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He’s not wrong, is he? Critical Drinker on superheroes and woke culture...
- Thread starter FunkMiller
- Start date
Lupingosei
Banned
It all comes down to what Syndrom said in The Incredibles, everybody wants to special and when everybody is, nobody will be.
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GeorgPrime
Banned
Perseus was slaying Medusa, it was the first ancient greek woke woman that annoyed people too much lol
Like i said before: If a new WAR breaks out... those WOKE people wont be the heroes fighting for their countries. They will just hide in their basement and hopes peace talks will succeed.
Like i said before: If a new WAR breaks out... those WOKE people wont be the heroes fighting for their countries. They will just hide in their basement and hopes peace talks will succeed.
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S
slugbahr
Unconfirmed Member
No.
They will be the treasonous scumfucks that will try to help burn down western civilisations.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
They already do.
Punished Miku
Banned
It's a well written rant. But ultimately, I don't think that SJW heroes really represent anyone but the small niche of writers themselves. The books aren't popular, and people aren't emulating SJW heroes. Most of these barely sell anything, and the whole comic book industry is almost dead. I'd look at what is actually popular for kids and teenagers first and then write an analysis of that. I honestly don't know what is popular with them these days - but it's probably mostly social media. Instead of emulating heroes, there is a growing narcissism and self-promotion. I don't think anyone even pays attention to this comic.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I'll try it out but I generally don't like this dude.
nush
Gold Member
He even says as much in the video.
Punished Miku
Banned
I watched it. He says they are created as a reflection of the writer. But where I disagree is that he then says all of society views those creations as the new thing to strive for. They don't. Maybe they will someday, but they don't now. These aren't great stories, or the replacement of the hero story. They're just barely visible, failing comics that don't sell.
QSD
Member
As much as I enjoy the drinker's style, I do think there are valid reasons to criticize superhero culture. Does the world really need more people that aspire to slay dragons and look glamorous while doing it? Honestly here in The Netherlands there are huge shortages of teachers, of care workers, of tradespeople. There aren't huge shortages of people who want to be world famous soccer players, rappers, influencers etc etc. The real heros are IMHO people who put aside their vanity and help care for the elderly or mentally handicapped, for example. Or who help pick up garbage, fix the piping in your house or deliver your amazon order on time.
FunkMiller
Banned
Personally, I have absolutely no problem with woke folks creating new characters and narratives that reflect their views, and better represent under represented members of society.
What I fucking hate is the hijacking of existing characters to push an ideology - thus ruining the character for its pre- existing fans.
But the woke do appear to be pretty fucking lazy when it comes to actually putting in the hard work and the long yards to get their point across. They’d rather jump on other people’s work, and alter it to suit their agendas.
What I fucking hate is the hijacking of existing characters to push an ideology - thus ruining the character for its pre- existing fans.
But the woke do appear to be pretty fucking lazy when it comes to actually putting in the hard work and the long yards to get their point across. They’d rather jump on other people’s work, and alter it to suit their agendas.
Calcium
Banned
He's absolutely right. My wife and I watched this video in bed last night and had a lengthy talk about it. It's why media sucks so much right now, all these millennial creators can't get past their own narcissism to create a character that will appeal to a broad audience. This isn't going to get any better until people realize "My character is gay, black and trans!" isn't compelling in and of itself.
ManofOne
Plus Member
So you disagree with having a female, black James Bond..... sorry excuse me Jamalia Bonda.
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QSD
Member
Haha, never bought a Mario game, have you?
But I get your point, most of these jobs are necessary but boring. I was speaking to the point in the drinker's video about heroes being aspirational figures rather than simply entertaining.
nush
Gold Member
I've seen this behavior in a different field before. When I worked in a game store you'd get these parents come in asking for the educational software. I just got the whole vibe from them that they thought because little Timmy liked playing games if they swapped out the game for an educational one they would trick him into learning without putting in any effort.
This character is popular, swap them out for a woke one and bingo, you've also become woke!
