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Harry Reid to Bernie Sanders: 'math is math' 'sometimes you just have to give up'
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Ditto
LilWayneSuckz
Member
This scenario would just split the democratic votes and guarantee a republican presidential win.
Crimson_Fate
Member
Bernie has a good chance to win pledged delegates. That is a good enough reason to fight on.
Super delegates can sway with the wind .
Super delegates can sway with the wind .
User 463088
Banned
He does not have a good chance to win pledged delegates. And, so far, the only super delegates that have switched were from Bernie to Hillary.
hammysaurusrex
Member
And she was criticized heavily for it.
A huge portion of Hillary's supporters this time around are previous Obama supporters, not Hillary. We've seen her in both positions now. We know she was a sore loser, which is why we so easily recognize Bernie as somehow managing to be an even sorer loser this time around.
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Anyway, the entire "flip the superdelegates" is an embarrassing childish fantasy for both Bernie and his supporters. It reveals one of their fundamental misunderstandings about Hillary:
There are people in the United States who voted for Hillary Clinton over Bernie Sanders, not because they are "low information voters", but because we sincerely think she is the better candidate for a large variety of reason. We exist.
The idea that he's going to flip the superdelegates against both a voter and delegate plurality only works in this stupid fucking vacuum people have constructed where only Bernie has enthusiasm and no other politician is allowed a political agenda that can provide challenge. Hillary's supporters will push back and not allow this garbage to take place.
I think most Hillary supporters have been understanding of the perspective as to why someone would be dissatisfied with Hillary and support Bernie (at least I am); in contrast, it feels like Bernie supporters have been incapable this entire election of simply taking Hillary supporters at their word that they want Hillary more, which has fueled this ridiculous journey into theoretical delegate quantum mechanics, the accusation that every election is fraud, and the general conspiratorial approach that anyone not for them is a paid agent.
If Bernie actually accomplished the flip like he thinks he's going to, it will be the greatest disenfranchisement of the black vote since Jim Crow. If that's the "progressivism" we're being sold, I'm perfectly happy slamming the door in its face.
Edit: Beaten by a day by Nate Silver, who says how I feel far more concisely.
Dash_Riprock
Member
#Bernieorbust
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Too early, made dumb mistake.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
What's the point in Bernie just giving up?
A few reasons:
- His bargaining position is going to take a hit on Tuesday
- Him holding the party captive is preventing the party from focusing on Hillary Vs. Trump.
- The longer he stays obstinate, the harder it's going to be to support her as the nominee (IF this even happens at this point... It's not his party so I have no idea why he would) when he does finally bow out.
Anoregon
The flight plan I just filed with the agency list me, my men, Dr. Pavel here. But only one of you!
Unifying the Democrat bloc as early as possible to focus 100% on trump.
This. People are underestimating Trump. Every passing day that Democrats are divided is another good day for Republicans. Plus the economy isn't looking so rosy either. Time is of the essence. This isn't 2008 where the Republican brand was so damaged because of Bush that Democrats could drag out their primary and not really have to worry about the consequences.
Codex Gigas
Banned
Winning is important to people and Clinton inspires confidence.
Smug Clinton supporters are obnoxious but Berniebros that regurgitate Republican recriminations towards Clinton without realizing they're shooting themselves in the foot are giving them a run for their money. Or maybe not - shooting themselves in the foot implies they have any stake in this election other than backing this cycle's Ron Paul. They come out every 4 years and then disappear into thin air when they're needed to vote for anything other than POTUS.
DOWN
Banned
He absolutely does not
Sadly, I think your last post is 100% accurate.
Knowing some personally, they care only about 'destroying the system' (whatever the fuck that means), and have no interest in engaging in any other part of the political process. Which is precisely why I find it so odd that the party is giving in to any of his demands at all.
old manatee
Banned
I'll never forget when that bird landed on Bernie's hand and everyone felt it in their hand, too. Sanders was more than a candidate. He was a conduit.
metalslimer
Member
It's funny because the demographics that got Obama the win are the same ones going for Hilary. You'll find that many of the Clinton supporters here were previous Obama supporters
Already Torn
Banned
I ask you Harry Reid, what true revolution ever started on doing math problems? Exactly.
