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[Raide]

So is there a way for BUNGIE to go ahead with these changes without totally alienating the longtime HALO fans that don't like the overall changes we are seeing in REACH?

Yeah make Custom Games/Playlists that allow people to tweak things such as weapon damage, amount of grenades, gravity etc. If they give people more varied Forge options, then some of those issues can be reduced without having to redesign the whole MP feel.

Wait, they should somehow make Elite rolls kill people JUST so we can have that gametype.

Gametype: Sonic the Elite!

:O


That would be awesome.

 

[feel]

Man, I've been having such good times now. The first few days were awful for me, but something just clicked yesterday, I still die and lose a lot, but at least I'm not frustrated about it, I just stopped caring so much, and started having fun. I'm even voting for regular slayer instead of seeking pro. Feels good to not hate the new Halo any more. I love Halo Reach.

That being said, some polish, tweaks and balancing are needed, but this is just the beta.

If you have full health and full shields, a single 'nade will NOT kill you. However, if some of your health is already depleted (regardless of shield strength), that's a different story.

Urk's extensive Beta testing showed that it actually takes 3 grenades to kill a player when you start with full health/shield and let your shields recharge between nades.

That said, our testing in the latest 'main' branch build just now had different results.

EDIT: Yes, referring only to Frag Grenades here.

Good to be assured that grenades are being tweaked, hopefully for the better.

 

[Blueblur1]

I keep having this thought and not posting it. I feel weaker and meeker as a Spartan III in Reach than I did as an ODST in H3: ODST. It makes me :lol .

 

[Neverender]

Does anyone else experience a stutter when someone joins their Xbox Live Pa while they're playing Reach?

 

[BenzMoney]

Complains no longer able to out manuever people yet AA far too powerful.

Dude, it's a beta. You're supposed to give your feedback. Chill out and stop taking it so personally.

How do complaints about the fact that the maneuverability has been nerfed automatically make the suggestion that AA's are overpowered invalid? Some of the AA's feel overpowered (like sprint) because the maneuverability has been nerfed. If I can't avoid someone who's rushing straight at me, what am I supposed to do?

DMR should be 4 shot because it's impossible to kill but it's also impossible to dodge needler.

The needler locks on, the DMR doesn't. You can't dodge needles without an obstruction or armor lock. You can dodge headshots.

Complains Sword/Shotgun + Sprint are as imba as the obviously overlooked hammer sprint. It's silly.

I didn't say AS imbalanced, but they're close. How is that silly? I can't dodge out of the way. You should be able to sprint at me from 50ft away with a sword while I'm peppering you with shots and get the kill before I'm able to kill you with my gun? THAT is silly.

 

[Wiggum2007]

I keep having this thought and not posting it. I feel weaker and meeker as a Spartan III in Reach than I did as an ODST in H3: ODST. It makes me :lol .

Dem ODST's could flip fuckin' tanks yo!

 

[Trasher]

I'm kinda wishing that there were ZERO armor abilities in Arena. Sprint's getting on my nerves. Especially when you sprint in to someone and get bounced all over the place.

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Can I ask a question?

Is the DMR supposed to be a 1 headshot kill even if someone has full shield/life?

Because I nailed someone last night THREE times in the head and they didn't die. And before people jump in saying I didn't shoot them in the head.

They were LITERALLY standing still (I believe it was a person not at their controller since they didn't react to the first 2 shots) and I had time to zoom in, take a few seconds to line up my shot and fire.

3 shots TO THE HEAD with the DMR, no death.

But if it's not meant to kill in one with headshots, then that's fine. But my impression was that it IS meant to do that.

Does the fact that the shots were to the SIDE of his head make a difference?

Please don't tell me the DMR is the ne BR. Please dont.

 

[dslgunstar]

Can I ask a question?

Is the DMR supposed to be a 1 headshot kill even if someone has full shield/life?

Because I nailed someone last night THREE times in the head and they didn't die. And before people jump in saying I didn't shoot them in the head.

They were LITERALLY standing still (I believe it was a person not at their controller since they didn't react to the first 2 shots) and I had time to zoom in, take a few seconds to line up my shot and fire.

3 shots TO THE HEAD with the DMR, no death.

But if it's not meant to kill in one with headshots, then that's fine. But my impression was that it IS meant to do that.

