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[Oozer3993]

Coming from the guy who has played a total of 1100 games, yeah of course they would be ok to you.


See answer above.. Play more halo and then you can see how "rare" it is.

Vehicles would be fine if they actually had weak points to them. Tell me how does a warthog survive from being stuck with a plasma. It should blow the fuck up.

oh you are no BDF, but you are overlooking other flaws of the game that clearly show you have not played the game much at all. [case in point you havent]

Congrats. You just made Juices seem rational.

Anytime you have to scavange for weapons to make another weapon useful it's obvious there are problems with the system. In Halo 3, there's an area in the highway level where you can trigger waves of Brutes without killing the previous waves. It spawns regular brutes, chieftain brutes, brutes with jetpacks and those big guns that shoot green shit, and a wraith. This happened to me on legendary and there wasn't enough ammo or weapons with long range capability in that area so I had to go back and forth from there through the highway to pick up BR and sniper ammo from the previous area in the level. That wasn't even enough. I had to also hijack a Brute chopper and drive it over the highway so that I could use its guns and also boost by the wraith and trigger the next checkpoint. That's bullshit. It was difficult to get the Brute chopper over there too since the fucking highway was broken and shit and I had to boost off some piece of the fucking highway on the side to land my chopper over a gap.

That problem lies with you, not with the game. If you're unwilling to get your hands dirty and fight up close, then that's your fault. The tripod of Halo is grenades-melee-weapons, not BR-sniper-carbine. Do some sneaking and whack some one in the back, or stick somebody.

 

[Thagomizer]

Anytime you have to scavange for weapons to make another weapon useful it's obvious there are problems with the system. In Halo 3, there's an area in the highway level where you can trigger waves of Brutes without killing the previous waves. It spawns regular brutes, chieftain brutes, brutes with jetpacks and those big guns that shoot green shit, and a wraith. This happened to me on legendary and there wasn't enough ammo or weapons with long range capability in that area so I had to go back and forth from there through the highway to pick up BR and sniper ammo from the previous area in the level. That wasn't even enough. I had to also hijack a Brute chopper and drive it over the highway so that I could use its guns and also boost by the wraith and trigger the next checkpoint. That's bullshit. It was difficult to get the Brute chopper over there too since the fucking highway was broken and shit and I had to boost off some piece of the fucking highway on the side to land my chopper over a gap.

That encounter was deigned that way. You are supposed to have to scramble for weapons. It's what makes it one of the best encounters in the game; you aren't supposed to be able to just sit in a safe spot and shoot everything until there's nothing left.

 

[dslgunstar]

Anytime you have to scavange for weapons to make another weapon useful it's obvious there are problems with the system. In Halo 3, there's an area in the highway level where you can trigger waves of Brutes without killing the previous waves. It spawns regular brutes, chieftain brutes, brutes with jetpacks and those big guns that shoot green shit, and a wraith. This happened to me on legendary and there wasn't enough ammo or weapons with long range capability in that area so I had to go back and forth from there through the highway to pick up BR and sniper ammo from the previous area in the level. That wasn't even enough. I had to also hijack a Brute chopper and drive it over the highway so that I could use its guns and also boost by the wraith and trigger the next checkpoint. That's bullshit. It was difficult to get the Brute chopper over there too since the fucking highway was broken and shit and I had to boost off some piece of the fucking highway on the side to land my chopper over a gap.

I think that's more of an issue with campaign set-piece design and layout than weapon balance. Since the weapon balance works for the majority of the game and works flawlessly in multiplayer. I dont think I had the same problems as you did on legendary, although I definitely remember being frustrated at that part. Never ran back a long way to scoop up better weapons though.

 

[EazyB]

Here's where I stand after reading the article.

Great:

• Focus on natural environments and ambient life.
• "... darker tone overall... not going for that desaturated modern war movie vibe."
• More huge battles
• Lighting looks great. Is it fully realtime though? Will my forge maps have proper lighting?
• Return of the hitscan!

Good:

• New LOD and "imposter" system.
• Campaign starts at the beginning of the invasion. The possibility of an amazing covie reveal scenario.
• DMR. Sounds like a cool guy. On a related note, it sounds exactly like the CE pistol, so the magnum in reach must be different in some way - I hope it won't be a shitty throw away weapon like it is in Halo 3.
• Seems like they added a little more depth to the melee combat. Still hope they don't force use to use predominately CQC weapons and incredibly high rates of melee like in Halo 3.
• Stealth. Although using the camo ability, running, and hiding until it recharges sounds boring as hell. Hopefully that's not a viable way of getting through such levels on legendary.
• LWG customization. Hopefully they'll go all out with it in MP (visual permutaion, performance ones I'm not to sure of).
• No elites in MP. Frees up the elite models to be huge and badass once more.
• Customized character carries over multiple game modes.
• Grades and credits, depending on what they are exactly, could really add some more replayability to the campaign/co-op.

Concerned:

• Is the DMR a replacement for the BR? Is so, why,? If not, ignore the following: Halo has always lacked a healthy variety of mid-range weapons thus causing simpler people to complain that some weapons get used to often. Halo 3's mid-range palette consisted of the BR and the carbine. There's no need to take out the BR when Reach (so far) has only the carbine (assumed), DMR, and the needle rifle. Which lead to my next concern.
• The needle rifle. I really hope it has no homing abilities whatsoever. The range of the homing Halo 3 needlers is bad enough as it is. 3 shots to detonate? Those better be 3 headshots to detonate or 6 regular shots or this thing better have an incredibly slow rate of fire. In what way is the gun a "headshot" weapon?
• Armor abilities. "There was a problem with equipment in earlier games. You would pick a piece up, you really wouldn't understand what it was, and then you'd use it and waste it." Totally! I have the same problems with grenades, I pick it up, and then being the dumbass I am, I'd use it and waste it. Give me regenerating grenades please. I realize there are reasons beyond these, but that quote just came off as dumb as the whole "Not enough disc space for the BR" thing. Anyways, I really don't know what I'd think of this sort of thing if it were implemented the same way in MP. "Used as often as grenades"? :/
• "Improved radar". Although I prefer having no radar, I can stomach Halo 3's because there's still some ambiguity to it. Now with height reporting it's become a super radar that'll reduce the need for real environmental awareness and team communication. Sure it may be off for a handful of gametypes but most playlists will include this super radar if Halo 3 is any indication. What's next, just putting waypoints over everyone's head?
• Increasing the co-op teleport distance. I'd put this in the good/great section but knowing Bungie there'll be enough invisible walls to negate any exploration that would've been worthwhile.

