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[Syracuse022]

When you think about it, this pyramid structure you're proposing for the Halo community is not unlike the structure that surrounds athletics. We'll call the green area the people who work in broadcasting, sports journalism, and other similar areas. Red can signify the players in the top-tier leagues (NBA, NFL, etc.). The blue area, then, is the general, plebeian sports-consuming public (whether they just watch the Super Bowl or played until a knee injury in high school, etc.)

Who does Nike tap when they're about to design the next shoe that they want every 12-year-old in America to want for their church basketball league games? They don't collect a whole bunch of 12-year-olds and say, "Hey, here's a Capri Sun, what can we do to make sure this shoe meets your needs when Mom drops you off for practice tomorrow?" They go to LeBron James, give him a shoe he's happy with, offer some monetary compensation for his endorsement of the shoe, then sit back and relax as 12-year-olds everywhere rush out to Foot Locker.

The majority of the money made from athletics is in the blue area, but you're crazy if you think that the decisions being made (in league offices, at ESPN headquarters, at major athletic equipment retailers) revolve around anything but the green and the red.

I propose... Trickle-down Halo

 

[Gabotron ES]

I'd imagine that'd be Halo CE.

2 Weapons, 2 Grenade Types, 8 Grenades, no AAs, OP starting weapon, indestructible vehicles, etc.

But why should I buy a game I have already played?
I want to play a whole new Halo game, not a remasterd version of it (we are already getting one), I wouldn't mind a few changes while the halo core mechanics are kept the same.
And yes, reticle bloom is not "halo".

 

[Tunavi]

Frankie are you getting all of this?

Spoiler

SAVE US

 

[thezerofire]

But why should I buy a game I have already played?
I want to play a whole new Halo game, not a remasterd version of it (we are already getting one), I wouldn't mind a few changes while the halo core mechanics are kept the same.
And yes, reticle bloom is not "halo".

because you can't play it online

 

[Rickenslacker]

But why should I buy a game I have already played?

Because you haven't. Halo CE has never had a reliable online multiplayer component. Sometimes though in a sequel what I want is more. Sometimes I don't want a radical change in the formula, I just want more of that formula. Halo's never really given me that, but that's just my desire.

 

[Ken]

Again Wu, you just argued the games success has to be purely business arguing against my point but providing no real proof. which it does not. Yes a company has to make some money but after that there is many different incentives. Intrinsic/Extrinsic values and the such, there's something you actually learn in business school.

Furthermore, you didn't present anything that shows that casuals won't play any settings given because they DO care, because they don't care. I see this a lot too that players with guests don't even actually vote, I see it quite a bit actually. So catering to hardcore players would prove a better result since both groups would then be happy.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/31100/news/ubisoft-youre-never-going-to-keep-hardcore-ghost-recon-fans-happy/

When a game's gameplay is completely changed to appeal to casuals, commercial success is definitely the most important goal. Look at the older entries of Splinter Cell, Rainbow Six, and Ghost Recon, games that emphasized being slow and tactical to complete missions. Having played Conviction and Vegas 2, slow and tactical has been traded off for fast and easy gameplay (Mark and Execute, cover systems) which definitely appeal to the mainstream audience these days. It's sad but the market definitely dictates a lot of the directions games take these days, including Halo.

The talk of "commercial needs" in the story is something I would imagine not to be unique to just Ubisoft, but Bungie as well. The "hardcore" Halo players don't need to be sold on Reach; those players will be there day 1 for the Halo name and the core Halo gameplay like they have been for 2, 3, and ODST. On the other hand, casuals need a reason to buy Reach if they played previous entries but had already traded them off for Call of Duty. If casuals see nothing new in Reach, they'll dismiss it as another Halo, which is how I'd imagine armor abilities spawned. Call of Duty had perks to individualize players in a game, so Reach received load outs. The trio of shooting, grenades, and melee which everyone was accustomed to and either liked or didn't now became paced shooting, grenades, melee, and armor abilities, a second chance to try to grab a hold of newer players and to keep them on for more Halo in the future.

Playlists like Living Dead see popularity because they appeal to people who don't care much for the competitive side of Halo but will keep Reach in their Xbox for another day of Living Dead. I've done this myself with Starcraft 1. For awhile, I'd play SC every day but I wasn't playing ladder games because I had no interest in those types of competitive 1v1 games. I'd play UMS (custom games) like Marine Defense because that's what appealed to me and that's what Starcraft needed to do to keep me playing and have 1 more person in their online population.

