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Halo: Reach |OT4| This Thread is Not Your Grave, But You Are Welcome In It
- Thread starter GhaleonEB
- Start date
Dax01 said:
I think there is a tendency to refer to any new element that you don't like as a gimmick. I think that's too imprecise. To me, there are just new elements, and some work better than others. One could just as easily describe overshield as a gimmick; thing is, it works just fine.
Personally, I liked the bubble shield until everyone could spawn with one; when scarce it was like a power weapon and could be deployed as such. Imagine if everyone could spawn with overshield or camo....wait. :\
People hate on things they don't like. I'm sure the Living Dead crowd has a low opinion of MLG.Hey You said:
How about holding down an area to survive? Living Dead feels more of a survival mode than Firefight to me.Ramirez said:
Its fun having to watch your back every corner, work out a with your (zombie) team (which doesn't happen very often) on how to eliminate the humans.
Maybe we should remove firefight because its "so easy to kill" and "mindlessly kill things" and "faster kill" time.
So Halo should only be just Slayer and Objective? Nothing else? No variety.
Everything else seems too easy and only BK's play the other playlists.
I get that people like to hate on things that's popular.
The Librarian
Banned
That's what I was trying to get at. You can't label the bubble shield and the regenerator as gimmicks while avoid using the term for invisibility and overshield. Any reason you can use for the bubble shield would apply to overshield and invisibility.GhaleonEB said:
HiredN00bs
Member
I wish Living Dead was fringe...it's been the top playlist for weeks.Tunavi said:
squidhands
Member
Needler was wildly successful in overcoming the Regenerator, but no one besides Dax carries it very often. Only other thing you could do with it is shorten the healing time, which lasted way too long IMO.Ramirez said:
What would you guys classify as the "Living Dead crowd"? Players who only play that playlist? Players who's majority games are in the playlist? Players who play it regularly?somehwat? Only played the playlist once?GhaleonEB said:
Where do you guys draw the line?
It would be nice to get a variety of gametypes AND maps into the playlist.Kuroyume said:
I was planning on submitting a Classic Infection gametype but that window has closed. The base maps have a lot of camping/exploitable spots and long hallways that probably wouldn't be there on a Custom Infection map.
I think the differentiation between the OS and Bubble Shield that needs to be made is that, while they provide a similar purpose (increasing survivability), you don't get to pick when you get the benefits of the OS. You pick it up, and immediately the benefits start disappearing. The Bubble Shield (the Regenerator even more so) was an on-demand invincibility item. Additionally, it's much more difficult to brute-force the user back down to base traits than with the OS, where a PP shot or grenade basically brings it back to normal combat. This is also why the OS invincibility time during charge-up being so long is so awful, especially on maps like Guardian, where you had to avoid an entire area of a map at the start of a match because there was someone there who was literally invincible for 10 seconds. The Drop Shield was a step in the right direction in a sense due to its destructibility, which was summarily ruined by everybody being able to spam it (multiple bubble shields on maps in Halo 3 had the same effect, but it wasn't common).Dax01 said:
If it doesn't break the flow of game, give players meaningless secondary lives because they pressed the X button, sure. If people are going to throw around jetpacking as one, what makes a bubble shield any different? The gimmicks I despise are the ones that try to change the core gameplay too much without any necessary reason to. Dual wielding was a change, but it actually worked and didn't make the gameplay suffer. It wasn't broken like equipment was (press X to deploy, die, it deploys, double jumping, etc.) or have balance issues like many of those pieces and AA's do.
Powerups are what makes Halo, Halo. If they can devise a plan to add more including the camo and overshield, that's fine. One major thing in doing so is not overdoing it, and not placing them all over the map. Make people work for them.
Powerups are what makes Halo, Halo. If they can devise a plan to add more including the camo and overshield, that's fine. One major thing in doing so is not overdoing it, and not placing them all over the map. Make people work for them.
Steelyuhas
Member
Dax01 said:
I don't like using the word gimmick for something like this. I don't like the bubble shield, but I wouldn't call it a gimmick, I'd call it a poor gameplay mechanic.
I'd like to have seen it be a short burst to heal a party or give them a brief leg up, rather than run on as it did. Toss it down into a party engaged in combat and give them a five second boost, rather than what, 20 seconds or so? I like the idea as an element that could turn the tide of a certain battle, rather than create a haven for people to set up in for a while. That slowed combat down excessively.squidhands said:
Like I mentioned in my edit/other post. If custom variants were introduced to flush out the base maps, stuff like this may not happen (or just atleast not very often). If there were less "safe" places to camp (bottom of red lift and ledges on sword base, top of the tower on cage etc), I think more people would be willing to work together and hold down areas they might not have before.Ramirez said:
But yes, the state of the playlist currently is its easy kills for the humans and more of the time the zombies will not try unless they have strength in numbers.