Does the fact that the shots were to the SIDE of his head make a difference?

Please don't tell me the DMR is the ne BR. Please dont.

It was never meant to do that. It kills in a single headshot AFTER popping the enemy's shields. 4 shots (to the body or head, doesnt matter) to lower shields, then a single shot to the head for a kill.

Only power-weapons can break shields and kill in one shot.

EDIT: The exception is in SWAT mode, where nobody has shields. So one perfect headshot will put a player down.

 

[Diablohead]

Will Arena get any kind of objective ranking gametypes? I can hold my own in a DM but I do prefer to ctf or plant bombs, would be nice to get ranked for those kind of achievements over aiming for the peanut of another spartan.

 

[BenzMoney]

Its a very specific person to person thing, I think keeping the 'base' gameplay and making the additions to that would have felt a lot better, quick gameplay with Armour Abilities... yes please!

Generally though you cant please everyone, and again I think Bungie are doing an awesome job, im just not liking aspects of Reach.

Totally, 100% agree with this. The additions, abilities, new gametypes, etc, aren't the problem. The armor abilities are new, so they need to be balanced (that's the point of the beta, and not the biggest complaint) - its the core, base gameplay changes (movement, jumping, etc) that are making this game feel so.... "wrong", for lack of a better word.

 

[Mizzou Gaming]

Not sure about what Armor Lock has done for gameplay but it definately has taken the comedy films/clips to a whole new level. The Rocket Launcher ricochet shot on Waypoint is :lol

 

[big ander]

Can I ask a question?

Is the DMR supposed to be a 1 headshot kill even if someone has full shield/life?

Because I nailed someone last night THREE times in the head and they didn't die. And before people jump in saying I didn't shoot them in the head.

They were LITERALLY standing still (I believe it was a person not at their controller since they didn't react to the first 2 shots) and I had time to zoom in, take a few seconds to line up my shot and fire.

3 shots TO THE HEAD with the DMR, no death.

But if it's not meant to kill in one with headshots, then that's fine. But my impression was that it IS meant to do that.

Does the fact that the shots were to the SIDE of his head make a difference?

Please don't tell me the DMR is the ne BR. Please dont.

It's not a new BR because it's not as effective at all ranges and it has a much slower rate of fire when obeying the spread. But yes, it takes 5-6 shots, with the last one being a headshot. It's not a sniper, and I don't think anyone ever showed it off as one or anything.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Can I ask a question?

Is the DMR supposed to be a 1 headshot kill even if someone has full shield/life?

Because I nailed someone last night THREE times in the head and they didn't die. And before people jump in saying I didn't shoot them in the head.

They were LITERALLY standing still (I believe it was a person not at their controller since they didn't react to the first 2 shots) and I had time to zoom in, take a few seconds to line up my shot and fire.

3 shots TO THE HEAD with the DMR, no death.

But if it's not meant to kill in one with headshots, then that's fine. But my impression was that it IS meant to do that.

Does the fact that the shots were to the SIDE of his head make a difference?

Please don't tell me the DMR is the ne BR. Please dont.

To elaborate on what everyone else said, the only weapon that can kill with a headshot when someone has full shields is the sniper rifle. That's the way it's alway been in every Halo game. All other weapons require you to whittle down the shield first; in the case of Reach, it needs to be popped completely before a headshot can land. That's the case for all the precision weapons: DMR, Magnum, Needle Rifle.

Here is an illustration of how the DMR is to be used (posted last night): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zy_YOks5ahA#t=1m22s

 

[Mizzou Gaming]

Totally, 100% agree with this. The additions, abilities, new gametypes, etc, aren't the problem. The armor abilities are new, so they need to be balanced (that's the point of the beta, and not the biggest complaint) - its the core, base gameplay changes (movement, jumping, etc) that are making this game feel so.... "wrong", for lack of a better word.

Oh ok, these two statements(well this one and bob's comment) give me a better understanding of where some are coming from. Unfortunately, a lot of these changes I like more than the Armor Abilities and what not. Its all a matter of preferences, opinions and what not. Good luck Bungie

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

It was never meant to do that. It kills in a single headshot AFTER popping the enemy's shields. 4 shots (to the body or head, doesnt matter) to lower shields, then a single shot to the head for a kill.

Only power-weapons can break shields and kill in one shot.

