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[Thagomizer]

I have the opposite feeling- with the exception of the spawning system, I think that Invasion is pretty well balanced now that people more or less know what they are doing.

I also have no problems with the vehicles, except that the Wraith is once again a paper tiger and the Scorpion is apparently made out of plastic explosives and balsa wood.

 

[Wiggum2007]

I'm only really liking the feel of the warthog right now. All the other vehicles just don't feel very good to control IMO, which is a shame considering control and feel of vehicles was always one of the things the Halo games never failed at. But hopefully they're not final yet.

I feel that the vehicles were perfect in Halo 3 and yet they go and break them. Some are overpowered (Scorpion) and others feel like a death trap (Warthog).

Yeah I want to just tell myself that it's the cluttered exteriors of Boneyard contributing to the awkwardness of the vehicles, but there's just something off about them. Whether it's the handling or the shooting or what, they don't feel fun right now.

 

[Nutter]

Reach has many issues, and I could write about many of them. At the end of the day Reach is very UnHalo as an Halo game can get. Yes its has all the weapons, vehicles, the characters that make it a Halo game, but the way they have been integrated so far they are very different. I am not saying Halo 2, or Halo 3 were perfect. Reach has done many many things right as well. However certain things just dont feel Halo to me anymore. I have played 300 in one week trying to find that certain love that I had for Halo 2, and Halo 3's gameplay, but so far its pretty hard to find, maybe like 1 in every 5 or so games I am having some fun.

At the end of the beta Ill write up the things I "think" should be changed or modified to make the game feel a bit more like Halo.

Also OT: What is up with people saying they loved the old HaloGAF? and whats funny is that these people joined GAF less then a year ago.

 

[Sill4]

I've been playing Halo games since 2002 and Reach feels like Halo to me.

I'm all up for improvements, but shit like the floaty jumps are things I'm not sad to see go.

The atmosphere, the gun play, and the overall feel are all distinctly Halo, imo.

 

[Wiggum2007]

I know this is the MP Beta thread, but I've been playing through SP of various Halo games recently, and man they better go crazy with Hunter variants in Reach. As cool as the base Hunters are, they are about the only enemy in the series that hasn't had any new variants introduced (ok lore-wise you could count Scarabs but they're completely different from a gameplay perspective), which is a shame given how much potential there is for variation given both their fiction and gameplay role. Like some melee-only Hunter that charges you like a bull, while his buddy picks at you from afar. Bring it Bungie!

 

[Sill4]

I know this is the MP Beta thread, but I've been playing through SP of various Halo games recently, and man they better go crazy with Hunter variants in Reach. As cool as the base Hunters are, they are about the only enemy in the series that hasn't had any new variants introduced (ok lore-wise you could count Scarabs but they're completely different from a gameplay perspective), which is a shame given how much potential there is for variation given both their fiction and gameplay role. Like some melee-only Hunter that charges you like a bull, while his buddy picks at you from afar. Bring it Bungie!

Halo 3 scarab is a form of Hunter.

 

[Buttonbasher]

I've been playing Halo games since 2002 and Reach feels like Halo to me.

I'm all up for improvements, but shit like the floaty jumps are things I'm not sad to see go.

The atmosphere, the gun play, and the overall feel are all distinctly Halo, imo.

I like floaty jumps, but agree with the rest completely.

 

[Wiggum2007]

Halo 3 scarab is a form of Hunter.

Yeah I mentioned that in my post, but like I said from a gameplay perspective a Scarab is a completely different kind of encounter compared to fighting Hunters, while I'm getting at variations that still fill a similar role to the Hunters we've had in the past.

 

[UltimaPooh]

As a Halo gamer since the beginning I welcome and love Reach's design.

It has its problems. Jumps could be higher, Grenade Radius, fixing Invasion and the Boneyard Map, you know all the things that have been discussed multiple times already.

