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[Phoenix]

1080p is entering a tad late in the game for hardware manufacturers to take it into account for their framebuffers and all that for consoles, plus, isnt it limited to 30fps? Thats not a problem for movies but i expect more than that from next gen consoles, im sure im not the only one. I think 720p and 1080i will be standard support with xenon.

There is no inherent frame rate limit to 1080p. 1080p is just the progressive version of 1080i. 1080p showing up in next generation consoles is just as unlikely as 1080i was showing up in this generation

 

[koam]

My Tv doesn't even support 720i/p, they better use 1080i. Also, the only digital input i have is dvi..

 

[Midas]

My Tv doesn't even support 720i/p, they better use 1080i. Also, the only digital input i have is dvi..

Everyone should get a new TV for next gen. Can't afford it? Well, that's too bad. :\

 

[Inumaru]

This is supposed to be the big take-off year for 1080p. Much of the sets shown at CES were 1080p based and with the massive price drops coming this year in large part due to a good number of chineese companies entering the plasma an LCD space, 1080p will be 'real' from the display perspective by the end of 2005. With 1080p LCD flat panels at 37 inches expected by the end of the year for $2500 - who knows


Source

Phoenix, where is the thing about 37 inch sets for $2500? I didn't see it in that article, maybe I missed it or was it from something else? If it had a decent picture I'd be all over that.

I haven't seen anything"low price" 1080p sets of any kind. I think the lowest price sets at CES were around $12000, with the others running closer to $20k/25k.

Regardless, I think it's important to remember that 1080p is twice the bandwidth of 720p or 1080i, roughly. I just don't see developers using that bandwidth to support 1080p when so few people will have sets that do it, at least for the next few years. But hell yeah, I hope 1080p becomes cheap soon, don't get me wrong.

 

[gofreak]

Kleegamefan:

I have been looking @ some upconverting DVD players, like the MOMITSU DVD-V880-DX PLAYER SUPPORT 480P & 720P & 1080i (HDTV). I know you out of all people would know. Will the Xbox2 or PlayStation3 upconvert like the MOMITSU DVD player that I mentioned above? If you know for sure that they will upconvert I will hold off buying the MOMITSU DVD player, but if they do not I will buy the MOMITSU DVD today.

I'm not Klee, but I think the answer is no, they won't upconvert to HD. I'm looking into one of those players myself, though - your thoughts on the Momitsu would be most welcome in OT if and when you get it.

Also, can't you just hook up a HDMI-out to a DVI-In using the appropriate cable, and in terms of video it'll be the exact same as HDMI-HDMI? In other words, if you have DVI, you shouldn't worry too much about compatability going into the next generation?

 

[Nerevar]

it's important to note that most of the sets shown at CES, while technically 1080p sets (as their native resolution), can't accept a 1080p signal. Samsung gave the run-around (a BS answer about HDMI not being able to transfer data that fast, which is false), but Sony basically said they aren't putting it in because there are currently no plans for consumer devices that output that quality (the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray players will only output at 1080i max). So 1080p "taking off" is still a number of years away.

And I hope they go with HDMI. No reason why not. HDMI - DVI is the same thing, just a different connector type and HDMI has a couple extra plugs for audio. Otherwise, they're identical (and adaptors are like $5).

 

[xsarien]

Some perspective, please?

The PS3, Xenon, and Revolution will likely ship with composite cables only. It offers an almost guaranteed way for the most people to play their games right out of the box without buying additional equipment. High end connections, whether it be component, DVI, or HDMI - while I'd obviously love to have them supported - are still relatively new to the consumer-grade stuff you find in Best Buy, and only component's recently started to come on sets with consumer-friendly prices.

So what will they do, at least in my opinion? Maybe be capable of going progressive, possibly even up to 720p on all games. Possible, bonafide DVI support on top of that. Nintendo's early comments on the Revolution hint at that anyway.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

IF DVI and HDMI are the same for video quality then why not just stick with DVI

and I say this because who is spening a few grand on their tv and is then NOT going to have a highend receiver for their audio

Unless I'm missing something and these highend 1080P tvs have fiber optic out for the sound?

