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[Ketch]

Why wouldn't he just wait until after you cast your E? like he does against literally every disable in the game.

E's down, time to kill everyone.

edit: look i'm not saying a silence isn't good against him, and again like before, arguing hypotheticals is pretty pointless. but to say "All you gotta do is ________" is weak. All you gotta do is polymorph him. All you gotta do is uther stun him. All you gotta do is taunt him.

He can be on any side of the fight he wants to be. The only thing your team can do is play waaaaay fuckin better then him and hope he doesn't get lucky anyway.

 

[brian!]

i mean why would you use your e besides for winning the game, if you get the godlike e and he comes in he's too late, if he e's in because you baited him with your burst heal he's fucked with or without your silence, if he e's in or pops w because he wants to do dome some dmg before he d/e's out while your e's up he's fucked, stukov legit makes his life miserable.

there's another hard counter for genji in valeera but she's not up to snuff in power in general because they over nerfed her

 

[Alur]

I don't think putting your E on a target and relying on that random teammate to play it correctly + the Genji to incorrectly play it is exactly reliable for most players. And prior to the E persisting, you're just sitting a duck doing nothing else while channeling it on top of needing those other things to line up for you.

 

[brian!]

You guys are giving way too much importance to genji waiting for his i can kill the whole team moment. Of course he can wreck your entire team. So can li ming and gmane with two low health targets. You can complain about how genji has an easier time executing than li ming, sure, that's valid if u want to focus on that. It really isn't the issue at hand how well killers can kill things. Seriously just consider all the ways stukov makes his life miserable.

Burst heal means he can be baited onto a low target
Aoe burst and dot in general limiting his opportunities
If he gets autoed once he gets like a 5th of his health chunked
If you tag him with w on his way out of harass your team can catch up to him easy
8 sec cd aoe silence (a lil more on this: e means he has to walk out, you can absolutely add that time to his real cc count, in practice his e is a mini-horrify to most and ppl who sit on it usually regret it. lingering e is really strong but you don't need it for genji because you can just channel that shit, the 13 just lets you do it when you're not in a good channel spot.)
Both ults counter his ult

Literally the only way for genji to have a happy engage is for his team to do all the work and him coming in to ks, that's a 4v5.

Genji's pros against stukov: can dive him and chase him down if he's alone or not near something

If you want to say the silence is hard to use, fine. But think about it this way. Malthael ults in and gets silenced. He cant q for heal/dmg which he relies on heavily whenever he goes in, like most ppl he has to pretend it's horrify because walking through it takes too long, his dot does pretty shitty damage with no q, the marks run out on good escape targets, hooray happy counter right? And it's really not much to ask for a stukov to put his e on an ulting malthael, you know what he who to get on, you know who he can w to, i really reject the idea that this is a difficult thing to do. You can pretty much substitute genji in for all of this. Genji relies like a motherfucker on using his skills correctly and stukov stops everything cold. All that's necessary here is to identify genji's moment and play accordingly. Like it's a good idea to stand next to uther when you're a squishy agaibst genji right? Stukov got u from downtown, dont worry about where you are standing as much.

This on top of being a support, meaning the rest of your comp can pick even more shit that makes him miserable. Before youd have, what, malf ult and root zone, tass shield, uther everything, bw w. Stukov fuks with genji in a major way with every single tool he has.

 

[TheSadRanger]

I came back to the game to try out Stukov in QM and as a support main I'm not really digging it.

As a solo healer he's awful, I'm always getting paired against tass/stukov teams with Valla.

It brings up the age old question of, "why are double support teams with valla allowed against single support with double spec"

The matchmaking in QM is just so fucking awful.....................

 

[scoobs]

I came back to the game to try out Stukov in QM and as a support main I'm not really digging it.

As a solo healer he's awful, I'm always getting paired against tass/stukov teams with Valla.

It brings up the age old question of, "why are double support teams with valla allowed against single support with double spec"

The matchmaking in QM is just so fucking awful.....................

 

[brian!]

