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[nkarafo]

I think all these companies try to lose money through failure so they can have reduced taxes or something. Is there such thing, i'm not sure? And they figured, if they go woke, it will seem like they also "care" about people so this way they will make themselves look virtuous while saving tax money at the same time or something. Kill two birds with one stone.

I will not believe in a second that any corporation is so dumb to produce all these shitty woke products and think there is a big enough audience to be profitable. I will also not believe that any of these corporations prefer to be virtuous and caring instead of being profitable. There is no such thing, there was never such thing, corporations will ALWAYS try to make money no matter what. So there has to be something in these crazy dumb scenarios that will earn/save more money for them in the end.

 

[Dacon]

10 years? Please show me the sales numbers of these apparent YA comics from the past 10 years. As far as I am aware, this is a newish endeavor for DC. And no, Marvel and DC have not been "pandering" to the woke crowd for the last 10 years. For example, Kate Bishop was created back in 2004 and took on the name Hawkeye after Clint Barton died. Back in 2004 people were not calling Marvel woke, Marvel haven't changed in that respect (having female or other ethnic versions of characters), people have changed.

Marvel have actually made some of the best runs over the last 10 years.
Jason Aarons Thor
Matt Fractions Hawkeye
Jonathan Hickmans Fantastic Four
Jonathan Hickmans Avengers and New Avengers
Dan Slotts Superior Spider-Man
Ak Ewings current Immortal Hulk
Mark Waids Daredevil
Ed Brubaker Winter Soldier
Jason Aarons Wolverine and the X-Men
Rick Remenders Uncanny X-Force
Tom Kings Vision
Duggan and Posehns Deadpool
Ta-Nehesi Coates Black Panther
Kieron Gillens Journey into Mystery
Kieron Gillens Darth Vader
DC I'm not as well versed in but some of their New 52 and Rebirth books have been amazing.

Scott Snyders Batman
Tom Kings Batman
James Tynion IVs Detective Comics
Jeff lemires Animal Man
Scott Snyder and Charles souls Swamp Thing
Francis Manipuls The Flash
Geoff Johns Justice League

If you really care about comics and if you haven't read any of the above you should give them a shot.
There is so much out there discover other than what these negative nancy channels promote to try and make the industry look bad.

Most of what youve listed here ranges from garbage to mediocre. Best runs my ass. Tom King's Batman has especially been garbage, and hated by most of the readership and long time batfans.

Immortal Hulk's been ok, and Superior Spider-Man was fun for its extremely short run time, and Otto's spinoff got cancelled in such a stupid way it soured the whole fucking thing.

There's a reason DC and Marvel have had so many firings and restructurings over the last 2 years. This shit isn't working and they've been bleeding fans for so damn long.

The last 10 years have been stacked by great books from Marvel. Yes they have had a lot of stinkers but they have nothing to do with wokeism, they are just bad books. The "woke" stuff is just middle ground, not great, not bad. Marvel don't even have a YA collection of books from what I know.

Either you haven't been paying attention, or you really don't read these books. The woke shit has been AWFUL and it's not some minority of books, all of them have been tinged with this stupidity. From Jean turning Bobby gay, to the absolute evisceration of She Hulk's character.

This isn't awful?

The comics are LITTERED WITH STUPIDITY like this. Fucking Batgirl basically joins Antifa in one of the recent comics.

This shit happened over the course of the last decade and only got worse and worse, so don't fucking try and play me like it hasn't. I've been reading comics my whole life, and this is the worst it's been in fucking decades.

 

[sol_bad]

Most of what youve listed here ranges from garbage to mediocre. Best runs my ass. Tom King's Batman has especially been garbage, and hated by most of the readership and long time batfans.

Immortal Hulk's been ok, and Superior Spider-Man was fun for its extremely short run time, and Otto's spinoff got cancelled in such a stupid way it soured the whole fucking thing.

There's a reason DC and Marvel have had so many firings and restructurings over the last 2 years. This shit isn't working and they've been bleeding fans for so damn long.



Either you haven't been paying attention, or you really don't read these books. The woke shit has been AWFUL and it's not some minority of books, all of them have been tinged with this stupidity. From Jean turning Bobby gay, to the absolute evisceration of She Hulk's character.

This isn't awful?

The comics are LITTERED WITH STUPIDITY like this. Fucking Batgirl basically joins Antifa in one of the recent comics.

This shit happened over the course of the last decade and only got worse and worse, so don't fucking try and play me like it hasn't. I've been reading comics my whole life, and this is the worst it's been in fucking decades.

Right, if you think all those books are garbage to mediocre you aren't much of a comic fan. The 90s were terrible, the 60s is mainly forgettable. The 70s was ok. So that leaves the 90s and 2000s.

So what do you consider to be good runs at a minimum?

 

[Hudo]

The big fucking irony is that most of the woke people (who are a very vocal minority; they're not as numerous as they like to appear) don't buy the games/comics/movies they love to hate on Twitter. Hating things is their hobby, their opportunity to get validation from other Twitters.

Companies and creators do best to entirely ignore Twitter altogether. If people don't like what you make, they can decide to not buy it. Simple as that.

 

[Dacon]

Right, if you think all those books are garbage to mediocre you aren't much of a comic fan.