QSD
Member
I mean, there's tons of games out there that have an educational component; civilization, flight simulator, sim city etc etc etc. Not all of them are appealing to young children of course. But I definitely learned some shit about history from playing the first Civilization when I was 11 or 12. If that fails you can always sell 'em the latest Mortal Kombat as a "human anatomy simulator" ;-)
It's Jeff
Banned
There's the aspect of artistic vision that I completely understand. If there's an idea that's compelling, go with it. Be willing to accept the risk that it's a story that's incredibly meaningful to the author, but might not resonate with the audience at large. But the catch is you can't ever blame the audience for not latching on to it. You can't say it's their own prejudice that tanked the launch. Niche storytelling rarely catches fire with a mass audience.
I don't really see this as the case. Given how hard DC and Marvel have pushed this in the past few years, I don't see this as a real artistic gamble. It's narcissism from executives that don't ask themselves what audiences want, but believe it's their obligation to tell them what they want. You don't have to surrender to fanservice; that's a bad path as well. That arrogance though, nobody has time for that. It's the same awful path Star Wars went down and when you can measure rejection in real dollars and cents, it's a good time to consider if correcting, not questioning views, is really what people want.
I don't really see this as the case. Given how hard DC and Marvel have pushed this in the past few years, I don't see this as a real artistic gamble. It's narcissism from executives that don't ask themselves what audiences want, but believe it's their obligation to tell them what they want. You don't have to surrender to fanservice; that's a bad path as well. That arrogance though, nobody has time for that. It's the same awful path Star Wars went down and when you can measure rejection in real dollars and cents, it's a good time to consider if correcting, not questioning views, is really what people want.
ManofOne
Plus Member
This is exactly it. The problem is that you have ppl owning property (which is rightfully theirs) but adhering to the belief that everyone should have the same moral properties they do and these products should undergo a transition to reflect those ideals.
Nihilism is a perfect word to summarize what is happening.
I think he is definitely on to something here.
It makes a lot of sense, really.
If you asked the most rabid SJW activists if they thought pop culture has an influence on how people live then they would say yes.
So you've got this bunch of people who think they want to tear down the system.
They think pop culture is a reason the system even exists.
So it follows that they would want to tear down tropes and norms etc etc.
I think they have it backwards though.
Popular things are popular because they connect with the people.
This is highly unpredictable though and many things just seem to connect out of nowhere and out of nothing.
It's not like it can be easily and purposefully engineered.
Otherwise every movie would be a smash hit.
The activist types seem to think the opposite is true.
People love superhero movies but I hate male superheroes.
So if I make a fat lady superhero movie people will love it because superhero movies are popular.
The problem there is that good storytelling is good storytelling regardless of marketing or special effects etc.
Eventually you will just create a subculture of low budget movies that are giving people what they want.
You can see that already with comics and some of the less woke creators finding big success on Kickstarter and Indiegogo etc.
The large entertainment companies are still arrogant enough that they think people will just keep on mindlessly consuming what ever they churn out.
It's actually a bit of a blind spot if you ask me.
You can't force people to watch Captain Marvel so eventually you'll have audience members who will understand that yes the Marvel movies have the most expensive effects and are shown on the biggest screens but there is better storytelling elsewhere.
They can only go so far with tearing everything down until people decide that they are fine settling for a bit less technical quality if they can get entertainment they will actually enjoy.
We'll see how franchises like Marvel and Star Wars do as they move forward.
It makes a lot of sense, really.
If you asked the most rabid SJW activists if they thought pop culture has an influence on how people live then they would say yes.
So you've got this bunch of people who think they want to tear down the system.
They think pop culture is a reason the system even exists.
So it follows that they would want to tear down tropes and norms etc etc.
I think they have it backwards though.
Popular things are popular because they connect with the people.
This is highly unpredictable though and many things just seem to connect out of nowhere and out of nothing.
It's not like it can be easily and purposefully engineered.
Otherwise every movie would be a smash hit.
The activist types seem to think the opposite is true.
People love superhero movies but I hate male superheroes.
So if I make a fat lady superhero movie people will love it because superhero movies are popular.
The problem there is that good storytelling is good storytelling regardless of marketing or special effects etc.
Eventually you will just create a subculture of low budget movies that are giving people what they want.
You can see that already with comics and some of the less woke creators finding big success on Kickstarter and Indiegogo etc.
The large entertainment companies are still arrogant enough that they think people will just keep on mindlessly consuming what ever they churn out.