He can be talented to be the best solo healer in the game but he's not crazy off the bat like uther

 

[Alur]

Yeah, I'd have to disagree there as well. He has the highest burst heal in the game I think when the Q is properly spread, even bigger than Uther's (non ult of course). It definitely takes a bit more work to get it done on him than, say, old school Rehgar, but you also have the nice disengage ult and the silence. If you're good (and sometimes lucky) with the W he can do pretty dece damage too.

re: closer's defense force on genji, I ain't comin' at ya boy. I'm not on the anti-Genji train like most GAFers.

I'm just saying I play at diamond level like a lot of people here and in my experience the outplay and strategic level you're talking about just doesn't happen. It's far easier to outplay as Genji in this scenario than it is as Stukov. The burden of execution is all on Stu because if shit goes haywire Genji can just peace out in most any scenario unless he's foolishly blown his load or eats back-to-back hard CC.

Now, I have indeed caught some Genji's with anticipating movement and putting them in the E long enough to get them slowed/stunned and or killed, but you're talking about it like it's as easy as using Elusive Brawler on Chen to shit on AA heroes or something. My experience and from what I've also watched on streams makes E more of a decent very short duration silence, an excellent zoning tool because most players just don't engage or will circle around it, or finally a hell of a follow-up mechanism if your team has other CC. If there is other CC and the timing is right, at that point it becomes a death sentence. That works for Genji or whoever for sure. The ability is a lot like Jaina's Blizzard (also Malf's root) to me. If it hits, it's money, and if it doesn't it's effective as a zone, but you usually need a second factor to contribute in order to get good value out of it beyond the zoning and brief silence and push into a full silence death trap.

The scenario you gave was more or less preemptively dropping E on a teammate as a Genji trap - and hoping your teammate doesn't just back away or move forward - is a little more than you can expect to have happen with randoms IMO. Like I can get where Stukov can grief Genji, but in normal play I don't think he's going to win that battle more often than not. Maybe once people learn to play him better, but even hitting Genji with the W or the ult push is hard af due to how slippery he is if you don't know his timings. That's not counting the slow spread silence.

 

[scoobs]

Alright, i'm mildly drunk right now but I think i found THE Xul build.

To start, here's a few things I'm sure of about new Xul:
-W build is hot fucking garbage, trap talents, stay away
-The Q quest at 4 isn't necessary to get amazing value out of the 13 Q talent, skip in favor of the Jailor talent for extra damage and sustain in combo w/ Trag'Ouls at level 7
-The Q talent at 13 is 100% of the time the correct choice and I won't hear otherwise. Its just better. Against bosses each Q does 1,000 damage at level 13 (making Xul an actual hero on maps where bosses matter, or where objectives require single target damage like GoT and BoE). In team fights its AoE burst at a safe range, and in combo with Bone Spear you can delete any squish hero.
-Skeletal Mages always. Period. Poison Nova is still trash because Xul can rarely ever get in melee range of anyone without getting focused down instantly.
-Skeletal Mages upgrade at 20 almost always. Mortal Wound the only other viable option at the tier against double support comps specifically. Kalan's Edict is hot frothy garbage.

Not sure it gets better than this (and its weird cuz its a mish-mash of two different builds but whatever)

 

[TheSadRanger]

He can be talented to be the best solo healer in the game but he's not crazy off the bat like uther

Yes but it's a healing character that's completely dependent on your team mates. This isn't Khara where you go "Okay my team is low and grouped, this is a good time to use W"

In lower ranks, if you have tanks that like to overextend who expect big heals than your going to have a bad time.

When I heal with Stukov it feels like its completely out of my hands on how effective I am.

Yes he can be the best solo "group healer" in the game but it's entirely on the team on how good he is.

 

[Alur]

I don't think that's the case at all. The Q isn't hard to spread. You can even ease it along yourself by being the go between to spread it to the backline, or what have you. If you've got a tank who dives into their backline with no support there's nothing you can do regardless of what healer you're on, to be honest. Maybe you give em a Divine Shield as Uther or Ancestral as Rehgar, but odds are you already lost that fight anyway having to blow that cooldown immediately.

-The Q talent at 13 is 100% of the time the correct choice and I won't hear otherwise.

