yeah, it almost certainly won't be H4, MLG take months to create the gametypes/maps, I also doubt 343 would be willing to give MLG access to the final build (if there even is a final build yet).

 

[Hydranockz]

I can maybe put this a better way. Rock Paper Scissors situation.

Scissors beats Paper. Scissors ties against Scissors. Scissors loses to Rock


In this situation, your choice benefits you in 2 out of 3 situations. You'll always beat paper, and the more skilled of the two Scissors users will have an edge in their encounter and win. Add on the fact that Rock's tradeoffs for choosing it are a bit worse than Scissors, and everyone chooses Scissors because a) it's slightly more optimized b) you aren't at a deficit for choosing it against other Scissors anyway.

Imperfect balance is a good thing There is no dominant strategy in a game with imperfect balance as it is constantly shifting.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Rock paper scissors balance is just boring, im not sure why anyone would really want it. Boiling a game down to predetermined results is nowhere near as exciting as just giving everyone versatile weapons and letting them be more in control of the outcome.

They're pretty common in most maps. On BTB maps, it could be a lifesaver for people who traverse the open spots. It'll stop cross map pinging for a while.

They are picking it at the expense of having a.more offensive or more versatile AA too.

If your playing The Pit, or Guardian, or any smaller arena maps, typically its clear if a player could use a alcove or not based on theyre position on the map, and its easy to read and react, hardlight shield is essentially taking away form the readability and I would argue tactics of the game. I dont mind randomness as long as that randomness is readable. Granted BTB maps are a bit more complex, but BTB is a big party anyway so I dont really care about Hardlight shield in there.

Armour Lock was chosen at the cost of more offensive and more versatile AA's, and look how that turned out.

 

[Hydranockz]

C'mon now. You know no one is suggesting Halo 4's gameplay isn't anywhere near absolute rock paper scissors. But what you choose in the loadout menu can give you an advantage/disadvantage.

Encounter an enemy at long range. You have a BR, he has a DMR and maybe even the perk that keeps you in scope.

You're in a firefight with someone. Evenly matched, you both duck into cover, you exit out and he has more shields than you.

Sure you might be able to win, but you're at a disadvantage.

I am talking about HLS and other armour abilities.

You are talking about Specializations.

 

[FyreWulff]

Yeah. And given the sheer number of conventions these days, it's not reasonable to expect a new build often. It's one of the reasons I'm looking forward to PAX: A lot of the stuff I'm worried about has been talked about but not implemented in builds on display, so I can see if my worries are unfounded. The new PAX build should be more representative of the final game.

Anyone up for a co-op mission with Iron on? I need one more Challenge for the weekly, and I'm not getting three sprees in a single MP game...

I'd be up for it

Imperfect balance is a good thing There is no dominant strategy in a game with imperfect balance as it is constantly shifting.

In a game with high customization options, it's inevitable that an optimal build will emerge and it becomes the highly used one. A game to point this out for: World of Warcraft. Used to be super fine detail in how you built your skill tree, but it was pretty much "Google the best build and use that", and other players would mock you for not using the super optimal build. Blizzard changed it by giving the stuff everyone chose anyway as passive traits and massively simplified the system so choices mattered again.

 

[feel]

Low levels of trust around here today. They are testing all of this guys, relax, I'm sure their team of asshole testers with no honor will expose any and every exploitable loadout.

 

[Hydranockz]

Rock paper scissors balance is just boring, im not sure why anyone would really want it. Boiling a game down to predetermined results is nowhere near as exciting as just giving everyone versatile weapons and letting them be more in control of the outcome.

To me that is taking chess and making it checkers or only having one unit in StarCraft so it comes down to whoever has the better micro game. Is that right? Micro?

 

[Ramirez]

They've already said there will be playlists with none of this stuff, so...

 

[bobs...onGaf]

To me that is taking chess and making it checkers or only having one unit in StarCraft so it comes down to whoever has the better micro game. Is that right? Micro?

Chess is about as far from rock paper scissors as you could get!

 

[Abdozer]

They've already said there will be playlists with none of this stuff, so...

This, but I'm afraid that it'll end up being vastly underpopulated compared to say, Infinity Slayer.

 

[Fuchsdh]

I'd be up for it



In a game with high customization options, it's inevitable that an optimal build will emerge and it becomes the highly used one. A game to point this out for: World of Warcraft. Used to be super fine detail in how you built your skill tree, but it was pretty much "Google the best build and use that", and other players would mock you for not using the super optimal build. Blizzard changed it by giving the stuff everyone chose anyway as passive traits and massively simplified the system so choices mattered again.