As for not adding changes that "hardcore" players want, it's impossible for any one person to speak for the entire "hardcore" Halo population which is why changes you might dislike are welcomed by other players who consider themselves "hardcore" as well. Also, people will continue playing copious amounts of Halo even if they never see the changes they want implemented.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

But why should I buy a game I have already played?
I want to play a whole new Halo game, not a remasterd version of it (we are already getting one), I wouldn't mind a few changes while the halo core mechanics are kept the same.
And yes, reticle bloom is not "halo".

I agree with you 100% but im talking in terms of a sequel, layering the new stuff on top of what already makes Halo great would be the best way to handle things.

I get the feeling with Reach though that there wasnt much space left to work around the current gameplay model, so they had to kind of reimagine Halo a little.

So I guess thats the real dilemma, if you have already layered so much onto the core experience that you cant think of what to add next, then the only option you have is to reimagine the whole thing. Re imagining the whole thing is probably going to completely change the core and alienate the hardcore fans and your left in a place where you might aswell just make a new ip.

I honestly think that if you cant figure out where to manouvre new good stuff into the game and people are demanding a sequel your stuck between a rock and a hard place lol.

That said finally playing Halo 1 over live would have been amazing, I would have paid for the same game again gladly in that unique scenario lol.

 

[Steelyuhas]

In this regard, Halo CE works well when everyone is on the same skill level then.

People good with the pistol will trounce people who aren't entirely skilled at the game. Every. Single. Time.

It creates a dynamic where it's not fun for people with different skill gaps to play with each other. Hence, TrueSkill is needed, and then we get to the excellent game that is Halo 3.

People that are good stomping on people that are bad is without question a good thing. A game should not put elements in that prohibits an individual to beat players that they are better than. Halo CE is partially considered such a good game because it have a tremendous skill gap. A proper skill gap is something that has been lacking Halo 3 and Reach and is one of the main reasons why they are not nearly as good as CE and 2.

Trueskill separates the good players from the bad, the game itself should not be putting in its own limitations on players skill just to make things more even between different skilled players (a small skill gap).

 

[thezerofire]

I agree with you 100% layering the new stuff on top of what already makes Halo great would be the best way to handle things.

I get the feeling with Reach though that there wasnt much space left to work around the current gameplay model, so they had to kind of reimagine Halo a little.

So I guess thats the real dilemma, if you have already layered so much onto the core experience that you cant think of what to add next, then the only option you have is to reimagine the whole thing. Re imagining the whole thing is probably going to completely change the core and alienate the hardcore fans and your left in a place where you might aswell just make a new ip.

I honestly think that if you cant figure out where to manouvre new good stuff into the game and people are demanding a sequel your stuck between a rock and a hard place lol.

I honestly think if they just released Halo CE with matchmaking and ranking and all that and just added new maps every now and again people would play it forever. I mean, CS:S and 1.6 are still some of the most popular games online.

 

[Syracuse022]

I honestly think if they just released Halo CE with matchmaking and ranking and all that and just added new maps every now and again people would play it forever. I mean, CS:S and 1.6 are still some of the most popular games online.

QFT. But then they'd splinter the userbase.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

I honestly think if they just released Halo CE with matchmaking and ranking and all that and just added new maps every now and again people would play it forever. I mean, CS:S and 1.6 are still some of the most popular games online.

Just to be clear I was just talking in terms of a sequel, the best way to approach that (in my opinion) is to keep the core experience and layer new stuff on top of that without compromising it.

When it comes down to remakes. They should really just be faithful remakes. If you are going to add to them then why not just make a sequel and add to that instead?

 

[NullPointer]

Some people would play that forever yes. But not as many as you think imo.

 

[Homeboyd]

Slots seem to be loose today. Got a 6k and a 3k 2 out of 3 so far.

Also, Blargball and Jump Pack Grifball?! Sweet.

 

[thezerofire]

Speaking as a casual myself during Halo CE, we had no idea what the shit we were doing. We couldn't aim right, move around right, none of that. But we learned how, because we were forced to. Once someone got good with a pistol, everyone had to get good with it to keep up. Now, however, you never need to really get good with a DMR to be decent at Reach. There is nothing to force you to get better. My two cents on the matter.

