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HBO Boss Regrets Announcement of ‘Confederate,’ but Not its Concept

SheSaidNo

Member
I mean McGruder actually had some talent behind his show from jump.

Confederate copped the lead writer of Empire, and McGruder made Black Jesus. No contest

He's also the showrunner for Amazons TV adaption of Marlon James's A Brief History of Seven Killings.

Seven Killings begins with the attempted assassination of reggae icon Bob Marley and explores its aftermath, looking at one vital day in multiple time periods. The novel looked at Jamaican politics, poverty, race, class and the volatile relationship between the U.S. and the Caribbean, and traced the connection between CIA efforts to destabilize a left-wing Jamaican government in the 1970s to the brutal realities of gang wars in the Kingston ghettos and their spread to New York in the 1980s.

Melina Matsoukas, chief director of the HBO series Insecure, is tackling an adaptation of the award-winning Marlon James novel A Brief History of Seven Killings for Amazon Studios.

Matsoukas is developing the project as a series and will executive produce as well as direct the episodes. Teaming with her is James, who will write the script as well as executive produce, while Malcolm Spellman, a writer and co-executive producer on Empire, will be the showrunner and exec produce as well.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/ne...er-prize-winning-novel-amazon-studios-1042835
 

Blader

Member
If you had a "what if the Nazis won" story pitched about Germany, a lot of Germans would not be happy.

The US doesn't have a history of 1940s Nazis running the country. It does have a history of slavery. Hence, the difference.

Sure, but the US does have a history of Americans being killed by Nazis and Jewish-Americans either fleeing the Nazis or their parents/grandparents/families fleeing or killed by the Nazis. That's why Nazis are such easy punching bags in this country -- we all agree they were evil and did a lot of harm to us or people we know.
 
I mean its basically a spin on the "what if the Nazi's won WW2" plot that gets used a lot. No one accuses Bethesda of glorying the Nazi's in Wallenstein or in every sci fi TV show that has used it every now and again during the last 30 years.

With this I think it is just not the right time for it. People are simply not in the mood

Germany actually made efforts to make amends for Nazism... America made amends to white southerners for taking away their free labour.
 
I don't have a problem with the show conceptually, however the timing of it is rather poor given the political climate in the States and how emboldened white supremacists are now that the White House is filled with them.

A couple years earlier of a couple years from now and there really wouldn't be the timing issue, but even then there are issues with how tiring the genre is and the completely and utter lack of trust the show runners have garnered considering how white Game of Thrones has been and the troubling themes around Danny's exploits.

Ultimately I just don't see what purpose this show would serve.
 
I already know that this show will be filled with rape against black women and it makes me sick. Let's see them defend it without the "this is what it was like back then" excuse to fall back on.
 

DonShula

Member
The creators of the show have already shown themselves. It being D&D who is making this show has a LOT to do with why this is getting backlash.

Their work on GOT is a pretty good gauge and look who they hired to run and write the show.

They are producing a product for consumers, consumers are allowed to talk about a product until they seen it?

I mean, is it even remotely possible those two learned something from their past experiences? I don’t know, honestly. And that’s why I’d like to see the thing before I jump too far down HBO’s throat over it.
 
Obviously no one can directly prevent them.

I’m simply waiting to see the fucking thing before I judge it. Unlike the majority of GAF going by the past few threads on the subject.

In principle I object to shouting the thing down before it even really exists.

They put something out into the universe a concept and a creative team... criticism is fair game.
 

Slayven

Member
I mean, is it even remotely possible those two learned something from their past experiences? I don't know, honestly. And that's why I'd like to see the thing before I jump too far down HBO's throat over it.

Voicing opinion = Jumping down their throats?