You know what, coming from the likes of a consoomer like you I'll take that as a badge of fucking honor.

 

[Hudo]

You know what, coming from the likes of a consoomer like you I'll take that as a badge of fucking honor.

I somehow read your post in the Barret voice and it totally fits, lol.

 

[sol_bad]

You know what, coming from the likes of a consoomer like you I'll take that as a badge of fucking honor.

You ignored my question....

*EDIT*
And if you have read comics all you life it should be pretty easy to answer.

 

[Halo is Back]

As much as I enjoy the drinker's style, I do think there are valid reasons to criticize superhero culture. Does the world really need more people that aspire to slay dragons and look glamorous while doing it? Honestly here in The Netherlands there are huge shortages of teachers, of care workers, of tradespeople. There aren't huge shortages of people who want to be world famous soccer players, rappers, influencers etc etc. The real heros are IMHO people who put aside their vanity and help care for the elderly or mentally handicapped, for example. Or who help pick up garbage, fix the piping in your house or deliver your amazon order on time.

While you make a nice point, it's just entertainment dude. Nothing wrong with kids being attached to fictional super heroes.

 

[QSD]

That’s a wonderful anecdote. But I’ll give you a much larger scale example.

In 2017 a bunch of really stupid people on the right got together and had a rally called “Unite the Right”. They brought tiki torches and did a whole thing. It wasn’t a klan rally per se, but parts of it were definitely white supremacist in nature. The following day there were clashes between those guys and the counter protesters and some asshole ended up killing a woman with his car and hurting a bunch of other people. That rally was in one city almost 4 years ago. It still gets brought up as something terrible. The right largely disavows the entire thing. The president gave a fairly limp response and was castigated for years about it.

Contrast that with what happened in the US this summer. George Floyd dies in an ugly way, although he was definitely ODing on fentanyl when he died. Regardless he was not attended to correctly by the police and arguably abused when they held him down by the neck after he lost consciousness. Nationwide protests erupt. City blocks are torn apart. Stores are looted. Multiple people are killed just defending their property. This goes on for weeks in many places. No one from the left says a negative fucking word for weeks and weeks. News operations pretend it’s all peaceful or make excuses. After literally months of this, Joe Biden gives some mush-mouthed “all violence is bad” speech. Never calls out the responsible groups.

This is the difference. The right truly doesn’t have much tolerance for it’s insane aspects these days. The left either pretends theirs don’t exist or justifies them.

It's going to very difficult for me to do the complexity of the whole Floyd situation some justice, I think that might be better left to another thread. We watched that over here in The Netherlands with a growing sense of alarm. Perhaps what you perceive as condoning through inaction is actually genuine fear of further escalating what was already a near-civil-war type scenario, but it is hard for me to say anything because I'm over here in Europe and I don't know what it was like on the streets in the US.

But my main reason for commenting is not to convince you of some policy. It's more to say that it's extremely worrying to see every single thing be politicized and polarized into this left/right dichotomy. There are all kinds of reasons for discussing the impact of comic books (a lot of young people read them, and they carry a lot of implicit messaging about what it means to be a hero, what is 'good', what is the value of friendship and loyalty, what to do if you're an 'outsider' etc etc etc) and almost none of them fall neatly into a left/right political division.

It's pretty much insane to me that there are only 2 viable political parties in the US. I previously gave the example that Christian parties are a separate thing here in Holland, which kind of makes sense right? Since some stuff from the bible is kind of left-wing (care for the needy, sick, vunerable) and some other stuff right-wing (don't drink or do drugs, get married, family values). So yeah, it's just bizarre to me how every single thing gets dragged into this left/right hatefest. It's seriously worrying to see this constant us vs them mentality. I mean seriously.

While you make a nice point, it's just entertainment dude. Nothing wrong with kids being attached to fictional super heroes.

I appreciate the compliment. I do think kids need role models, but it's debatable whether current comic book heroes are always adequate role models. I don't think comics are "just entertainment". Tetris is 'just entertainment'. Comic books have the same function for kids now, as maybe the bible and the tales of king arthur had for kids in the middle ages. Granted there is more of an 'escapism/power fantasy' aspect to comics, but besides seeing the hero owning the bad guy there is always some kind of morality play being expressed.

 

[DeepBreath87]

It's going to very difficult for me to do the complexity of the whole Floyd situation some justice, I think that might be better left to another thread. We watched that over here in The Netherlands with a growing sense of alarm. Perhaps what you perceive as condoning through inaction is actually genuine fear of further escalating what was already a near-civil-war type scenario, but it is hard for me to say anything because I'm over here in Europe and I don't know what it was like on the streets in the US.

But my main reason for commenting is not to convince you of some policy. It's more to say that it's extremely worrying to see every single thing be politicized and polarized into this left/right dichotomy. There are all kinds of reasons for discussing the impact of comic books (a lot of young people read them, and they carry a lot of implicit messaging about what it means to be a hero, what is 'good', what is the value of friendship and loyalty, what to do if you're an 'outsider' etc etc etc) and almost none of them fall neatly into a left/right political division.