I'm going to post this again because it seems like it was overlooked. I think that whatever they add, they need the core mechanics, and then a motivation to get better, namely a skill gap. Shooters with large skill gaps have had the longest enduring populations, as opposed to the buy-a-new-one-every-year-COD, which I'll admit might not be the best for sales, but I think it gives the developer more motivation to make something even better, not just slap new skins and maps on a game and ship it.

 

[bobs...onGaf]

Thinking about things from a different perspective.

I enjoyed the full spectrum of gameplay in Halo 1/2/3 more than I do in Reach. The gameplay seemed like it was fuller. I was happy to run and gun, to snipe, to drive or be the gunner of vehicles, to play objective, to play crazy customs etc.

I think the quality of Reach's gameplay is what skews my opinion on Reach rather than the fact that those additions exist. If the sandbox was better intergrated then I would probably love the new additions, and love Reach. The problem with Reach is, when even the basics feel wrong, the new additions are just going to skew my perception of the game more.

For example the slower movement system cant have been to help entice the mass market? Neither could the Nades? And yet it just makes the whole game feel less fun, maybe if Sprint etc was balanced into the sandbox in a way where the base gameplay didnt suffer then the whole game would feel more fun for it?

So I guess what im saying is, hopefully the next Halo game will have the new shiny stuff to bring the casuals in, but also have a good enough base gameplay to appease the hardcore fans. I feel like im not explaining this well, meh im going to sleep, im pretty sure ive been on a totally different tangeant than what people have been discussing in this thread anyway lol!

I think I was too focused on Reach to really realize that the discussion was mostly about what the market is like and who to aim the games for? All I know is I feel pretty dense right now.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Thinking about things from a different perspective.

I enjoyed the full spectrum of gameplay in Halo 1/2/3 more than I do in Reach. The gameplay seemed like it was fuller. I was happy to run and gun, to snipe, to drive or be the gunner of vehicles, to play objective, to play crazy customs etc.

I think the quality of Reach's gameplay is what skews my opinion on Reach rather than the fact that those additions exist. If the sandbox was better intergrated then I would probably love the new additions, and love Reach. The problem with Reach is, when even the basics feel wrong, the new additions are just going to skew my perception of the game more.

For example the slower movement system cant have been to help entice the mass market? Neither could the Nades? And yet it just makes the whole game feel less fun, maybe if Sprint etc was balanced into the sandbox in a way where the base gameplay didnt suffer then the whole game would feel more fun for it?

So I guess what im saying is, hopefully the next Halo game will have the new shiny stuff to bring the casuals in, but also have a good enough base gameplay to appease the hardcore fans. I feel like im not explaining this well, meh im going to sleep, im pretty sure ive been on a totally different tangeant than what people have been discussing in this thread anyway lol!

I think I was too focused on Reach to really realize that the discussion was mostly about what the market is like and who to aim the games for? All I know is I feel pretty dense right now.

Bah easy thing to do for Halo 4 is to just give us a classic mode that is as true to Halo CE as you can get. Then those of us who love classic Halo would be happy while those who don't are happy with whatever else they come up with.

 

[Steelyuhas]

Elite Grifball? How did they do that? I thought there wasn't a way to force races in custom options.

 

[ncsuDuncan]

Attention HaloGAF

Per the recent GAF guidelines, we may want to follow some new rules:

"Teabagging" will now be referred to as "Victory squatting".

"Sgt. Johnson" will now be known as "Sgt. Euphemism"

All screenshots of Cortana and Truth will be updated:

Sgt. Euphemism will now display a more family-friendly habit:

And of course, all screenshots from Halo 4 will require editing:

That is all (for now).

 

[Tunavi]

"Sgt. Johnson" will now be known as "Sgt. Euphemism"

lol at this and the prophet

great post

 

[NullPointer]

I'm going to post this again because it seems like it was overlooked. I think that whatever they add, they need the core mechanics, and then a motivation to get better, namely a skill gap. Shooters with large skill gaps have had the longest enduring populations, as opposed to the buy-a-new-one-every-year-COD, which I'll admit might not be the best for sales, but I think it gives the developer more motivation to make something even better, not just slap new skins and maps on a game and ship it.

I'd tweak this a bit to say the best formula is a game that is instantly accessible and rewarding, but has that wide skill gap you mentioned.

One of the reasons COD gets it right is that there is a wide skill gap, yet even the noobiest noob fresh off the noob bus can get the drop on a 10th prestige god with a few well placed bursts. Halo has a wide skill gap as well, but you have to invest far more time into playing it as a beginner to find the fun. That explains to me the popularity of some of Reach's playlists - they may not be the most balanced but they are instant gratification for players who aren't as good as most of you here.