Bad:

• Skirmishers don't sound like a worthwhile replacement for brutes. Why aren't brutes included as well as the weapons and vehicles they used? Spike grenades are confirmed to be gone and we'd lose the spikers, hammers, and bobsleds - who cares (but they could've been improved to add to the sandbox). We'd lose the brute shot and the brute chopper though which were both served fantastic roles in the sandbox. Their swiftness could make them fun to headshot though. There's no way they'll look good but they could be fun to fight.
• Seems like they're still trying to force the AR down our throats. Hopefully it'll have a tighter spread, much slower fire rate, and headshot give the play an actual advantage in order to evolve it past spray, pray, beatdown. It depends on how the MP is set up but I don't want to have to spawn with a fully-auto sprayer. I also don't want to be aiming the DRM and landing headshot only to have someone outgun me at midrange because they were spraying madly with the AR.
• Return of VISR. They're overhauling the lighting system of the game only to thrown in a vision mode that outlines everything with hard edges and masks the dark atmosphere. Encountering an elite in a dark room by passing a flashlight past them was the epitome of fear. Didn't like it all that much in ODST but I especially don't want it in Reach.

Fucking thing sucks:

• Return of the health bar/packs. "Encourage exploration?" More like annoy the shit out of players who'd rather just keep having fun instead of wander around first. If you want to encourage exploration, how about getting rid of all those damn invisible walls. When I was exporing shit in CE it was because I knew if I tried hard enough I could get somewhere unexpected and potentially awesome, not so much because I wanted to stop that annoying beep noise. I hope to god that shit doesn't make it over to MP. I like that they're extending the time it takes for shields to recharge though.
• Seriously, there better be choppers in this fucking game. There will be hell to pay if I can drive some lame as truck around but not the chopper. Vehicle combat without the chopper in the sandbox is boring as hell.
• The assassination mechanic. Is the spectacular animation really necessary. Is it going to be like assassin's creed where all the enemies stop shooting at me so I can complete this animation in peace or will I just get mowed down as my character finishes this elaborate animation? Context sensitive combat sucks. The moment I fail to complete start the animation because the AI switched from unaware to aware without my knowledge I'll hate it forever. They're really putting this shit in MP? "allows the player to shit-talk their opponent?" Give me a break.

 

[TheOddOne]

"people like you" is the kinda stuff that makes us refer to your set as "those people" as well, so cut that shit out. I said I liked the idea of certain stuff in the article and hope to see it bear fruit. Sorry if the end result will be "I cant fucking believe they short changed us again", but there we are, don't write cheques and all that.

A Halo thread can be more than 'faces on things' and can be a discussion about the games. I loved the great big open skirmish levels from Halo 3 such as The Covenant, I hated the empty copy and pasted city of ODST. There are parts about Halo games I enjoy, there are those that I hate, and I converse about them. If there really is a need for 2 Halo threads on GAF, one completely positive the other an avenue for trolling and balanced discussion, then thats a sad state of affairs that should reflect upon you poorly.

Sorry, but your post still not disregards my point. Your still gonna nitpick about every little thing, if they fix that you'll prolly nitpick about the change. There is a diffrence between trolling and having a discussion. Trolling is finding every little thing wrong, having a discussion is looking at the pros and cons and further discussing it. There are enough people in this thread that have had intresting discussions. I would advise you to look at the intresting discussions being held in this thread and then look at whats your posting.

 

[EazyB]

This is why I have to wonder what all the kids who whine about the laser are talking about. Vehicles are unstoppable without laser control. Hell you can stick a hog and it will keep going.

• Laser

These weapons are balanced. It's the rest of the sandbox that needs tweaking.

Give me a break. It requires absolutely no skill to take down a vehicle with the laser and the vehicles have absolutely no chance of defending against a lone man wielding the laser. Not only that but the laser is such a power weapon that if one team controls it and the vehicle combat is reliant on the laser, then the other team has no chance of getting a vehicle up while the laser team's vehicle can go uncontested.

I believe it was shake that suggested this, but the laser would be perfect if once you pulled the trigger to start charging it, there was no coming back. It would require a lot more skill and in addition result in hilarious misuses. Of course players would have to work pretty hard for their vehicle sniper kills and the casuals could become frustrated by this. I have little faith that Bungie will change anything about the laser in Reach given that I've never heard any of them express concerns about it's function in Halo 3.

With the exception of the banshee, hornet and tank. All the other vehicles can be easily taken out with a combo of:
Frags
Stickies
Rockets
Missile Pod
Brute Shot (please still be in Reach)
Plasma Pistol
Turrets
And most importantly: Other vehicles (provided the other team doesn't have laser and can destroy any and all of that team's vehicles)

The laser ruins games on Valhalla and Avalanche. Relying on a single vehicle annihilator will never work. Up the respawns on the missile pods and brute shots if vehicles aren't challenged enough, but the laser doesn't work at all.

 

[Kibbles]

Someone going to leak Halo: Reach footage? Main Menu. Looks like the one Tom Morello posted. Unless this person re-created the artwork... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUtJMbP1Cio

[edit] lol the controler isn't even on.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

I just saw blurry as hell scans and I got to say this thing looks excellent.
The characters all look really different and Bungie's excellent art design is in full effect. This is going to be the Bungie game I have been waiting for I can feel it.