Steelyuhas
Member
Havok said:
Additionally, OS doesn't bring the game to a grinding halt like the deployment of a bubble shield often does.
A27 Tawpgun said:
Kinect!
Now you have to jog in place for Sprint, jump for Jet Pack, punch the ground to Armor Lock, hide behind the couch for Camo, and do a summersault for Evade!
Edit: I think the button press is fine, but as far as Reach is concerned, I'd like to see some tweaks, like shorter usage and longer cool down.
leonfaria04 said:
I really think it should all come down to this. 343 really can listen to both sides and solve the equation. It's done through ensuring better matchmaking matches placing like skilled with like skilled, and playlists.
There is something to be learned from the hardcore. The hardcore break every game down to it's nuts and bolts and will expose every weakness in map, in forced play style, in weapon imbalance, in spawns, and more. A developer is crazy to NOT listen to the hardcore for this very reason.
The hardcore competitive halo people at a minimum want:
Balanced maps
A weapon that makes everyone dangerous off spawn
Balanced spawns based on game type
Power ups and weapons appropriately that create flow and force a fight for map control
And all of that because they want skill to carry every encounter both individually and as a team.
The casual player benefits from all of the above and has a great experience when playing against others of like skill and play style. Proper matchmaking, proper playlist apportionment, and playlist content addresses much of the issue debated.
Halo CE was a game universally loved by casual and hardcore alike - at the time. For those that played it, remember the LAN parties with people of all skill ranges - and while those more casual players may not have performed well in a lobby full of hardcore players rocking a pistol, they giggled like children every time they found the thrill of three shotting someone much better than they were.
Remember having to manually place hardcore players on each team to create some semblance of balance. Remember when those better players weren't in the mix at all - the casual players had a ton of fun against each other using the same weapon many would curse when playing against the more hardcore who could "abuse" it and glitches both.
It was the same with H2, H3, and even Reach today.
Had Bungie listened to the more hardcore in the beginning of Reach, implemented match making changes, and adjusted playlist types and content - I would surmise the populations would look very different today, and would render much of this debate moot.
NullPointer
Member
Ya know, I really wouldn't want to be in 343's shoes. There is no way in hell they'll please everyone, or even a majority imo. Something has gotta give, and my guess is that the competitive types here will feel the pain.
I'm fine with that - but I find stuff like this to be pretty funny:bobs99 ... said:
See - that's where you and I simply part ways.bobs99 ... said:
You see something you don't like, and you say "that doesn't work."
I see something I don't like, and I say "I don't like that."
THOSE ARE NOT THE SAME THING.
I think I would not play a game that you built for very long - because the things that are important to you are not only not that important to me, they're the things that make me lose interest in playing.
I've seen a half-dozen or more people in the last two pages saying "build a game for the hardcore, the casuals will play regardless" - but this is wrong.
You make a game where skill is the deciding factor - where luck plays no role, where I, as a less-good player, will be outgunned 100% of the time by a better player - and I'll quit playing that game long before trueskill finds my measure and matches me up against people of my level. And I won't come back for the sequel.
THAT'S the part you guys don't get.
Yes, there are games out there that are easy to learn, hard to master - but the 'easy to learn' part can be tricky, and if you do it wrong, you lose the majority of your audience. You guys aren't giving the developers credit for what they DID do - just whacks about the heads and ears for what they DIDN'T.
::shrug::
Reach doesn't appeal to everyone who liked Halo 3. And Halo 3 didn't appeal to everyone who liked Halo 2. And Halo 2 didn't appeal to everyone who liked Halo. (The funny part, of course, is sometimes it's the same people who bitched about how game 2 broke game 1 as bitch later about how great game 2 was, and how badly fucked-up game 3 is... but that's another topic altogether.) The part that bugs me is this attitude that you know best - that you KNOW what would have worked for everyone. Because I know for a FACT that what you like wouldn't have worked for me.
bobs...onGaf
Member
Louis Wu said:
Woah hold on let me clarify:
I write this stuff down too quick for my own good, I didnt mean it the way it sounded. What im saying is that that the guys that play the game daily and take it seriously enough to post on forums and so on also have a very good idea of what would make it fun for them. The casuals seem to be happier to go along with anything. The hardcore are only happy to go along with things that they believe add value to the game.
Im not nessicarily saying that you can lump all the hardcore in the same boat and please all of them at the same time, even amongst the guys who play religiously theres a lot of difference.