"Sgt. Johnson" will now be known as "Sgt. Euphemism"

OK, this killed me. lol.

 

[thezerofire]

I'd tweak this a bit to say the best formula is a game that is instantly accessible and rewarding, but has that wide skill gap you mentioned.

One of the reasons COD gets it right is that there is a wide skill gap, yet even the noobiest noob fresh off the noob bus can get the drop on a 10th prestige god with a few well placed bursts. Halo has a wide skill gap as well, but you have to invest far more time into playing it as a beginner to find the fun. That explains to me the popularity of some of Reach's playlists - they may not be the most balanced but they are instant gratification for players who aren't as good as most of you here.

I wouldn't say there really is that much of a skill gap in COD. Everyone dies in a couple bullets no matter which gun you choose. But yeah I agree with it needing to be accessible. I think that goes more towards matching you with other people who are new.

 

[Smokey]

I just hopped on for the first time in at LEAST 3 months and that's being conservative. I didn't want to admit this but Reach MP just isn't as good as the other games and I don't really like it. Painful to say

But since I've been away for a long time I'm hoping back in just to see what's up.

What playlist updates have I missed?!

 

[The Librarian]

Attention HaloGAF

Per the recent GAF guidelines, we may want to follow some new rules:

I don't understand. So is quoting something like this:
"Son, I could be your daddy, but...nah nevermind."

That's bannable now?

 

[NullPointer]

I wouldn't say there really is that much of a skill gap in COD. Everyone dies in a couple bullets no matter which gun you choose.

That doesn't mean there's no skill gap, just that there's an equalizer. Even the mightiest of players will still get dropped in a heartbeat by making a stupid mistake or by an inexperienced player who gets the jump on them, but those same skilled players will win matches far, far more often, even carrying their entire teams at times. That's a good thing in my book. Its less discouraging to new players and steels them for the defeats ahead on their road to glory.

If Halo 4 can achieve that level of gratification without aping everything else about COD, everybody wins.

 

[Tunavi]

I don't understand. So is quoting something like this:
"Son, I could be your daddy, but...nah nevermind."

That's bannable now?

Whats listed in that OP is against Google's guidelines for their advertising program. NeoGAF gets money from Google, so we have to follow their rules in order to support the site financially.

 

[MrBig]

I don't understand. So is quoting something like this:
"Son, I could be your daddy, but...nah nevermind."

That's bannable now?

As of last night all they want is to stop the creation of topics that solicited the offending matters. They deleted a few topics that were devoted to pics of girls, drugs, sex, and The Contest.

 

[Steelyuhas]

I am not a big fan of Grifball, but jetpack grifball is fucking amazing.

 

[thezerofire]

That doesn't mean there's no skill gap, just that there's an equalizer. Even the mightiest of players will still get dropped in a heartbeat by making a stupid mistake or by an inexperienced player who gets the jump on them, but those same skilled players will win matches far, far more often, even carrying their entire teams at times. That's a good thing in my book. Its less discouraging to new players and steels them for the defeats ahead on their road to glory.

If Halo 4 can achieve that level of gratification without aping everything else about COD, everybody wins.

The skill gap for COD though is basically who sees who first, and the skill essentially comes down to knowing your way around the map. For me, that's not enough of a skill gap. Play CE against a pro, and if he's facing away from you, he will still turn around and almost kill you if not actually kill you. Same thing withe Quake 3, Unreal, or CS: mastery of the game mechanics is what makes you win, not just knowledge of the map.

 

[Hitmonchan107]

Getting online now. LET'S DO THIS.

The Halo Bulletin is up!

 

[Tawpgun]

If anyone wants a bit of a lighthearted moment from all this srs discussion...

Render this.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=20753492&player=Tawpgun

 

[NullPointer]

The skill gap for COD though is basically who sees who first, and the skill essentially comes down to knowing your way around the map. For me, that's not enough of a skill gap. Play CE against a pro, and if he's facing away from you, he will still turn around and almost kill you if not actually kill you. Same thing withe Quake 3, Unreal, or CS: mastery of the game mechanics is what makes you win, not just knowledge of the map.

I think you're selling COD short there. There is more to it than map knowledge, although you do have an opportunity you can exploit when you see your opponent first, its not a guarantee by any means.

