Box of Kittens
Banned
Really all there is to say.
Hillary Clinton to CNN: "I will be the nominee"
- Thread starter Fracas
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Really all there is to say.
Hillary hasn't done much fundraising downticket yet, either. We're still in the primary so it's too early to say how either of these guys would have helped downticket. GE candidate Sanders would probably have done everything he could to help Democrats, I guess.
I'm not saying Bernie or bust. I'd have preferred Bernie but Hillary is the next-best option.
That's... "snakeoil horseshit"? LOL. This is why Hillary supporters here are so mockable. Those are all awesome things. They may not all be feasible today but these are great progressive principles that should be among our future goals.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Her proposal for letting people buy into Medicare would be the most significant step towards a single-payer system short of just switching to single-payer overnight.
It's funny because Hillary is painted as an incrementalist but if her proposed policies were enacted that would represent a serious change-up in many areas. But Bernie goes further so people just think Hillary is a corporate shill. Like
$15/hr = true progressive
$12/hr = Wall Street whore
FunkyMunkey
Banned
what's the point of voting for or supporting someone who can't or won't do anything they say they will?
is this semantics where you claim "supporting" something doesn't equate to attempted action?
it's snakeoil horseshit because he lacks the power to do almost any of it. anything he could do on that list would depend on support from GASP the democratic party, which he, vocally, is against
how much power do some of you think the president actually has? how many finger wags would it take to get support across the aisles?
excelsiorlef
Member
That Senate record that was 93% identical to Sanders when they were both in the Senate?
Super Tuesday was probably premature considering it was demographically very favorable towards her. I think the nail was probably Ohio, honestly.
ugaboga232
Member
Where is that proposal? I hadn't heard about it, just the state based public option. Still, a single payer system is in no way a silver bullet and there are a ton of arguably more important changes that need to be done regarding how we view healthcare philosophically. Like a commodity nowadays or more like a utility in most UHC nations regardless of how they go about it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
They are our future goals. Pretending that you can accomplish them now and running on a national platform of "we're going to get this done guys, just protest outside the governors offices and make them give you healthcare!" is absolutely snake oil sales.
Nearly every one of those is already part of the Democrat's platform. This is what is so infuriating about Sanders and his supporters, they advocate for changing the Democrat's goals without knowing what Democrats already stand for.
Box of Kittens
Banned
I can't speak for anybody else, but for me the snakeoil horseshit is that St. Bernie is the only politician who actually cares about those things and that if it weren't for everybody else being corrupt we'd get all those things with a snap of the fingers.
brainchild
Banned
He won't even become the nominee, so I think you're missing the point.
The point is that his message is good for the public conscience and with the votes he'll get by the convention, he'll be able to have some influence over the platform of the DNC, which is good in terms of the direction that the Democratic party should be headed in.
Aaron Strife
Banned
Came up recently
http://www.npr.org/2016/05/12/477836054/fact-checking-hillary-clintons-medicare-buy-in-proposal
Not the same as the public option, although I recall this being floated as a substitute for the public option in PPACA to win over liberals (neither were included lol *sob*)
But Bernie isn't likely to get the nom.
I wasn't clear, I don't care which is nominated. (D) = liberal SCOTUS nom, is what I mean.
Bernie and Hillary are going to end up being the same so dying on hill Bernie is pointless when one or more SCOTUS seats are up for grabs.
Pretty much.
boiled goose
good with gravy
It is raining (straw) men. Hallelujah!
The discussion was about his message...
Yup... simple.. yet whoosh.
I do think if our system was functioning a bit differently we would get a lot of those things (relatively) easily.
I do agree that with our current system a lot of those would indeed be very very difficult.
It is not about individuals being corrupt IMO, it is a systemic issue. The system works of legalized bribery and corruption.
Fenderputty
Banned
He want's to retake congress so much he's raised fuck all for down ticket dems.
ugaboga232
Member
Eh doesn't seem like a big change (most healthcare spending happens either in chronic cases, child birth, or end of life things which targeting 50 instead of 65 would not dramatically change the payment landscape though it would be nice) even though it sounds cool on paper. The healthcare system is much more fundamentally broken here (and in the rest of the world too but not as much and for different reasons) than just who pays for it.
This is basically what people call out bernie for in terms of vague, good sounding proposals and if anything his medicare for all plan goes into more detail (not saying its great or even good or well fleshed out, but this quip is basically nothing and even if it comes to fruition won't be much).
BlastProcessing
Member
For some people How matters more than What.
brainchild
Banned
This is patently false, considering that Bernie has his own legislation for how he plans to address these issues, which are most certainly not a part of the Democratic platform.
excelsiorlef
Member
No one is talking about that. He's fucked up his ability to be a messenger by also shouting fraud and conspiracy every chance he gets.
The message that's echoing now is Sanders is staying in despite having no path to victory, is attacking the Democratic party, and as of this week unable to properly condemn harassment or reign in his more extreme supporters.
Benrie lost. If him and Hillary disagree on an issue why should the loser decide which direction the party goes on that issue?
https://www.democrats.org/party-platform
What do you want changed or added?
brainchild
Banned
I'll put as much effort into my post as you did yours.
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
Those changes.
TheLostBigBoss
Banned
We already had a huge thread that talked about that article and the fact that DNC holds the funds and distributes them to where the likely battleground states will be in terms of switching seats or needing to keep a seat.
Snake-oil as in, "BAN FRACKING". Ok Bernie, tell me what you're going to do with the local economies that are heavily dependent on the current natural gas boom and how you're going to win over voters in lets say... Ohio which has done decent due to natural gas. Or how about all the coal mines that are going to have to be put back online due to you fucking banning fracking or when you decide to shut down all nuclear power plants which provide something like 18% of the US's energy needs.