It's pretty much insane to me that there are only 2 viable political parties in the US. I previously gave the example that Christian parties are a separate thing here in Holland, which kind of makes sense right? Since some stuff from the bible is kind of left-wing (care for the needy, sick, vunerable) and some other stuff right-wing (don't drink or do drugs, get married, family values). So yeah, it's just bizarre to me how every single thing gets dragged into this left/right hatefest. It's seriously worrying to see this constant us vs them mentality. I mean seriously.



I appreciate the compliment. I do think kids need role models, but it's debatable whether current comic book heroes are always adequate role models. I don't think comics are "just entertainment". Tetris is 'just entertainment'. Comic books have the same function for kids now, as maybe the bible and the tales of king arthur had for kids in the middle ages. Granted there is more of an 'escapism/power fantasy' aspect to comics, but besides seeing the hero owning the bad guy there is always some kind of morality play being expressed.

I do hear what you’re saying. I do. But so much of a society is downstream of culture. There is a radical cultural shift taking place in the US. Statues of important people are being torn down. Names are being scrubbed off buildings. History is being altered for school age children. There is a concerted effort being made to move our culture and society away from some things many of us feel are foundational principles that make this a good place to live.

These are real things with real consequences. Yes, some comic book nonsense is nothing. But to me it fits into the wider degradation of the valves our society is built on.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Role models should be admired for their actions, not for their characteristics. This push for representation and role models for girls and minorities is sexist and racist. It implies people can only look up to, or identify with people who look similar to them.

 

[ZeroZeroQuatre]

As much as I enjoy the drinker's style, I do think there are valid reasons to criticize superhero culture. Does the world really need more people that aspire to slay dragons and look glamorous while doing it? Honestly here in The Netherlands there are huge shortages of teachers, of care workers, of tradespeople. There aren't huge shortages of people who want to be world famous soccer players, rappers, influencers etc etc. The real heros are IMHO people who put aside their vanity and help care for the elderly or mentally handicapped, for example. Or who help pick up garbage, fix the piping in your house or deliver your amazon order on time.

 

[QSD]

I do hear what you’re saying. I do. But so much of a society is downstream of culture. There is a radical cultural shift taking place in the US. Statues of important people are being torn down. Names are being scrubbed off buildings. History is being altered for school age children. There is a concerted effort being made to move our culture and society away from some things many of us feel are foundational principles that make this a good place to live.

These are real things with real consequences. Yes, some comic book nonsense is nothing. But to me it fits into the wider degradation of the valves our society is built on.

I'm generally not in favour of excessive statue-toppling but I do believe in that in some instances a case can be made (e.g. the first Spanish Conquistadores were really, really nasty pieces of work). But the point I'm making is that cultural issues, however fraught, aren't necessarily left/right issues. "The Left" is historically a labour movement, meant to protect workers' rights and health and form a bulwark against corporate power. In that sense the US democratic party isn't even left-wing, because they are hugely beholden to corporate interests, just like the republicans. I think it's dangerous to carelessly blame "the left" for all kinds of things when it's not even clear what that term is supposed to mean in the context of current US politics. The only thing it will mean in the end is "them, the others, the enemy"

OMG, this is gold, I've never seen this sketch before. Those fake american accents, lol and the part about international communism at the end is just the icing

Anyway, you sir, are a gentleman AND a scholar

 

[Darkmakaimura]

I think all these companies try to lose money through failure so they can have reduced taxes or something. Is there such thing, i'm not sure? And they figured, if they go woke, it will seem like they also "care" about people so this way they will make themselves look virtuous while saving tax money at the same time or something. Kill two birds with one stone.

I will not believe in a second that any corporation is so dumb to produce all these shitty woke products and think there is a big enough audience to be profitable. I will also not believe that any of these corporations prefer to be virtuous and caring instead of being profitable. There is no such thing, there was never such thing, corporations will ALWAYS try to make money no matter what. So there has to be something in these crazy dumb scenarios that will earn/save more money for them in the end.

You underestimate current society.

As the older conservative types are dying off, we (western society but I'm focusing on America as an American) are going further and further left.

People eat this shit up. Companies, but companies that are more focused on younger demographics, can afford to go woke because what's woke now is becoming more and more the norm.

It's sad but it is what it is.

 

[QSD]

You underestimate current society.

As the older conservative types are dying off, we (western society but I'm focusing on America as an American) are going further and further left.

People eat this shit up. Companies, but companies that are more focused on younger demographics, can afford to go woke because what's woke now is becoming more and more the norm.

It's sad but it is what it is.

Ok so maybe I'm hogging the thread here so I'll STFU if needed but this is like another example of what I was just trying to explain to DeepBreath87

Basically what you are lamenting here is that corporations will just follow the money, they don't have any other value system by which they might affirm or retain the cultural things you care about. This is, loosely described, also known as commodification. 'Normally' speaking this would be part of a left wing critique of consumerism/capitalism. That you believe that 'left-wing' policies are actually causing corporations to behave in this way is basically upside down to me, it's like an inverse clown world

 

[Darkmakaimura]

Ok so maybe I'm hogging the thread here so I'll STFU if needed but this is like another example of what I was just trying to explain to DeepBreath87

Basically what you are lamenting here is that corporations will just follow the money, they don't have any other value system by which they might affirm or retain the cultural things you care about. This is, loosely described, also known as commodification. 'Normally' speaking this would be part of a left wing critique of consumerism/capitalism. That you believe that 'left-wing' policies are actually causing corporations to behave in this way is basically upside down to me, it's like an inverse clown world

Yes.