#StillSanders
#StillSanders
And yet if you ask a member of the DNC, they'd tell you that it's mathematically impossible for a bird to land on his desk out of the billions of possible places to land. And yet, it happened.
old manatee
Banned
I heard Sanders speak and it was like a firm breeze, like a steady unyielding force pressed up against me. You wouldn't believe me if I told you.
Team Alucard
Banned
Then you can say hello to a Sanders/Stein Green party ticket and a guaranteed GE loss. Because that's what will happen if they try and wheel Biden in as an emergency option over the guy who got 45% of the vote.
excelsiorlef
Member
On what planet?
Would make it easier on Hillary.
Already Torn
Banned
Presumably one in which he hasn't already berned down all his bridges.
A Biden/Warren ticket would probably be enough to unite the party. Though I'm not sure why we're even talking about this random hypothetical.
The level of denial, even at this late hour, is remarkable.
Omegasquash
Member
They're compromising, and they're doing so in an attempt to make sure that they keep as many Bernie supporters as they can for the GE.
Team Alucard
Banned
Sanders stealing just 5% of the vote away from Biden would be enough to hand the election to Trump.
If you don't think he can manage that with his popularity and the fundraising prowess he has shown, then I don't know what to tell you.
The only question is whether or not he would do it. And in the event that they blocked him from the nomination in favor of a guy who did not win a single delegate, I would say there is a significant chance. His response to questions regarding a 3rd party run has changed dramatically from where it was months ago, when he clearly and firmly rejected the possibility.
He had an interview with TYT the other day about if he would support a third party candidate who more closely aligned with his views over Clinton, and he basically avoided the question entirely and just went into a spiel about being the longest running independent congressman in history.
Similarly, He was asked a week ago if he'd run with the Greens, and he gave another vague, non-answer.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
He can only make her better at this point.
- There's 50 politic years before the election. Bernie staying in another few weeks doesn't hurt anything.
- If Trump is so bad, people shouldn't allow their love for Bernie to stop them from voting out Trump.
Well then.....obviously Trump isn't as bad as people say he is if he can't unify the Democrat bloc.
A Link to the Past
Banned
Medusa Heads aren't even that bad. They're tricky, but the falcons aim for you. If you can nail down the Medusa Head patterns, they're so much easier to deal with (the room before Death for instance is one of the simplest rooms for me, assuming I can carry a Holy Water there which I almost always do).
I don't agree. Bernie pushed her fairly left, but hasn't done much in recent months to that effect.
hammysaurusrex
Member
I used to buy into the "he's just pushing her more left guys", but I don't really buy it anymore. She was already as left as him on a lot, and many of his beliefs (anti-GMO, anti-nuclear, protectionism and isolationism, etc.) don't even really fall on the left-right spectrum - they're just popular beliefs without an ideological rationale (or a even a scientific/evidence-based reason).
Sanders supporters didn't want her more left, they wanted her to just unequivocally adopt Bernie's platform. That's fine, but I wish they'd just come out and say it.
Sanders supporters didn't want her more left, they wanted her to just unequivocally adopt Bernie's platform. That's fine, but I wish they'd just come out and say it.
Fried Food
Banned
What kind of message would that send to the youth?
You mean like how Hillary had a speech specifically to attack Trump's positions and all Bernie could do was attack Hillary?
eh
depends on where that vote comes from
5% of the vote isn't 5% of the electoral college vote, especially since all but two states have winner-take-all distribution of electors
if he's pulling most of this 5% support from the more liberal states anyway, it won't matter at all
A Link to the Past
Banned
That giving up is a valid option, and you shouldn't feel bad if you are made to
The Elite
BOSS
If you're going to use a "math is math" argument you technically have to accept that possibility.
And I am all for Hillary winning.
A significant portion of liberals voted Nader instead of Gore in 2000. If only a portion didnt there would no recount. No Bush. No Iraq War.
Did that mean Bush wasn't as bad as people say?
BlastProcessing
Member
The thing about Sanders argument that doesn't make sense is the aftermath. Let's say he is able to flip enough Superdelegates to win, even though he has constantly insulted them as establishment sellouts, let's say that he somehow convinces them.