It's actually a bit of a blind spot if you ask me.
You can't force people to watch Captain Marvel so eventually you'll have audience members who will understand that yes the Marvel movies have the most expensive effects and are shown on the biggest screens but there is better storytelling elsewhere.
They can only go so far with tearing everything down until people decide that they are fine settling for a bit less technical quality if they can get entertainment they will actually enjoy.
We'll see how franchises like Marvel and Star Wars do as they move forward.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
OP's video says it all.
Particularly the part about rejecting the potential to reach higher and elevate oneself to greater things, in favour of dragging those above down to lower levels.
Particularly the part about rejecting the potential to reach higher and elevate oneself to greater things, in favour of dragging those above down to lower levels.
#Phonepunk#
Banned
it's good stuff
the thing about the old myths is, they weren't just written by one person. they were written BY A CULTURE. they are stories that were passed down from father to son. from family to family. you don't pass stories like that unless they are badass stories. meaningful stories. stories that hold some kind of eternal truths. those classical myths were created by entire communities, over hundreds of years.
compared to that, some shit that a single, unstable individual crapped out over a weekend, no wonder this shit is trash. the problem with hyper representational storytelling is that it tends to be hyper personal. old myths were universal because they appealed to everyone. it's not like Homer just wrote stories about himself.
like this chick, she writes a character that thinks like her, looks like her, etc. imagine if whoever invented the tales of Hercules was a fat out of shape man, and Hercules was not a towering demigod, but just a fat, out of shape man, who didn't accomplish amazing things. would that story even get told? no. there is a reason our heroes are idealized and not 1:1 representations of who we are. these fuckheads don't seem to think so, they misunderstand the very medium they are working in.
the problem is, storytelling used to be a specialized profession. nowadays they hand it out to any jackass that can mash a keyboard. SJW writers are all self-obsessed, so everything they make is all about them. their stories will never have the resonance of the old myths because they aren't aiming for that wide of an audience. it's only there to appease the SJW class. the myths of old used to be for EVERYONE.
the thing about the old myths is, they weren't just written by one person. they were written BY A CULTURE. they are stories that were passed down from father to son. from family to family. you don't pass stories like that unless they are badass stories. meaningful stories. stories that hold some kind of eternal truths. those classical myths were created by entire communities, over hundreds of years.
compared to that, some shit that a single, unstable individual crapped out over a weekend, no wonder this shit is trash. the problem with hyper representational storytelling is that it tends to be hyper personal. old myths were universal because they appealed to everyone. it's not like Homer just wrote stories about himself.
like this chick, she writes a character that thinks like her, looks like her, etc. imagine if whoever invented the tales of Hercules was a fat out of shape man, and Hercules was not a towering demigod, but just a fat, out of shape man, who didn't accomplish amazing things. would that story even get told? no. there is a reason our heroes are idealized and not 1:1 representations of who we are. these fuckheads don't seem to think so, they misunderstand the very medium they are working in.
the problem is, storytelling used to be a specialized profession. nowadays they hand it out to any jackass that can mash a keyboard. SJW writers are all self-obsessed, so everything they make is all about them. their stories will never have the resonance of the old myths because they aren't aiming for that wide of an audience. it's only there to appease the SJW class. the myths of old used to be for EVERYONE.
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QSD
Member
I wish that this were more true than it is. It only took like 5 (or maybe 4.5) dogshit transformers movies and 10 years before, very slowly, it started to dawn on some people that they actually need to write a story and have that story actually be about the transformers, rather than about some random hot chicks and explosions.
Video games have also been in this weird place for a long time where there are a lot of developers that spend insane amounts of money trying to get the best graphical fildelity and being 'immersive', trying to have their games be more like movies, while forgetting gameplay and innovation
LOL wait till you actually need to find someone to patiently teach your dyslexic kid how to read and write, and the only people that are available are a bunch of self-absorbed, jacked-as-fucked, spandex wearing, one-liner spouting asshats that are just looking for the next opportunity to look good while taking down a 400 foot alien monstrosity and that think teaching kids is 'beneath' them. ;-)
highrider
Banned
That’s what you do when you can’t create or build.
FunkMiller
Banned
She’s not James Bond, genius. She’s just a new 007. I have no issues with this.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
The shift from war movies to Marvel movies in popular culture was the canary in the coal mine for us.