I guess what im saying is, change has to be good to please any segment of the hardcore players. Man I made the mistake of rushing the last post, and I feel like a fool having to type this up so quickly, is my point clear or have I made myself look like an idiot?
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
If there's anything that I want Halo 4 to keep from Halo titles prior to Reach, it's Halo's core gameplay. That is the only thing I ask of 343i from Halo 4. If they feel like going crazy with everything else, then by all means, go for it. You want to add personal camo to each weapon? Awesome. You want to triple the amount of cR across the board and change its implementation? Cool beans. You want to change Master Chief's armor for a new aestethic feel to an iconic character? Great!
In essence, Call of Duty did this to a tee. Call of Duty 2 and Call of Duty 4 aren't so different when it comes to the core gameplay (fast, twitchy gameplay, iron sights, sprinting for everyone, fast melee combat, etc.). What changed was everything else on the side (perks, killstreaks, XP, customization, challenges) which made it feel like a whole new Call of Duty.
As a core Halo gamer since the beginning, I'm disappointed in Reach because it's stripped Halo's core gameplay. Let's be honest, would any of you care about Armor Lock, Jetpacks and Evade if there wasn't any reticle bloom, if you were natively faster, if you could jump higher, if your health automatically regenerated, if damage from every weapon and melee had the shield-to-health bleeding effect of past Halos and if grenades were weaker?
I don't know about you, but Armor Abilities in their current state wouldn't mean as much to me, if at all, if Halo's core gameplay returned for Reach. By nitpicking at Armor Abiities and other issues, you are avoiding the bigger picture.
It's like having a car with 4 flat tires and your solution to fixing it is by giving it a new paint job, a new built-in stereo, and a spoiler on the back. That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the car has 4 fucking flat tires and is immobile.
In essence, Call of Duty did this to a tee. Call of Duty 2 and Call of Duty 4 aren't so different when it comes to the core gameplay (fast, twitchy gameplay, iron sights, sprinting for everyone, fast melee combat, etc.). What changed was everything else on the side (perks, killstreaks, XP, customization, challenges) which made it feel like a whole new Call of Duty.
As a core Halo gamer since the beginning, I'm disappointed in Reach because it's stripped Halo's core gameplay. Let's be honest, would any of you care about Armor Lock, Jetpacks and Evade if there wasn't any reticle bloom, if you were natively faster, if you could jump higher, if your health automatically regenerated, if damage from every weapon and melee had the shield-to-health bleeding effect of past Halos and if grenades were weaker?
I don't know about you, but Armor Abilities in their current state wouldn't mean as much to me, if at all, if Halo's core gameplay returned for Reach. By nitpicking at Armor Abiities and other issues, you are avoiding the bigger picture.
It's like having a car with 4 flat tires and your solution to fixing it is by giving it a new paint job, a new built-in stereo, and a spoiler on the back. That's fine and dandy, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the car has 4 fucking flat tires and is immobile.
The Librarian
Banned
While you make good points on what the potential impact bubble shield has on gameplay, I'm not seeing any reasoning for what makes it a gimmick that can't be applied to overshield and invisibility. Equipment, and to a greater extent, AAs, vary the gameplay. So do overshield and invisibility. The main difference between the original two and equipment and AAs is that their effects are more limited.Havok said:
That's not reasoning at all. It's just explaining what something is and slapping "gimmick" on top of it. Overshield and invisibility can give players secondary lives, and help them when they accidentally get in a mess. Dunno what you mean by "meaningless."Striker said:
Yeah it did. Instead of using melee and grenades, people kept running around trying to dual wield weapons. And it made the individual weapons you could dual wield much weaker. It limited the gameplay.
squidhands
Member
Pretty much sums up what I was thinking. All of the defensive AA's and equipment do nothing but slow down the game to points of varying aggravation. Fingers crossed that these trends don't continue with future Halos.GhaleonEB said:
Hitmonchan107
Member
If 343 designs the multiplayer with competitive and social divisions in mind, "Halo 4" will be fine.NullPointer said:
There would be two separate design philosophies -- competitive would cater toward the hardcore (MLG, GAFers, etc.), while social would cater toward those who pick up the game after work for a few rounds.
The key to making this work: A system where you have to play a few games in each hopper before matchmaking hands you the full reigns of matchmaking. It'd be a tutorial of sorts, similar to the "Halo 3" Basic Training playlist. Which style of play do you prefer? It wouldn't cut off players from the other section, but it would give people an idea of where they would like to stay during their "Halo 4" tenure.