There's a small handful that are legit. Like the MyPillow Mike Lindell dude is a sincere Trump man and Ben amd Jerry's are left-wing loons but to their credit, they're seemingly legit ones.

So yes. Yes to everything you said.

 

[lock2k]

Woke people, despite being retarded as fuck, are evil. The most politically correct people I know are villanous and have a lot of prejudice and preconceptions about others while the dark humor folks are always the kindest ones. People who want to portray themselves as good are always the worst. Actual good people just live their lives and don't bother virtue signaling.

 

[sol_bad]

Role models should be admired for their actions, not for their characteristics. This push for representation and role models for girls and minorities is sexist and racist. It implies people can only look up to, or identify with people who look similar to them.

How is it sexist and racist?
Comics have primarily contained white dude super heroes, obviously not all of them but the vast majority.
Introducing more diversity is racist?
How?

 

[Cato]

How is it sexist and racist?
Comics have primarily contained white dude super heroes, obviously not all of them but the vast majority.
Introducing more diversity is racist?
How?

The superhero books are not failing because lack of diversity. Heck, superhero comics have always had diversity and inclusion.
If you read them you would know that the X-mens leader is a black woman since like day one.

They are failing because if ALL you focus on is diversity and ignore everything else, like story, it just turns out to be shit.
Like Mags Vissagios books that sells in the high hundreds of copies. Not hundreds of thousands, but hundreds.
You can't build a meaningful business on that and that is why Marvel is in serious distress now and time has caught up with DC.
DC just recently fired all remaining editors (they are a publisher and they have no editors any more. Think about that. A publisher that no longer have any editors.).
The plan is that all publishing of books shall have ended in June at the latest.
(so it doesn't really matter. DC will have ceased all publishing of books well before this books planned publishing date.
I wouldn't worry about seeing it in any store.)

This is what get woke go broke means on an industry level. After years of abusing customers, calling them names and replacing a product there is an audience for with a product with no audience (super woke Mags books selling books in 3 digit numbers!)
meaning that the main publishing houses, DC and Marvel, are shutting down, and with it as a secondary effect, Diamond as a distributor and then all of the direct retail market.

What you are seeing now is a total collapse and destruction of an entire industry. Largely, but not only, due to a woke takeover.

 

[FunkMiller]

The superhero books are not failing because lack of diversity. Heck, superhero comics have always had diversity and inclusion.
If you read them you would know that the X-mens leader is a black woman since like day one.

They are failing because if ALL you focus on is diversity and ignore everything else, like story, it just turns out to be shit.
Like Mags Vissagios books that sells in the high hundreds of copies. Not hundreds of thousands, but hundreds.
You can't build a meaningful business on that and that is why Marvel is in serious distress now and time has caught up with DC.
DC just recently fired all remaining editors (they are a publisher and they have no editors any more. Think about that. A publisher that no longer have any editors.).
The plan is that all publishing of books shall have ended in June at the latest.
(so it doesn't really matter. DC will have ceased all publishing of books well before this books planned publishing date.
I wouldn't worry about seeing it in any store.)

This is what get woke go broke means on an industry level. After years of abusing customers, calling them names and replacing a product there is an audience for with a product with no audience (super woke Mags books selling books in 3 digit numbers!)
meaning that the main publishing houses, DC and Marvel, are shutting down, and with it as a secondary effect, Diamond as a distributor and then all of the direct retail market.

What you are seeing now is a total collapse and destruction of an entire industry. Largely, but not only, due to a woke takeover.

DC and Marvel have fallen into a trap that a lot of other companies are also falling into. Namely this:

The loudest voices represent the majority.

Social media has amplified the voices of the minority (on both the far left and the far right equally), distorting the perception of the actual cultural landscape completely.

Because, let’s be honest about this, the majority who read comic books are still young straight boys and men. If you want a successful business model you still have to appeal to them first, while also encouraging new characters and narratives that can appeal to a broader, more diverse demographic. Thus you expand your audience. This is how to run a successful media company.

You don’t remain successful by pissing off all those young straight boys and men by altering the existing characters they love, in order to appeal to the minority of your audience.

 

[sol_bad]

The superhero books are not failing because lack of diversity. Heck, superhero comics have always had diversity and inclusion.
If you read them you would know that the X-mens leader is a black woman since like day one.

They are failing because if ALL you focus on is diversity and ignore everything else, like story, it just turns out to be shit.
Like Mags Vissagios books that sells in the high hundreds of copies. Not hundreds of thousands, but hundreds.
You can't build a meaningful business on that and that is why Marvel is in serious distress now and time has caught up with DC.
DC just recently fired all remaining editors (they are a publisher and they have no editors any more. Think about that. A publisher that no longer have any editors.).
The plan is that all publishing of books shall have ended in June at the latest.
(so it doesn't really matter. DC will have ceased all publishing of books well before this books planned publishing date.
I wouldn't worry about seeing it in any store.)