 

[Oozer3993]

Someone going to leak Halo: Reach footage? Main Menu. Looks like the one Tom Morello posted. Unless this person re-created the artwork... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUtJMbP1Cio

Every main menu for every Halo game has featured the background moving. This doesn't. If it was real, why not show gameplay to prove it?

 

[gibonez]

Loving the details on how they plan on improving the game. I'm not loving what I see graphically though, only a small improvement IMO. Hopefully the finished product improves on the scans.

 

[Striker]

Haven't read every person's comments or opinion regarding the material, yet, but it seems they're pushing this more closer to a Halo: CE model than Halo 3 - and that, in my belief, is the best way to go.

The armor "perk" system sounds interesting, and hope more is uncovered soon.

 

[Kibbles]

Every main menu for every Halo game has featured the background moving. This doesn't. If it was real, why not show gameplay to prove it?

The sky is moving. The menu always changes during development though too.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Someone going to leak Halo: Reach footage? Main Menu. Looks like the one Tom Morello posted. Unless this person re-created the artwork... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUtJMbP1Cio

Fakey McFakerton.

 

[feel]

Funny seeing Easy pissed off at so many things that made me happy to know they're on Halo Reach.

Every main menu for every Halo game has featured the background moving. This doesn't. If it was real, why not show gameplay to prove it?

Exactly my thoughts. Seemed easy to fake too.

 

[Oozer3993]

The sky is moving. The menu always changes during development though too.

You sure? It looked more like video artifacting to me than movement.

 

[dslgunstar]

Is frequency of meleeing really considered a problem in Halo 3? I always considered the power, efficacy and satisfaction of melees to be one of the things that set Halo apart. Instead of close-quarters fire-fights devolving into laughable circle-strafing merry-go-rounds, you had a quick and devistating way to end a battle provided you timed it properly.

It's not overpowered or anything IMO, you need to earn your way into close range to use it, either by sneaking up on someone or battling your way up to them. And unlike COD, it's not an instant-kill maneuver, so if you go for it too early, wade through gunfire and the guy on the other end is still standing, you're a dead man. I love the Halo melee as it stands.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

Exactly my thoughts. Seemed easy to fake too.

You don't show gameplay in order to tease the people that can't play it. :lol Could be fake but also could be real...who knows

 

[Kibbles]

You sure? It looked more like video artifacting to me than movement.

If you look at the position of the clouds and look later in the video that section of clouds has moved to the left.

Exactly my thoughts. Seemed easy to fake too.

I guess if he re-created the art...

Although, it looks like the controller is off. :lol

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

If you look at the position of the clouds and look later in the video that section of clouds has moved to the left.

I guess if he re-created the art...

Although, it looks like the controller is off. :lol

:lol controller does look like its off.

 

[clashfan]

Now that the GI info has been release are we going to get a vidoc about the teaser?

 

[The Librarian]

Fucking thing sucks:

• Return of the health bar/packs. "Encourage exploration?" More like annoy the shit out of players who'd rather just keep having fun instead of wander around first. If you want to encourage exploration, how about getting rid of all those damn invisible walls. When I was exporing shit in CE it was because I knew if I tried hard enough I could get somewhere unexpected and potentially awesome, not so much because I wanted to stop that annoying beep noise. I hope to god that shit doesn't make it over to MP.

Health bar mechanic helps force the player think about how to approach a certain situation and do the maximum damage while losing the minimum amount of health. This isn't possible with the regenerative health system Bungie has in place. Honestly, if it's handled like it was in Halo 1 and unlike ODST (no annoying beep, the screen doesn't stay red), then there's absolutely nothing wrong with this system.

On some of the rest - you need to chill out on a couple of 'em.

Is frequency of meleeing really considered a problem in Halo 3? I always considered the power, efficacy and satisfaction of melees to be one of the things that set Halo apart.

No, it's just a couple of HaloGAF's BR aficionados and their usual rants.

 

[godhandiscen]

Here's where I stand after reading the article.

Great:

• Focus on natural environments and ambient life.
• "... darker tone overall... not going for that desaturated modern war movie vibe."
• More huge battles
• Lighting looks great. Is it fully realtime though? Will my forge maps have proper lighting?

Good:

• New LOD and "imposter" system.
• Campaign starts at the beginning of the invasion.
• DMR. Sounds like a cool guy. On a related note, it sounds exactly like the CE pistol, so the magnum in reach must be different in some way - I hope it won't be a shitty throw away weapon like it is in Halo 3.
• Seems like they added a little more depth to the melee combat. Still hope they don't force use to use predominately CQC weapons and incredibly high rates of melee like in Halo 3.
• Stealth. Although using the camo ability, running, and hiding until it recharges sounds boring as hell. Hopefully that's not a viable way of getting through such levels on legendary.
• LWG customization. Hopefully they'll go all out with it in MP (visual permutaion, performance ones I'm not to sure of).

Concerned:

• Is the DMR a replacement for the BR? Is so, why,? If not, ignore the following: Halo has always lacked a healthy variety of mid-range weapons thus causing simpler people to complain that some weapons get used to often. Halo 3's mid-range palette consisted of the BR and the carbine. There's no need to take out the BR when Reach (so far) has only the carbine (assumed), DMR, and the needle rifle. Which lead to my next concern.
• The needle rifle. I really hope it has no homing abilities whatsoever. The range of the homing Halo 3 needlers is bad enough as it is. 3 shots to detonate? Those better be 3 headshots to detonate or 6 regular shots or this thing better have an incredibly slow rate of fire. In what way is the gun a "headshot" weapon?
• Armor abilities. "There was a problem with equipment in earlier games. You would pick a piece up, you really wouldn't understand what it was, and then you'd use it and waste it." Totally! I have the same problems with grenades, I pick it up, and then being the dumbass I am, I'd use it and waste it. Give me regenerating grenades please. I realize there are reasons beyond these, but that quote just came off as dumb as the whole "Not enough disc space for the BR" thing. Anyways, I really don't know what I'd think of this sort of thing if it were implemented the same way in MP.