Keep in mind that it's not "ranked" and social. I think both divisions should have ranked playlists. You shouldn't segregate a player from the joys of rank because he/she doesn't appreciate "hardcore" game modes. The ranks would be different from each other, so people could know the difference between a high social rank and a high competitive rank.
Nailed it.Domino Theory said:
Almost... Evade and Armor Lock would still be terrible ideas. But the bleed through would help eliminate melee rushers. Jetpack would be a problem as well. But AAs break a core halo mechanic already... Halo is about everyone starting on even ground, and fighting for map, weapon and power up control.
I don't think they're necessarily gimmicks, and further, I think 'gimmick' is a lazy term that avoids explaining the problem. I do, however, think that the limitations of the standard powerups (most notably the non-deployable nature of them) helped place them in a position where they did not slow the gameplay down in the same way certain pieces of equipment did, and those same limitations helped them mesh more tightly with the existing sandbox. The equipment and armor ability idea isn't inherently bad, it just needs to be refined (a whole lot) and, in many ways, reduced to fit better with the systems that are already in place. The Regenerator requires the most drastic overhaul in this sense, but things like Bubble Shield invincibility and its long timer are issues that need to be resolved as well. Instead of treating these elements as an additional system on top of the powerups, incorporate them into the suite of powerups, retooling as the need arises.Dax01 said:
Tunavi said:
Oh yeah, I was just saying.
I actually want a games browser of some sort. If I had my way matchmaking would die with Halo Reach and they would go back to a games browser so that I could play (99% of the time) whatever the hell I end up liking in Halo 4. If I could I would have just played the Pit and Avalanche in Halo 3 and be happy with just that.
J-Roderton
Member
Hitmonchan107 said:
Basically like what Bungie did in Halo 3 with separating your Team Slayer rank with your Social Slayer rank?
Louis Wu said:
In spite of me being one of the "hardcore" - and my post above... I agree in as much as an entire game centered around a fractional subset of the population likely fails - for the very reasons you outline. It's perfect logic...
and yet in a game where a developer listens to hardcore folks, there will be things more casual players aren't even aware are a problem until matched against higher skilled folks will be fixed. There is nothing in your opinion that can't be fixed with proper matchmaking, proper playlist apportionment, and proper playlist content.
And nothing but benefit to the casual players in truly hearing and responding to the hardcore community... not to the extent that a game is created solely for the hardcore, merely to the extent that imbalance issues are fixed before they drive away a population, and to the extent that likes are truly placed with likes in game types they wish to be placed within.
At the end of the day it is ever only a problem of perspective. Your reply above didn't go far enough...
The hardcore saying "that doesn't work" says so and follows with "because":
Bloom doesn't work because it increases the connection gap more than the skill gap.
The spawn system doesn't work because of x map geometry.
That map doesn't work because it does not encourage movement and has an area that once controlled ends the game.
And so on...
The typical casual player says "I don't like that" - not because of an inability to see any of the above, but because their perspective is not as fine tuned as the hardcore. Neither are wrong in any way.
A game centered entirely around either will not be enjoyed be either party, however, a game where the developer listens to the hardcore can indeed be made better for all.
LunaticPuma
dresses business casual
Hey You said:
Yes, how people are earning their credits matters. Bungie built Reach's MP around filling a bar (much to my dismay). They paid attention to voting data and where players are playing. Some only choose what to play based on filling the bar not necessarily on a fun or fair game type thus the voting data that Bungie used to make playlist choices is skewed based on those who play to fill the bar. Those are the consequences of that choice whether intentional or not.
It's not the playlist creation that took resources, but the programming, voice over work etc to build the extra game types/methods to create game types. I was not speaking about playlist dilution. My comments were directed to refining core game play and game types.
The Librarian
Banned
Alright. Good post. Especially agreed on your first sentence.Havok said:
By the way, 343, mancannons in Halo 4 please.
RebornYeti
Member
Does anyone think it would hurt the core Halo formula if Sprint was standard?
I honestly think it could work.
I honestly think it could work.
Domino Theory
Crystal Dynamics
-Yeti said:
If there was a delay between coming out of sprint and using melee/a CQC weapon, then yeah.
edit: Actually, what Havok said.
You take the word gimmick as a negative. It's a broken solution when half of the items are mere useless or forbidden. The trip mine even had its difficulties. The only ones that worked the way they were truly intended were bubble, regen, grav lift, and power drainer. Two of those slowed down the gameplay and gave second lives to players who should have died, one had a massive radius in removing EMP, and grav lift was the only one that wasn't problematic. Then there's things like fast respawn timers, multiple amounts, etc.Dax01 said:
Overshield and camo were in neutral spots and spread out in distinct locations. If equipment were utilized this way, I would see your argument. Instead they were placed everywhere and there were no battles whoever who got what, or earned it. That alone makes them different than the original powerups and why they're inferior in design for gameplay purposes.
