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Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds

brian!

Member
I still dislike mines but a lot of that is aesthetic. Outside of Warhead Junction, it's the drabbest map in the game. It's better now for sure but I do feel like the golems really vacillate between being damn near useless to absolute juggernauts simply depending on your team comp and your enemy's, and that's not even counting Sylvanas. Like you can crush it in skulls but if you don't have great siege and the opponent has great damage, they just melt it and you get very little or vice versa. It's one map objective that is very contingent on outside factors unlike the other maps. I don't like that it's like that since I primarily play QM (as do most people based on the metrics we have which may account for it's lack of popularity).

I do agree w/ you about old mines being useful for teaching, though. On one of the HOTS podcasts they discussed that a while back. We really don't have a great map for teaching timings that is adhered to like that one was.

Yeah not just timing imo but also just in general better decision making. Even stuff like checking if ppl are about to ambush at the door! You cant get ppl not to facecheck bushes but somehow they were able to not get rocked at the door after the first few times. But yeah it's def still the map where you silent scream when your team pavlov dog enters the mines when they hear the announcer, it's lows are def still one of the lowest.


Woops i dbl posted by accident, too in the zone
 

scoobs

Member
Twitch thing seems lame to me. I'd much rather just buy stuff in the store... why do they have to make it so difficult to buy what I want in this game?
 

Alur

Member
There is just no reason ever to push a payload early on since it puts you behind. It gives no exp and forts give you two shots and exp. A fort snowballs the game for you automatically.

Don't forget that the payloads do give EXP now when you cap them. Though that just makes it even easier for winning team to snowball IMO.

Twitch thing seems lame to me. I'd much rather just buy stuff in the store... why do they have to make it so difficult to buy what I want in this game?

I would imagine they will. No real reason not to unless Twitch hooked em with some exclusive thing. I'm hopeful they are just doing this in this way to boost Clash viewership since the first half of the season has been so poor.
 

brian!

Member
Don't forget that the payloads do give EXP now when you cap them. Though that just makes it even easier for winning team to snowball IMO.

Had no idea, that's a big deal depending on the amount of exp. It's good to have a material reward for pushing the payload.
 

Altairre

Member
So I played my first game with Xul and it didn't go so well. To be fair, I should have gone with the q build because poke would have been more useful than having to go into melee range against that team. We still won though so that's okay. Thanks to Prelude's Tracer for carrying this undead weight.
 

Maledict

Member
So I played my first game with Xul and it didn't go so well. To be fair, I should have gone with the q build because poke would have been more useful than having to go into melee range against that team. We still won though so that's okay. Thanks to Prelude's Tracer for carrying this undead weight.

The only Q talent I take in a 'Q' build is the one at 13. Jailor has a much higher win rate than the Q cooldown at 4 from what I remember.
 

Ketch

Member
I dislike monetizing cheers. It's a lame system to begin with and incentivizing it further is just more lame imho. Wish it didn't exist.
 

Ketch

Member
Im actually not familiar with it's new changes beyond removing sappers but w/r/t the older version:

Optimal is either 4man or 5man, with fort as primary objective. Getting a fort nullifies any payload advantage, gives exp advantage, gives map advantage (sentry camp, no well for future payload spawns), etc. A payload can be stopped/delayed by one person.

The only reasons to push a payload are:
You can soak at the same time
You have lvl/talent advantage and can devote minimal resources to the push (like 1 on it while 4 stall their team)
It's a crucial take (wins the game or puts them at risk of losing next payload/boss)

There is just no reason ever to push a payload early on since it puts you behind. It gives no exp and forts give you two shots and exp. A fort snowballs the game for you automatically.

Yea I hate that map. You know what's not fun? 4 or 5 man death pushing a single lane. It's like all mid except it's the correct thing to do.
 

Altairre

Member
The only Q talent I take in a 'Q' build is the one at 13. Jailor has a much higher win rate than the Q cooldown at 4 from what I remember.

I know but I don't think I got a lot of value out of Jailor in that particular game. Guess I should have listened to scoobs after all.
 

scoobs

Member
I know but I don't think I got a lot of value out of Jailor in that particular game. Guess I should have listened to scoobs after all.
My man

Go on Ketch, remind everyone how bad Q talents are for new Xul 👎🏻 *cough 60% win rate talent cough*
 

scoobs

Member
Yea you're right. Should probably listen to scoobs over dunk train and bakery. I mean he has stats, stats never lie.
Dunk admitted he was wrong on his stream, how long are you gonna hold out?

And just so we are clear, you don't trust hotslogs? Or you just don't trust it on this one talent for some reason? What is the point of denying the power of an obviously strong talent? I feel like you just don't want to admit I'm right, which is funny
 

Ketch

Member
Me hold out? I'm not the one calling the talent mandatory.

And it's not about trusting hots logs. Stats don't make something powerful... or weak for that matter. you know that.