EDIT: The exception is in SWAT mode, where nobody has shields. So one perfect headshot will put a player down.

ok cool.

Because the way it was being spoken about in the trailers and such made it sound like a 'deathstar'.

Which it most certainly isn't.

In SWAT it's an awesome weapon, but knowing it isn't MEANT to kill someone in one head shot makes me love it even more. It definitely has a set of 'rules' that it follows, unlike the piece of shit BR.

Also, I've changed my mind on the Focus Rifle. It needs to go BIG TIME. Stupid stupid weapon.

I think Bunige might also be doing more damage to the games perception by only having Powerhouse and Sword base be used for so many modes they're clearly not suited to.

Swordbase great for:

- Swat
- Slayer
- Headhunter
- Oddball

Sucks for:

- CTF
- Territories
- King of the Hill

Powerhouse is great for:

- Oddball
- (would be cool for) Invasion
- Slayer
- Stockpile

Sucks for:

- CTF (So badly)
- SWAT (camp/snipe fest)
- Territories

But regardless, the Focus Rifle ruins pretty much ANY objective game type.

 

[The Librarian]

Grenade power may be the same as ever, but all of the following have changed:

• The damage done at the fringes of the grenade radius has increased.
• It is harder to outrun a grenade, because movement speed has decreased.
• It is harder to jump away from a grenade, because jump height has decreased.
• Without Armor Lock or an extremely well-timed Sprint, you aren't getting away from a grenade any other way.
• Players are more likely to have sub-optimal health in Halo: Reach than in Halo 3, even if they are diligent about hunting down health packs.

Meanwhile, grenades are seemingly as plentiful as they ever were. And while surviving one grenade is a fine thing, an enemy is likely going to toss out everything he has if he's close to death, and if he's not alone, you will often find three or more frags bouncing around you. Given that many people are struggling to aim with the single-shot weapons (which I firmly believe is their failing, not the game's), it's easier to just unload every grenade you have into a space you believe an enemy to be in, especially if you suspect he is weak. Often I just lob a grenade at any red Xs I'm near, because I'm likely to catch someone with their shield(/pants) down.

To boot, the two maps we've experienced so far have a lot of tight, confined spaces that encourage grenade spam.

So, sure, they may be just as 'powerful' in terms of raw damage as they ever were. But the context for that power has changed.

This. All of it.

 

[Sill4]

Am I the only one that can use DMR for long range, mid range, and close combat?

Up close, if my opponent is obviously going to win with AR or Pistol, I jump up. When they go to track me, I hit the jet thruster and go up. Totally fucks up their rhythm and I finish them of with my paced DMR shots.

Armor Abilities people. Fucking learn to use them properly.

 

[dslgunstar]

I think Bunige might also be doing more damage to the games perception by only having Powerhouse and Sword base be used for so many modes they're clearly not suited to.

Swordbase great for:

- Swat
- Slayer
- Headhunter
- Oddball

Sucks for:

- CTF
- Swordbase
- Territories
- King of the Hill


AGREED. CTF in particular has no place on that map. It is alright for Stockpile though.

Powerhouse is great for:

- Oddball
- (would be cool for) Invasion
- Slayer
- Stockpile

DISAGREE. Oddball is always a race to the ball, and then a race to the grenade-launcher spawn. Once you get into that position with the ball, you've basically won the game. They need to either close off that room in Oddball, or just axe the mode on this map entirely.

Sucks for:

- CTF (So badly)
- SWAT (camp/snipe fest)
- Territories

DISAGREE. This map is made for one-flag, and by and large it works perfectly. The one glaring flaw is the number of open entry points to the flag room. Its far too easy to lock that room down with rockets and grenades because all the entry points are tight choke points. Open that room up or move the flag to another place, and its all good.

But regardless, the Focus Rifle ruins pretty much ANY objective game type.

Uh, apparently I HAVE to type something after a quote in order to post, so I guess Ill just say 'fixed'.

 

[Trickster]

Am I the only one that thinks it would be nice to have an "assist/game" number in the career stats on b.net, to go along with kills/game and deaths/game numbers? Especially now that assists play a big part in the arena ratings.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Am I the only one that can use DMR for long range, mid range, and close combat?

Up close, if my opponent is obviously going to win with AR or Pistol, I jump up. When they go to track me, I hit the jet thruster and go up. Totally fucks up their rhythm and I finish them of with my paced DMR shots.

Armor Abilities people. Fucking learn to use them properly.

I LOVE the DMR at close range, the pistol might be faster but it has so much bloom that I can usually easily kill a pistol user.

 

[The Librarian]

I don't really like CTF on Powerhouse. I mean, it's alright I guess, but it's no CTF game on Valhalla.

I miss Valhalla.

 

[AwesomeSyrup]

I have to say despite the differences between Halo 3 and Reach I still love it. It does feel quite a bit different than Halo 2 and 3 but it's still really enjoyable. I'm sure after some tweaks in the final version it will be even better. I do hope though the next Halo after Reach is like Halo 3 with a new coat of paint. BR, no armor abilities, no loadouts, and no health. You better be reading this Frankie.

 

[dslgunstar]

I don't really like CTF on Powerhouse. I mean, it's alright I guess, but it's no CTF game on Valhalla.

I miss Valhalla.

Well Valhalla is there for classic CTF, this is 1-Flag, which is perfectly suited to asymmetrical maps like Powerhouse, High Ground or Last Resort.

 

[soldat7]

So is there a way for BUNGIE to go ahead with these changes without totally alienating the longtime HALO fans that don't like the overall changes we are seeing in REACH?

They'll make small changes here and there, but the design philosophy of Reach is more or less set in stone and it's incredible. The 'longtime' Halo fans, of whom I am one, need to suck it up or play something else. Halo was stale and Reach is breathing much-needed life into the franchise.

I don't really like CTF on Powerhouse. I mean, it's alright I guess, but it's no CTF game on Valhalla.

I miss Valhalla.

Then...play Halo 3? It's not dead. Blood Gulch > Valhalla anyways.

 

[metareferential]

So Invasion tomorrow morning?

Arena went live on midnight pst?

 

[GhaleonEB]

I don't really like CTF on Powerhouse. I mean, it's alright I guess, but it's no CTF game on Valhalla.

I miss Valhalla.

It's interesting that of the four maps in the Beta, none are symmetric/two sided. When the new approach to MP maps was announced - designed for MP, injected into campaign - I was wondering what that meant for symmetric maps. They'd jump out as looking like such in campaign. I'm hesitant to read into the lack of symmetric maps in the Beta, but I do hope they're in the shipping game. I do love me some CTF classic as well, and modes like Neutral Assault.

They took a crack at two-sided games on these maps with Stockpile, but one team has a slight advantage on each of the two maps. Mind you, I'm a fan of one-sided gametypes, I'm just hoping for a mix in the final game.

So Invasion tomorrow morning?

Arena went live on midnight pst?

Top of the OP. Expect it around 11:00 am Pacific time.

 

[DMeisterJ]

Got my 1630 rating today. Yay!

Now onto wait for Invasion tomorrow.

 

[soldat7]

I do hope though the next Halo after Reach is like Halo 3 with a new coat of paint. BR, no armor abilities, no loadouts, and no health. You better be reading this Frankie.

Ugh.

 

[Thagomizer]

ok cool.




Sucks for:

- CTF
- Swordbase
- Territories
- King of the Hill

Buh?

 

[metareferential]

Top of the OP. Expect it around 11:00 am Pacific time.

Thanks, shame on me for not checking the op as I usually do.

 

[Devin Olsen]

So Invasion tomorrow morning?

Arena went live on midnight pst?

The answer is literally at the top of this page...

 

[Proc]

Swat is my favourite mode by far. I'll be content with a swat playlist with a handful of maps to go with it

 

[SnakeXs]

I peaked early. After being awesome a few days ago I've been trash for the past 24 hours or so. Ugh. All my fault and bad luck so I'm not mad, but it still sucks. Ah well. I think it's who I play with. Half of my friends joke and half mostly talk tactics and stuff. Guess which I half I suck with?

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Swat is my favourite mode by far. I'll be content with a swat playlist with a handful of maps to go with it

Same.

That and headhunter.

I seem to be SUPER consistent with SWAT, and as a mode I find it very consistent. I don't see too much bullshit happening in SWAT. It's nice. Feels 'safe'.:lol

 

[bobs...onGaf]

It's interesting that of the four maps in the Beta, none are symmetric/two sided. When the new approach to MP maps was announced - designed for MP, injected into campaign - I was wondering what that meant for symmetric maps. They'd jump out as looking like such in campaign. I'm hesitant to read into the lack of symmetric maps in the Beta, but I do hope they're in the shipping game. I do love me some CTF classic as well, and modes like Neutral Assault.