My main point though is about early rewards when playing for the first time. Halo takes a while to get used to, and while you're figuring things out as a new player you're usually getting destroyed over and over and over again in the process. Halo games have more of a ramp up to get to the point where you can be confident in your skills and feel like you can be truly competitive. Lower that ramp somehow, and allow new players to feel powerful from the get-go and I think there can be far more lasting mainstream appeal.

Thats also why I think some playlists are more popular than others - because they involve being very powerful from the get-go, or have equalizers like no-shields, or swords, etc.

 

[Steelyuhas]

The skill gap for COD though is basically who sees who first, and the skill essentially comes down to knowing your way around the map. For me, that's not enough of a skill gap. Play CE against a pro, and if he's facing away from you, he will still turn around and almost kill you if not actually kill you. Same thing withe Quake 3, Unreal, or CS: mastery of the game mechanics is what makes you win, not just knowledge of the map.

COD is all about controlling/setting up choke points on the map. If your team can do that effectively, its a damn shotting gallery.

 

[senador]

The skill gap for COD though is basically who sees who first, and the skill essentially comes down to knowing your way around the map. For me, that's not enough of a skill gap. Play CE against a pro, and if he's facing away from you, he will still turn around and almost kill you if not actually kill you. Same thing withe Quake 3, Unreal, or CS: mastery of the game mechanics is what makes you win, not just knowledge of the map.

You just described why I love Halo.

If anyone wants a bit of a lighthearted moment from all this srs discussion...

Render this.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=20753492&player=Tawpgun

Done. Hahaha, oh wow...

 

[The Librarian]

The Halo Bulletin is up!

Looking forward to hearing back on the San Diego panels.

 

[Tunavi]

If anyone wants a bit of a lighthearted moment from all this srs discussion...

Render this.

http://www.bungie.net/Stats/Reach/FileDetails.aspx?fid=20753492&player=Tawpgun

hahahahaha I've never seen this done before, nice

 

[thezerofire]

I think you're selling COD short there. There is more to it than map knowledge, although you do have an opportunity you can exploit when you see your opponent first, its not a guarantee by any means.

My main point though is about early rewards when playing for the first time. Halo takes a while to get used to, and while you're figuring things out as a new player you're usually getting destroyed over and over and over again in the process. Halo games have more of a ramp up to get to the point where you can be confident in your skills and feel like you can be truly competitive. Lower that ramp somehow, and allow new players to feel powerful from the get-go and I think there can be far more lasting mainstream appeal.

Thats also why I think some playlists are more popular than others - because they involve being very powerful from the get-go, or have equalizers like no-shields, or swords, etc.

I don't really think I'm selling it short much at all. I've put tons of hours into every Call of Duty game since 4, and that's basically how the gunplay goes, unless you count drop-shotting but that's not particularly difficult either.

And I thought Reach was the lowering of that ramp. But it doesn't seem to have left more lasting appeal

 

[Tawpgun]

Holy shit.

 

[The Librarian]

That's not the Mark VI.

 

[neoism]

Halo 4 To Have Armour Abilities

Halo Gaf ownt if true....

Spoiler

only include SPRINT Frankie Chief my be gettin old but dammit he should be able to sprint. :/

 

[Tawpgun]

Halo Gaf ownt if true....

Spoiler

only include SPRINT Frankie Chief my be gettin old but dammit he should be able to sprint. :/

Why do people want sprint in Halo?

If we have sprint then the base movement speed is slow. Which means strafing is gimped, holding objectives will be annoying, ect. ect.

Halo isn't a game that needs sprint and I hope it's the one goddamn game that will hold on to it's core mechanics in an age where everyone is conforming to the same FPS mold.

 

[MrBig]

That's not the Mark VI.

It look's like Jahrain's model from a few years ago http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=1968

 

[Hitmonchan107]

That's not the Mark VI.

It's hard for me to tell, but is it the Mark V? That would make sense with "Anniversary."

 

[The Librarian]

It's hard for me to tell, but is it the Mark V? That would make sense with "Anniversary."

It's the MC's helmet for Halo 4. (Ugh).

 

[NullPointer]

Halo Gaf ownt if true....

It begins...

(what a horribly written article)

It look's like Jahrain'd model from a few years ago http://hce.halomaps.org/index.cfm?fid=1968

Looks like the result of Brute and Spartan lovemaking. Master chimp?

 

[thezerofire]

pretty sure the source isn't credible. but Lord

Spoiler

Frankie

save us if otherwise

 

[neoism]

Lots of sweeping generalizations about the Halo fanbase today.