I don't like it when people complain about a game not being like the other games in the series. If you wanted a game that was similar just play the old ones.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

How about a Hunter that isn't achingly slow and can't be out manuevered by a sloth? This goes for Scarab variants too.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Agreed, the reduced speed, acceleration, and jump speed really remove one of the things that differentiates Halo from other shooters. How 1v1 BR firefights would move up and around the geometry. How you could easily maneuver around the many planes of the level to get a better line of sight to your target.

In Reach, even on more open maps like Powerhouse, people don't move around the map in this distinct fashion. Instead, like all other shooters, you skate around the path you're set on, relying on stairs or the occasional lift as gimped means of added a 3rd dimension. Of course the jetpack offers a way of moving in a more interesting fashion during firefights and getting lines of sight but it's far from the standard gameplay element it once was. Hell, you're even forced to crouch on the ground if you wish to be most accurate.

There are many things I don't like about Reach's covie gameplay but the movement and jumps are more Halo than anything else in the game and evade is a very dynamic and fun improvement upon that. The strength of their shields and how quickly they replenish do a lot to undermine everything good about the covie gameplay as it results in clusterfuck of melee and stickies.

Reach has many issues, and I could write about many of them. At the end of the day Reach is very UnHalo as an Halo game can get. Yes its has all the weapons, vehicles, the characters that make it a Halo game, but the way they have been integrated so far they are very different. I am not saying Halo 2, or Halo 3 were perfect. Reach has done many many things right as well. However certain things just dont feel Halo to me anymore. I have played 300 in one week trying to find that certain love that I had for Halo 2, and Halo 3's gameplay, but so far its pretty hard to find, maybe like 1 in every 5 or so games I am having some fun.

Just thought I'd echo these sentiments. It's what I've been saying since day one, which my initial playing had me simply aghast, and why I kept saying "this isn't Halo". I just couldn't put my finger on it with so few games under my belt.

Got my requisite three Arena games in - I've lost count of how many Daily Ratings I have and I can't find where on b.net it says how many I have - and picked out these two clips.

This one just shows the power of a grenade. Guy tags me once with the DMR, and a grenade goes off and I go from nearly full shield to the last bar of health like that. I know grenade strength is being tweaked from the last BWU, but that was the closest to a contained experiment I've been part of in matchmaking and it really sunk in then: two shots and a grenade is lethal. Which...isn't much. Since health does not regenerate fully, that means a second grenade, even with full shields, would kill me unless I got a health pack. Which is what happened later.

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO. The short lifespan, the grenade spam, the repeated deaths after killing a player, charging in to strip the shields (which is more of a problem under the new system than it ever was in the previous Halo games), the boring gunplay. And this is Slayer Pro.

Tweaking the grenades and fixing the double melee will only partially resolve the core problems with the gameplay design in Reach.

 

[Sill4]

I like floaty jumps, but agree with the rest completely.

I know a lot of people like the jumps, and I'm fine with that. If Bungie were to go and tweak the jumps, I'd be a tiny bit disappointed personally, but I would understand why they do it and why many people want it. I realize that there are different types of things in Halo that appeal to different people.

For me, Halo has not always been about multiplayer. That was ALWAYS secondary. The flow of quick FPS combat and vehicle action against the most fun AI enemies in any game I've ever played are what Halo was always about.

A lot of the people here didn't start out with CE, and some only started with Halo 3, and while there's nothing wrong with that, these people need to keep an open mind and remember that not all Halo fans are Super Duper MLG Players who's idea of fun is an all BR battle on Midship.

Yeah I mentioned that in my post, but like I said from a gameplay perspective a Scarab is a completely different kind of encounter compared to fighting Hunters, while I'm getting at variations that still fill a similar role to the Hunters we've had in the past.

My bad, I just skimmed the post like a tard.