They took a crack at two-sided games on these maps with Stockpile, but one team has a slight advantage on each of the two maps. Mind you, I'm a fan of one-sided gametypes, I'm just hoping for a mix in the final game.

Top of the OP. Expect it around 11:00 am Pacific time.

Im thinking that symmetrical maps could work in campaign, but in campaign they would only let us access one side of the map. For example if the Pit was in Reach, then you might see just the right hand side of the map, but they would have closed the tunnels off so they didnt even seem to be there or would have put fencing on the tunnels like how they fence off the Red lift on Sword Base.

Thats how im expecting to see them implimented but its clear the map philosophy has changed a LOT.

 

[soldat7]

Grenade power may be the same as ever, but all of the following have changed:

• The damage done at the fringes of the grenade radius has increased.
• It is harder to outrun a grenade, because movement speed has decreased.
• It is harder to jump away from a grenade, because jump height has decreased.
• Without Armor Lock or an extremely well-timed Sprint, you aren't getting away from a grenade any other way.
• Players are more likely to have sub-optimal health in Halo: Reach than in Halo 3, even if they are diligent about hunting down health packs.

Meanwhile, grenades are seemingly as plentiful as they ever were. And while surviving one grenade is a fine thing, an enemy is likely going to toss out everything he has if he's close to death, and if he's not alone, you will often find three or more frags bouncing around you. Given that many people are struggling to aim with the single-shot weapons (which I firmly believe is their failing, not the game's), it's easier to just unload every grenade you have into a space you believe an enemy to be in, especially if you suspect he is weak. Often I just lob a grenade at any red Xs I'm near, because I'm likely to catch someone with their shield(/pants) down.

To boot, the two maps we've experienced so far have a lot of tight, confined spaces that encourage grenade spam.

So, sure, they may be just as 'powerful' in terms of raw damage as they ever were. But the context for that power has changed.

I'm sick of Halo (pre-Reach) having weak grenades. Being able to kill someone faster makes the pacing much better and more enjoyable by a long shot than in previous Halos. How many times in 2 and 3 did I poop a grenade only for my pursuer to walk right over it as if it were a mere hot coal. When I throw a grenade, I'm not wanting it to wound someone.

And much of what you're talking about has always been a part of Halo, it's just that now, grenades are more satisfying.

If you want to complain about balance, send your hate to the Hammer and the Plasma Launcher.

 

[timmytheman123]

This is probably the least fun that I have ever had at a Halo game it is so frustrating to play! I think the armor abilities are not balanced at all.

 

[soldat7]

This is probably the least fun that I have ever had at a Halo game it is so frustrating to play! I think the armor abilities are not balanced at all.

Which armor abilities are unbalanced? Just like the weapons, they're all pretty awesome in their own right.

 

[Dr. Zoidberg]

I still die and lose a lot, but at least I'm not frustrated about it, I just stopped caring so much, and started having fun.

That's how I've always played Halo multi. I enjoy winning as much as the next guy but when I lose I still have a good time playing the game. I don't get mad about it. If I wasn't having fun while losing I would have quit playing years ago because I'm mediocre at best. Maybe my approach has something to do with me liking Reach more than some others.

 

[pringles]

This is probably the least fun that I have ever had at a Halo game it is so frustrating to play! I think the armor abilities are not balanced at all.

Armor lock is crazy overpowered but otherwise I think they're balanced.

 

[zero margin]

Same.

That and headhunter.

I seem to be SUPER consistent with SWAT, and as a mode I find it very consistent. I don't see too much bullshit happening in SWAT. It's nice. Feels 'safe'.:lol

I'm so bad at SWAT, just not accurate enough I guess.

Armor lock is crazy overpowered

People still going on about this? It's really not.

 

[BrLvgThrChmstry]

I have to say despite the differences between Halo 3 and Reach I still love it. It does feel quite a bit different than Halo 2 and 3 but it's still really enjoyable. I'm sure after some tweaks in the final version it will be even better. I do hope though the next Halo after Reach is like Halo 3 with a new coat of paint. BR, no armor abilities, no loadouts, and no health. You better be reading this Frankie.

