WonderRade
Member
the more i play zul'jin, the more i like his W build, both ults are fine
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
scoobs
Member
Dingo is just too good at turning teamfights. You get dove on and look like an easy kill, and suddenly you are unkillable and instantly delete 1 or 2 assassins and completely flip the fight on its head.
Dingo also has the extra benefit of making ZJ a core destroyer at level 20. The Dingo upgrade is insane. Start attacking core with berserker rage on > dingo at low HP > heal to full > core is dead.
I do think that Guillotine/W build is super fun, but I do not believe its as good as the standard AA build. Deleting someone with Guillotine never gets old.
Dingo also has the extra benefit of making ZJ a core destroyer at level 20. The Dingo upgrade is insane. Start attacking core with berserker rage on > dingo at low HP > heal to full > core is dead.
I do think that Guillotine/W build is super fun, but I do not believe its as good as the standard AA build. Deleting someone with Guillotine never gets old.
jaundicejuice
Member
If you have 30k you have no reason not to buy Zul'Jin.
Orochinagis
Member
Best build for Sondius?
I usually go for the Canon quest then go full Pylons
I usually go for the Canon quest then go full Pylons
There isn't much HL data to go on, but QM data with nearly 7k games suggests that all of his builds are nearly identical in winrate...which I guess you could take as a good sign or a bad one. I'd consider it a bad one.
To me it says that no matter what you do you can't make him much better.
The only talents that significantly change his winrate are Pylon Overcharge at 10, Shield Battery at 13, and Quantum Entanglement/Gravity Well at 16. The rest are all very close to each other despite different pick rates. Even the Turbo Charged talent at 4, which appears like a no brainer, doesn't do much for his winrate (and in the few HL games we have to go on it actually has a considerably worse winrate).
TheSadRanger
Banned
Been running into chromie a lot lately brehs, bad times 
The Blizz Q&A comments regarding Probius are a bit baffling to me. They seem convinced they designed him properly despite nearly universal complaints about him thematically and then also balance wise. First there is this:
To echo a reddit comment, why make a hero whose sole purpose in it's original game is to build shit...when you know there's no room for them to do the one thing people expect them to do? I have enjoyed playing him, but the number of complaints about his HOTS reality vs the fantasy of playing the character are pretty astronomical. If you're up against the wall design wise with builders/spawners due to technical limitations or saturation or whatever, why try to force another out half baked?
It'd be like introducing motherfucking Onyxia and making her do poison damage because there are too many fire abliities in HOTS already.
Then there are comments like this:
I think we all knew where this was heading after a couple of games on the PTR. Certainly we already know at this point midweek.
In fact, in most scenarios (there are a few exceptions, Greymane being a notable one) the greater HOTS population figures out what's good about a hero, if anything, in a matter of days. When you consider that with how insanely quick they were to buff Zarya through the roof, a comment like the above really chafes to me. Maybe because of Zarya they are hesitant to do anything like that again, but I feel they have certainly been far quicker in recognizing issues with heroes but don't seem to be too concerned yet about what players dislike about Probius.
BlizzAZJackson said:
To echo a reddit comment, why make a hero whose sole purpose in it's original game is to build shit...when you know there's no room for them to do the one thing people expect them to do? I have enjoyed playing him, but the number of complaints about his HOTS reality vs the fantasy of playing the character are pretty astronomical. If you're up against the wall design wise with builders/spawners due to technical limitations or saturation or whatever, why try to force another out half baked?
It'd be like introducing motherfucking Onyxia and making her do poison damage because there are too many fire abliities in HOTS already.
Then there are comments like this:
BlizzAZJackson said:
I think we all knew where this was heading after a couple of games on the PTR. Certainly we already know at this point midweek.
In fact, in most scenarios (there are a few exceptions, Greymane being a notable one) the greater HOTS population figures out what's good about a hero, if anything, in a matter of days. When you consider that with how insanely quick they were to buff Zarya through the roof, a comment like the above really chafes to me. Maybe because of Zarya they are hesitant to do anything like that again, but I feel they have certainly been far quicker in recognizing issues with heroes but don't seem to be too concerned yet about what players dislike about Probius.
scoobs
Member
I don't think there's anything wrong with certain heroes not being viable at the highest levels of competitive play. If Probius ends up that way then so be it, he's still fun to play and totally fine at almost all other levels of play.