"Why don't they shoot him in the leg or kung fu the knife out of his hands like Iron Man and John Wick do..."
"Why don't they shoot him in the leg or kung fu the knife out of his hands like Iron Man and John Wick do..."
Aesthetically a fat hero is pretty unappealing, especially in a spray paint outfit which is the comic norm.
Most superheroes are shown to be dedicated determined people with a high training op-tempo, so it makes sense they would be in at least decent shape. The ultrashredded look is a bit ridiculous but aesthetically it is appealing so I get why it is the norm.
But a pudgy lardass hero...why? Are they self abusive? Lazy? Somehow genetically predisposed to being fat? A condition of their power set?
IDpol will ruin comics even more than they are already a passe medium (IMHO). A hero whose race, gender, or orientation is the CORE of their being will never work well, I don't think. That is really more of a villian "one note" concept.
Most superheroes are shown to be dedicated determined people with a high training op-tempo, so it makes sense they would be in at least decent shape. The ultrashredded look is a bit ridiculous but aesthetically it is appealing so I get why it is the norm.
But a pudgy lardass hero...why? Are they self abusive? Lazy? Somehow genetically predisposed to being fat? A condition of their power set?
IDpol will ruin comics even more than they are already a passe medium (IMHO). A hero whose race, gender, or orientation is the CORE of their being will never work well, I don't think. That is really more of a villian "one note" concept.
GeorgPrime
Banned
Woke will tell you "That are all outdated culturual views that doesnt fit nowdays anymore. So just burn the books and destroy evidence of those times so we can live in a more peaceful world"
The moment Deer People jump around me is the moment i will buy a gun lol
ManofOne
Plus Member
Then the rules here are a little murky. This isn't (at least me) complete removal or rebranding of Starfire but a separate (most definite shitter) storyline which to me isn't a problem.
At the end of the day, comic and graphic novel lovers will vote what they like with their wallets. From what I've seen this type of comics doesn't last long.
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FunkMiller
Banned
bender
What time is it?
Syndrome must have been a fan of Dr. Suess.
QSD
Member
LOL now I'm picturing a "kindergarten cop" like movie where batman has to teach kids... complete with batblackboard, batchalk and batbeamer. "Ok which one of little brats pulled my cape?"
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DrJohnGalt
Banned
QSD
Member
This is also a good point... like most wise people would advise strongly against any kind of hero worship. Outside of the very young (who definitely need role models) it's probably not healthy. You could argue that in a weird way, all this SJW 'purity testing' is a kind of epiphenomenon of hero worship where the SJW's hold "real life heroes"=celebrities/politicians up to the same impossible standards that superheroes are held to
captainnapalm
Member
SJWs see themselves as oppressed, so they are always pointing the finger at others. But when it comes to being aware of their own flaws or shortcomings - not so good. That's why they can be such trainwrecks sometimes - you take a person in need of A LOT of improvement and tell them they don't need any, they're a victim, and it's the world outside that's wrong. Psychologically, it's the exact wrong way to act in the world, and it's the exact opposite of the heroic archetype, which is to take responsibility for your own actions and face the danger of the world head-on. That's why so many of them are self-destructive, narcissistic, unstable and selfish. You can bet this fat Goth chick is going to have some of these same qualities.
So yeah, they absolutely can't write heroic characters or create good heroic fiction. Their best approximation of a hero is the Mary Sue - the flawless heroine - but again, this is just a sad distortion of the heroic archetype. Just create a character who can do everything and overcomes any obstacle with ease, make them black, gay or a woman, and you have a hero, just like all those horrible white men of the past. But of course it doesn't work that way.
So yeah, they absolutely can't write heroic characters or create good heroic fiction. Their best approximation of a hero is the Mary Sue - the flawless heroine - but again, this is just a sad distortion of the heroic archetype. Just create a character who can do everything and overcomes any obstacle with ease, make them black, gay or a woman, and you have a hero, just like all those horrible white men of the past. But of course it doesn't work that way.
DeepBreath87
Banned
See they think the hero’s obstacle is their skin color or gender, so they don’t need to provide actual story based struggles. The very act of them succeeding is them overcoming adversity, so there is no need for them to struggle or fail. The struggle is inherent in their identify.