I'm frustrated with evade, armor lock, etc. just as much as you guys, but it isn't fair to assume everyone thinks that way.

The majority of Halo players do not post on ANY Halo forums.

Seriously.

I have a group of 8 or 9 friends IRL that I have played Halo with since 2001. They have logged countless hours in every game, and still play Reach all the time. You know how many of them have ever posted on a Halo forum besides me? ONE.

Removing AAs might be a popular idea within HaloGAF and the forums we frequent, but there is a vast number of Halo players that would be confused and angry when they boot up Reach and only have Sprint. These players have to be taken into account when playlist changes are made, they paid $60 for the game too.

awesome post

 

[Tunavi]

Reach is just all out of whack. Walking speed is very slow because there is sprint. There's fall damage because of jetpack. The grenades are strong because they put armor lock in. Bloom is in the game because the DMR is so damn accurate.

Bad game design, Sage. "Lets put bad game mechanics in the game that are balanced out by other bad game mechanics." Yuckkkk

 

[feel]

Getting online now. LET'S DO THIS.

The Halo Bulletin is up!

My heart stopped working there for a second when I scrolled too fast and landed on the Battle Rifle pic without reading the paragraph that leads to it...

 

[NullPointer]

Reach is just all out of whack. Walking speed is very slow because there is sprint. There's fall damage because of jetpack. The grenades are strong because they put armor lock in. Bloom is in the game because the DMR is so damn accurate.

Bad game design, Sage. "Lets put bad game mechanics in the game that are balanced out by other bad game mechanics." Yuckkkk

There's always the flawless perfection of Halo 3.

 

[neoism]

I hear this a lot from folks who think they're hardcore because they've been around for a long time. "We're responsible for the success of your game!"

This is bullshit. The hardcore (for EVERY Halo title) is a tiny subset. It's ALWAYS a tiny subset. The VAST majority of Halo players has ALWAYS been more casual than that. And surprise, surprise... lots of 'em come back game after game, even though they're not playing every night! (Or, even bigger surprise, maybe they ARE playing every night - but they're not participating in any online communities, they don't worry about what weapons are on each map, they might not even know the name of the company that makes the game. They just play.)

They're also the ones who LEAVE once a community settles down to 'hardcore mode'. (Look at Halo PC. There's still a community playing that, though it's tiny compared to the number playing, say, Reach. But they're all playing the same thing - Slayer or CTF on Blood Gulch. That's what the 'hardcore' thinks Halo PC multiplayer boils down to - and that's what casuals get bored of.)

If game companies catered specifically to their hardcore fans to the exclusion of everyone else, they'd be out of business. It's really that simple.

You talk about the most vocal ones being the most passionate - but they're also the ones who like what they like. And they don't want it to change. But that's NOT how you sell more games! So while you don't want to piss those people off too much (because they ARE vocal) - you also don't want to focus exclusively on them, because if they had their way, they'd still be playing what made them fall in love in the first place. (Face it - what the hardcore would love more than anything is if someone put in the time and effort to remove the cheating from Halo 2, right? Because that was the best multiplayer ever, right? But the rest of us - and no, I don't count myself among the 'hardcore' in this context, even though I've been in this community longer than almost ALL of you - we'd be bored shitless if that's all Bungie/343 did. And we'd find some other game company to buy stuff from.)

Game companies walk a really fine line when they have a successful title. They have to find a way to make a replacement that's BETTER than what they just did (to convince people to buy more from them) but they have to also make sure they keep the stuff that was great in the first place (because that's what people are now EXPECTING from the franchise). And sometimes, those aren't compatible goals. For a lot of GAFers, Reach went too far with the changes - the 'better' became worse.

But for other people (me, for example), Reach's gameplay is MORE fun than what came before it - at least if you judge by how much time I'm putting into it. And no, it's not because of Armor Lock, or Evade, or ARs, or any of that - I use Sprint 95% of the time, and my tool of destruction is the DMR. But I can LIVE with all that stuff that makes you guys crazy - and that's the difference, I think.

I'm getting away from the original point - the original point is that the hardcore are NOT responsible for the success of the game - by the simple fact that they're a minority. Most copies are bought by people who don't care about most of what you care about. Also, the idea of allowing your 'hardcore' fans decide the direction of your game development is a bad one, from a business standpoint. You can certainly let them INFLUENCE you - but letting them run the ship would lead to ending up on the shoals.

:O woow totally on point
shame more don't feel that way. I agree.