I mean obviously if you have HDMI you can still also have Fiber Optic out but, it seems almost a waste to go with HDMI just to get the audio carried over when most people aren't going to be even using the TV's speakers

I don't run any sound through my TV speakers as it is now, it all goes through my receiver

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Some perspective, please?

The PS3, Xenon, and Revolution will likely ship with composite cables only. It offers an almost guaranteed way for the most people to play their games right out of the box without buying additional equipment. High end connections, whether it be component, DVI, or HDMI - while I'd obviously love to have them supported - are still relatively new to the consumer-grade stuff you find in Best Buy, and only component's recently started to come on sets with consumer-friendly prices.

So what will they do, at least in my opinion? Maybe be capable of going progressive, possibly even up to 720p on all games. Possible, bonafide DVI support on top of that. Nintendo's early comments on the Revolution hint at that anyway.

well I don't know what MS and Sony have said about it but from what Nintendo has said I would wager on them having DVI or maybe VGA support out of the box, I'm hoping they have componet support too as it's going to be a bit till I can afford an HDTV and the best my tv has now is componet

 

[Midas]

IF DVI and HDMI are the same for video quality then why not just stick with DVI

and I say this because who is spening a few grand on their tv and is then NOT going to have a highend receiver for their audio

Unless I'm missing something and these highend 1080P tvs have fiber optic out for the sound?

I mean obviously if you have HDMI you can still also have Fiber Optic out but, it seems almost a waste to go with HDMI just to get the audio carried over when most people aren't going to be even using the TV's speakers

I don't run any sound through my TV speakers as it is now, it all goes through my receiver

I think HDMI has some good encryption, that's why.

 

[AtomicShroom]

I'm planning on getting a new TV for next gen. HDTV stuff. I guess I'll wait until Xbox 2 is about to launch to get one, though... but I'm still on the fence about what to get for a TV. What technology to use. CRT? LCD? I like a crisp picture, but I don't like the geometry deformations that tube TVs currently have. My 27" Panasonic TAU has blurry left and right edges, and they're not 100% straight. They curve.

Why can't they make tube TVs with the same technology as computer monitors?

Then there's LCD, which I hear is great, but the "trail" effect really annoys me. Are there any kind of high-end LCD TVs with no such trail effect?

 

[Error Macro]

I think HDMI has some good encryption, that's why.

DVI + HDCP = same thing.

 

[Crazymoogle]

I'm planning on getting a new TV for next gen. HDTV stuff. I guess I'll wait until Xbox 2 is about to launch to get one, though... but I'm still on the fence about hat to get for a TV. What technology to use.

The general wisdom right now is: CRT over LCD, but if you go projection, 3LCD is good, LCOS/DLP are great, and there is some even crazier stuff on the horizon. It's such a mess of technology types that I felt compelled to do a writeup on it.

Why can't they make tube TVs with the same technology as computer monitors?

I'm told that dot pitch generally goes to hell at larger sizes, but (and Klee will probably correct me if I'm wrong on this) I think there are such sets, but at prices over 10K US?

Then there's LCD, which I hear is great, but the "trail" effect really annoys me. Are there any kind of high-end LCD TVs with no such trail effect?

I've heard recent sets are much better in that regard, but the only way to really know for sure involves checking sets out yourself in store. I would be brazen enough to haul along a gamecube (preferrably with F-ZERO GX, the GC component cable, and a wavebird), talk to a sales rep, and try playing some games on any particular TV. Eye sensitivity is always a big factor; I get headaches on PC monitors set below 85hz or even the Samsung model recommended in the OT forum, whereas others could probably go as low as 60hz and never notice a thing.

 

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, where is the thing about 37 inch sets for $2500? I didn't see it in that article, maybe I missed it or was it from something else? If it had a decent picture I'd be all over that.