 

[scoobs]

Give me a scenario where Xul gets more value out of auto attacking w/ Executioner or Cursed Strikes than a 1,000+ AoE nuke. I'll wait. Rapid Harvest is such a bad talent!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Infernal Shrines.

edit:NVM thought it was the lvl 4

 

[scoobs]

Infernal Shrines.

Clearing shrine minions? Xul does that with his base kit.

Not sure if this has been talked about, but Lords Of The Storm's podcast this week is FANTASTIC. They had the lead hero designer of Stukov on, and he talks about a lot of stuff but in particular it was really fascinating hearing Blizzard's approach to Supports moving forward (cleanse, balancing, etc)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Qs are ridiculously easy to dodge for the record. All 3 of them and the range isn't that great.

 

[scoobs]

Qs are ridiculously easy to dodge for the record. All 3 of them and the range isn't that great.

Nobody is used to it yet though, the 2nd wave of scythes is surprising people and in the madness of team fights nobody is dodging shit. Its really crazy how much damage you can do. Also there are ways to manipulate where the scythes travel. For instance, when you're being chased, the further you run from the initial throw, the narrower their path gets as they travel back to you, so whoever is chasing is guaranteed to get hit by all 3.

At 16 you can go for Amplify Damage to completely ruin a Muradin's day. Bone Prison + Q is absolutely deadly.

Idk, I'm drunk as hell right now and babbling like an idiot, but I'm excited about my results with him so far. He is so much more effective than before and that makes me happy! I've played 108 games on Xul since release, got his master skin two days after he came out and just love the guy but hes been so shit for so I'm just happy hes good is all.

 

[Dahbomb]

Give me a scenario where Xul gets more value out of auto attacking w/ Executioner or Cursed Strikes than a 1,000+ AoE nuke. I'll wait. Rapid Harvest is such a bad talent!

You get mercs much faster with W talents. Even if you have Q quest plus 13 talent, if you have talented W the mercs melt so fast if there are 3 or more of them.

W build also clears out minion ways faster. With the Q build you just send a nuke out, then you have to wait for the two scythes to spawn and come back. In that time the faster W would've wiped the wave without you needing to even spend the mana on the Q. Sure both of them clear minions efficiently.. but one does it faster.

If you are hitting two heroes then you can actually man fight through them. Faster attack speed plus healing means you are hitting hard + fast and healing for that amount. This makes it better when you get assaulted on versus the Q build where if you get assaulted on that's it. The W build actually makes you a Bruiser on the frontline. If the team wants a hero that can spam nukes from midrange then they can just pick that.

Plus there's the issue of the Q being much easier to evade.


I am not saying W is better. But there are scenarios where the W can be better as stated.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Nobody is used to it yet though, the 2nd wave of scythes is surprising people and in the madness of team fights nobody is dodging shit. Its really crazy how much damage you can do. Also there are ways to manipulate where the scythes travel. For instance, when you're being chased, the further you run from the initial throw, the narrower their path gets as they travel back to you, so whoever is chasing is guaranteed to get hit by all 3.

it can be manipulated but baseline you sidestep then move back and dodged all 3. 1.5 seconds is a huge window of time after an already delayed and projected medium range skillshot.

 

[scoobs]

it can be manipulated but baseline you sidestep then move back and dodged all 3. 1.5 seconds is a huge window of time after an already delayed and projected medium range skillshot.

Easy to say, not something people are doing at diamond level even. And not something most people would do in the midst of team fights either.

 

[Maledict]

It's funny but on THH they had exactly the opposite opinion. Q build was a trap build that was very easy to play around, whereas W build was killer in the right comp.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Easy to say, not something people are doing at diamond level even. And not something most people would do in the midst of team fights either.

It's fairly easy to do too. A single rotation takes 2.5 seconds not factoring in travel time.

I was able to lane effectivelz against xul with royal focus leoric

 

[Dahbomb]

The THH discussion on Xul for reference as it was brought up:

https://youtu.be/PmxBWRTb4SI?t=12m44s

 

[scoobs]

The THH discussion on Xul for reference as it was brought up:

https://youtu.be/PmxBWRTb4SI?t=12m44s

Ya I listen to all the HOTS podcasts and it's funny hearing that when that talent is far and away out performing others on the tier. Goes to show even the best players can't predict what will be good and vice versa.