Until we see it as the mandatory talent in hgc. And even then I'll be skeptical


I'll agree with you when you say something I agree with.
 

kirblar

Member
Jake Kulinski‏ @SolidJakeGG 39s40 seconds ago

Brand recognition in-game is essential for esports teams. I'm glad Heroes is finally catching up, but afraid some brands are gone forever
...... oh come on Jake. (I suspect the responses to this may get vicious.)
 

Maledict

Member
...... oh come on Jake. (I suspect the responses to this may get vicious.)

That is such a ridiculously negative comment. For someone trying to make a living doing this stuff, he's being incredibly stupid about it. And justifying Blizzard's decision to not hire him constantly
 
I'm often reminded that pro players are still young (even though they are just a few years younger than me0 by their language. The players I like are generally the ones that are most reserved with their language, for instance I can't recall a single time Bakery called someone a Monkey while there's a myriad of people in hots that do and worse. Couple days ago Equinox called some mongoloids...
 

scoobs

Member
And it's not about trusting hots logs. Stats don't make something powerful... or weak for that matter. you know that.

No, they just tell us which talents are the best. Factually the best, because people win with them more than other talents. That's what best means. Statistics, science, math are not subjective things. Its not an opinion.
 

Milly79

Member
I'm often reminded that pro players are still young (even though they are just a few years younger than me0 by their language. The players I like are generally the ones that are most reserved with their language, for instance I can't recall a single time Bakery called someone a Monkey while there's a myriad of people in hots that do and worse. Couple days ago Equinox called some mongoloids...

Have you ever been in a pubg lobby?

It's worse than league.
 
No, they just tell us which talents are the best. Factually the best, because people win with them more than other talents. That's what best means.
WE've discussed the value of stats considerably in this thread just looking at hotslogs Butcher is the best hero in the game apparently while Genji needs buffs.

and while we are at it, jailor has a 60% winrate too and executioneer is barely a few percent points behind.
Have you ever been in a pubg lobby?

It's worse than league.
nah but that's toxicity within a small group towards each other. Pros might not have considerable outreach but they are still the exemplary players the game has.
 

scoobs

Member
And my build included Jailors, because its clearly the best talent in the tier. 10 days ago I was drunk and playing new Xul for the first time and posted this
 
looking across the whole tree Q at 13 barely sticks out wrt winrate, Xul is just winning a bunch overall with tons of talents with a near 60% winrate.

You should be pointing to the popularity scoobs.
 

scoobs

Member
looking across the whole tree Q at 13 barely sticks out wrt winrate, Xul is just winning a bunch overall with tons of talents with a near 60% winrate.

You should be pointing to the popularity scoobs.
Not a ton at that tier near 60, which is the point. Xul is crazy strong, I said he'd get nerfed, I also said the Q talent at 13 is the clear best, and stats have proven me right. It's not statiscally insignificant after two weeks of ~60% win rate at the 13 tier. If it was a bad talent it would not be winning at that rate, and if it's just Xul being too strong, the other talents would also be 60% win rate. But they aren't, because they're not as strong. That doesn't mean the other talents are bad, it means Q is better.
 

Maledict

Member
So this is why people are not playing this game. I go into quick match to practice Uther.

My team - Dehaka, Nova, Chromie, Murky, Uther

Their team: Stitches, Tyrael, Nazeebo, Zul'Jin, Uther.

I mean, that's just so fucking ridiculous I'm embarrassed on Blizzards behalf. Anyone who thinks that a game that creates *that* as a random match is working well needs their head examining.
 

brian!

Member
No, they just tell us which talents are the best. Factually the best, because people win with them more than other talents. That's what best means. Statistics, science, math are not subjective things. Its not an opinion.

Nooo this is the problem ppl always run into with hotslogs. The percentage you are seeing is "what is winning and what is losing right now" not "what is strong and what is weak". You can use stats to help make a case for the latter. But you cant say that 42% (or whatever) winrate makes genji a bad hero. Or that high winrate on a talent makes it the best talent. There is 0 substance in saying any of those things. Statistics are very subjective (statistics studies grapple with this like crazy, proper methodology, unbiased interpretation, and so on. Statistics are exploited like crazy in marketing for example). But the bottom line is that something doing well is tied much more to player performance than the hero itself, and that the game doesnt play itself. So something can garner a high wr due to ease of use (and indeed be the best pick for the majority of players) and something flat out better can have a lower wr due to needing a more...grace?

There are so many stats necesary beyond winrate to "prove" hero or talent superiority. Matchups, other talents picked, enemy talents picked, mmr, how the talent is used (cleanse with the low winrate lmao), and so on. Winrate can be an incredibly useful tool, but ppl need to remember that it is a snapshot of wins and losses and provides very little context.
 