They are a billion dollar multinational media company. Not our fault if their messaging sucks or they don't want to counter criticism
 

Gigglepoo

Member
Yup, they took away the anti-war message of GoT and replaced it with the glorification of violence. Trusting them would probably be a mistake

It's almost worse than that. A Song of Ice and Fire is clearly anti-war whereas Game of Thrones mixes in anti-war moments with glorifications of violence. Like when Tyrion was looking at the wreckage of The Loot Train battle last year -- that's the kind of stuff that's in A Feast of Crows. But it doesn't last. One scene has characters mourning violence, the next they're reveling in it. That mixed messaging is even more damaging. It's a "both sides are fine" or "we'll let you decide" stance that lets the creators wash their hands even though they're still covered in blood.

Benioff should go back to writing novels. His writing has gone in the toilet since the move to television.

I mean its basically a spin on the "what if the Nazi's won WW2" plot that gets used a lot. No one accuses Bethesda of glorying the Nazi's in Wallenstein or in every sci fi TV show that has used it every now and again during the last 30 years.

With this I think it is just not the right time for it. People are simply not in the mood

Germany punished the Nazis for war crimes and disavowed everything Hitler stood for. America erected monuments of Confederate generals, elected some to Government positions, and there's still anti-black laws and norms. So, yeah, it's nothing like "What if the Nazis won WW2".
 

Jeels

Member
The day this show is up, I'm dropping HBO. I'll miss John Oliver but by then veep will likely be over as will game of thrones and maybe Insecure.
 
HBO: "Watch our new show with slavery in it!"
Black people: "You should probably not do that. This is a bad idea and harmful to us as a race of people."
HBO: "Please understand."
 
I can not stop laughing, like that is the best they could get?

I have been told by people within HBO that Benioff, Weiss, Nichelle and Malcolm Spellman pitched the show together and have "equal say" on the show.

But if one half of the creative team is responsible for the single most successful property in HBO's history, and the other half is not, how can you say they're equal? If there is a creative disagreement between the four of them, who's side do you think HBO is going to take? They're fundamentally not equal.

And I've since heard a little more of the concept, and I have even less confidence in the concept than I did originally.

Also, if the idea is that the North and South fought to a stalemate, yet the South got to keep slavery until modern times, then they didn't fight to a stalemate. The South fucking won.
 

Principate

Saint Titanfall
HBO: "Watch our new show with slavery in it!"
Black people: "You should probably not do that. This is a bad idea and harmful to us as a race of people."
HBO: "Please understand."

No it should "I hope you will accept this". That's much more insulting.
 

Platy

Member
But if one half of the creative team is responsible for the single most successful property in HBO's history, and the other half is not, how can you say they're equal? If there is a creative disagreement between the four of them, who's side do you think HBO is going to take? They're fundamentally not equal.

United but unequal
 
I dont trust the Game of Thrones writers with racial issues at all. They enjoy violent, pornographic material too much and it's my firm belief they would put out the equivalent of Goodbye Uncle Tom if they believed they could get away with it.
Frankly, Im still annoyed with the Orientalist way non-White people and cultures were depicted in some of those Game of Thrones episodes. I still have flashbacks to the scenes where they made sure to have the darkest of Black people playing slavers or slaves and hundreds of brown people bowing down in fealty and worship to an Aryan White queen.

Game_Of_Thrones04042014_08.jpg
 

Enzom21

Member
Sure, but the US does have a history of Americans being killed by Nazis and Jewish-Americans either fleeing the Nazis or their parents/grandparents/families fleeing or killed by the Nazis. That's why Nazis are such easy punching bags in this country -- we all agree they were evil and did a lot of harm to us or people we know.
You really see no difference between how things were handled after the confederacy lost vs when the nazis lost?
 
This is like the real-world version of trying to get out of a Twitter argument by saying "Twitter is not a good place for real discussion."

It's not about how many words or characters it takes to express your idea. Your idea is just bad.
 
It will have high ratings just to show you how many white people want this show. I wouldn't be surprised if it tops Game of Thrones ratings.
I highly, highly doubt it. GoT's monumental ratings aside, this show doesn't seem like it's trying to be a mass-appeal, demographic-crossing hit. HBO believes in this as their answer to 'political' TV, a show that pushes buttons and gets people talking across the spectrum. It's Emmy bait, just very poorly considered Emmy bait.