If my build was getting shit win rates I'd shut my trap, but it's quite the opposite. Nothing seems to beat free (crazy) damage 😊

I'd go as far as saying it will be the first thing nerfed when Xul has a 60% win rate in a couple weeks

 

[Maledict]

I suspect the Q build is better in random matches, but that the pros will only pick him when the W build is viable.

The W build turns him into an absolute murderer of heavy melee comps (which you don't see much of in quick match or a lot of hero league). That was always intended to be his niche but it's never quite worked out.

 

[scoobs]

I suspect the Q build is better in random matches, but that the pros will only pick him when the W build is viable.

The W build turns him into an absolute murderer of heavy melee comps (which you don't see much of in quick match or a lot of hero league). That was always intended to be his niche but it's never quite worked out.

The problem with that is Xul is never safe to be in melee range. Bone armor gets melted in milliseconds, his sustain is pitiful, and he has no escape. The sustain talents just aren't good enough to warrant that kind of play style IMO

 

[natethegreat409]

I feel lurking arm needs a time or continously cost mana. The zoning potential is insane from my experience so far.

 

[brian!]

Yes but it's a healing character that's completely dependent on your team mates. This isn't Khara where you go "Okay my team is low and grouped, this is a good time to use W"

In lower ranks, if you have tanks that like to overextend who expect big heals than your going to have a bad time.

When I heal with Stukov it feels like its completely out of my hands on how effective I am.

Yes he can be the best solo "group healer" in the game but it's entirely on the team on how good he is.

Your teammates can ruin a heal but it's really on stukov in the end. If u q a bad target (like someone up front who is about to go in) id say it's on the stukov player + a lot of the spreading is in the stukov player's hands.

Yeah, I'd have to disagree there as well. He has the highest burst heal in the game I think when the Q is properly spread, even bigger than Uther's (non ult of course). It definitely takes a bit more work to get it done on him than, say, old school Rehgar, but you also have the nice disengage ult and the silence. If you're good (and sometimes lucky) with the W he can do pretty dece damage too.

re: closer's defense force on genji, I ain't comin' at ya boy. I'm not on the anti-Genji train like most GAFers.

I'm just saying I play at diamond level like a lot of people here and in my experience the outplay and strategic level you're talking about just doesn't happen. It's far easier to outplay as Genji in this scenario than it is as Stukov. The burden of execution is all on Stu because if shit goes haywire Genji can just peace out in most any scenario unless he's foolishly blown his load or eats back-to-back hard CC.

Now, I have indeed caught some Genji's with anticipating movement and putting them in the E long enough to get them slowed/stunned and or killed, but you're talking about it like it's as easy as using Elusive Brawler on Chen to shit on AA heroes or something. My experience and from what I've also watched on streams makes E more of a decent very short duration silence, an excellent zoning tool because most players just don't engage or will circle around it, or finally a hell of a follow-up mechanism if your team has other CC. If there is other CC and the timing is right, at that point it becomes a death sentence. That works for Genji or whoever for sure. The ability is a lot like Jaina's Blizzard (also Malf's root) to me. If it hits, it's money, and if it doesn't it's effective as a zone, but you usually need a second factor to contribute in order to get good value out of it beyond the zoning and brief silence and push into a full silence death trap.

The scenario you gave was more or less preemptively dropping E on a teammate as a Genji trap - and hoping your teammate doesn't just back away or move forward - is a little more than you can expect to have happen with randoms IMO. Like I can get where Stukov can grief Genji, but in normal play I don't think he's going to win that battle more often than not. Maybe once people learn to play him better, but even hitting Genji with the W or the ult push is hard af due to how slippery he is if you don't know his timings. That's not counting the slow spread silence.

Truthfully the correct way for genji to make an outplay is for him to put himself in danger and he is better at it in some cases than others. He can e in on a valla with impunity and outplay to win every trade for example. He will always be able to w a q on reaction blocking at least the latter hits. He can always w early and d out, either baiting valla w or leaving before she can hit him with it if she holds it. Her stun ult can be walked out of. The only thing he has to worry about is if someone can stop his skill rotation because valla will shit on him.