I haven't seen anything"low price" 1080p sets of any kind. I think the lowest price sets at CES were around $12000, with the others running closer to $20k/25k.

Regardless, I think it's important to remember that 1080p is twice the bandwidth of 720p or 1080i, roughly. I just don't see developers using that bandwidth to support 1080p when so few people will have sets that do it, at least for the next few years. But hell yeah, I hope 1080p becomes cheap soon, don't get me wrong.

I'll have to go through my links from AVSForums.com. I believe it was discussed in an interview with Westinghouse. The sets you're talking about are 60+" sets

 

[Shin Johnpv]

FED and SED seem like the way to go if they come out and are affordable

they sound pretty damn good


giving the best of both worlds

 

[Phoenix]

And I hope they go with HDMI. No reason why not. HDMI - DVI is the same thing, just a different connector type and HDMI has a couple extra plugs for audio. Otherwise, they're identical (and adaptors are like $5).

A cheap RCA brand DVI->HDMI adapter is $49.99 - I just picked one up for an LCD flat panel. HDMI also supports copy protection over the HD signal whereas DVI does not.

 

[Midas]

DVI + HDCP = same thing.

Really? So, what's HDMI good for then?

 

[seanoff]

KLee, why then did sony choose to show their new ultra OMG rear pro qualia SXRD 006 with component cables then?

and then just to scare everyone there is this.

"Straighten Up and Fly Right: Silicon Image, who has the unenviable task of maintaining and updating the DVI and HDMI (High Definition Multimedia Interface) standards, has announced an HDMI interoperability program to ensure that HDMI-equipped DVD players, receivers, set-top boxes, and TVs actually work with each other. They’ve also come out with low-cost HDMI receivers and a brand-new HDMI-equipped video scaler and processor chip, the SiI 8100." http://www.hdtvexpert.com/pages/ces2005.htm

 

[Error Macro]

Really? So, what's HDMI good for then?

I mean as far as copy protected video signals go. HDMI has the ability to pass audio signals in addition to video. That is all. Since no one really makes use of that so far, I'd say it's pretty worthless.

 

[Midas]

I mean as far as copy protected video signals go. HDMI has the ability to pass audio signals in addition to video. That is all. Since no one really makes use of that so far, I'd say it's pretty worthless.

Aah ok, got it. Got a really old TV so I'm not used to these new input "systems".

 

[Crazymoogle]

There is no inherent frame rate limit to 1080p. 1080p is just the progressive version of 1080i. 1080p showing up in next generation consoles is just as unlikely as 1080i was showing up in this generation

Actually, the ATSC spec for 1080p is indeed 30fps. However, I'm guessing the spec is easy enough to mess around with, because more than a few manufacturers seem to be gunning for 1080p60 down the road.

 

[Kleegamefan]

I'm not Klee, but I think the answer is no, they won't upconvert to HD. I'm looking into one of those players myself, though - your thoughts on the Momitsu would be most welcome in OT if and when you get it.

Well I *AM* K.Lee and I believe the answer to be yes

In all seriousness, though, they will both be able to upconvert to HD...

If the XENON overview document is accurate:


http://forums.xbox-scene.com/index.php?showtopic=231928

Then you will be able to upconvert to HD on XENON:

In addition to an extremely powerful GPU, Xenon also includes a very high-quality resize filter. This filter allows consumers to choose whatever output mode they desire. Xenon automatically scales the game’s output buffer to the consumer-chosen resolution.

As for PS3 and BRD Richard E. Doherty, Managing Director for Blu-ray at the Panasonic Hollywood Labs was quoted as saying that *ALL* BRD products will have scalers that will allow multiple display resolutions output from the deck to the TV....I will try to find the quote:

Oh, and PS3 will be using BRD as a format:

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/09-21-2004/0002255248&EDATE=

 

[Kleegamefan]

Some good/informative quotes from Mr. Doherty:

As part of the Blu-ray Disc spec, layer changes and cutlist (seeking) playback are all guaranteed to be seamless -- the correct amount of buffer is mandatory as part of the spec. Seamless means no interruption to video or audio playback.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=103

No more layer-change pauses!!