How does the AR work in comparison to dual wielding? You see more people clamoring for BR/DMR starts because the starting weapon (AR) is such a poor one against superior weapons.
It was something that worked. The SMG/PR worked great in close quarters and didn't make a person feel handicapped or helpless against a BR user. They served their purpose, and that's why I liked it.
Did you play Halo 1 or Halo 2? We weren't turtles then. The base speeds should NOT be muddy.
Base speed should be high enough that it's not necessary, but if it has to be slow, then yeah, that's a solution.-Yeti said:
edit:
Not saying I disagree with you, because it's a great point, but CoD2 had no sprint and was played at a fraction of the pace, normally from very long range. The Call of Duty games post-4 are a great example of this philosophy, though.Domino Theory said:
I agree with this almost entirely. And the "almost" part has to do with how the armor abilities are implemented.Domino Theory said:
But outside of that - yup. And it's what I was getting at earlier by saying we need a solid foundation from which to build from - the foundation we had in the first four Halo games.
I remember posting on the first day of the friends and family/media access to the Reach Beta. My first response was, "this does not feel like a Halo game". It still doesn't, in may ways, and that has nothing to do with armor abilities. It's all the stuff you just listed.
I like it in Reach because it's only when sprinting that I feel agile. But I think it has a detrimental effect on Firefight and Campaign, and I'd prefer the base traits be set so that we're agile but not fast, especially for MP, as in the past. So no, I'd rather not have it.-Yeti said:
NullPointer
Member
I love sprint because whatever the base speed of the game sometimes you just want to have that extra burst of speed, that little extra oomph. Games without it just feel like they're missing something.
Rickenslacker
Banned
I remember during the time Halo originally came out people were playing Counter-Strike and Quake 3. It was seen as floaty, slow-paced casual game by said groups. So it seems kind of funny when I read discussions about quantifying the hardcore and casual within the Halo community. I've been playing FPS games since '96 or so, I started with Goldeneye and Quake so I guess I never really cared about the differences, my brain didn't really register about it on that level. What I spent most of my time with was Quake Team Fortress and playing goofy modes like Hunted and Border Patrol interspersed with some good ol' fashioned CTF.
My own interests in playing FPS games in multiplayer were always casually oriented, I don't really get into the competition of it and I like getting my mindless fill of shooting dudes up. I liked Halo because of its pace, because everything felt right, because of the vehicle implementation, and I loved the grenades. A lot of small presentational aspects of the game drew me in, the way dirt kicked up after an explosion, the way the sparks would fly as bullets hit, the sound of the AR, the persistence of the decals (and not that Halo 3/Reach crap where they disappear in seconds), vapour trails in the sniper shots, blah blah blah. However, I find that despite my own casual playstyle I actually prefer games that are more competitively sound in their design. I liked the great equalizer that was the pistol, and I hate most of the changes to the core game mechanics since CE like making vehicles destructible, dual wielding, AAs, bloom and equipment. I do like vehicle jacking though!
I guess I could rant on and on about those things, but ultimately I'd like a game that plays like a refinement of what Halo once was, and not something that needs to clutter itself with half-baked inclusions that allow for a longer list of features and implementations but less overall focus and fun for what I liked in Halo.
My own interests in playing FPS games in multiplayer were always casually oriented, I don't really get into the competition of it and I like getting my mindless fill of shooting dudes up. I liked Halo because of its pace, because everything felt right, because of the vehicle implementation, and I loved the grenades. A lot of small presentational aspects of the game drew me in, the way dirt kicked up after an explosion, the way the sparks would fly as bullets hit, the sound of the AR, the persistence of the decals (and not that Halo 3/Reach crap where they disappear in seconds), vapour trails in the sniper shots, blah blah blah. However, I find that despite my own casual playstyle I actually prefer games that are more competitively sound in their design. I liked the great equalizer that was the pistol, and I hate most of the changes to the core game mechanics since CE like making vehicles destructible, dual wielding, AAs, bloom and equipment. I do like vehicle jacking though!
I guess I could rant on and on about those things, but ultimately I'd like a game that plays like a refinement of what Halo once was, and not something that needs to clutter itself with half-baked inclusions that allow for a longer list of features and implementations but less overall focus and fun for what I liked in Halo.
thezerofire
Banned
I'm not going to lie, Walshy knows his way around a map. Watching him call an MLG Oddball match on Heretic was something else.Letters said: