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Hillary Clinton publishing book about 2016 election in Sept titled "What Happened"
- Thread starter johnsmith
- Start date
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
You can believe something. Doesn't mean it's true.
Elections are about winning, not being "right". Should a politician refuse to say "God bless America" because God is not real and if he/she were then God wouldn't favor a single nation anyway? It would be "right", but it would be dumb and hurt their chances to win. Obviously there's a balance to be found between winning and selling your soul, but was it so important to call a huge portion of the country deplorable that it was worth the reputation hit to do so (particularly as that was a distraction during a time when the media was rightfully tearing Trump apart).
We have, by far, the worst president in the last 100 years, and probably the worst in the history of the US now due to her loss. She had what seemed like an incredible advantage and fought against an opponent who made blunder after blunder (mocked POWs/showed a lack of intellect, tact, professionalism/mocked the disabled/caught on tape being incredibly sexist, etc...).
The fact that she lost that election makes it fairly natural that some people will be upset with her about her mistakes and blunders (which were real and noted by others as they happened, not just manufactured retroactively). Misogyny certainly plays a role in how some perceive of her, and likely played a role in her loss, but the idea that any critique of her or her choices is misogynistic in nature is such an overreach that it's hard to even take seriously.
McCain was seen as an underdog candidate and trailed in the polls for much of the election cycle. Hillary was seen as someone who would have an easy stroll into the White House with polling indicating a 99% chance of victory and the preeminent pollster at the time promising to eat a bug if Trump won, etc.. The two are not really comparable at all.
I don't hate Hillary. I wish she had made better choices so that she'd be president, not Trump. The idea that people who would rather have Hillary as president are raging misogynists is a bit silly considering they wanted Hillary, not Trump as president.
To blame her for 'losing' the election ignores the fundamental principle of democracy: that the leaders don't get to choose whose next. Voters do.
No one is going to deny that Hillary could have done more, least of all Hillary herself. Elections aren't a individual skill dependent sport. It's an appeal contest. And that means success is significantly dependent on how much the audience allows themselves to be appealed.
The truth is that for a significant portion of the Americans, there is literally nothing Hillary could have done because all they heard about from their news sources is EMAILS, BENGHAZI, PIZZA PROSTITUTION RING, and other bullshit like that.
So that's why I find arguments that anyone else would have won to fall flat. Trump is a moron, but so are apparently half of America, and they have fallen for the most transparent conjob in the world. After all, he did beat all 16 other republican candidates, every one of them the better qualified person regardless of their considerable shittiness.
Even with all of Hillary's faults, there is no way a sane, conscionable person could have chosen trump over her. So that means that half of america are neither sane nor conscionable. And that means there isn't really a clear answer of how to counter what Trump has become. It's not about creating a better candidate who is more qualified or even tactful than Hillary. It's about finding one who can somehow outperform his celebrity reality TV show persona.
No one is going to deny that Hillary could have done more, least of all Hillary herself. Elections aren't a individual skill dependent sport. It's an appeal contest. And that means success is significantly dependent on how much the audience allows themselves to be appealed.
The truth is that for a significant portion of the Americans, there is literally nothing Hillary could have done because all they heard about from their news sources is EMAILS, BENGHAZI, PIZZA PROSTITUTION RING, and other bullshit like that.
So that's why I find arguments that anyone else would have won to fall flat. Trump is a moron, but so are apparently half of America, and they have fallen for the most transparent conjob in the world. After all, he did beat all 16 other republican candidates, every one of them the better qualified person regardless of their considerable shittiness.
Even with all of Hillary's faults, there is no way a sane, conscionable person could have chosen trump over her. So that means that half of america are neither sane nor conscionable. And that means there isn't really a clear answer of how to counter what Trump has become. It's not about creating a better candidate who is more qualified or even tactful than Hillary. It's about finding one who can somehow outperform his celebrity reality TV show persona.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
I came to post something similar.
You forgot the chapters on racism and sexism though.
Resident_UA
Member
Theonik
Member
Or maybe, just a thought, nobody owes their vote to the Democrat party and it is actually their fault for running a bad campaign.
Krauser Kat
Member
If this is true hillary that we heard about when she talked in private i am so down for this. She is probably blunt and angry in this, i hope she is. If its a woe is me book, naw im good.
That's quite a bold assumption based on nothing.
freeofgreed
Member
I highly doubt that. Anyone who was pushed away by her deplorable comment wasn't going to vote for her regardless.
minor effort
Banned
My point wasn't that Hillary was a perfect, flawless, or even great candidate. And her campaign and campaign management has been proven to have spectacularly dropped the ball. Not in dispute on this.
But there's a certain "atone for your sins and exile yourself to the sea, lady" bitterness whenever Hillary's name surfaces that Al Gore and John Kerry weren't experiencing eight months after their losses, despite both of them being relatively uncharismatic politicians in their own right. People just sort of moved on, forgot about them (to an extent) and looked forward. It's just part of this general inability to get over a shit primary and shit election.
Hillary made a lot of mistakes, her campaign made a lot of mistakes, and I hope she addresses them honestly in this book. But 2016 was a historically weird election for a number of reasons and she has a basic right to talk about it.
And I've said multiple times on this forum that I think Hillary should keep out of involving herself in Democratic party politics going forward for their own mutual benefit, but she doesn't need to hide in a cave until the sun dies out.
crooked spin
Member
Imagine the cornballs crying in this thread defending Sarah Palin with this fervor. :lol
BassForever
Member
Ask yourself how Trump would have handled 9/11 if he was president when it happened.
Because the people gore, kerry, mccain, and romney lost to weren't horribly inept at the job they were elected to. Trump's disgusting comments and actions make headlines everywhere. Social media has also grown a ton even in the 8 years since McCain lost (Nobody expected Romeny to win). 2008 how many people had a smart phone? 2016 how many people DON'T have a smart phone?
Orniletter
Banned
No, all everyone remembers is Clinton's objectively true statement that Trump's voters are "in the basket of deplorables".
The sheer gall of those """"moderate"""" """"centrists""".
Gunblade47
Neo Member
I'd read it. Would find it facinating to see how establishment politics ultimately lost to a man that fed of the worst of human characteristics.
Whether it will be insightful I cant rightly say at this point. But historical lessons should be taken from the election that made an orange reality tv star into "the leader of the free world".
Im a Sanders supporter but now is the time to learn what we can. Not mock others in the liberal movement.
Whether it will be insightful I cant rightly say at this point. But historical lessons should be taken from the election that made an orange reality tv star into "the leader of the free world".
Im a Sanders supporter but now is the time to learn what we can. Not mock others in the liberal movement.
DR2K
Banned
We're not dealing with anything even as a collective. We can read a book just fine.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
You're delusional.
The fact she's a woman is irrelevant. The fact people keep pushing that her gender is the reason people hate, is in itself sexist.
Stop making this about gender. She fucked up a sure thing.
Resident_UA
Member
It could be false. Anything is possible. But I can't come up with a single reason why Hillary is hated. She is one of the most qualified presidential nominees in recent history. Sure her campaign was kinda shit, but she isn't the only one to blame for shitty campaign.
the republican party banned transgender soldiers from serving in the military literally yesterdayI came to post something similar.
You forgot the chapters on racism and sexism though.
Skellig Gra
Member
You just gave a reason. Her campaign was "kinda shit". How many billions of dollars did she have to campaign with? There is no excuse for running a bad campaign. Woman or man.
This is what the book should say:
"I tried to appeal to moderate republicans who didn't vote for me, and that turned off my base who I took for granted, this made an election that should have been a blow out a close election but I was going to win anyway until comey and Russians tilted the last 1% difference. "
This is what the book is going to say:
"I tried to appeal to moderate republicans who didn't vote for me, and that turned off my base who I took for granted, this made an election that should have been a blow out a close election but I was going to win anyway until comey and Russians tilted the last 1% difference. "
This is what the book is going to say:
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Read your sentences back to back lol.
Resident_UA
Member
How did she fuck up? Was she the only person running her campaign? That's what I don't get. Why is she to blame for everything?
I mean that's a start
She was hated by the right because she is a well known Democrat in the public eye for decades, and is now hated by the left because SHE LOST TO DONALD FUCKING TRUMP. What is so fucking hard to understand about this?
Father_Brain
Banned
should be subtitled "Why Everyone But Me And My Campaign Is To Blame"
Gee, I can't imagine why someone using "Democrat Party" would want to encourage the narrative that people should vote for people other than Dems even w a man like Trump on the ballot.
Resident_UA
Member
BotoxAgent
Member
horrible horrible campaign. She basically gave Trump free reign on the media cycle. When Trump seemed like he was backed against the corner, she did nothing but left the beltway pundits talk about it and not seize it for her own opportunity. Absolutely no fire coming out of her campaign.
She's a smart woman and a constant workhorse, but she sucks at the media game.
She's a smart woman and a constant workhorse, but she sucks at the media game.
Trojita
Rapid Response Threadmaker
Either Clinton was the most qualified person in recent history to be President or she has the inability to control her own campaign.
Maiden Voyage
Gold™ Member
What does that have to do with what I posted?
D
Deleted member 231381
Unconfirmed Member
People were pretty pissed off at Mook when he arranged that speaking tour, too. Let me see if I can find the thread.
I like that you're trying to narrow it down comically to just one criteria and that criteria is lives lost. Sure, I suppose I might actually care more about the amount of lives lost, especially since that count is absolutely fucking massive, but that's just me... The guy told a mess of lies and completely and utterly fucked a massive section of the world for decades and decades to come based on those lies. The middle east will not be the same for a long while because of Bush. He ignored warnings about Osama bin Laden. He created Guantanamo Bay. The economy utterly fucking crashed on Bush's watch. His administration utterly botched Hurricane Katrina. The NSA powers came from Bush. He ramped up the war on drugs.
He did all that and so much more. But sure, I guess he was "bi-partisan" sometimes.
SafeinSound
Member
"Damn."
You are right, but I get the feeling you're talking to fanatics here.
It's really sad to see people in this thread still blind to it all. Fanaticism on both sides. Politics.
Skellig Gra
Member
What a cop out. She is ultimately responsible for her campaign. She had complete control over her staff. If she chose people poorly that is still her fault.
FunkyMunkey
Banned
LOL yeah blame her instead of the actual deplorable pieces of shit who voted for trump
your attitude is one of the reasons we partially deserve trump as a country
Trump has that on his own since the primaries because CNN and other orgs wouldn't take their eyes off him.
Al Gore and John Kerry lost to someone who a) had held political office before and b) was son of the former president, with the entire GOP machine behind him.
Hillary Clinton lost to someone who:
- had never run for political office of any kind
- had no public sector experience of any kind
- was an open xenophobe and obvious sexist
- spoke at a grade school level
- was a billionaire tax dodger in a time when the middle class is shrinking and services are being cut
- had only a part of the Republican Party backing him
- spent half as much money on his campaign
Her fuckup was worse than Gore's or Kerry's. The fact that she continues to be vilified has far more to do with the colossal scale of her failure than it does with her gender.
freeofgreed
Member
You're making an extremely reductive argument. It's like speaking to a child. Just because I think Trump is worse, does not mean that I think Bush was anything other than an Awful president. You trying to state otherwise is just dumb.
Resident_UA
Member
I think people keep twisting my point. I do GET why she is criticized, I DON'T GET why she is hated. There's actually a huge difference in my mind. Apparently for most of you it's the same thing, so I don't even understand the point of arguing... I give up...
SolidSnakex
Member
http://www.salon.com/2016/11/09/the...ed-donald-trump-with-its-pied-piper-strategy/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/16/magazine/hillary-clinton-campaign-final-weeks.html
*proceeds to run shitty campaign where she doesn't even go into a state that was critical to her path to victory*
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