Disc prices are still to be determined, but I can certainly tell you in no uncertain terms that the bill of materials for the playback devices are nearly identical(for Blu-ray and HD-DVD). The expensive bit is the blue laser diode, which both formats require. While the ultimate retail price is based on a number of factors, basically there is no difference in cost to actually build the players of either format.(Blu-ray and HD-DVD)

Note also that it is much cheaper to make a Blu-ray recorder than a HD-DVD recoder, since HD-DVD recorders require significantly higher power blue lasers.

For Blu-ray disc recorders, the delta is small between a recorder and a playback-only device. Most of the cost delta is in things like integrated tuners and more input connectors. I predict (though I cannot speak for all manufacturers) that most of the Blu-ray devices available at launch will have both playback and record functionality built in.

Contrast to HD-DVD, where not only do they have the same delta based on integrated tuners, but they also require a much higher power laser, which can be significantly more expensive. Indeed, it's not even clear the high power lasers (we're talking like 100 mW for dual layer) can yet be mass produced at any reasonable cost. NEC has stated publicly their HD-DVD computer drives will only be used for playback, and public statements from Toshiba suggest the same approach.

If recordability is of any interest to you (perhaps the 8cm BD-RE disc for HD camcorders), HD-DVD currently presents serious limitations.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=143

Hmmm...good to know....

HD-DVD, due to the smaller spot size, will be more susceptible to any surface materials than DVD. So if they fail to compensate either by a change in cover material, and/or an enhancement of the ECC, they will be at a disadvantage.

I know what you're looking for in regards to guarantees of replication, but I'm only representing the format. And it doesn't help that I'm from Panasonic, since Panasonic doesn't do ROM disc replication anymore.

All I can offer is what is in the spec -- the spec clearly specifies test tolerances and measurements for hardness (using pin impact measurements) and for scratch resistance (using taber abrasion tests), among others, and discusses recommendations for hard coating to meet these test requirements.

In other words: for a disc to meet the specs, it will need to be more robust than DVD, whatever the method employed.

If you go to CES, you can see several examples of BD-ROM discs from several companies. Let us know if your fingerprints stick to them.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=159

the specific details of the specification and the parameters are only available to members or licensors of the BDA. All major replicators are one or the other, so they have the complete specs.

I can give you some insight, however. Two of the major areas of change that directly affect yield are: allowable variation in cover layer thickness and maximum rim height. Overall quality is maintained by testing a very large number of discs and verifying the error rate does not increase. Cover layer thickness was a challenging part of the replication process, especially for dual layer discs, so modifying this requirement increase yield. Rim height is a parameter that proved significant when more recent spin coating techniques are employed that can provide some buildup at the outside edge of the disc. Increasing the allowable rim height allows yields to increase using spin coating techniques.

Again, a large amount of verification work was done to make sure the error rate is not increased by these parameter changes.

50GB ROM production will probably trail 25 GB ROM production by about 3-4 months. If any BD-ROM product is released at Christmas 2005, 50 GB ROM discs will probably not be ready for mass production. If the first products start shipping in the middle of 2006 (which is somewhat more likely), then 50 GB should be ready to go. It will certainly be more expensive, public figures put it about 50% more than the cost of single layer. [Contrast current DVD, where dual-layer costs about 30-40% more than single-layer]

By this measure, dual-layer BD is actually in a little better shape than dual-layer DVD was when DVD launched. DVD had dual-layer available from day one, but nobody really released any significant amount of dual-layer titles until two years after the format launch because of prohibitive cost. [My memory is dim: was Golden Eye the first DVD-9 title?]

BRD more robust than eithier HD-DVD *or* DVD....that is good to know...

 

[Nerevar]

A cheap RCA brand DVI->HDMI adapter is $49.99 - I just picked one up for an LCD flat panel. HDMI also supports copy protection over the HD signal whereas DVI does not.