 

[IJoel]

Some thoughts after a few more Invasion sessions, as well as other Arena ones:
- Invasion is fun, but not nearly as good as the concept sounds. I wish the mode really felt like an invasion; something distinct from the rest of the game modes. As it is, it's just a combination of Territories with CTF, in a map that doesn't seem that great for either. It would help if there was more variety in the types of objectives (destroy human defenses, etc.), and if there was more to the atmosphere to it (have the different team's commanders provide more feedback as the game progresses). Though probably a balancing challenge, I think having the different objectives being dynamic (not the same sequence of objectives in the same places) would result in a much more distinct experience.
- I think I found out why everyone's using jet-packs. The jet-pack/AR combo is decent.
- I loathe camo+hammer. I long for a "if you don't move at least every 5 seconds, you die" mode.
- I would also like to play a jet-packs only mode. I hope this will be possible through customs.

 

[EazyB]

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO.

:lol

Not sure what many people here think separate Halo from other shooters but these are the tree most prominent things I believe Halo does that very few games do these days:
1) Stuck with old school Quake mechanics of extended gunfights
2) Stuck with old school jumping and movement mechanics
3) Integrated balanced and fun vehicular combat into a FPS

While I can appreciate many of the modern shooters mechanics, I still prefer the classics, and Halo maintaining these classic mechanics grows ever more important as these types of games disappear.

With Reach, it still upholds 1, maybe to a greater degree than ever, but without 2 these extended battles become more predictable, less dynamic, less fun, and ends up working against 1. The vehicle balance in Reach is pretty rocky at the moment but I have less concern of it with those tweaks being much easier.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

The people who miss the jumps and what not, the jetpack is the jump. I use that thing religiously now. It doesn't have to take you a mile into the sky every time you use it. I've grown accustomed to the range of the jump in Reach and compensate accordingly with light taps of the jetpack. The jetpack is giving me the ability to do everything I loved to do in Halo3, as far as game physics and stuff. Stop using Sprint. Stop using Armor Lock. Stop using Camo. Jetpack is freaking amazing.

 

[Kuroyume]

We're going to pretend past Halo games were fast now? Okay. :lol

 

[DeadFalling]

:lol

Not sure what many people here think separate Halo from other shooters but these are the tree most prominent things I believe Halo does that very few games do these days:
1) Stuck with old school Quake mechanics of extended gunfights
2) Stuck with old school jumping and movement mechanics
3) Integrated balanced and fun vehicular combat into a FPS

While I can appreciate many of the modern shooters mechanics, I still prefer the classics, and Halo maintaining these classic mechanics grows ever more important as these types of games disappear.

With Reach, it still upholds 1, maybe to a greater degree than ever, but without 2 these extended battles become more predictable, less dynamic, less fun, and ends up working against 1. The vehicle balance in Reach is pretty rocky at the moment but I have less concern of it with those tweaks being much easier.

Yeah... I really miss being able to make your way practically all the way across a map never touching the ground, only jumping from object to object. I mean, there were hundreds, probably thousands of videos dedicated JUST to skillful jumping -- and Reach COMPLETELY eliminated that element. One big way to tell a new player from an experienced one in Halo 1/2/3 was if they knew all the little shortcuts on various maps.

 

[Ten-Song]

2) Stuck with old school jumping and movement mechanics

What?

 

[Son of Godzilla]

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO. The short lifespan, the grenade spam, the repeated deaths after killing a player, charging in to strip the shields (which is more of a problem under the new system than it ever was in the previous Halo games), the boring gunplay. And this is Slayer Pro.

I'm not seeing it. That little cubbyhole is utter death and both teams deserve to boringly trade kills if they are both rushing it.

 

[DeadFalling]

The people who miss the jumps and what not, the jetpack is the jump. I use that thing religiously now. It doesn't have to take you a mile into the sky every time you use it. I've grown accustomed to the range of the jump in Reach and compensate accordingly with light taps of the jetpack. The jetpack is giving me the ability to do everything I loved to do in Halo3, as far as game physics and stuff. Stop using Sprint. Stop using Armor Lock. Stop using Camo. Jetpack is freaking amazing.

No jetpacks in Slayer Pro.