This is what get woke go broke means on an industry level. After years of abusing customers, calling them names and replacing a product there is an audience for with a product with no audience (super woke Mags books selling books in 3 digit numbers!)
meaning that the main publishing houses, DC and Marvel, are shutting down, and with it as a secondary effect, Diamond as a distributor and then all of the direct retail market.

What you are seeing now is a total collapse and destruction of an entire industry. Largely, but not only, due to a woke takeover.

You aren't backing any of this up with facts.

The comic industry is generally growing year on year, with last year having the highest sales ever.

Comics and Graphic Novel Sales top $1.21B in 2019 — the biggest year ever

Comics and graphic novel sales were up in 2019 and had their biggest year ever in North America with more than $1.21 billion in sales.

www.comicsbeat.com

Not only was last year the industries biggest year but things are changing with how it should function. I highly doubt the industry will collapse but it will change. I don't think it can sustain to single floppy issues anymore and will move to a TPB/HC method.
Not only that but digital subscriptions are a thing, I personally don't buy single floppies anymore, I sub to Marvel Unlimited and buy my Image comics when they are deluxe hardcovers.

And all this talk about DC is just conjecture and rumors. yeah, they have failed a feck tonne of people but the world also experienced a pandemic.

And why even mention a single author like Mags Vissagios who only does single issues and mini series. She gets a chance to write what she wants, good for her. The businesses aren't built with authors like her in mind, she doesn't write the big triple AAA titles that the companies thrive on.

Can you please show me how Marvel are in "massive trouble"?

 

[Red Rackham's Revenge]

If you asked the most rabid SJW activists if they thought pop culture has an influence on how people live then they would say yes.

It does though. Otherwise there would be no point in propaganda. They might not always be very good at it, but you can't say they've totally failed when a couple of generations ago they would have been laughed at as weirdos.

Most people want to fit in, so when something becomes normalized even if someone doesn't like it they'll likely remain passive for fear of being exiled from the tribe. Eventually, this environment will create more and more "true believers".

 

[InterMusketeer]

How is it sexist and racist?
Comics have primarily contained white dude super heroes, obviously not all of them but the vast majority.
Introducing more diversity is racist?
How?

By turning Batman into an Asian man they're basically saying being white is his most important trait (it isn't) and that Asians can't identify with Batman because he's white (they totally can). That's why it's racist; It reduces people to their skin tone and treats women and minorities like they're stupid. Besides, heroes were always diverse. Just not diverse enough for certain extremists on twitter.

 

[sol_bad]

By turning Batman into an Asian man they're basically saying being white is his most important trait (it isn't) and that Asians can't identify with Batman because he's white (they totally can). That's why it's racist; It reduces people to their skin tone and treats women and minorities like they're stupid. Besides, heroes were always diverse. Just not diverse enough for certain extremists on twitter.

Gotham High is a short story one-shot teen drama. It's not replacing the cannon Bruce Wayne, it's an experiment, a "what if". There are no caped crusader adventures in that book from what I understand.

Gotham High is aimed at a different audience compared to cannon Batman. It isn't trying to replace cannon Batman.

When people whinge about this diversity stuff, I wish they would stop complaining about these alternate reality stories, it's not their primary business, it's a smaller sideline imprint.
I also wish people would stop hot taking with single page and/or panel scans from cannon books. A single panel or page? There are like 50ish books a month released by Marvel and 50ish books a month released by DC. Showing a single page or panel is not what the vast majority of the books are.

 

[pel1300]

After white women, Asian men like me are next on the woke chopping block.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Gotham High is a short story one-shot teen drama. It's not replacing the cannon Bruce Wayne, it's an experiment, a "what if". There are no caped crusader adventures in that book from what I understand.

That doesn't change a damn thing. The argument still stands: Bruce was turned into an Asian for superficial reasons.

Gotham High is aimed at a different audience compared to cannon Batman. It isn't trying to replace cannon Batman.

That doesn't matter. None of this matters.

I also wish people would stop hot taking with single page and/or panel scans from cannon books. A single panel or page? There are like 50ish books a month released by Marvel and 50ish books a month released by DC. Showing a single page or panel is not what the vast majority of the books are.

I don't even read comics. Don't care for them at all. I'm just reacting to the video posted in the OP. I only used Asian Batman since it's an example given in the video.

 

[sol_bad]

That doesn't change a damn thing. The argument still stands: Bruce was turned into an Asian for superficial reasons.


That doesn't matter. None of this matters.


I don't even read comics. Don't care for them at all. I'm just reacting to the video posted in the OP. I only used Asian Batman since it's an example given in the video.

You don't care about comics and have no understanding of the industry? You don't have much of a leg to stand on.

 

[InterMusketeer]

You don't care about comics and have no understanding of the industry? You don't have much of a leg to stand on.

I never claimed to be knowledgeable about comics. I simply watched the video and posted my thoughts on the issue, which can be applied to any type of hero character, be it from a fairytale, game, movie or comic. You haven't refuted my argument either. You explained the circumstances under which these books are released, and told me I'm not qualified to discuss the topic. It's like you're dancing around the issue.

 

[QSD]

DC and Marvel have fallen into a trap that a lot of other companies are also falling into. Namely this:

The loudest voices represent the majority.