Then again, Crash won an Oscar. So who knows, maybe this works for them.
 

Joe T.

Member
HBO: "Watch our new show with slavery in it!"
Black people: "You should probably not do that. This is a bad idea and harmful to us as a race of people."
HBO: "Please understand."

It's only harmful if it's handled poorly, which I will grant you is a likely scenario given the issue at hand, but if handled with care a popular TV show where the racial divide is front and center can help improve the current state of affairs in the US, even if only marginally, especially if it manages to attract an audience that would otherwise avoid the issue altogether. If racists tune into the show expecting to see a world more in line with their beliefs and then get exposed to characters dealing with racism from the other side they might actually gain a little insight and maybe even start to open up to the idea of equality somewhere down the line.

Here's hoping the show doesn't ever rival Game of Thrones' "bad pussy" scene.
 

Nafai1123

Banned
I'd feel (slightly) more optimistic if it was being created by David Simon. GoT creators give me zero confidence it will be anything but a shit show.
 

Blader

Member
You're using Man in the High Castle as a comparison, are you not?
So do you see why the two are completely different or no?

My point was that I don't see why Confederate gets raked over the coals and something like Man in the High Castle doesn't when both shows effectively empower their respective villains from history. I am not saying Confederate doesn't deserve criticism, I am saying why doesn't Man in the High Castle or similar historical fiction stories about Nazis winning the war get more flak, particularly now when we have Neo Nazis making themselves louder and bolder than ever before?

A lot of the Confederate criticism seems to boil down to three different but overlapping points: that D&D are bad writers, that D&D are racists, and that D&D, even with the best of intentions, may accidentally (or perhaps intentionally, since they are allegedly racist) create slaveholder characters that are sympathetic or likable in some way that emboldens real life white supremacists. I disagree with the first two points, and think the third is certainly possible, but don't see why it's any more potentially problematic here than in any other piece of historical fiction that creates potentially likable, charismatic main characters out of historical villains.
 
I have been told by people within HBO that Benioff, Weiss, Nichelle and Malcolm Spellman pitched the show together and have "equal say" on the show.

But if one half of the creative team is responsible for the single most successful property in HBO's history, and the other half is not, how can you say they're equal? If there is a creative disagreement between the four of them, who's side do you think HBO is going to take? They're fundamentally not equal.

And I've since heard a little more of the concept, and I have even less confidence in the concept than I did originally.

Also, if the idea is that the North and South fought to a stalemate, yet the South got to keep slavery until modern times, then they didn't fight to a stalemate. The South fucking won.

This was always a D&D baby... as part of their announcement they talked having come up with it years ago as a movie idea.... The idea that the others are equal on this is baloney.
 

norm9

Member
My point was that I don't see why Confederate gets raked over the coals and something like Man in the High Castle doesn't when both shows effectively empower their respective villains from history. I am not saying Confederate doesn't deserve criticism, I am saying why doesn't Man in the High Castle or similar historical fiction stories about Nazis winning the war get more flak, particularly now when we have Neo Nazis making themselves louder and bolder than ever before?

A lot of the Confederate criticism seems to boil down to three different but overlapping points: that D&D are bad writers, that D&D are racists, and that D&D, even with the best of intentions, may accidentally (or perhaps intentionally, since they are allegedly racist) create slaveholder characters that are sympathetic or likable in some way that emboldens real life white supremacists. I disagree with the first two points, and think the third is certainly possible, but don't see why it's any more potentially problematic here than in any other piece of historical fiction that creates potentially likable, charismatic main characters out of historical villains.

One difference is Nazis got defeated, so it's fine to do a what if on that.

America has never addressed its own slavery and racism issue since "winning" the war. It's insulting that it is entertainment fodder.
 