 

[Striker]

Halo 1 was fast, but fit the gameplay. Halo 2 had perfect movement and Halo 3 you felt like a turtle at times (at least on big maps). With Reach, you're maneuverability can change with sprint and jetpack. Cloak can help a ton in situations, as I've done this in Invasion matches. Once the grenade radius, amount and those other basic tweaks are adjusted, there will be less predictability in the gameplay than we've seen from Halo 2 and Halo 3.

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO. The short lifespan, the grenade spam, the repeated deaths after killing a player, charging in to strip the shields (which is more of a problem under the new system than it ever was in the previous Halo games), the boring gunplay. And this is Slayer Pro.

You never had grenade spam in Halo 3? Small rooms and lots of grenade at hand - that isn't something unexpected. We had those issues in previous games as well. Hoping the amount of grenades can be reduced in smaller maps and the problem will cease. Unsure about the boring gunplay line, perhaps you can expand on that comment.

 

[Jex]

Don't alter jumping - it's perfect as it is.

 

[GDJustin]

Just pulled a 1663 on Powerhouse, with 21 kills, including a Hammer Streak *flex* Ended up with a 1582 for the day. :lol :lol

I am *not* a good Halo player (K/D ratio is .9), but it was nice to get a taste of what the good players must feel almost every game, ha. I could do no wrong... stuck a dude in front of me, sprint, jumped, lobbed my 2nd sticky across the map... boom: Stuck another dude off a building. Multiple Hammer double kills. Pistol sniping dudes from across the map.

It was amazing.

At one point I rounded a corner and literally bumped into the enemy, who had the hammer. I quickly melee'd, backed up, at which point he swung the hammer and missed. Popped him with the pistol for the kill.

IDK if I was host or what... but it was a badass round.

 

[urk]

IDK if I was host or what... but it was a badass round.

Everybody else was probably just too busy not being able to make any sweet jumps.

 

[Ramirez]

Don't alter jumping - it's perfect as it is.

No, it's not. You can't even freaking jump the ledges on Powerhouse and they're like 3 feet tall. I can't count the times I've tried to jump into the noob tube bathroom only to get stuck on the wall and then gunned down because it completely stops my momentum. In past games, you could have done this with ease, with no break in your movement.

 

[GhaleonEB]

You never had grenade spam in Halo 3? Small rooms and lots of grenade at hand - that isn't something unexpected. We had those issues in previous games as well. Hoping the amount of grenades can be reduced in smaller maps and the problem will cease. Unsure about the boring gunplay line, perhaps you can expand on that comment.

Of course. But in Reach, you have much more motivation to unload those grenades because you know they're going to be significantly deadlier. This is due to the damage (which is being tweaked), but also the inability of the enemy to move out of the way, because jump height is much lower, movement is slower, and their health is quite often depleted due to the health system. If you get a grenade near them, it's going to do significantly more damage for those reasons, and often result in a kill all on its lonesome.

Good players in Halo 3 - and I was not one of them - mastered the art of the frag grenade to the feet and a follow-up BR headshot for the quick kill. I was on the receiving end far more than the dealing. With Reach, there's no skill to that kind of combo: everyone is doing it because it's going to be effective if you get your grenade anywhere near the target. You don't need to be as accurate and you don't need to catch the player off-guard. Both were requisites in Halo 3. And a good chunk of the time in Reach, you don't even need to follow-up with a headshot, if their health was depleted from a previous battle.

When a grenade gets thrown at you in the other Halo games, what do you do? Jump out of the way to minimize the damage. That doesn't do you a whole lot of good in Reach.

 

[GDJustin]

Everybody else was probably just too busy not being able to make any sweet jumps.

This is the round: http://www.bungie.net/stats/reach/gamestats.aspx?gameid=9239081&player=ErrorJustin

This is the video where I stared down the hammer and lived: http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1047067

Fair warning: The video is not that interesting. It was sweet when it happened though. I mean, how often do you bump into a hammer-wielding enemy and live...

 

[Circle T]

If anyone has any minutes I would be forever greatful if you rendered my Vehicular Manslaughter run.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1042034

It is 1:43.