Social media has amplified the voices of the minority (on both the far left and the far right equally), distorting the perception of the actual cultural landscape completely.

Because, let’s be honest about this, the majority who read comic books are still young straight boys and men. If you want a successful business model you still have to appeal to them first, while also encouraging new characters and narratives that can appeal to a broader, more diverse demographic. Thus you expand your audience. This is how to run a successful media company.

You don’t remain successful by pissing off all those young straight boys and men by altering the existing characters they love, in order to appeal to the minority of your audience.

That's just a risk reduction strategy. A comic book hero like Barman is more than just a character, it's a profitable formula. And because these kind of cultural things are intangible, nobody can give the exact ingredients of this formula. If they try to innovate a new formula, there's no guarantee that it will catch on. So in their eyes they're just trying to future-proof their most marketable properties.

 

[INC]

Disney

 

[sol_bad]

I never claimed to be knowledgeable about comics. I simply watched the video and posted my thoughts on the issue, which can be applied to any type of hero character, be it from a fairytale, game, movie or comic. You haven't refuted my argument either. You explained the circumstances under which these books are released, and told me I'm not qualified to discuss the topic. It's like you're dancing around the issue.

You can have an opinion on something you don't understand, that's fine. But the comic industry is and has always played around with it's characters and created alternate versions of them.

Whether it be Elsewords or What If or singular graphic novels it's been happening for decades.

I mean Ninja Batman came out and DC weren't criticised for that. They could have created a new actual Japanese character rather than use Batman and time travel.

 

[InterMusketeer]

You can have an opinion on something you don't understand

Let's leave it at that.

 

[Scotty W]

He is basically right but there is a problem with his argument. He said people have lost the original meaning of heroes.

But we have lost or obscured the original meaning of everything, so we cannot use that as a reason for preserving or destroying anything.

 

[Poké Maniac]

Perseus was slaying Medusa, it was the first ancient greek woke woman that annoyed people too much lol

Like i said before: If a new WAR breaks out... those WOKE people wont be the heroes fighting for their countries. They will just hide in their basement and hopes peace talks will succeed.

You must have just woken from a coma. The USA, where all these woke types came from, has been at war for decades. The "heroes" drone bombing farmers and arming terrorists in the middle-east come from all walks of life.

 

[Poké Maniac]

After white women, Asian men like me are next on the woke chopping block.

You're right. There's this propaganda angle the Americans are running with that Han Chinese men are raping Uyghur women. They are pushing for war and will lean on anti-Asian racism to get support for it. Targeting Asian women doesn't work because they are seen as sweet and docile.

 

[Soodanim]

So let me put it this way: I work in a home for people with psychiatric problems. It's 25% male 75% female because it's a caring profession. I'd say about 18 out of 20 people vote left wing*, which is what you'd expect in such a workplace. Despite this, just about nobody on our team cares much about political correctness. We go through a lot of intense stuff together (like fires, knife wielding psychotic people, suicides, you name it) and one of the ways to cope is black humor. Even my most stereotypically left wing (LBGTQ) colleagues participate in this and they don't hold back. There's one colleague who recently left, a guy, who, while otherwise decent, developed an interest in speech policing, but the girls basically just kept triggering him until he gave up.
Like, we sometimes watch the news together during evening break and if the woman that authored that comic would appear on tv in any kind of semi-representative capcity... hoo boy is all I can say

*it's pretty complicated in the netherlands, for example christian parties are seperate and hard to pin on "left or right" but this is extremely roughly speaking

So ehm yeah, just some on-the-scene reporting from your correspondent in clown world

The forum is largely American, and the culture there has been manipulated to have an extreme divide between right and left. No middle ground at all. Either that’s how it is in real life over there or that’s what the echo chamber of right-leaning members convince each other of here.

It also might be a culture thing in the sense that in Europe (and here in the UK) humour is different. Much more grey area for politics and ‘offensive’ humour.

 

[VN1X]

Why does this guy talk like he can't actually separate his lower jaw from his upper one?

 

[Jon Neu]

Most of what youve listed here ranges from garbage to mediocre. Best runs my ass. Tom King's Batman has especially been garbage, and hated by most of the readership and long time batfans.

Immortal Hulk's been ok, and Superior Spider-Man was fun for its extremely short run time, and Otto's spinoff got cancelled in such a stupid way it soured the whole fucking thing.

There's a reason DC and Marvel have had so many firings and restructurings over the last 2 years. This shit isn't working and they've been bleeding fans for so damn long.



Either you haven't been paying attention, or you really don't read these books. The woke shit has been AWFUL and it's not some minority of books, all of them have been tinged with this stupidity. From Jean turning Bobby gay, to the absolute evisceration of She Hulk's character.

This isn't awful?

The comics are LITTERED WITH STUPIDITY like this. Fucking Batgirl basically joins Antifa in one of the recent comics.

This shit happened over the course of the last decade and only got worse and worse, so don't fucking try and play me like it hasn't. I've been reading comics my whole life, and this is the worst it's been in fucking decades.

sol_bad is known for his woke apologism, don't waste your time trying to explain to him why wokeism infecting the comik book industry has only brought shit to it, he will just dance around it and call you a racist like every other woke apologist does.