That's interesting .. I just bought a 3-foot DVI <-> HDMI cord (it's a 2-way signal) for $40. All a DVI <-> HDMI adaptor is doing is pin reassignment, so it sounds to me like you paid a bit too much for that.

And as has been stated before, the copy protection is HDCP. It is not specific to HDMI, it's just that almost every HDMI plug supports HDCP and not every DVI connection does.

 

[Kleegamefan]

You guys pay waaaay too much for stuff...there is no need to spend a lot of money on DVI-HDMI cables or adapters. It's just a pin adapter and there are no active electronics.

http://svideo.com/dvihdmi2.html

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90140123&loc=

 

[Nerevar]

You guys pay waaaay too much for stuff...there is no need to spend a lot of money on DVI-HDMI cables or adapters. It's just a pin adapter and there are no active electronics.

http://svideo.com/dvihdmi2.html

http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=90140123&loc=

good lord, I paid retail price for a 3-foot cable! AGH!

I love how Circuit City told me I "had to buy" their Monster Cable product. Right, I'm going to drop $100 on a 3-foot cable that transmits a digital waveform, therefore suffering virtually no interference. I wonder how much money Monster is making on those.

 

[cobragt3]

here's my tv's manual, could I use hdmi on my tv?
http://img18.exs.cx/img18/8383/hdtv8va.jpg
I believe I can use hdcp but I dont know what all of that means

look at that hdmi cord, that looks like it could fit in my tv but I'm not sure

 

[Nerevar]

here's my tv's manual, could I use hdmi on my tv?
http://img18.exs.cx/img18/8383/hdtv8va.jpg
I believe I can use hdcp but I dont know what all of that means

look at that hdmi cord, that looks like it could fit in my tv but I'm not sure

You need to buy an HDMI - DVI adaptor (look at the links that were posted by KLee, they're pretty cheap, and you don't have to worry about signal loss so don't spend more for a "quality brand"). You cannot plug an HDMI cable into your DVI slot.

And I have no idea if your set supports HDCP, you'd havce to do some research on that.

 

[WordofGod]

And I have no idea if your set supports HDCP, you'd havce to do some research on that.

My Samsung HDTV says DVI with HDCP. What does that mean?

 

[cobragt3]

http://zenith.com/
go there to look at my model, my model # is C32V37

 

[Nerevar]

DVI with HDCP means that you can play encrypted data. I don't know of anything that uses it now, but next generation movie players (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) will probably only output HDCP copy-protected information (so it can't be easily pirated). This means that if you have a TV without HDCP then you won't be able to use those movie players. Both the TV sets you guys provided say they have HDCP, so you should be fine.

 

[koam]

Everyone should get a new TV for next gen. Can't afford it? Well, that's too bad. :\

I bought my TV this year. It supports 480p/i and 1080i, no 720 support. I didn't think it would have mattered. It's retarded if my NEW tv is obsolete after just 1 year.

 

[Nerevar]

I bought my TV this year. It supports 480p/i and 1080i, no 720 support. I didn't think it would have mattered. It's retarded if my NEW tv is obsolete after just 1 year.

There are lots of CRT TVs like this. If KLee's post is accurate, then it sounds like the xbox will be able to upsample it's native 720p content to 1080i content for your TV.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

I bought my TV this year. It supports 480p/i and 1080i, no 720 support. I didn't think it would have mattered. It's retarded if my NEW tv is obsolete after just 1 year.

this is exactly why I keep telling my brother to wait on buying a brand new HDTV

at least wait till some one steps in and sets a fucking standard

 

[Nerevar]

this is exactly why I keep telling my brother to wait on buying a brand new HDTV

at least wait till some one steps in and sets a fucking standard

Not gonna happen. Both 720p and 1080i are parts of the HD standard (ATSC table 3 standard). In fact, for a TV to be marketed as a "true HDTV" it has to support both formats. Otherwise, it can only be marketed as an "HD Monitor".

 

[Kleegamefan]

^^^listen to this man....he knoweth what he speak...^^^^