Reminds me of people begging for Murky to be viable.. Blizzard does it and we couldn't even go one week before everyone was ready for massive murky nerfs.
Reminds me of people begging for Murky to be viable.. Blizzard does it and we couldn't even go one week before everyone was ready for massive murky nerfs.
I don't think it has much to do with viability in competitive play. Not sure how we arrived at that from what I posted unless your point is that they are hesitant to make a move because of the potential for that to happen. Maybe so. For me, though, its simply about an undercooked kit, apparently intentional, that neither met expectation thematically nor the normal levels of baseline power.
Heroes like Gaz and Murky are toxic if they are broken, yes, and perhaps Probius could be as well if he were broken enough to be played at a high level...but that's an issue for if/when it happens. Right now the issue is figuring out how to make him work a little better. Whether it's more durable structures, charges on structures, a stronger cannon, whatever. He clearly needs some tweaks.
The other point re: builders stands for me, however. If you've already had concerns about their proliferation, why introduce another? You could have not, as no one expected it anyway, or you could have made Gazlowe less turret reliant in his rework you put out in the same patch. Wouldn't Gaz with one turret and Probius with many make more sense anyway?
Heroes like Gaz and Murky are toxic if they are broken, yes, and perhaps Probius could be as well if he were broken enough to be played at a high level...but that's an issue for if/when it happens. Right now the issue is figuring out how to make him work a little better. Whether it's more durable structures, charges on structures, a stronger cannon, whatever. He clearly needs some tweaks.
The other point re: builders stands for me, however. If you've already had concerns about their proliferation, why introduce another? You could have not, as no one expected it anyway, or you could have made Gazlowe less turret reliant in his rework you put out in the same patch. Wouldn't Gaz with one turret and Probius with many make more sense anyway?
scoobs
Member
So do you think his kit is just bad, and can't be fixed by buffs? We know buffs are coming, I'm really not worried about him or any other underpowered hero because blizzard is quick to buff underperforming heroes, particularly new ones. I think his kit is fun and as a "builder" he's wayyyy different than Gazlowe which is what I was worried about the most. I wouldn't even really call him much of a builder, his turret is barely 20% of his power I'd say. He's really more of a combo mage, which is dope.
Idk I guess I'm just not worried about Probius, I love his design and if he continues to underperform he will get buffs to offset it.
MVP Black embarrassing these Chinese teams, their Zul'Jin just put up 80,000 hero damage in an 11 minute game on Braxis....
Idk I guess I'm just not worried about Probius, I love his design and if he continues to underperform he will get buffs to offset it.
MVP Black embarrassing these Chinese teams, their Zul'Jin just put up 80,000 hero damage in an 11 minute game on Braxis....
Because the low level players love them (and me too!)
new hero looks kinda interesting but been saving my Gold for that new Troll hero zul'jin. At least I own Valeera (spent gold on her). need to keep up with these Brawls better. So much easier to accumulate gold nowadays and I love all the nice new skins the game has. PRevious to Brawls only way to really get good gold was do the daily quests which never clicked with me. Those quests always forced me to play classes I just wasn't in the mood to play
Found this useful website: https://heroespatchnotes.com
Falstad is so good. He's like the jack of all trades that can still specialize. Great damage, utility, and flexibility. Hard to counter(zera can do it) while also hard and soft countering a lot of stuff himself. Never a bad first pick, and often stays in the draft for good 4/5th picks as well.
TheSadRanger
Banned
I love him as well. Magestad is my absolute favorite still. It's still good but boy could you do some stupid damage before gathering storm got nerfed from 2.5 to 1.5 and they nerfed the dmg on the detonate for BOOMerang.
I was nearly always averaging at least 100k dmg with that build. I can still get around 75-80k now but it used to be such a beast.
I was nearly always averaging at least 100k dmg with that build. I can still get around 75-80k now but it used to be such a beast.
Flanking w/ falstad is pretty legit sometimes, you put the fear of gust to them and you can always reset with your e. His w is kind of a mixed bag, the dmg adds up but 2 things: 1. You do it too early and at too close to max range ppl will always walk out and 2. it's often not enough to ensure the solo kill and might bait you too close (falstad vs. valla for example, she wins the all-in usually). Falstad is a great kiter tho, the best scenarios for his w usually involve kiting a tank or something for me
KevMan1815
Member
The only thing in common with all your games, is you. Just sayin'.