B-bu-but why are you so concerned that Thor is now a female that fights again alt-right villains? You're a sexist!

 

[Ixiah]

Why does this guy talk like he can't actually separate his lower jaw from his upper one?

I think his persona is constantly drunk to endure this shit.
Btw what is the name of Starfire´s daughter, Dumpsterfire ?
On the other hand, you have to almost give credit to the Artist, no words but you can already feel the opinionated
Lectures, the constant comments about how wrong everyone is, the trans, fluid, black, Lebanese Girlfriend,
her struggle against the Patriarchy, who will be both all-powerfull and incompetent at the same time.....

 

[INC]

Why does this guy talk like he can't actually separate his lower jaw from his upper one?

The critical 'drinker'

Clues in the name

 

[VN1X]

Fucking annoying in any case and the main reason I never bother with his output. The same reason I will hurl when listening to people who have a lisp, I just can't stand speech Impediments I guess.

 

[INC]

Fucking annoying in any case and the main reason I never bother with his output. The same reason I will hurl when listening to people who have a lisp, I just can't stand speech Impediments I guess.

So Youre not a fan of the nolan batman films then? Lispy batman is the worst

 

[sol_bad]

sol_bad is known for his woke apologism, don't waste your time trying to explain to him why wokeism infecting the comik book industry has only brought shit to it, he will just dance around it and call you a racist like every other woke apologist does.

B-bu-but why are you so concerned that Thor is now a female that fights again alt-right villains? You're a sexist!

I can't help but say that that is an amazing contribution to the thread. Jane Foster Thor fighting alt-right villains? What drugs ya'll on?

 

[Jon Neu]

I can't help but say that that is an amazing contribution to the thread. Jane Foster Thor fighting alt-right villains? What drugs ya'll on?

 

[oagboghi2]

It's a well written rant. But ultimately, I don't think that SJW heroes really represent anyone but the small niche of writers themselves. The books aren't popular, and people aren't emulating SJW heroes. Most of these barely sell anything, and the whole comic book industry is almost dead. I'd look at what is actually popular for kids and teenagers first and then write an analysis of that. I honestly don't know what is popular with them these days - but it's probably mostly social media. Instead of emulating heroes, there is a growing narcissism and self-promotion. I don't think anyone even pays attention to this comic.

It's marvel movies.

Ignore the newer comic books, they are trash. The MCU is what young people are interested in

 

[oagboghi2]

As much as I enjoy the drinker's style, I do think there are valid reasons to criticize superhero culture. Does the world really need more people that aspire to slay dragons and look glamorous while doing it? Honestly here in The Netherlands there are huge shortages of teachers, of care workers, of tradespeople. There aren't huge shortages of people who want to be world famous soccer players, rappers, influencers etc etc. The real heros are IMHO people who put aside their vanity and help care for the elderly or mentally handicapped, for example. Or who help pick up garbage, fix the piping in your house or deliver your amazon order on time.

I wish that this were more true than it is. It only took like 5 (or maybe 4.5) dogshit transformers movies and 10 years before, very slowly, it started to dawn on some people that they actually need to write a story and have that story actually be about the transformers, rather than about some random hot chicks and explosions.

Video games have also been in this weird place for a long time where there are a lot of developers that spend insane amounts of money trying to get the best graphical fildelity and being 'immersive', trying to have their games be more like movies, while forgetting gameplay and innovation



LOL wait till you actually need to find someone to patiently teach your dyslexic kid how to read and write, and the only people that are available are a bunch of self-absorbed, jacked-as-fucked, spandex wearing, one-liner spouting asshats that are just looking for the next opportunity to look good while taking down a 400 foot alien monstrosity and that think teaching kids is 'beneath' them. ;-)

Where is this logic that having aspirational heroes means people won't want to do jobs like teaching? There is no connection.

People don't want to be teachers or tradesman because Spider-man exists?

 

[oagboghi2]

10 years? Please show me the sales numbers of these apparent YA comics from the past 10 years. As far as I am aware, this is a newish endeavor for DC. And no, Marvel and DC have not been "pandering" to the woke crowd for the last 10 years. For example, Kate Bishop was created back in 2004 and took on the name Hawkeye after Clint Barton died. Back in 2004 people were not calling Marvel woke, Marvel haven't changed in that respect (having female or other ethnic versions of characters), people have changed.

Marvel have actually made some of the best runs over the last 10 years.
Jason Aarons Thor
Matt Fractions Hawkeye
Jonathan Hickmans Fantastic Four
Jonathan Hickmans Avengers and New Avengers
Dan Slotts Superior Spider-Man
Ak Ewings current Immortal Hulk
Mark Waids Daredevil
Ed Brubaker Winter Soldier
Jason Aarons Wolverine and the X-Men
Rick Remenders Uncanny X-Force
Tom Kings Vision
Duggan and Posehns Deadpool
Ta-Nehesi Coates Black Panther
Kieron Gillens Journey into Mystery
Kieron Gillens Darth Vader

The last 10 years have been stacked by great books from Marvel. Yes they have had a lot of stinkers but they have nothing to do with wokeism, they are just bad books. The "woke" stuff is just middle ground, not great, not bad. Marvel don't even have a YA collection of books from what I know.