Better example to me is StarCraft II or DotA, where you'd be laughed at for using an old strategy that people had learned to beat. There's always a dominant strategy, but it rapidly changes as people learn how to counter it and others look for another dominant strategy.

Once again, I have no idea if this would work vis a vis AAs. Just a thought that it has worked in games.

 

[Hydranockz]

Chess is about as far from rock paper scissors as you could get!

And I believe AAs to be the same.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

I can already see the mind games when using HLS and fighting against HLS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1Fu9n3171I&list=UUR_Gu9uB5kK78QuacYHONdA&index=19&feature=plcp

 

[Ramirez]

This, but I'm afraid that it'll end up being vastly underpopulated compared to say, Infinity Slayer.

Doesn't really matter as long as you can find a match. Super Slayer has a pathetic population, but you can still find matches quickly, that's all that matters.

I really don't think they'll axe it, unless it hovers around 50 people every night, lol.

 

[Woorloog]

This, but I'm afraid that it'll end up being vastly underpopulated compared to say, Infinity Slayer.

So? Play what you like, let people play what they like.
As long as 343i won't go on removing "Classic lists". I know i won't be touching Classic lists really (maybe occasionally) but i'd like to have that option always, just in case (if i don't like the Infinity Slayer, i won't be playing Halo 4).
And this only as long as there won't be a ridiculous number of playlists like Reach, or 2 versions of each list like in Halo 3.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

And I believe AAs to be the same.

I wasn't talking about AA's. I was merely responding because someone posted "I dont see why Rock Paper Scissors would be so bad"

I dont agree with you btw, but thats a pandora's box to open when I get back home.

 

[heckfu]

Low levels of trust around here today. They are testing all of this guys, relax, I'm sure their team of asshole testers with no honor will expose any and every exploitable loadout.

I don't know if I'm doing this right, but letters pls.

 

[malfcn]

Yah gimme that 33819 credit!

 

[The P of Poland]

They've already said there will be playlists with none of this stuff, so...

I don't think they even said that. I believe it was just that they'll only lack personal ordnance and a few other minor traits, so basically 50% Infinity Slayer.

 

[Enfinit]

I have a feeling Halo 4's going to be really, really fun up until everyone starts unlocking specializations. Rogue and Nemesis at this point seem more game-breaking than the Hardlight Shield.

When are you going to be online today?

Probably in an hour or so.

 

[Woorloog]

I don't think they even said that. I believe it was just that they'll only lack personal ordnance and a few other minor traits, so basically 50% Infinity Slayer.

The did say there are list(s) for more "classic" oriented players.

Infinity Slayer and Halo 4's normal playlists are similar but not the same (Infinity has personal ordnance, the others have random power weapon drops).

EDIT what did Nemesis mod do? EDIT Nemesis Armor Mod: The Nemesis armor mod allows users to target and track down previous attacking enemies, highlighting them on the armor’s passive sensors.
Why would that be OP? It just highlights your killer when you see him.

 

[neoism]

Yah gimme that 33819 credit!

damn wish that happen to me played an awesome game 24/4 and only need 30o0cR more til Nova lol

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

EDIT what did Nemesis mod do? EDIT Nemesis Armor Mod: The Nemesis armor mod allows users to target and track down previous attacking enemies, highlighting them on the armor’s passive sensors.
Why would that be OP? It just highlights your killer when you see him.

I think I remember something along the lines of they're still working

Passive sensors? Hopefully that means it won't be a Waypoint that outlines the last person who killed you.. Maybe something more subtle and only when they're in the vicinity.

 

[Woorloog]

Passive sensors? Hopefully that means it won't be a Waypoint that outlines the last person who killed you.. Maybe something more subtle and only when they're in the vicinity.

Outlines just like ODST, i reckon, whenever you see your target (ie within 50 meters or so at most). Would make sense lore-wise, since the armor has VISR 4.0.
Frankly, if it works just like this, it wouldn't be worth using really. I don't need to know who killed me, assuming even player skill. If uneven skill, then i can easily recognize who killed me based on how they play, but again, pointless.

EDIT if it shows a waypoint to the target... well, not pointless but balance is questionable.

 

[Overdoziz]

Would make sense lore-wise

Kill me now

 

[Woorloog]

Kill me now

343i is already integrating gameplay, multiplayer and canon to each other. So... EDIT i referred how it would look visually BTW.
But seriously, if it really did just highlight your killer, what use is that?

 

[heckfu]

343i is already integrating gameplay, multiplayer and canon to each other. So... EDIT i referred how it would look visually BTW.
But seriously, if it really did just highlight your killer, what use is that?