The truth is, far left types are masters of projection. They see others as closed minded, yet it is them who most wants to cram down their points of view onto the whole of society. They see society as oppressors but they are the most aggressive when it comes to deplatforming or destroying anyone who publicly opposes them.
The left has become an inversion of themselves. They believe they are good inherently, so all their actions are good. As a result, every heinous thing they do can be justified.
There is no limit placed on them from within the left. The right generally attempts to police its own self to a degree. Open racism, for example, is generally stomped out on the right. Racism is thriving on the left. Segregation is openly discussed. It’s clown world over there.
The super hero stuff is a wonderful encapsulation of this.
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QSD
Member
as much as I would like to keep it lighthearted, I can't really find a way to do that with this take, but I'll try to hold the snark
Dividing people up neatly in two categories, one good, one bad, is in itself a kind of segregation
Accusing others of what you yourself are doing is a hallmark of projection
Attributing everything bad to one category is pretty 'closed minded' in my book
DeepBreath87
Banned
Yeah yeah. Except I didn’t say all of x people are bad, did I? I said all of this stuff culturally is coming from one direction and there is very little push back from within the left. The left isn’t bad. But elements of it certainly are and there needs to be some push back from within that side to correct it.
sol_bad
Member
Critical Drinker isn't really saying anything in this video, it's just none sensical rambling.
I absolutely don't care about this book and don't ever intend to read it, it's not aimed at me at all. This Starfire book isn't out until August next year from what I can tell and if it silently gets cancelled than we'll know that DC's YA graphic novels are not successful, but if it does release than that is very indicative that their YA graphic novels are selling well enough.
We are not the target audience and it's not aimed at us but there is most likely an audience out there. This book has nothing to do with the real DC comic book universe, you could think of it as an alternate reality story, much like the Chinese Batman book that was released. They don't affect or impact the cannon universe.
DC allowing authors and artists to create alternate reality stories is perfectly fine, I don't see how you can think that is a problem. And Critical Thinker pointing out what the author looked like, so what, maybe the author did have a tough time when they crew up and their life experiences are in this book.
It's not a good video and it is not put together very well at all. If he wants to analyse this title than he should read it first with no bias and then give his opinion about the story and themes. If he wants to prove that there is no audience for these YA books ...... he has done absolutely nothing to prove his point. There are no stats or facts presented anywhere in this video.
I absolutely don't care about this book and don't ever intend to read it, it's not aimed at me at all. This Starfire book isn't out until August next year from what I can tell and if it silently gets cancelled than we'll know that DC's YA graphic novels are not successful, but if it does release than that is very indicative that their YA graphic novels are selling well enough.
We are not the target audience and it's not aimed at us but there is most likely an audience out there. This book has nothing to do with the real DC comic book universe, you could think of it as an alternate reality story, much like the Chinese Batman book that was released. They don't affect or impact the cannon universe.
DC allowing authors and artists to create alternate reality stories is perfectly fine, I don't see how you can think that is a problem. And Critical Thinker pointing out what the author looked like, so what, maybe the author did have a tough time when they crew up and their life experiences are in this book.
It's not a good video and it is not put together very well at all. If he wants to analyse this title than he should read it first with no bias and then give his opinion about the story and themes. If he wants to prove that there is no audience for these YA books ...... he has done absolutely nothing to prove his point. There are no stats or facts presented anywhere in this video.
QSD
Member
So let me put it this way: I work in a home for people with psychiatric problems. It's 25% male 75% female because it's a caring profession. I'd say about 18 out of 20 people vote left wing*, which is what you'd expect in such a workplace. Despite this, just about nobody on our team cares much about political correctness. We go through a lot of intense stuff together (like fires, knife wielding psychotic people, suicides, you name it) and one of the ways to cope is black humor. Even my most stereotypically left wing (LBGTQ) colleagues participate in this and they don't hold back. There's one colleague who recently left, a guy, who, while otherwise decent, developed an interest in speech policing, but the girls basically just kept triggering him until he gave up.