Bad:

• Skirmishers don't sound like a worthwhile replacement for brutes. Why aren't brutes included as well as the weapons and vehicles they used? Spike grenades are confirmed to be gone and we'd lose the spikers, hammers, and bobsleds - who cares (but they could've been improved to add to the sandbox). We'd lose the brute shot and the brute chopper though which were both served fantastic roles in the sandbox.
• Seems like they're still trying to force the AR down our throats. Hopefully it'll have a tighter spread, much slower fire rate, and headshot give the play an actual advantage in order to evolve it past spray, pray, beatdown. It depends on how the MP is set up but I don't want to have to spawn with a fully-auto sprayer. I also don't want to be aiming the DRM and landing headshot only to have someone outgun me because they were spraying madly with the AR.
• The assassination mechanic. Is the spectacular animation really necessary. Is it going to be like assassin's creed where all the enemies stop shooting at me so I can complete this animation in peace or will I just get mowed down as my character finishes this elaborate animation? Context sensitive combat sucks. The moment I fail to complete start the animation because the AI switched from unaware to aware without my knowledge I'll hate it forever.

Fucking thing sucks:

• Return of the health bar/packs. "Encourage exploration?" More like annoy the shit out of players who'd rather just keep having fun instead of wander around first. If you want to encourage exploration, how about getting rid of all those damn invisible walls. When I was exporing shit in CE it was because I knew if I tried hard enough I could get somewhere unexpected and potentially awesome, not so much because I wanted to stop that annoying beep noise. I hope to god that shit doesn't make it over to MP.
• Seriously, there better be choppers in this fucking game. There will be hell to pay if I can drive some lame as truck around but not the chopper. Vehicle combat without the chopper in the sandbox is boring as hell.

Well, shit... when you put it that way this "reveal" was indeed incredibly dissapointed. However, I trust Bungie to come through. You cannot infer gameplay from words.

Someone going to leak Halo: Reach footage? Main Menu. Looks like the one Tom Morello posted. Unless this person re-created the artwork... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUtJMbP1Cio

[edit] lol the controler isn't even on.

The music and loading screens are really well done. It is the best fake I have ever seen.

 

[dslgunstar]

Health bar mechanic helps force the player think about how to approach a certain situation and do the maximum damage while losing the minimum amount of health. This isn't possible with the regenerative health system Bungie has in place. Honestly, if it's handled like it was in Halo 1 and unlike ODST (no annoying beep, the screen doesn't stay red), then there's absolutely nothing wrong with this system.

I prefer the flexibility afforded by the recharging shields-only model. The great thing about the combat and AI in Halo is that its dynamic enough to let you experiment and react to the combat, instead of forcing you to complete each exchange in a particular 'right way'. Under the health bar system, there's a clear 'right way' - the way that keeps the most of your health.

Under the new shields-only system, ANY way that you live through is the right way, and any attempts or ideas that arent panning out can be escaped with some cover and a few seconds to recharge, without any long-term consequences that make future battles more difficult or less fun (save ammo usage). It still requires skill to survive, and it still requires skill to adapt the AI reactions and attack maneuvers/positions (slightly different every time).

 

[kylej]

I believe it was shake that suggested this, but the laser would be perfect if once you pulled the trigger to start charging it, there was no coming back. It would require a lot more skill and in addition result in hilarious misuses. Of course players would have to work pretty hard for their vehicle sniper kills and the casuals could become frustrated by this. I have little faith that Bungie will change anything about the laser in Reach given that I've never heard any of them express concerns about it's function in Halo 3.

Then limit the hog to 100 bullets and the banshee to 15 seconds of total ammo time, the chopper to 10 seconds of boost and the scorpion to 4 shells. It would require more skill and be better balanced.

 

[Magni]

Dont mind the move toward Halo: CE style campaign scenarios or damage modelling (although I prefer the shields-only method a la Halo 2 or 3), but the idea of moving towards that game's weapon balance is depressing. The AR was useless, the pistol was an overpowered finger of god, and every weapon outside of the shotty, sniper and RL were 'niche' weapons that were only useful as backup weapons to the pistol under specific circumstances.

The weapon balance in Halo 3 is perfect. You have to lead BR shots at anything over mid-range, its fire-rate is slow enough to make it risky in close, and its still worthwhile at distance to knock snipers out of zoom mode. Versatile but not over-powered, unlike the CE pistol.

The AR is great, powerful enough kill effectively at close range AND close-mid range if you use grenades and melee-finishers effectively, but weak enough at long range to keep it from being too versatile. Fantastic starting weapon, because you have to fight for the upgrade (BR), but its still worth keeping around as a secondary (unless you really want that close-range dominance with the shotgun).

The needler actually works.


Dual-wielding is an effective close to close-mid attack, but useless beyond that with a long reload liability. Doesnt dominate the gameplay like in Halo 2, which devolved into spray-and-pray far too easily.

Pistols are appropriately useless without a second weapon dealing damage. No handheld fingers of god here.

The Laser and RL are fantastic anti-vehicle weapons and wastes of ammo on infantry (you can use'em, but you'll wish you hadnt the next time vehicles respawn).

The turret weapons work perfectly.

The sniper-rifle and shotgun were perfect in CE, havent really changed at all since (save auto-aim in Halo 2 ruining the sniper rifle).

Anyway, you get the jist. A move away from Halo 3 weapon balance would be a move backwards.

:lol :lol :lol
Thanks for bolding that yourself, you saved me the time I'd have wasted reading your post.