Do you ever read your posts? What use is highlighting your killer?

Well I don't know! Maybe he was camping with a sniper...and look, there he is! That was easy!

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

343i is already integrating gameplay, multiplayer and canon to each other. So... EDIT i referred how it would look visually BTW.
But seriously, if it really did just highlight your killer, what use is that?

That's what I'm hoping it is and not some arrow or some shiii that you can see through walls. An outline when you actually see them that disappears as soon as you lose sight of the (like the VISR) is a much better idea. That would definitely make it more balanced and less-prominent like the other specializations (aside from Stability).

Do you ever read your posts? What use is highlighting your killer?

Well I don't know! Maybe he was camping with a sniper...and look, there he is! That was easy!

Sounds dumb and pointless, yes, but isn't that the point of these specializations to add subtle touches to gameplay? Seems consistent with some of the other ones.. Maybe after you spot them, it leaves them highlighted for a couple seconds even if they leave your sight. No reason to be a jerk to him about it...

 

[Woorloog]

Do you ever read your posts? What use is highlighting your killer?

Well I don't know! Maybe he was camping with a sniper...and look, there he is! That was easy!

Unless the maps have shrubs and other plants where you can hide, i'll see you or i don't, highlighting won't help with that. If the maps dark or have hiding places made from plants... well, that's just shitty design, not clean design. And any line of sight blockes would likely block highlighting as well.

But i was just speculating how the armor mod works, we don't have solid details really.

 

[kylej]

LOL Halo 4 MP balance

Halo 4 is going to make armor lock and Reach in general feel like the most balanced and competitive game of all time. All that Infinity slayer nonsense will be so hilariously unbalanced and broken upon release that I can't wait to see what people are abusing a week after launch. If you can't balance a Halo game around 5 armor abilities, you sure as hell won't be able to balance it around riot shields and care packages and armor perks and whatever else is stuffed into this game.

One can only pray that 343 actually manages the playlists competently this time around and gives us real, true vanilla Halo. I still won't want to play regular Halo on their giant maps but it'll be better than nothing.

 

[Brolic Gaoler]

Yah gimme that 33819 credit!

How long did it take you?

 

[Garrett 2U]

Do you ever read your posts? What use is highlighting your killer?

Well I don't know! Maybe he was camping with a sniper...and look, there he is! That was easy!

But it only highlights when you see him, it's not like perma Promethean vision.
Personally if I get killed by a sniper, I'd keep track of his position and go after him anyways, I don't need that perk to help me.

It probably also indicates on your radar too, if they are on your radar.

 

[heckfu]

Sounds dumb and pointless, yes, but isn't that the point of these specializations to add subtle touches to gameplay? Seems consistent with some of the other ones.. Maybe after you spot them, it leaves them highlighted for a couple seconds even if they leave your sight. No reason to be a jerk to him about it...

My point was that his critique is very shallow of how we think it works thus far combined with the many options we have to customize our spartan. Instant respawn, seeing where your killer is who could've been potentially weak and a team with good communication?

That hardly seems fair to anyone here whether you want to argue with me just to be contrary or not...that's ridiculous.

But it only highlights when you see him, it's not like perma Promethean vision.
Personally if I get killed by a sniper, I'd keep track of his position and go after him anyways, I don't need that perk to help me.

It probably also indicates on your radar too, if they are on your radar.

As would I, but sometimes I get sniped and I have no idea where it came from. Now I'm more interested in other abilities but it really would be something neat to use especially just getting used to the new maps and figuring out where the hot spots for killing and camping are early on.

 

[Woorloog]

But it only highlights when you see him, it's not like perma Promethean vision.
Personally if I get killed by a sniper, I'd keep track of his position and go after him anyways, I don't need that perk to help me.

It probably also indicates on your radar too...

Yup. But it was mere speculation.
And the same.

As for the radar, just highlight his radar dot, i reckon. Not much use.

My point was that his critique is very shallow of how we think it works thus far combined with the many options we have to customize our spartan. Instant respawn, seeing where your killer is who could've been potentially weak and a team with good communication?

That hardly seems fair to anyone here whether you want to argue with me just to be contrary or not...that's ridiculous.

I always forget the instant respawn... it feels so foreign in Halo...
But if i die, and happen to be on talkative mood, i'll tell where i died and from what. Do i really need something to highlight my killer? I don't think so. EDIT of course i'm just talking about myself, i don't see it as useful maybe others do. And again, we don't really know how it works, i was just speculating.