Therr are heroes that prevent him from doing this and id say that's a pretty big deal. The fact that he cant do any of that if valla is standing next to uther is a big deal; he's neutered! He either has to give up a priority target or do his best to make the outplay happen and the onus is really on him to make the latter happen because he is dead weight without the option.

Example i gave was purely for dragonblade. When he's touching stukov e he cant q, w, or e. This is absolute death for genji who often has to focus on someone, get the reset, and reposition with e. He loses all his mobility, dmg, and momentum, and he has to find a different target. I really am having a hard time seeing any major downside. Stukov can miss his e, genji can pop some mobility before e hits, and genji's teammates can cancel the stukov channel to allow him to get at that valla or whatever he wants to kill. But id def assert that the genji in the midst of the enemy getting silenced is in more danger than the stukov rooted in the back channeling silence.

I dont think e needs to ever be preemptive unless it's for zoning. It's used like hammer ult, you always place it in the most effective spot to squeeze out value. So like if a sonya q'd in youd want to place it to cancel whirlwind and affect her on her retreat (if you want to keep her in) or affect further aggression (if you want to keep her back). I understand what yall are saying about execution but im just saying...dude has an 8 sec cd aoe silence that has a secondary effect of being a mini-horrify or 2 sec root. The skill absolutely is something that changes the flow of a game for a genji player.

 

[Ketch]

Alright, i'm mildly drunk right now but I think i found THE Xul build.

(and its weird cuz its a mish-mash of two different builds but whatever)

It's not weird cus it's a mishmash

It's bad cus it's a mishmash

The lvl 13 q on its own is essentially recommending KTs lvl 20 infinite chain bomb talent as the 100% go to. You're just hoping to get random aoe damage that's lucky enough to kill something.

Burst damage is king and E + vulnerability + executioner is a dead hero. Dude even just E vulnerability + an untalented Q does more burst damage then the three scythes shenanigans.

 

[DTC]

scoobs is speaking the truth. That level 13 Q talent is actually insane. It's so easy to hit on a rooted target and they take 1,000 damage from one ability. It can be pretty hard to hit non rooted targets with the extra Q's, but if nothing else, it makes your PVE even more scary than it already is.

Although I do think the level 4 W talent is better than jailors, but I haven't actually tested it enough yet so I'm not totally confident in this assertion.

 

[brian!]

i mean if you're going to all-in on a melee skill that gives you sustain you might as well get the talent that gives you more of that
plus the cdr is additive so with the atspd talent (works on minions too!) you're looking at a pretty reduced cd and a lot more heals too

id tentative put him tier a/b atm he's pretty strong. he still wants to fight inside waves tho and he still should mainly be picked if you need clear and lane pressure

 

[Ketch]

Therr are heroes that prevent him from doing this and id say that's a pretty big deal. The fact that he cant do any of that if valla is standing next to uther is a big deal; he's neutered! He either has to give up a priority target or do his best to make the outplay happen and the onus is really on him to make the latter happen because he is dead weight without the option.

This has not been my experience. What is uther gonna do? Heal the valla? That's still a won trade for me. Walk up and stun me? lol maybe if I lagf. It is seriously too easy for the genji. The only heroes I'm afraid of as genji are diablo and varian and if they're in the game I can still contribute pretty well with Q build.

I dont think e needs to ever be preemptive unless it's for zoning. It's used like hammer ult, you always place it in the most effective spot to squeeze out value. So like if a sonya q'd in youd want to place it to cancel whirlwind and affect her on her retreat (if you want to keep her in) or affect further aggression (if you want to keep her back).

yep, and as soon as you do that genji has free rain on your team. And if you hold it for genji how do you stop Sonya? I understand that silence is bad for genji but you're suggesting that this one new ability suddenly counters him so hard is off the mark. I'd say that stukov is not much better then malf at countering genji. If the genji is bad you can body him. Cross your fingers and hope he's bad I guess.