Like, we sometimes watch the news together during evening break and if the woman that authored that comic would appear on tv in any kind of semi-representative capcity... hoo boy is all I can say
*it's pretty complicated in the netherlands, for example christian parties are seperate and hard to pin on "left or right" but this is extremely roughly speaking
So ehm yeah, just some on-the-scene reporting from your correspondent in clown world
DeepBreath87
Banned
That’s a wonderful anecdote. But I’ll give you a much larger scale example.
In 2017 a bunch of really stupid people on the right got together and had a rally called “Unite the Right”. They brought tiki torches and did a whole thing. It wasn’t a klan rally per se, but parts of it were definitely white supremacist in nature. The following day there were clashes between those guys and the counter protesters and some asshole ended up killing a woman with his car and hurting a bunch of other people. That rally was in one city almost 4 years ago. It still gets brought up as something terrible. The right largely disavows the entire thing. The president gave a fairly limp response and was castigated for years about it.
Contrast that with what happened in the US this summer. George Floyd dies in an ugly way, although he was definitely ODing on fentanyl when he died. Regardless he was not attended to correctly by the police and arguably abused when they held him down by the neck after he lost consciousness. Nationwide protests erupt. City blocks are torn apart. Stores are looted. Multiple people are killed just defending their property. This goes on for weeks in many places. No one from the left says a negative fucking word for weeks and weeks. News operations pretend it’s all peaceful or make excuses. After literally months of this, Joe Biden gives some mush-mouthed “all violence is bad” speech. Never calls out the responsible groups.
This is the difference. The right truly doesn’t have much tolerance for it’s insane aspects these days. The left either pretends theirs don’t exist or justifies them.
Dacon
Banned
He literally tells you his point, it's pretty straightforward. "None sensical" is hardly descriptive of the content of this video.
It makes a lot more sense than this garbled nonsense you put together.
The absolutely laughable sales for all comic books of this nature in the last 10 years is more than enough to prove that there is no audience. DC and Marvel has pandered to this crowd nonstop and they still refuse to buy their books, and their sales continue to tank.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
I like the Drinker and his takes a lot, but this video was a bit cringey with this big heroic speech mannerism he was doing.
And on that emo land whale, let them create this if they want to go bankrupt.
Who cares.
And on that emo land whale, let them create this if they want to go bankrupt.
Who cares.
Schrödinger's cat
Banned
Your arms must be exhausted.
Stiflers Mom
Banned
I think this is one of the first times we have the same opinion on something.
It's like talking about this kind of shit makes it more important than it is.
sol_bad
Member
10 years? Please show me the sales numbers of these apparent YA comics from the past 10 years. As far as I am aware, this is a newish endeavor for DC. And no, Marvel and DC have not been "pandering" to the woke crowd for the last 10 years. For example, Kate Bishop was created back in 2004 and took on the name Hawkeye after Clint Barton died. Back in 2004 people were not calling Marvel woke, Marvel haven't changed in that respect (having female or other ethnic versions of characters), people have changed.
Marvel have actually made some of the best runs over the last 10 years.
Jason Aarons Thor
Matt Fractions Hawkeye
Jonathan Hickmans Fantastic Four
Jonathan Hickmans Avengers and New Avengers
Dan Slotts Superior Spider-Man
Ak Ewings current Immortal Hulk
Mark Waids Daredevil
Ed Brubaker Winter Soldier
Jason Aarons Wolverine and the X-Men
Rick Remenders Uncanny X-Force
Tom Kings Vision
Duggan and Posehns Deadpool
Ta-Nehesi Coates Black Panther
Kieron Gillens Journey into Mystery
Kieron Gillens Darth Vader
The last 10 years have been stacked by great books from Marvel. Yes they have had a lot of stinkers but they have nothing to do with wokeism, they are just bad books. The "woke" stuff is just middle ground, not great, not bad. Marvel don't even have a YA collection of books from what I know.
DC I'm not as well versed in but some of their New 52 and Rebirth books have been amazing.
Scott Snyders Batman
Tom Kings Batman
James Tynion IVs Detective Comics
Jeff lemires Animal Man
Scott Snyder and Charles souls Swamp Thing
Francis Manipuls The Flash
Geoff Johns Justice League
If you really care about comics and if you haven't read any of the above you should give them a shot.
There is so much out there discover other than what these negative nancy channels promote to try and make the industry look bad.
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