DC I'm not as well versed in but some of their New 52 and Rebirth books have been amazing.

Scott Snyders Batman
Tom Kings Batman
James Tynion IVs Detective Comics
Jeff lemires Animal Man
Scott Snyder and Charles souls Swamp Thing
Francis Manipuls The Flash
Geoff Johns Justice League

If you really care about comics and if you haven't read any of the above you should give them a shot.
There is so much out there discover other than what these negative nancy channels promote to try and make the industry look bad.

Most of the books you mentioned are bad, or average at best.

And you clearly didn't listen to anything Drinker said in the video. He wasn't reviewing the book. He was criticizing the cultural change that is affecting how comics are being written now.

This isn't the first time DC has tried this "young adult" approach, but the themes seem to be the same. Moving away from the traditional ideas of hero, and instead writing generic crap where the heroes aren't larger than life ir epic. They are small, petty and depressed. Much like the girl in this book is being introduced, and marketed as if it a good thing.

But of course you would defend this crap, becuase you are always a sycophant for what these companies release.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

Lol Sol is saying that 60s comics were “mainly forgettable”? Hahahah WHAT??? Not sure I can take any of his comments seriously what a bad fucking take hahahah

and he’s telling other people they are not much of a comic fan!!

hahah no shit he likes SJW crap, dude might as well be reading from the same gatekeeping elitist script. Old stuff is trash new stuff is good money proves this if you don’t agree you are an ist rinse repeat

 

[#Phonepunk#]

The idea that an artist should never consider his fans is entirely bullshit corporate speak wrapped around the tired “tortured artist” trope to defend talentless hacks shilling corporate media they had no real hand in creating in the first place.

Any artist must consider how their work will be received. These SJWs are lying when they say they don’t think about the audience, they do, but it’s just their own private audience of like minded people. Their woke bosses and the woke editors and the woke critics who will review their work and “validate it” (because without popular acceptance they have nothing to offer).

Storytellers of the past had to consider communities even whole societies but the new entitled hacks only care about their professional bona fides. It’s pretty much like saying what the king and his friends want to hear instead of the peasants. Right now SJW crap is the establishment line. Fuck off with all “but the artist” concern trolling. These people haven’t created an original thing in their pathetic lives that’s why they have to manipulate things others made. Like their social media feeds they have nothing new to say about the world and have settled for narcissistic virtue signalling and consumerist gatekeeping.

It all goes back to postmodernism, the lie that “everything has already been done” which let’s you off the hook from even trying. Because meanies before you did so good and your self image is so low you can’t see yourself as anything but a victim. Bunch of jealous losers nowadays imo.

 

[QSD]

The forum is largely American, and the culture there has been manipulated to have an extreme divide between right and left. No middle ground at all. Either that’s how it is in real life over there or that’s what the echo chamber of right-leaning members convince each other of here.

It also might be a culture thing in the sense that in Europe (and here in the UK) humour is different. Much more grey area for politics and ‘offensive’ humour.

Yeah I sort of understand that, I lurked for a long time here until lockdown loneliness got me to posting.
It's pretty crazy the way it seems that "left wing" has just come to mean 'evil', while a lot of problems that they talk about seem to me to be totally unrelated to the historical left-right political/economic divide. I mean you probably know as well as I do that if you go back 100 years in history, people on "the left" would be harbor workers, factory workers, nurses etc. Tough-minded, foul-mouthed, hard-drinking, smelly and probably not always pleasant to talk to. It's super ironic to me that these vulnerable, sheltered SJW types are now thought of as "left".

The point about cultural differences got me thinking... (I'm not gonna make a lot of friends writing this probably but screw it) When I was younger (80ies/90ies) the BIG negative cultural stereotype about Americans here in The Netherlands (maybe in the UK too?) was always that Americans are 'fake', i.e. more likely and willing on average to put on a socially desirable persona of optimism, enthusiasm, take-charge can-do attitude etc etc etc. Conversely a negative stereotype about Dutch people is that they are direct to the point of obnoxiousness. Brits are more polite and reserved than dutchies but have a huge tolerance in their culture for eccentricity and cynical humour. Either way I was wondering whether there has not always been a kind of tendency towards "virtue signalling" in american culture. While we here in Europe culturally have more avenues to express cynicism or negativity. That could explain why the woke ideology is so readily accepted in the US.

Where is this logic that having aspirational heroes means people won't want to do jobs like teaching? There is no connection.

People don't want to be teachers or tradesman because Spider-man exists?

I didn't say that having "aspirational heroes" is bad or undesirable, I said superheroes are not necessarily ideal aspirational figures. Insofar as people have super heroes as aspirational figures, they will try to "be like" them in some way. There isn't a lot of overlap between the daily life of a teacher and the daily life of Iron Man or Captain America. Iron man and Captain America are famous, universally admired and respected, have adventurous and dynamic lives, get to be their own bosses and defeat evil wherever it goes. The only 'evil' a teacher will likely confront in their daily existence is their own lack of patience and frustration with misbehaving kids. And they won't be admired or praised for defeating it, they just be severely castigated when they fail.