 

[Milly79]

scoobs is speaking the truth. That level 13 Q talent is actually insane. It's so easy to hit on a rooted target and they take 1,000 damage from one ability. It can be pretty hard to hit non rooted targets with the extra Q's, but if nothing else, it makes your PVE even more scary than it already is.

Although I do think the level 4 W talent is better than jailors, but I haven't actually tested it enough yet so I'm not totally confident in this assertion.

Scoobs alt confirmed

 

[brian!]

w/r/t uther, it means genji cant hit an e, a shingan, use w, use d, like seriously he cant go near a valla standing next to an uther and get any shit done. like you are legit arguing the case of assassin vs. support, if the support prevents everything from the assassin that is a hard counter! if a genji has to wait for all of your cds that's a hard counter! it's like saying bw w isn't good against illidan, like no shit he can wait for w, he can escape if he isn't dead after polymorph, but that's on the team that's supposed to kill him!

the sonya example was to illustrate how to place e, not for some hypothetical sonya/genji comp (strong as fuk tho), but i mean ill bite, just fucking w sonya and she cant do shit

the conversation around genji is entering nova/valeera territory with the whole oh look I gave them everything they want and they shit on me, pls nerf hard

and w/r/t stukov vs. genji, my whole point is that it is an awful matchup for genji to be against a hero who can stop everything he does with every single move in his kit. we're not talking about genji finding someone low and e'ing them, this won't ever be possible without either proper positioning or an e range nerf, we're talking about stopping genji from rolling

 

[Ketch]

w/r/t uther, it means genji cant hit an e, a shingan, use w, use d, like seriously he cant go near a valla standing next to an uther and get any shit done. like you are legit arguing the case of assassin vs. support, if the support prevents everything from the assassin that is a hard counter! if a genji has to wait for all of your cds that's a hard counter! it's like saying bw w isn't good against illidan, like no shit he can wait for w, he can escape if he isn't dead after polymorph, but that's on the team that's supposed to kill him!

the sonya example was to illustrate how to place e, not for some hypothetical sonya/genji comp (strong as fuk tho), but i mean ill bite, just fucking w sonya and she cant do shit

the conversation around genji is entering nova/valeera territory with the whole oh look I gave them everything they want and they shit on me, pls nerf hard

and w/r/t stukov vs. genji, my whole point is that it is an awful matchup for genji to be against a hero who can stop everything he does with every single move in his kit. we're not talking about genji finding someone low and e'ing them, we're talking about stopping genji from rolling

It's actually not nova/Valera territory because those heroes are bad. This is kt/li Ming territory with the whole "they're fine! Just X them! Just don't get hit by their abilities, and they're not even that good."

The uther genji match up is not awful match up for genji. It's just the best case scenario for uther team, but you should probably still pick/ban genji. Because no, Uther is not the answer.



Genji being related to nova/Valera on any level is some serious miscalculation

 

[brian!]

like check out this tribute phase and look at what options glau has to fight here: https://youtu.be/eJ-5vNY7D9A?t=15m33s

the genji/nova/valeera comparison is fine imo, it's heroes who's problems are exacerbated due to ppls anecdotal experience. no one wants to sit with their group so nova/valeera cant kill them for free, so they want nova/valeera to be neutered. it's the same with genji

yes you should still pick/ban genji, yes genji should be nerfed, yes in the r20/tf series they decided they didnt need to ban genji 4/5 games, and yes uther/stukov are very good against genji. if the whole time you were arguing that genji is still a good hero and first pickable that's an argument to tone down genji, not an argument based on his interactions with uther/stukov. if you are asserting that genji doesnt give a fuck about those heroes and that they are non-presences then I just disagree

another example from the same game: https://youtu.be/eJ-5vNY7D9A?t=18m2s
the proper thing here to do is for glau not to go in because he'll die; that is, if freedom didn't clump, if they didn't have the right draft, glau is within his rights to kill the entire team, they're low and that's genji's shit. but because of how they drafted he can't do shit! it's a counter! of course if it were qm genji has the opportunity to outplay and kill everything, id certainly go for it. but again, that's not an argument about the heroes, that's an argument about the players

same game: https://youtu.be/eJ-5vNY7D9A?t=21m44s

 

[Ketch]

Not that they're not non presences. They are present

But they certainly don't "counter genji hard" in any universe, or hard counter him, or prevent him from doing everything he wants.