PixelatedBookake

Junior Member
It's probably been said a bajillion times by now, but I don't think the concept is a good idea due to the situations still going on in America PLUS the GoT writers who are infamous for how they portray violence and rape in their show. Maybe....I dunno...read the room a bit guys?
 

Blader

Member
One difference is Nazis got defeated, so it's fine to do a what if on that.

America has never addressed its own slavery and racism issue since "winning" the war. It's insulting that it is entertainment fodder.

Not that racism isn't still an enormous, and even understated, problem today, but the idea that America has *never addressed* slavery and racism is so absurd I don't even know where to start.

The Nazis were defeated, and yet Neo Nazis and anti-Semites continue to not only exist but peddle their influence in growing numbers. We just saw hundreds of them chanting JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US in the open last month! The Nazis may have lost, but Nazism and its ideological underpinnings are still alive and well.
 

Takuan

Member
Glad it's going on and will reserve commentary 'til I see it. It's an ugly topic regardless of the current political climate, but I'm still curious to see the end product.
 

Slayven

Member
Not that racism isn't still an enormous, and even understated, problem today, but the idea that America has *never addressed* slavery and racism is so absurd I don't even know where to start.

The Nazis were defeated, and yet Neo Nazis and anti-Semites continue to not only exist but peddle their influence in growing numbers. We just saw hundreds of them chanting JEWS WILL NOT REPLACE US in the open last month! The Nazis may have lost, but Nazism and its ideological underpinnings are still alive and well.

How has it ?
 

Enzom21

Member
My point was that I don't see why Confederate gets raked over the coals and something like Man in the High Castle doesn't when both shows effectively empower their respective villains from history. I am not saying Confederate doesn't deserve criticism, I am saying why doesn't Man in the High Castle or similar historical fiction stories about Nazis winning the war get more flak, particularly now when we have Neo Nazis making themselves louder and bolder than ever before?

A lot of the Confederate criticism seems to boil down to three different but overlapping points: that D&D are bad writers, that D&D are racists, and that D&D, even with the best of intentions, may accidentally (or perhaps intentionally, since they are allegedly racist) create slaveholder characters that are sympathetic or likable in some way that emboldens real life white supremacists. I disagree with the first two points, and think the third is certainly possible, but don't see why it's any more potentially problematic here than in any other piece of historical fiction that creates potentially likable, charismatic main characters out of historical villains.

Okay so you don't actually see why a show about Nazis and a show about the confederacy are not comparable?
Was the Confederacy punished like the Nazis were?
Are there any statues celebrating Nazis?
Are there still people that proudly fly a Nazi flag in Germany?
Are there Nazi flags on government buildings?

There were consequences and closer with what the Nazis did, there was none of that with the Confederacy. The two are not comparable.
 

Chairman Yang

if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
The novel "City of Thieves" convinced me that Benioff, at least, is capable of great writing. I'm glad this series is going forward and I hope it doesn't fulfill the fears of those opposed to it. Done right, I think it could be a boon to progressive causes.
 

HStallion

Now what's the next step in your master plan?
Not sure what you are saying here? That literally nothing has been done?

Do you see people still waving around Confederate flags acting like its all about states rights and all that jazz? Then we haven't done nearly enough.
 
Not sure how this will end up, need to know (much) more on this. Who are all the writers, directors, producers, more on the actual story, etc. Alternate reality storylines are wicked interesting but only when handled exceptionally well (like.. everything else I supposed). I'm assuming there's been plenty of posts with edginess up to 100 by people who act like the double Ds are the worst showrunners of all time despite being in charge in of one of the best tv shows ever made from a book series where the writer wrote it so it wouldn't be adaptable into TV.

Not saying the show will be great. I think what might hurt this show if it's not handled to perfection is the huge racial issues in the States. People at this point are going to look to get pissed off at anything so if they mishandle any aspect in this kind of storyline, they're going to get internet's wrath heading their way and possibly kill the show. I think with the timing of the social climate, it's a mistake, but what do I know? :\ I'll watch the promo and take it from there.
 
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