From my perspective, I've never played H2/3 online extensively. Neither held my attention very long. Reach, on the the other hand, I'm pretty sure I'll be investing a vast amount of time into. Seems a lot more team oriented, I love the loadouts...they add a much needed new dynamic to the battlefield, and No Battle Rifle.

Really enjoying it so far. I guess my only major gripe (at the moment) is the grenade spamming/AOE.

 

[remz]

Someone armor locks ->wait till in finishes and pwn them

 

[soldat7]

Someone armor locks ->wait till in finishes and pwn them

Or just toss a grenade at them right before they emerge.

 

[pringles]

People still going on about this? It's really not.

In the right hands it is. Especially if a whole team teams up and uses it.
You shoot a guy, he armor locks, his buddy walks in, you shoot him, he armor locks, first guy comes out of armor lock, you shoot him, he armor locks, other guys comes out of armor lock, kills you.

Sometimes it just looks silly though, in the hands of people that can't use it.

 

[The Librarian]

Well Valhalla is there for classic CTF, this is 1-Flag, which is perfectly suited to asymmetrical maps like Powerhouse, High Ground or Last Resort.

Powerhouse is a really bad map for 1 Flag. 99.9% of the time, it ends up one of two ways: the attacking doesn't get the flag, or the attacking team does get the flag and takes Ridge back to where they have to score. For me, the latter is much more preferable than the former because the latter quickly devolves into a mess of one team inching the flag forward until they've reached their goal. Boring.

It's interesting that of the four maps in the Beta, none are symmetric/two sided. When the new approach to MP maps was announced - designed for MP, injected into campaign - I was wondering what that meant for symmetric maps. They'd jump out as looking like such in campaign. I'm hesitant to read into the lack of symmetric maps in the Beta, but I do hope they're in the shipping game. I do love me some CTF classic as well, and modes like Neutral Assault.

They took a crack at two-sided games on these maps with Stockpile, but one team has a slight advantage on each of the two maps. Mind you, I'm a fan of one-sided gametypes, I'm just hoping for a mix in the final game.

I'm a fan of one-sided objective games too, but none are any fun with the maps available. Like you've said before (paraphrasing here), it's no fun on Sword Base because there are only two ways in, both from the front, and there isn't enough room for strategy except charging in. It's no fun on powerhouse either (see above).

Then...play Halo 3? It's not dead. Blood Gulch > Valhalla anyways.

Valhalla is light years ahead of Blood Gulch in design and balance.

I'm sick of Halo (pre-Reach) having weak grenades. Being able to kill someone faster makes the pacing much better and more enjoyable by a long shot than in previous Halos. How many times in 2 and 3 did I poop a grenade only for my pursuer to walk right over it as if it were a mere hot coal. When I throw a grenade, I'm not wanting it to wound someone.

Uh, Reach plays at a slower pace than Halo 3. Increasing the grenade damage doesn't add anything at all except more frustration.

 

[Diablohead]

I moaned about a shitty night but I have withdraws, need to play a few more before sleep to try and raise that shitty trueskill :lol sometimes I find playing solo is better then going in as a team as the opposing side feels like a bunch of solo players also, which can be good and means I can go rambo on their ass.

 

[Thagomizer]

Powerhouse is a really bad map for 1 Flag. 99.9% of the time, it ends up one of two ways: the attacking doesn't get the flag, or the attacking team does get the flag and takes Ridge back to where they have to score. For me, the latter is much more preferable than the former because the latter quickly devolves into a mess of one team inching the flag forward until they've reached their goal. Boring.

I think it's actually much more exciting having to fight for every inch of ground. Just grabbing the flag and having a nice, safe run is boring; having to fight through the enemy team is so much more fun and much more satisfying when you finally get the cap.

 

[zero margin]

In the right hands it is. Especially if a whole team teams up and uses it.
You shoot a guy, he armor locks, his buddy walks in, you shoot him, he armor locks, first guy comes out of armor lock, you shoot him, he armor locks, other guys comes out of armor lock, kills you.

Sometimes it just looks silly though, in the hands of people that can't use it.

If they're gonna be cheese dicks then yeah I could see a problem in that regard, that would take some serious coordination on there part though. Talking olympic synchronized swimming levels.