There's currently no hard counter to genji, stuckov included. Diablo and varian are the best tools. But they still can't do it on their own.


Edit: brah you just linked a video of literally the best team in NA with a lvl lead and a "proper anti genji draft" retreating all the way to their fort even though they were 5v2. Hard countered.


All you gotta do is be team freedom with multiple hard CCs and then play perfectly.

 

[brian!]

then there are no hard counters to illidan or sonya, the list goes on
it's like saying you cant stun sonya whirlwind

like check out the links i posted above, glau literally cant do anything that he wants to do

Edit: brah you just linked a video of literally the best team in NA with a lvl lead and a "proper anti genji draft" retreating all the way to their fort even though they were 5v2. Hard countered.


All you gotta do is be team freedom with multiple hard CCs and then play perfectly.

i dunno which specific clip you are referring to but this is what is happening in each clip
1. tribute fight, even levels. glau is zoned out due to proper positioning (uther placement) and stitches/dehaka prevent followup to genji engage so no resets.
2. tf is baiting to get boss value. they disengage like they want, show glau something juicy, he feeds due to proper play.
3. again, proper positioning, genji cant get near uther at all

you are legit still arguing that genji is a strong hero and because the burden of execution is on the other team he has no counter. the examples you gave of counters are all point and click stuns + ppl who can chain cc by themselves, but characters who have other priorities than being a genji sentry. but that is legit all a support needs to do, prevent the damage on their team from being dove on and uther/stukov are the best at that.

anudda one: https://youtu.be/eJ-5vNY7D9A?t=23m22s

here's genji taking advantage of split focus: https://youtu.be/eJ-5vNY7D9A?t=24m50s, this is an example of everything going right for him. abathur clone exactly when the engage starts. early stitches ult. glau gets on the other side with his e and tychus freaks out and starts shooting him even though mura is free. kure goes all-in on muradin by himself. this is good play from genji and bad play from tf

 

[Ketch]

you are legit still arguing that genji is a strong hero and because the burden of execution is on the other team he has no counter. the examples you gave of counters are all point and click stuns + ppl who can chain cc by themselves, but characters who have other priorities than being a genji sentry. but that is legit all a support needs to do, prevent the damage on their team from being dove on and uther/stukov are the best at that.

and you have legit back pedaled from stukov counters genji hard to posting videos of pro teams executing exceptionally well.

this is the argument that i've made since the beginning. in order to "counter" genji your team needs to execute exceptionally well and/or genji has to fuck up. And that's not actually a "counter". That's the problem. It is the same shit that we've experienced with li ming. and it's not the same problem that nova/valeera were.

As a solo player there's not a hero that you can pick and begin to safely think that the enemy genji isn't going to be a problem. like I said before your best options are to pick point and click hard disables + also cross your fingers that your team isn't potato. Actually, your best bet is to pick/ban genji.

"stukov hard counters genji" is not true. full stop.

Stukov does not hard counter genji.

stukov is another tool that can be used against genji sure, but that is a universal statement. stukov is another tool that can be used against any hero in the game.

 

[brian!]

im not backpedalling, im addressing the idea that uther does not hard counter genji

if i had pro footage of stukov id post that too, all i have is this sick play from an unknown handsome player: https://clips.twitch.tv/AgileArtsyTardigradeDoritosChip
i dont think tf play exceptionally well in this situation, i feel like they have great room to improve and that eu teams would execute a lot more cleanly, all i think they did was sit together and not be dumb; they identified how they needed to play those situations and did their best

if we're talking about a difference in semantics, then it is what it is. imo a team can (hard) counter illidan even though the burden of execution is on them. i dont deny for a second that the team trying to stop illidan/genji has more pressure on them or that both of these heroes are exceptionally strong. if you're taking issue with my choice of words, I'll just stop using the phrase; what I mean when I say hard counter is basically "picks that will not only make you feel sad about your pick but fuck up your entire gameplan".

like id say with bw's ms and cc she hard counters illidan even though she doesn't kill him
and i think stukov's interaction with genji is similar to bw's interaction with illidan because............every single skill fucks him up

 

[Ketch]

Maybe it is semantics?

cus here it sounds like what you're saying is that Stukov is a good pick vs Genji?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Stukov a good pick vs just about any hero right now?

So what you're actually saying is: Stukov is a good hero.


That's a much different statement then: Stukov counters the shit out of genji.

when you say hero counters the shit out of another hero, I think of something like butcher vs medic. or Lunara vs old uther.

 

[brian!]

stukov is specifically good against genji like bw/uther is good against illidan is what im saying
so like, looking at the tf vs. r20 game, you can see how uther completely denies genji. i am making the assertion that stukov does this too

when stukov/uther are on the board genji is kanye asking for more oooooptions

using ur examples:
imo the lunara/uther interaction is overblown. lunara is good against uther but it's nowhere near a situation where she can shut him down, his healing is subpar against her and it's hard to land e's on her, that's it
butcher vs. medic is the same interaction with him any squishy, except butcher does have a hard time killing off a target getting medic healed.

the interaction between uther/stukov and genji is more akin to their interaction with butcher. butcher has to go in the do stuff. if he e's in it's very easy to react with either hero (some trivia, butcher is not unstoppable during the end part of his e), you throw stukov e/w on him, uther stun/dshield/storm, plenty of ways to stop him from throwing out his ult in time. this is legitimately the same thing they do to genji, he e's in with blade and they stop him. except with stukov he doesnt even need to stand with his squishies!

 

[Ketch]

I would argue that stukov/uther a pretty good vs just about anybody in the cast. So they're not anti genji, they're just really good heroes.

and we can go around and around I guess.

when stukov/uther are on the board everybody is kanye

 

[Dahbomb]

I can say for sure that when I am playing Genji the only three heroes heroes I am worried about are Uther (due to burst negation and easy stun), Stukov (heroic to counter my heroic, silence and heal on team) and Varian (taunt means I die).

I pretty much always ban out Stukov though so then it's a matter of also banning/picking Uther/Varian to prevent the picks from other side.

I do for sure think that Genji is one of the hardest heroes to counter in the game and thus is a safe first pick.

 

[Milly79]

Just the weekly GAF go around

 

[kirblar]

Genji's E going through terrain is really, really stupid and lowers his skill floor below where it needs to be.

 

[brian!]

I would argue that stukov/uther a pretty good vs just about anybody in the cast. So they're not anti genji, they're just really good heroes.

and we can go around and around I guess.

when stukov/uther are on the board everybody is kanye

Ok so i dont disagree that both are generally strong but think about it this way. Stukov vs. raynor compared to stukov vs. genji. The interactions are completely different! Stukov specifically fucks with genji in ways that's not possible with raynor. Im saying that stukov is exceptional against genji (who relies on skills being up, on diving the enemy team, and outplaying) the way bw is exceptional against illidan (who relies on getting autos, timing his e, and dodging stuff with w/q). Both directly prevent them from doing what they want to do!

 

[Ketch]

does silence prevent raynor passive heal?


also, more buther trivial. he's not immune during the very beginning of charge either. Like he growls, takes like 2 steps and then becomes unstoppable.


oh god. RIP dignitas

 

[brian!]

Itd be pretty dumb if it did, raynor doesnt deserve that

It does stop sappers from activating though lol

 

[Alur]

Did Dig lose again or something?

 

[scoobs]

It's not weird cus it's a mishmash

It's bad cus it's a mishmash

The lvl 13 q on its own is essentially recommending KTs lvl 20 infinite chain bomb talent as the 100% go to. You're just hoping to get random aoe damage that's lucky enough to kill something.

Burst damage is king and E + vulnerability + executioner is a dead hero. Dude even just E vulnerability + an untalented Q does more burst damage then the three scythes shenanigans.

So when you say it's "bad" do you mean "I think it's bad" or "I've played it and it's bad"? Cuz it's the top win rate build by a quarter mile. I feel like you haven't played it. It's crazy