Not a ton at that tier near 60, which is the point. Xul is crazy strong, I said he'd get nerfed, I also said the Q talent at 13 is the clear best, and stats have proven me right. It's not statiscally insignificant after two weeks of ~60% win rate at the 13 tier. If it was a bad talent it would not be winning at that rate, and if it's just Xul being too strong, the other talents would also be 60% win rate. But they aren't, because they're not as strong.
There is just 3 talents on that tier and executioner is just 3% lower in winrate, apart from lvl 1 and 20 it's the lowest delta between the 2 most winningest talents.
 

scoobs

Member
There is just 3 talents on that tier and executioner is just 3% lower in winrate, apart from lvl 1 and 20 it's the lowest delta between the 2 most winningest talents.
Which is why I also said it doesn't mean the others are bad (although the W talents are bad). Executioner is good on any hero that still has it.
 
So this is why people are not playing this game. I go into quick match to practice Uther.

My team - Dehaka, Nova, Chromie, Murky, Uther

Their team: Stitches, Tyrael, Nazeebo, Zul'Jin, Uther.

I mean, that's just so fucking ridiculous I'm embarrassed on Blizzards behalf. Anyone who thinks that a game that creates *that* as a random match is working well needs their head examining.

What is wrong with that result? It's not 3 specialists vs 4 assassins. You actually have a tank on both sides, support on both sides, specialists on both sides, assassins on both sides....
 
I wonder if its because Im no longer playing on a potato with less than 60 fps at a lower than 1080p resolution but I've been winning like 60% of my matches.
Which is why I also said it doesn't mean the others are bad (although the W talents are bad). Executioner is good on any hero that still has it.

stats imo do not point to Q at 13 being the clear best. It's the best performing talent at that tier right now no doubt though.
 

scoobs

Member
Why is X Strike so terrible? Just watched Grubby use it, and in the middle of 4 enemies, he X Strikes and hits no one, because the lines went the wrong way lol. Shouldnt you be able to control that? I don't understand how that ult works, it seems so random unless you land directly on top of someone (which is very rare because of the wind up)
 

brian!

Member
I havent played xul or played against one that took q 13 but

Three things id suggest about the wr of his 13 q to take into consideration: 1. It doesnt require that he's in melee range, 2. It's fire and forget, and 3. It provides zoning.

The use of the lvl 13 w talent is to proc more heals and to ensure the cdr talent, swiping your opponent more doesnt really do much imo. Since it procs on everything it makes him the fastest infernal shrines clearer. I have no idea whether the q 13 competes with it, but if it did id prob take it instead.

W/r/t w 13 i feel like it's a kind of malthaelish decision; your main consideration is whether you can outsustain in a fight. It's not a bad gameplan for xul who can drop a lot of important cds before he goes into melee range and after his cds are done; it's very valuable to have him be a target in a fight instead of standing on the outside waiting to get q value again. At the same time, this is a very team dependent build because the only thing xul has to keep ppl melee is his e and ult, and that's comp dependent and in general unreliable (plenty of ways for the cast to get around both). He needs ppl to cc the ppl he wants to hit to get value out of this build.

Ive never seen q 13 but one of the more important things to consider is whether it's dodgeable or not. The winrate at least trends towards showing that ppl arent great at it, but that's less relevant than the idea that ppl are able or unable to if you are talking about talents and the way xul does stuff. If his stuff is consistantly dodgeable with practice then it's main value is for clear(?), zoning, and burst damage on cc'd targets (do they all hit on a target that's not moving?). That's not bad at all, plus he relies less on being in melee range. But there are def comps where xul being in the shit is pretty important and w certainly holds more value in those instances.

Not really a clear cut pick one way or the other imo.
 

Maledict

Member
What is wrong with that result? It's not 3 specialists vs 4 assassins. You actually have a tank on both sides, support on both sides, specialists on both sides, assassins on both sides....

Um, because the team I'm on literally has 2 bodies for team fights. It's totally impossible to win a team fight. Also, Nazeepo isn't a specialist in the actual game mechanics, he's an assassin to the core. Whereas Murky (who did his best bless him) is absolutley a specialist.

It's an utterly garbage, non-viable team with zero presence versus a team you could happily draft.
 

Maledict

Member
Also, what's up with Sonya et al in the quick match rules? I'm now seeing her in a team where the only other melee on the enemy team is Alarak? That's can't be right surely? I thought it was bruiser versus bruiser?
 

brian!

Member
I dunno if they match bruisers, like i always got the sense it was more of a "we'll try our best to find another of the same class but we arent really worried about it" type of deal. Compared to healers and whatever they are calling the medivh abathur tyrande contingent where they always try to match
 

Altairre

Member
Also, what's up with Sonya et al in the quick match rules? I'm now seeing her in a team where the only other melee on the enemy team is Alarak? That's can't be right surely? I thought it was bruiser versus bruiser?

Nope, that shit has been broken for a while now. Still see it from time to time and I really don't know why. Those matches are always terrible.
 
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