 

[godhandiscen]

looks like it's missing AA in the shots

I am looking at the high res scans. It is impossible to tell if there is any AA since the images have dowscaled. Once you resize them they will show obvious jaggies which are inevitable. I will wait for the beta to judge.

:lol :lol :lol
Thanks for bolding that yourself, you saved me the time I'd have wasted reading your post.

It might not be perfect, but certainly the best out there.

TF2 with the crazy Pyro and MW2 with the guys who run around carrying a knife are certainly a laughingstock in comparison.

 

[dslgunstar]

:lol :lol :lol
Thanks for bolding that yourself, you saved me the time I'd have wasted reading your post.

Well what would you change? Any move back towards the broken balance of Halo: CE is a shift backwards and moves forward require creativity and problem solving instead of simply whining.

 

[Magni]

Health bar mechanic helps force the player think about how to approach a certain situation and do the maximum damage while losing the minimum amount of health. This isn't possible with the regenerative health system Bungie has in place. Honestly, if it's handled like it was in Halo 1 and unlike ODST (no annoying beep, the screen doesn't stay red), then there's absolutely nothing wrong with this system.

I agree with you on one thing!

On some of the rest - you need to chill out on a couple of 'em.


No, it's just a couple of HaloGAF's BR aficionados and their usual rants.

Well, not on two. In H3 MP, a player has 70 Shield HP and 45 Health HP. A melee does 70 damage. IMO H3 MP would have been better off with 45 damage. Still enough to kill a shieldless opponent, but not OPed.

I hope the emphasis in Reach MP is more on precision and less on spray n' pray plus lunge melee.

fake edit: Oh, another thing concerning melee; in H1 and H2, melee damages varied if you were standing still, running, or jumping, and varied from weapon to weapon as well IIRC. In H3 it's always 70 damage. The only improvement I saw from Halo 2 to Halo 3 concerning melee was the randomness of the lunge being toned down. Instead of every other lunge being random like it was in H3, it's only one out of every ten times that I see guys lunge across rooms.

 

[EazyB]

Is frequency of meleeing really considered a problem in Halo 3? I always considered the power, efficacy and satisfaction of melees to be one of the things that set Halo apart. Instead of close-quarters fire-fights devolving into laughable circle-strafing merry-go-rounds, you had a quick and devistating way to end a battle provided you timed it properly.

It's not overpowered or anything IMO, you need to earn your way into close range to use it, either by sneaking up on someone or battling your way up to them. And unlike COD, it's not an instant-kill maneuver, so if you go for it too early, wade through gunfire and the guy on the other end is still standing, you're a dead man. I love the Halo melee as it stands.

Halo 3's beatdown frequency is way out of wack. If the melee combat was even half as deep as the gunplay I'd forgive the game for devolving into elbow-fests but it isn't. It deals way too much damage (all shields in a single hit, and an automatic kill in two), the lunge is to far, and it isn't even a matter of timing in the Halo 3 system. It doesn't matter when you time it because the simultaneous beatdown mechanic in place post-patch means even if you melee much later, it'll result in both of you dying or in the very least you'll take down all of their shields leaving them very susceptible for a quick death.

Halo's gunplay is far and away the best out there. While the movement speed could be quickened, the maneuverability each players have, the grenade mechanics, along with the shield and health mechanic make for really engaging fire fights. Rarely does it devolve into "circle strafing" but due to the melee system it does often devolve into spray a few bullets, run at one another and simultaneously beat each other down. And due to Halo 3's skew to CQC weapons and maps with short lines of sight, players don't have to earn their way up close. Even with nothing but mid-range weapons like the BR fights often go close quarters (just watch some MLG matches) and when you start players with a full-auto gun like the AR, the majority of firefights end up in CQC. In CoD4 most guns kill the other play in a single burst so it is much harder to get in close and when you do you've done more to deserve a powerful melee attack.

It seems like they're adding a little more depth to the melee with Reach. Hopefully the new system looks something like this:
Hold melee then release for a Halo 3 level melee (e.i. a fairly large lunge, hit to the back is instant death, one hit depletes shields, two charged melees or maybe even one charged and one normal melee kills).
Tapping melee does the following: CE level range/lung, two (or one from behind) for no shield and a bit of health damage, three for a kill, two from behind to kill.

Even then, I'd like a more CE/2 mid-range focus than 3's CQC beatdownfest.

Health bar mechanic helps force the player think about how to approach a certain situation and do the maximum damage while losing the minimum amount of health. This isn't possible with the regenerative health system Bungie has in place. Honestly, if it's handled like it was in Halo 1 and unlike ODST (no annoying beep, the screen doesn't stay red), then there's absolutely nothing wrong with this system.

While some of what you say is true. It also slows the gameplay down and makes gamers play even more conservatively then they already do in Halo 3. It encourages camping health pack respawns, or more accurately, it discourages venturing very far away from them. It also encourages players to remove themselves from the front-lines and return to base to pick up health packs instead of pushing offensively or do so to limit deaths in deathmatch gametypes. To be clear, I'm talking about implimenting the health pack system in MP. I don't mind having them in the campaign though I'd still rather they not use them. I wasn't a big fan of CE's heart beat noise either, hopefully if there's any sound/visual effect for low health we'll have the option to turn that off. Who knows, maybe it'll get me to do some exploring. From one invisible wall all the way to another. :lol

 

[The Librarian]

I prefer the flexibility afforded by the recharging shields-only model. The great thing about the combat and AI in Halo is that its dynamic enough to let you experiment and react to the combat, instead of forcing you to complete each exchange in a particular 'right way'. Under the health bar system, there's a clear 'right way' - the way that keeps the most of your health.

Just because there's a "right way" doesn't mean that's the only way, or even the only right way. Hell, there could be several ways to approach a certain encounter and achieve the same result - doing the maximum amount of damage whilst losing the smallest amount of health. Hell, you'd have to force to experiment in order to figure out how many ways to best approach a situation.