Yeah, the boomerang choice for the AA mode makes a big difference. It seems like the wrong talent compared to the distance talent which increases his auto attack damage. But it gives him good wave clear, which is what he needs to build stacks and split soak. Pure AA builds don't have good wave ability, and it makes a big difference.
scoobs
Member
Thats why I said I suck. I've fully admitted i suck with Falstad already. But this is every game right now. I think Falstad is kind of just shit in quick match too... too many assassins to blow him up with his super low health pool. Much better hero in drafts I feel.
KevMan1815
Member
Just giving you a hard time. Nice turn around that match it looks like.
For once I can humble brag but I have a good win rate with him in quick match ( 70%/24 matches). I do agree he can be quickly blown up but he's so versatile and can control engagements much better than most heroes with his gust. He's actually pretty good in quick match because he has three viable builds according to the situation.
No. And whether you're worried about them or not, this is a discussion forum for discussing things about the game.
I know he will get buffs eventually, but "they need more data" to see he is bad is some outright bullshit given how quick they've been on the trigger with other heroes, or in other cases how quickly they've publicly acknowledged issues in power level/kits/specific abilities. Their comments yesterday were just like "nah we did the right thing, we'll see in a few weeks". We can clearly see where there are deficiencies. I do, however, think his kit is bad versus what he should be thematically, as nearly everyone has commented, and you say yourself right here...
Again, why introduce a build specific hero and make his buildings of paper mache was my point. Why not just make a different hero a "combo mage" and wait until you can do the building fantasy justice? Would make more sense to me. They just kind of round peg squared holed this one. I have already said multiple times that I enjoy him, and I didn't play any Starcraft so the lack of building isn't as big a deal to me as it is others, but it clearly bothers a lot of people and they are just putting their heads in the sand about it meanwhile they just reworked Gazlowe and could have solved some of that problem in the same patch. That, plus the "need more data", was the point of my post last night.
scoobs
Member
I'm confused, am I not discussing the game in that post? I feel like you weirdly attack me with every post you make, it hurts my feelings.
Lost yet another game on Falstad boys, the experiment has not gone well this morning. Cho'Gall on my team died 8 times. RIP me.
I feel like you are pretty dismissive of most everyone's complaints or concerns about specific heroes or the game in general. You're not worried and they'll fix it, sure, but in the meantime can we talk about it without you glossing over it like you're trying to move along a debate?
Myself and have others have posted repeatedly on what we see as Probius' issues and ideas to fix him, as well as the stuff about his presentation. "They'll fix it" is nice and all, and we know he will get buffs, but that won't address the second part more than likely and why they inexplicably decided to go down this particular road with this hero instead of waiting, or giving some semblance of this kit to another character in the lore.
scoobs
Member
I'm not trying to move anything along, im stating my opinion. Clearly not allowed in Mr Alur's domain. I'll just mute you and move on with my life, i really dont need to deal with you, and vice versa. Better for both of us probably.
What opinion? "Don't worry about it guys"? If you're gonna quote and respond to someone, give some reasoning at least besides "they'll buff it". If we were in here just shitposting on the game like people did in the past, sure, I get it, I've done that in the past myself. This isn't that, though. It's not the first time you've done this, it's a pretty common occurrence.
If you don't think he needs buffs, that's fine too. But IIRC, you have at least said you think he needs work, so why do we need to not discuss what that work might be or what those issues are?
If you don't think he needs buffs, that's fine too. But IIRC, you have at least said you think he needs work, so why do we need to not discuss what that work might be or what those issues are?
I always rationalized it when i saw it as pro level being too difficult to stack q on certain maps, but boomerang really is just a good talent in general. Seasoned is def the more reliable talent tho, when i think about the build they use it just makes sense
Forgot to mention this but this is a really good find. Thanks brian!
As long as you're learning it's fine. If you're just rage queueing, maybe stop for a little bit.
When we were discussing Zeeb changes a while back I found this thing trying to see his old trait. Pretty neat but don't think many know about it. Surprised we've never seen it on the frontpage of the reddit given how many questions it can answer.
We all know Alurs down for role playing. Thread sheriff.
I can never tell when you're being facetious or serious no matter how long I've known you, but in this scenario I think you've got the identity of the thread sheriff wrong.
Idk you're dead so I don't think you're doing it right