It would represent a staggering disenfranchisement of Black voters, especially in the South. How does Sanders possibly heal that rift? Clinton will have won more pledged delegates and will be leading in total vote by 3 to 5 million voters. How could the party possibly unify after that? It would be one of the biggest repudiations of democracy in the last 100 years. And the best argument that Sanders can put forward is that he performs better in polls about an hypothetical matchup 6 months away. What do you think those polls will look like after he subverts the will of well over half of his party?
The reason that Clinton started with a Superdelegate lead is because she started with an endorsement lead. Should party leaders not be allowed to endorse the candidate they prefer when they choose to do so? Even if you removed the superdelegate system, history shows that Endorsements are one of the primary factors in influencing voters. Clinton's advantage would still be there.
Sanders' and his supporters stance on superdelegates is a great example of the larger issues of his campaign. Magical thinking mixed with a total inability to actually listen to differing opinions.
Team Alucard
Banned
And what about states like Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Ohio, New Hampshire, and Pennsylvania where he either won or got over 40% of the vote? All those states would be in play for Trump if Sanders went third party.
Already Torn
Banned
The same message they learned from Season 2 of Kimmy Schmidt.
Better than the message they're currently getting (that they also got from the current season of Game of Thrones), "Bern them all".
old manatee
Banned
I wonder what could have changed to make white people shift away from Clinton this time.....
shadowsdarknes
Member
Personally, I don't care if he drops out or not. What I do care is whether or not he's going to bring about party unity. He's already helped to cultivate and assemble conspiracy theorists and ideological purists. He's assured other Dems in the senate that he will bring party unity. But it doesn't particularly seem like he's started pivoting to do that.
Nah. People are just sick of the "burn it all down" politics and peddling of right wing talking points against Hillary.
The anti-establishment fervor has clouded rational thinking to the point where many Bernie supporters would rather see Trump elected.
When you break it down issue by issue, Hillary is substantially better than Trump on progressive issues.
-Climate Change/Environment
-Women's issues
-Taxes
-Wall Street
-Minimum Wage
-Institutional Racism/Criminal Justice
-LGBT Issues
-Immigration
etc.
Nah. People are just sick of the "burn it all down" politics and peddling of right wing talking points against Hillary.
The anti-establishment fervor has clouded rational thinking to the point where many Bernie supporters would rather see Trump elected.
When you break it down issue by issue, Hillary is substantially better than Trump on progressive issues.
-Climate Change/Environment
-Women's issues
-Taxes
-Wall Street
-Minimum Wage
-Institutional Racism/Criminal Justice
-LGBT Issues
-Immigration
etc.
Stumpokapow
listen to the mad man
Huh? Protectionism is absolutely a political policy of the left globally; virtually every protectionist policy post turn of the 20th century has been justified by protecting domestic jobs in labour-friendly industries from unfair capitalism. (that there's a billionaire nativist who is similarly pursuing protectionism as justified by "Brown People Are Bad, So Let's Put The Screws To Them" doesn't change protectionism's connection to labour activists). In America, the face of protectionism is manufacturing in Michigan, also ground zero for American labour. Dove foreign policy is also hallmark of the left, since at least Vietnam--Who's the most relatively progressive presidential candidate of all time? George McGovern, who ran on peace. Bernie's foreign policy has never been grounded in isolationism, but rather in peace (isolationism in explicit terms has largely been the provenance of classical liberals on the right like Ron Paul). And yes, in America's case, anti-nuclear has been associated with the left for 50+ years, since Silent Spring pivoted American environmentalism from hunting-fishing conservationism a-la T.R. to the traditional tree-hugging image--it wasn't the John Birch Society repelling off the golden gate bridge to protest nuclear submarines, it was Greenpeace.
Far from Bernie supporters "not wanting Clinton to move to the left, just wanting her to be Bernie", you're doing the opposite--you want to be able to claim the mantle of being left, but carve off the unsavoury policies you disagree with. What you are describing as the left is the post-third way center-right Clinton/Blair/Chretien left. It's OK to admit you're not a leftist, or that you're a moderate leftist, or that you share concern about income inequality but hate the cultural elements of the left, or whatever else. You don't need to redefine the label just to exclude Bernie because you think he's a quack. I can't tell if your misread here is being driven by Trump's heterodoxy or just total disbelief that the left could look anything different than it did in the 90s, at its furthest right.
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