There was nothing forcing you in Halo 1 to complete a certain fight in a certain way.

Under the new shields-only system, ANY way that you live through is the right way, and any attempts or ideas that arent panning out can be escaped with some cover and a few seconds to recharge, without any long-term consequences that make future battles more difficult or less fun (save ammo usage). It still requires skill to survive, and it still requires skill to adapt the AI reactions and attack maneuvers/positions (slightly different every time).

Good point, but the same can be said for the health bar system. If you're losing too much health, or don't have that much health, you fall back and reevaluate your approach to a certain situation.

Well, not on two. In H3 MP, a player has 70 Shield HP and 45 Health HP. A melee does 70 damage. IMO H3 MP would have been better off with 45 damage. Still enough to kill a shieldless opponent, but not OPed.

I hope the emphasis in Reach MP is more on precision and less on spray n' pray plus lunge melee.

I was just talking about in general. I have a hard time believe that the majority of Halo 3 fans (not limiting this to just fans on a videogame forum) have a problem with the melee.

 

[Metroidvania]

Good point, but the same can be said for the health bar system. If you're losing too much health, or don't have that much health, you fall back and reevaluate your approach to a certain situation.

Hypothetically, then, what if this happens more than once? What if you run out of healthpacks, say, playing on legendary?

You are then limited to all encounters by that lowered maximum remaining health, or restarting at an earlier checkpoint.

 

[Major Williams]

If they had just showed the menu, maybe.

The loading screen - the logo was wayy to big, and the Bungie folks are a little more creative with loading screens than that frankly.

Fake.

 

[dslgunstar]

Hmmmm...good arguement. I guess it would be a good idea for them to tone the damage of the melee down so that you arent helpless even if you come out on top of a melee exchange. The 'both die' scenario you're talking about isnt too familiar to me though...it always feels like I die from melees because I was too slow, not because the game just randomly decided 'too close to call, this guy wins'. And I definitely dont feel like I die as a result of melees more than

As for people relying on automatic weapons a lot more, I dont see that at all. I played TDM for a long time in the game's first year, then moved on almost exclusively to ranked team objective modes and social big team, but it definitely feels like people fight for the BR as soon as possible and only use AR at spawn (if they spawn with it). It doesnt seem like four BR shots to the chest/face take so long that you cant put down an AR-user before they get to you, because the AR isnt even that effective until you're right on top of the guy. So even if you're getting peppered from a medium or med-close distance, the damage being dealt isnt significant enough to cause concern.

It just seems like the way the AR was designed with such a shallow clip, you need to either weaken an enemy with a grenade before you start shooting, or finish them off with a melee. Its almost impossible to put someone down with ONLY AR fire in my admittedly moderate experience.

Feel free to educate me though, Im always up for learning more about a game

 

[Blueblur1]

Everything sounds good but I'm surprised Reach is sounding too much like the usual Bungie Halo game. It's a shame that it may be another 3 months before we get a Beta date.

 

[NullPointer]

Whether the health pack mechanic will work or not depends entirely on how you get more health. Are you limited to a number of health packs scattered across the map? If so, prepare for backtracking and overcautious gameplay. Can a co-op partner heal you? Can your armor heal you with a cooldown? Are you going to get stuck with one of those checkpoints that have you at a sliver of health just before entering an area with a gazillion foes?

Whatever way it works I hope we've heard the last of the ODST health beep.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Bad:

• Skirmishers don't sound like a worthwhile replacement for brutes. Why aren't brutes included as well as the weapons and vehicles they used? Spike grenades are confirmed to be gone and we'd lose the spikers, hammers, and bobsleds - who cares (but they could've been improved to add to the sandbox). We'd lose the brute shot and the brute chopper though which were both served fantastic roles in the sandbox.

• 
  They're not a replacement for Brutes, that's the Elites. Given how overhauled Brutes were from Halo 2 to Halo 3, I suspect Elites will cover a wide range of tactics given their different classes, and this new enemy will slot in along side them. I'm going to hold off on lambasting the overall enemy sandbox until I see how all the toys fit together. FWIW, I will miss Brute pack encounters.
  
  As for the Brute sandbox, I think it's a good thing that Bungie is paring things down from Halo 3 to make room for the new stuff. I said before that I hope we get some very new vehicle action, because it's hard to improve on Halo 3's. The easy way to do that is by introducing new vehicles. So we lost the bobsled and chopper, but we probably gained a couple new Elite-based vehicles. So the chopper is gone, but I suspect something will fill that void in the sandbox. Or rather, something had better.
  
  

  [*]Seems like they're still trying to force the AR down our throats.

  The article reveals TWO new single-fire headshot capable weaopns - something you've been lobbying for - and you're still railing against the AR?
  
  

  [*]The assassination mechanic. Is the spectacular animation really necessary. Is it going to be like assassin's creed where all the enemies stop shooting at me so I can complete this animation in peace or will I just get mowed down as my character finishes this elaborate animation? Context sensitive combat sucks. The moment I fail to complete start the animation because the AI switched from unaware to aware without my knowledge I'll hate it forever.

  Rather nervous about this, myself.
  
  

  Fucking thing sucks:
  
  Return of the health bar/packs. "Encourage exploration?" More like annoy the shit out of players who'd rather just keep having fun instead of wander around first. If you want to encourage exploration, how about getting rid of all those damn invisible walls. When I was exporing shit in CE it was because I knew if I tried hard enough I could get somewhere unexpected and potentially awesome, not so much because I wanted to stop that annoying beep noise. I hope to god that shit doesn't make it over to MP.

  I'd agree if I ever had that problem in Halo CE. It was an issue with ODST more due to the goddamn beeping health. But in Halo it was nice to have, but not frustrating. At least, that was my experience.
  
  I'd still rather not have health packs, though.

 

[gibonez]

Man Brutes better make it in this game. I'll be really disappointed if they arent in Reach.

Give me the uber huge, savage, hulking almost werewolf type of brute seen in some of the concept art and in the ODST live action trailer.

 

[Thermite]

Return of the health bar/packs. "Encourage exploration?" More like annoy the shit out of players who'd rather just keep having fun instead of wander around first. If you want to encourage exploration, how about getting rid of all those damn invisible walls. When I was exporing shit in CE it was because I knew if I tried hard enough I could get somewhere unexpected and potentially awesome, not so much because I wanted to stop that annoying beep noise. I hope to god that shit doesn't make it over to MP.

Seriously. The last thing anyone wants to do while playing multiplayer is go searching for a fucking health pack. What if someone got to it before you? How often are they going to respawn? Not to mention, even if you happen to survive, with your shields recharged, you're going to have to put up with either an extremely annoying beeping noise like in ODST or your screen constantly flashing red until you find a health pack (assuming it'll have an indication mechanic letting you know your health is low). :/

It's going to make going in multiplayer alone a whole lot worse, that's for sure. Unless multiplayer does turn out to be class based and there happens to be a Medic Class that can spawn health packs at will for teammates, then I suppose it wouldn't be as bad.

 

[big ander]

I'm just plain excited. I don't feel like debating whether or not Reach's gameplay is good until I've gotten my hands on it with the beta.
That is all

 

[NullPointer]

Man Brutes better make it in this game. I'll be really disappointed if they arent in Reach.

Give me the uber huge, savage, hulking almost werewolf type of brute seen in some of the concept art and in the ODST live action trailer.

Or these. (a Brute scene from Arms Race)

 

[Captain Blood]

Seriously. The last thing anyone wants to do while playing multiplayer is go searching for a fucking health pack. What if someone got to it before you? How often are they going to respawn? Not to mention, even if you happen to survive, with your shields recharged, you're going to have to put up with either an extremely annoying beeping noise like in ODST or your screen constantly flashing red until you find a health pack (assuming it'll have an indication mechanic letting you know your health is low). :/

It's going to make going in multiplayer alone a whole lot worse, that's for sure. Unless multiplayer does turn out to be class based and there happens to be a Medic Class that can spawn health packs at will for teammates, then I suppose it wouldn't be as bad.

There is no way the health bar will be in the MP that would be very very lame.

 

[Striker]

To those worried or upset about the health bar, how much of Halo: CE's multiplayer did you play? In the LAN's I've participated in, I didn't find it very bad at all, especially considering the lack of weapon balance, limited maps, and so on.

The health packs make me think, however, about fall damage. I would certainly welcome that back as if would force players tot think twice about a route and not be damaged by jumping off a 50-foot fall.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

Seriously. The last thing anyone wants to do while playing multiplayer is go searching for a fucking health pack. What if someone got to it before you? How often are they going to respawn? Not to mention, even if you happen to survive, with your shields recharged, you're going to have to put up with either an extremely annoying beeping noise like in ODST or your screen constantly flashing red until you find a health pack (assuming it'll have an indication mechanic letting you know your health is low). :/

It's going to make going in multiplayer alone a whole lot worse, that's for sure. Unless multiplayer does turn out to be class based and there happens to be a Medic Class that can spawn health packs at will for teammates, then I suppose it wouldn't be as bad.

Just a thought but if this MP is Class based and there is a Medic Class, I always thought of it as being "Tech" Class. Take too much damage your shield will no longer recharge, possible flickering or visual malfunctioning of your HUD until either you die or a Medic/Tech gets to you and can repair your armor. I think that would be pretty bad ass, although it would drasticly change play.

 

[Magni]

Well what would you change? Any move back towards the broken balance of Halo: CE is a shift backwards and moves forward require creativity and problem solving instead of simply whining.

Halo 3's MP is skewed towards close-range fights. Some of that is due to poor design decisions, some of that to poor coding.

Here are my thoughts on H3 weapon balance (keep in mind I primarily play 4v4, so you BTBers might have some stuff to add).

● Plasma Pistol

The plasma pistol became OPed in H2 with the noob combo. In H3 this was corrected, and the PP now works well on LAN in its overcharge mode. On Live its really random, but that's Live. The battery emptying itself was a good design choice. However the main fire mode is underpowered. The freezing effect from H1 should be brought back.

Underpowered

● Plasma Rifle

Once again, the freezing aspect should be brought back. This weapon used to be headshot capable in H1, why did this disappear. It's now a much more spray 'n pray weapon.

Underpowered

● Needler

On LAN, it's balanced, on Live, it's random, but once again, that's Live.

Balanced

● Spiker

WTF is this shit?

WTF is this shit?

● SMG

I hated this weapon in H2, but Bungie fixed it up pretty well for H3. I still don't understand why we spawn with an AR instead of with an SMG in Team BRs.

Balanced

● Magnum

It fits its role as a headshot-capable weapon for AR starts.

Balanced

● Mauler

Now that they aren't all over my place, they fit in IMO. Hearing "Mauler on my X" by a rushing noob never gets old (until he costs you the game).

Balanced

● Shotgun

Perfect fix from the Halo 2 Slotgun.

Balanced

● Energy Sword

The sword was a bit OPed in H2, it's been nerfed in H3. The battery was a good choice, but the time it took to activate was a bit too long in H3. Something between the H2 and H3 times would have been better. Sword games on Live are a pain in the ass (reason why I haven't played Lone Wolves in years, literally).

Underpowered

● Gravity Hammer

A pain on Live, but Grifball's fun.

Good for Grifball

● Assault Rifle

Halo 2 was spawn with SMG, pick up second SMG, spray and pray, rinse repeat.
Halo 3 has been spawn with AR, spray and pray, melee, rinse, repeat. Six shots + melee = kill. It gives easy kills, doesn't require much skill, and is over abundant (every "standard" Halo game has you spawn with them).

I'd have it replace the SMG and pick up its role from H1.

Overpowered

● Battle Rifle

H3's Battle Rifle is no longer a hitscan weapon. Fine by me, that requires more skill to use. But H3's poor hit detection coupled with a tad too much spread have nerfed it. Add in the slower bursts..

Underpowered

● Carbine

The H3Beta Carbine was a bit OPed, so Bungie totally nerfed it. Something between the two (closer to the Beta's) would have been better.

Underpowered

● Sniper Rifle

More time between shots, more skill required to use, this was another great fix by Bungie H2 -> H3. A shame the poor hit detection ruins the fun very often online, and even on LAN (see Cloud's sniping on the Pit in MLG Orlando's WBR3 game for example).

Balanced

● Beam Rifle

The Beam Rifle complemented pretty well the Sniper. Not much to say on this one.

Balanced

● Bruteshot

Nothing to say.

Balanced

● Rocket Launcher

Nothing to say as well.

Balanced

● Spartan Laser

I don't play much vehicle games, but I agree with EasyB on this topic.

Overpowered

● Melee

In H3 MP, a player has 70 Shield HP and 45 Health HP. A melee does 70 damage. IMO H3 MP would have been better off with 45 damage. Still enough to kill a shieldless opponent, but not OPed.

I hope the emphasis in Reach MP is more on precision and less on spray n' pray plus lunge melee.

fake edit: Oh, another thing concerning melee; in H1 and H2, melee damages varied if you were standing still, running, or jumping, and varied from weapon to weapon as well IIRC. In H3 it's always 70 damage. The only improvement I saw from Halo 2 to Halo 3 concerning melee was the randomness of the lunge being toned down. Instead of every other lunge being random like it was in H3, it's only one out of every ten times that I see guys lunge across rooms.

Overpowered

--------------------------------------------

I never said H3 weapon balance was horrible, just that it was far from perfect. IMO H1 retains the best balance of the three games, but H3 was a step above H2 overall.

What kept H3 MP from being truly astounding for me was map design, which was far from H2's quality, playlist management, which for the most part sucked (since Shishka's taken the job, things have greatly improved, but there's still so much to do and some decisions still make me go WTF?), and netcode/hit-detection problems.

Also,

Spoiler

Damn your avatar! :lol

 

[The Librarian]

Seriously. The last thing anyone wants to do while playing multiplayer is go searching for a fucking health pack. What if someone got to it before you? How often are they going to respawn? Not to mention, even if you happen to survive, with your shields recharged, you're going to have to put up with either an extremely annoying beeping noise like in ODST or your screen constantly flashing red until you find a health pack (assuming it'll have an indication mechanic letting you know your health is low). :/

It's going to make going in multiplayer alone a whole lot worse, that's for sure. Unless multiplayer does turn out to be class based and there happens to be a Medic Class that can spawn health packs at will for teammates, then I suppose it wouldn't be as bad.

Can't say anything about the beeping noise, though.

And, honestly, why would expect it would be that bad for MP? What's the way it was done in Halo 1?

 

[kylej]

Just a thought but if this MP is Class based and there is a Medic Class

 

[Thermite]

There is no way the health bar will be in the MP that would be very very lame.

Hope not, but if they're in Campaign, Bungle is probably experimenting with the idea.

To those worried or upset about the health bar, how much of Halo: CE's multiplayer did you play? In the LAN's I've participated in, I didn't find it very bad at all, especially considering the lack of weapon balance, limited maps, and so on.

The health packs make me think, however, about fall damage. I would certainly welcome that back as if would force players tot think twice about a route and not be damaged by jumping off a 50-foot fall.

Nowhere near as much as I played Halo 2 and 3, but enough to know that just having to worry about your shield is far superior to worrying about your shield and whether or not a health pack will be available when you get to the spot they spawn. If they're not there, you have to camp until they respawn...it's just a very tedious process to me.

Just a thought but if this MP is Class based and there is a Medic Class, I always thought of it as being "Tech" Class. Take too much damage your shield will no longer recharge, possible flickering or visual malfunctioning of your HUD until either you die or a Medic/Tech gets to you and can repair your armor. I think that would be pretty bad ass, although it would drasticly change play.

That would definitely be interesting. Maybe for a Medic/Tech class, your main objective would obviously be to heal your teammates, but if you were around (like say, within a couple feet of someone) and he/she didn't need health at that particular moment, you'd give a slightly faster recharge rate on shields. Not so fast that it complete unbalances gameplay, but just enough to help give that edge against your opponent.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

There is no telling if it is Class based, or if it is that Bungie will stick to what the average player considers Classes (medic, solider, sniper, scout...ect). I personally believe by reading the GI article and the talk of Armor Abilities it could just be different Armor Classes allowing different abilities...so not Classes in the normal sense.

 

[Not a Jellyfish]

That would definitely be interesting. Maybe for a Medic/Tech class, your main objective would obviously be to heal your teammates, but if you were around (like say, within a couple feet of someone) and he/she didn't need health at that particular moment, you'd give a slightly faster recharge rate on shields. Not so fast that it complete unbalances gameplay, but just enough to help give that edge against your opponent.

I think that would be a very interesting component, could see people popping out to charge a lazer against a vehicle have a Medic/Tech class by a nearby rock to give them a boost in order to not be taken down so quicly by the vehicles fire. Also see interesting shielding for players who have acquired the flag or other objectives (flying V formation with flag carrier behind :lol ).

 

[electricpirate]

To those worried or upset about the health bar, how much of Halo: CE's multiplayer did you play? In the LAN's I've participated in, I didn't find it very bad at all, especially considering the lack of weapon balance, limited maps, and so on.

The health packs make me think, however, about fall damage. I would certainly welcome that back as if would force players tot think twice about a route and not be damaged by jumping off a 50-foot fall.

My Mind, you are reading it!

Just for the record, I prefer recharging health, but it worked well in ODST (sans beeping) and CE.