Since I have 250+ minutes going largely unused, I rendered this for you (in HD). It will be done in a few mins from the time of this post (11PM PDT).

 

[NameGenerated]

Here is a funny moment that I enjoyed.

Spotting my targets.

Going in for the kills...oh crap, grenade launcher!

Things are looking bad.

Bail out!

Like the phoenix rising out of the ashes, I prepare for my triumphant return.

*runs out of juice*

Damn.

 

[Ramirez]

Of course. But in Reach, you have much more motivation to unload those grenades because you know they're going to be significantly deadlier. This is due to to the damage (which is being tweaked), but also the inability of the enemy to move out of the way, because jump height is much lower, movement is slower, and their health is quite often depleted due to the health system. If you get a grenade near them, it's going to do significantly more damage for those reasons, and often result in a kill all on its lonesome.

Good players in Halo 3 - and I was not one of them - mastered the art of the frag grenade to the feet and a follow-up BR headshot for the quick kill. I was on the receiving end far more than the dealing. With Reach, there's no skill to that kind of combo: everyone is doing it because it's going to be effective if you get your grenade anywhere near the target. And a good chunk of the time, you don't even need to follow-up with a headshot, if their health was depleted from a previous battle.

When a grenade gets thrown at you in the other Halo games, what do you do? Jump out of the way. That doesn't do you a whole lot of good in Reach.

This X1000. If you think the nades in 3 were weak, you just sucked at throwing them. They were literally the perfect assist weapon to your gun, now they're more useful than your gun most of the time.

^lol@pics

 

[DeadFalling]

Everybody else was probably just too busy not being able to make any sweet jumps.

:lol :lol Maybe so.

Like the phoenix rising out of the ashes, I prepare for my triumphant return.

*runs out of juice*

Damn.

Hah, that happens to me all the time on sword base. I'm thinking, hell, ima just fly on to the other side and finish him! just to get my head barely over the ledge rail and fall to the bottom level.

 

[XenoRaven]

Man when the beta first came out I thought everyone complaining was crazy. I still think some of those people are, and I think a lot of people are expecting Reach to be something it's not. But I'm starting to see where some of the complaints are coming from. Fortunately, most of what I'm seeing is already being addressed for the final game.

Still, I want to shoot myself every time Stockpile on Sword Base comes up and I'm on the team that has to bring their flags to the Death Base.

 

[Iknos]

This one just shows the power of a grenade.

Tried an experiment too. Had a couple of AR shots hit me and had a bit of shields taken off. Other guy throws nade in front of me and I purposefully walk towards it. Maybe I managed to get right over it but it did kill me...though I did think it was a few feet in front of me.

Should have had the piece of mind to save the film to see what really happened.

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO.

That clip represents the sort of "gunplay" you get with at least 50% of Reach. Things change with power weapons...but those just mean one/two hit kills.

Those 2 changes you mentioned will help I think. Apply those changes to the video you saw...people will throw less nades and not go in for those melee attacks if they aren't as effective in taking down shields.

People will still throw nades in that corner but never while they are engaging you.

In H3 it was suicidal to opt to throw a nade at the guy while you were shooting at each other in the open. In Reach it's so common.

The Reach mode of thinking is "I shot him a few times if I throw this nade it will most likely kill him". And that's true.

In H3 it was "I shot him a few times if I throw a nade now it's not going to kill him just hurt him...I might as well keep shooting or reload or switch to secondary".

I'm talking about open one on one battles. Not some war of attrition between two guys who have the luxury of cover.

The stats at the end of the game tell me the whole story. The Guns/Nades/Melee stats at the end are what I look at and I see a large percentage of kills are from nades and melee. For a lot of players over 50% of kills come from these things.

Can't call that "gunplay" when most people are killed by nades or fists.

With the rocket speed slowed down a tad and the jumping made less pronounced modes like Rockets Only could be...sucky?

Too bad because the ragdoll in this game is phenomenal!

You never had grenade spam in Halo 3? Small rooms and lots of grenade at hand - that isn't something unexpected. We had those issues in previous games as well. Hoping the amount of grenades can be reduced in smaller maps and the problem will cease. Unsure about the boring gunplay line, perhaps you can expand on that comment.

You are right but never had people throw this many nades while playing in general.

Read my above "line of thinking" posts. Reach players think that "hey I shot him a couple of times...time to kill him off with an innaccurate nade toss." and it works.

 

[NOKYARD]

does this explain the reduction in your jump height?

I mean, how often do you bump into a hammer-wielding enemy and live...

hundreds of times over the course of a weekend… once every 4 weeks

 

[les papillons sexuels]

I'd say the problem with grenades is the number of grenades available.

It seems like bungie had the right idea placing less in maps, but they didn't really account for the number of grenades that become available increase as players die, and that spam is still consistent.

I'd say 1 grenade per player would help curve the grenade spam, and either require you to save your grenade, or to properly coordinate with a team-mate to properly spam a location.

 

[GodfatherX]

so i got an overkill...pretty cool vid of it in my file share

 

[Kuroyume]

So what you guys are saying is that instead of adjusting the jumping to what's been done before they should simply adjust the size of that ledge on Powerhouse? :lol

Good players in Halo 3 - and I was not one of them - mastered the art of the frag grenade to the feet and a follow-up BR headshot for the quick kill. I was on the receiving end far more than the dealing. With Reach, there's no skill to that kind of combo: everyone is doing it because it's going to be effective if you get your grenade anywhere near the target. You don't need to be as accurate and you don't need to catch the player off-guard. Both were requisites in Halo 3. And a good chunk of the time in Reach, you don't even need to follow-up with a headshot, if their health was depleted from a previous battle.

That was fun at all but it's really an exaggeration. Halo 3 "gunplay" was awful. There were so many useless weapons in that game. Dual wielding was in there. The AR was useless without a melee. No hitscan in the game made it a mess. While the BR+Grenade combo was nice I think the current setup is much more enjoyable with the DMR and Pistol. I like the feel of pulling the trigger for every shot. I'm not even sure I can agree with the grenade not having to be as accurate. Bouncing grenades of surfaces was something special in Halo 3, but it's kind of hard to toss a grenade where it needs to go in Halo Reach since they don't bounce at all. Good luck trying to bounce a grenade to the flag corner of the Powerhouse base from outside. It won't happen. I also think that the reticle stuff, rate of fire, clip size, and the fact that you only get one shot rather than a spread makes it more difficult to get a kill shot in rather than the BR in the previous game.

 

[Ramirez]

Spawning with one grenade fixes nothing, on maps like Swordbase it just makes it even more difficult to flush good players out of the top area.

 

[Deputy Moonman]

No jetpacks in Slayer Pro.

I don't like slayer pro for that very reason.

I rendered 4 clips from a headhunter game in Sword Base. Granted, I'm playing Headhunter, the people I played against weren't the best, and it's obvious that I'm kind of wild with the pistol, but i think the clips demonstrate how jetpacks really open up the gameplay.

When using armor lock everyone focuses on you. Sprint doesn't afford you the ability to hang around for extra kills when your health is low. Invis is semi-useful if you're not shooting a gun, otherwise its not useful. Jetpacks give you maneuverability, they dont prevent you from shooting while using them, and they allow for some of the old school crazy rambo moments from the previous halo game. Also, you can make all the jumps you can handle. These aren't amazing wow blow you away highlight clips. But they're fun and show some regular game-play jetpack usage.

clip 1
clip 2
clip 3
clip 4

Oh yeah. at times, jetpacks save you from grenades too.

 

[les papillons sexuels]

Spawning with one grenade fixes nothing, on maps like Swordbase it just makes it even more difficult to flush good players out of the top area.

that's a flaw with the map design, it has nothing to do with the grenade problem. Just like construct had a similar problem with sword/mauler camping at the lifts. Also, if you're a good player, you've already learned to avoid the lifts unless you're certain it's safe, not to mention sticky grenades stick in the lift half the time anyways. And there are several ways to counter that, from plasma pistol, to jet packing to avoid the lifts.

 

[Sill4]

When a grenade gets thrown at you in the other Halo games, what do you do? Jump out of the way to minimize the damage. That doesn't do you a whole lot of good in Reach.

I don't get this. Am I the only person who gets to play Reach with AA?

Jet pack away from them, use Armor Lock, Sprint away. You make it sound like grenades are all powerful nukes that there is no escape from.

 

[Kuroyume]

Btw, if Bungie brings the jumps back in I think it would fit in the game. Just being silly.... Any adjustments to the gun stuff could ruin what they have here though.

 

[dslgunstar]

I just cannot get any consistency going with this game.

1300, 1600, 1100, 1700...

+9, -3, +1, -10....

Those arent actual numbers, but you get the jist. I never feel in control of my destiny with this game. On a kill-by-kill or death-by-death basis, I never really feel like I definitely earned a kill or deserved to die, its just what the game 'decided'.


I know how the game works, what Im supposed to do, but sometimes the exact same motor input and exact same sequence of events (grenades, melees, headshots) will result in a kill, sometimes they don't.

Im tired of trying to figure it out. It's still a fun game, albeit frustrating at times, but it doesnt have the consistency of Halo 3, and none of the kills or wins feel as satisfying as a result.

 

[DD-11]

Of course. But in Reach, you have much more motivation to unload those grenades because you know they're going to be significantly deadlier. This is due to the damage (which is being tweaked), but also the inability of the enemy to move out of the way, because jump height is much lower, movement is slower, and their health is quite often depleted due to the health system. If you get a grenade near them, it's going to do significantly more damage for those reasons, and often result in a kill all on its lonesome.

Good players in Halo 3 - and I was not one of them - mastered the art of the frag grenade to the feet and a follow-up BR headshot for the quick kill. I was on the receiving end far more than the dealing. With Reach, there's no skill to that kind of combo: everyone is doing it because it's going to be effective if you get your grenade anywhere near the target. You don't need to be as accurate and you don't need to catch the player off-guard. Both were requisites in Halo 3. And a good chunk of the time in Reach, you don't even need to follow-up with a headshot, if their health was depleted from a previous battle.

When a grenade gets thrown at you in the other Halo games, what do you do? Jump out of the way to minimize the damage. That doesn't do you a whole lot of good in Reach.

Reach is great. I love the reduced jump--there is far less bunny hopping around during firefights, which is how it should be. I hope they don't touch it. I actually hope they make it so that your accuracy is shit while jumping, but I know that's not happening.

There are just too many grenades. This has always been a problem with Halo. 3 was the worst. I don't have a problem with grenades being powerful, but they should be treated almost like a power weapon. So much so that you just don't throw them out casually, as is the case now. Here comes a red dot...grenade! I'm in a firefight...grenade! Getting shot in the back, race around the corner...grenade! Teammate in a fight...grenade! Almost cashed in these flags...grenade!

I just hope that they reintroduce decisions in Halo again. Because right now, it's not a decision to throw a grenade, it's a foregone conclusion that a grenade will be throw in every firefight Fix grenades, tweak melee, and all those problems go away.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

This clip is a microcosm of everything that's wrong with Reach's gameplay, IMO. The short lifespan, the grenade spam, the repeated deaths after killing a player, charging in to strip the shields (which is more of a problem under the new system than it ever was in the previous Halo games), the boring gunplay. And this is Slayer Pro.

lol pretty much.

Invasion is just not fun. It's the SLOWEST fps gametype I've ever played, and that's saying something in a Halo game.

I back up Ghal's and a few others opinions on this game and the overall fun factor isn't really there. I have almost a 2.0 kdr in arena but i've stopped caring about it. Everything is just completely random and the encounters don't make up for the calm running in-between like they used to in previous games. It's like a fucked up Unreal Tournament bastard child with Halo genes. Playing this game competitively would give you a god damn stroke before a sincere feeling of success.

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't get this. Am I the only person who gets to play Reach with AA?

Jet pack away from them, use Armor Lock, Sprint away. You make it sound like grenades are all powerful nukes that there is no escape from.

There are situational ways to avoid grenades. Though "jetpack away" is too slow, I do use sprint to avoid them - though often running forward is either not an option or suicidal - and people do use armor lock, though that makes you a sitting duck when it runs out. I would not describe any of those solutions as ideal.

But you're missing the point: I, and Eazy and others, are discussing how the base player traits affect the efficacy of grenades, and how those same traits affect player movement around the map. And in combination, how they make the combat much less dynamic as a result.

I like the armor abilities, and think (some tweaks to AL aside) they're well designed. I have no objections there. But I'm using armor abilities a fraction of the time I play, and the rest of the gameplay is impacted by everything else.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

There are situational ways to avoid grenades. Though "jetpack away" is too slow, I do use sprint to avoid them - though often running forward is either not an option or suicidal - and people do use armor lock, though that makes you a sitting duck when it runs out. I would not describe any of those solutions as ideal.

But you're missing the point: I, and Eazy and others, are discussing how the base player traits affect the efficacy of grenades, and how those same traits affect player movement around the map. And in combination, how they make the combat much less dynamic as a result.

I like the armor abilities, and think (some tweaks to AL aside) they're well designed. I have no objections there. But I'm using armor abilities a fraction of the time I play, and the rest of the gameplay is impacted by everything else.

The fact that they cite AA's as a way to justify an imbalanced core gameplay element means that they're missing the point completely. Same with the jumping and overall sluggishness.

 

[Bryant]

I got myself a plasma turret in invasion and held off the enemy team trying to take the core. One guy was very upset and confused :lol I noticed this shows up as a ? on bnet, and the model looks exactly like the one from H3, just with a different shader perhaps. Anyway, its neat to actually play in third person again.

 

[Striker]

That was fun at all but it's really an exaggeration. Halo 3 "gunplay" was awful. There were so many useless weapons in that game. Dual wielding was in there. The AR was useless without a melee. No hitscan in the game made it a mess. While the BR+Grenade combo was nice I think the current setup is much more enjoyable with the DMR and Pistol. I like the feel of pulling the trigger for every shot. I'm not even sure I can agree with the grenade not having to be as accurate. Bouncing grenades of surfaces was something special in Halo 3, but it's kind of hard to toss a grenade where it needs to go in Halo Reach since they don't bounce at all. Good luck trying to bounce a grenade to the flag corner of the Powerhouse base from outside. It won't happen. I also think that the reticle stuff, rate of fire, clip size, and the fact that you only get one shot rather than a spread makes it more difficult to get a kill shot in rather than the BR in the previous game.

The BR/grenade combo was probably the most efficient way of killing players without using a power weapon. The Carbine was another nice way to counter, but outside those two, it's really splitting hairs for listing weapons that actually are fun to use and are credible enough to enter a battle without needing a melee or grenade to complete the balance. I'm not entirely sure, or understanding, how that makes a FPS's gun-play entertaining. There should be multiple weapons for this concept, and not only one or two.

Fix the grenade radius, amount, or whatever - and the rest will take care of itself. More players will become better with using a Pistol, I imagine, once the reticle is more thickened and has less transparency.

there is far less bunny hopping around during firefights, which is how it should be

That's how I feel, also. Not my cup of tea shooting guys in the back who are jumping hopping around like a frog trying to avoid me, rather than trying to shoot his gun. But at the same time, they need to counter-act this with less grenades from dead bodies and at the start. Mindless tossing has been around since CE. With the way they've decided to change up jump height, AA being added, and others, they didn't seem to keep in mind the grenade paradise that is sitting there at every dead corpse.

 

[GodfatherX]

forgot to the link
http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=1047353