Or how his campaign embraced a fucking insane report that his economic plan (healthcare, free college tuition) would bring about a constant 5% growth in GDP?
Or about how the vast majority of economists say that his plans would cost nearly double than what he is saying?
His entire platform is for the most part, bullshit or intellectually dishonest that panders more to the Green Party fairytales than actual reality.
On the majoirty of issues Clinton and Sanders are like 80%-90% the same, but Sanders constantly goes the extra distance to make his ideas for solving the issues they agree about pretty much DOA and nonviable.
Bel Marduk
Banned
but.. he did vote against DOMA. While Hillary Clinton was not in office at the time, her husband was the one to sign it into law.
He proclaimed "Gay Pride Day" in 1983 and signed an ordinance protecting LGBT people against discrimination in housing in Burlington, VT. This was in the 1980s when gay discrimination was much worse than it is today.
While it is nice that Hillary Clinton has eventually endorsed marriage equality, I am in a gay marriage and its one of the most important things in the world to me. I want someone who has been consistent on this.
Actually those goals are dependent on all three branches of government moving hard to the left.
Eh, that's the revolution Sanders talks about. It's not protesting outside of your governor's office. It depends on changing government at all levels. I think most of us understand that.
You keep going on how about you want Sanders to influence the party's platform and you can't even point out specific issues you have with the platform?
Can you name ONE issue that Sanders have brought up that is not addressed in the 2012 platform or talked about by Hillary? Can we start there, with one?
Aaron Strife
Banned
It's not like it's her only proposal though, and it'll probably be fleshed out throughout the campaign.
Whether it could actually make it through Congress is another matter.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Box of Kittens
Banned
Honestly, I used to think Bernie's message could be a positive in that I think there are issues where the Democrats should move left, both as a matter of good policy and because the politics are advantageous. The problem is that his message has become less about ideas and more about him. The idea that he's the only politician who cares about ordinary Americans and that the only reason we don't have these policies already is corruption (rather than genuine opposition and the difficulties of accomplishing big goals in the American system) turns the message into a net negative for me.
EatinOlives
Member
It's like people don't realize that if you spend considerable effort to paint your own party as corrupt and throw around unsubstantiated claims of compromised integrity, that maybe that muddies your own credibility and your ideas are less likely to be considered.
I believe the kids these days call it "reputation".
I believe the kids these days call it "reputation".
I'm asking for specific issues Brain, and you, have with the Democrat's platform and I can't get a single serious response.
Prove to me there are holes in the Democrat's platform.
Fenderputty
Banned
That's why you should vote 3rd party increasing Trumps chances at winning and making sure you lose that right!
His message is dead at this point. If he cared about his message he would've dropped out gracefully a month or two when his path to victory was over and included his message in campaigning for Clinton. Now his campaign is full of conspiratorial bullshit, downplaying harassment, etc. He's burned all his bridges. That will be the memory of his campaign after the convention. No revolution, no nothing; just a crazy Democrat Ron Paul that everybody will be laughing at by this time next year.
brainchild
Banned
If you live in an echo chamber I could see why you'd think that.
Thankfully, you can't speak for all Americans in terms of the kinds of conversations they have.
Because Bernie's share of Democratic support is not that much less than Hillary's share. It's not a zero-sum game. The party has to unite after the convention.
And I've already answered your question
https://berniesanders.com/issues/
whyamihere
Banned
Bernie also signed a traditional marriage proclamation when he was mayor Burlington and told the Vermont legislature not to pass gay marriage because it'd be "too divisive". She's put in the work as SoS on LGBT rights abroad. Her record has been stellar.
ugaboga232
Member
Her other proposals arent that good (though decently fleshed out, they are small things that can either pass or be enacted through congress and other than guaranteeing healthcare or something to undocumented workers that idk if she can even do, its really a whole big bunch of mediocre incremental changes as in I think she can do more even with obstructionism).
And saying it will probably be fleshed out is pretty charitable as right now its a buzz word filled sentence and nothing more that probably couldnt pass congress and even if it does pass and is fleshed out to make some sense, it would not bend the cost curve or even offer that much healthcare to those that don't have it.
The snakeoil salesmen come from thing like him talking about racial injustices while doing jack shit in his home state. In Vermont 1.2% of the population is black yet they are 10% of the prison population. Not only that but he largely ignored black activist in that state when they brought this important issue up to him.
Here's the article to back up my point, and here are some quotes.
I don't want to hear this bullshit from Sanders or his supporters about how he's going to fight for racial justice in the U.S. Sanders didn't give a fuck about black people in his home state because he didn't need their vote. It wasn't until it was politically advantagous for him that he suddenly was going to fight the racial injustices in the U.S. Then and only then he changed his stump speech to include more issues relating to minorities and black voters in particular. He was a senator in one of the whitest states in the U.S. so he never had to do any real work courting minority voters. When he decided to run for president he finally saw the light, and is going to fight for racial justice in the U.S. Give me a break. Guy is a snakeoil salesmen. He didn't do shit for black people in Vermont, and he won't do shit for them if he was elected.
Edit: The way he treated southern minority voters was also gross as fuck. Called them low information voters, and pulled out the dog whistle. Don't want to hear this bullshit about Sanders fighting for minorities.
I dunno about that; I think he may have tainted his ability to convince more people to believe in his message or at least believe in him, but Bernie Sanders has WAY more support than Ron Paul ever dreamed of having.
And Ron Paul's libertarian-light views have hardly gone away.
I think we are on the cusp of it being possible that both major political parties can be broken in 2; and I think there's something pretty awesome about that.
However the idea of Dems breaking in 2 and GOP staying unified frightens me enough to say for now I think Sanders should back off a bit.
Do you even know what strawman means? Anyway Bernie deserves nothing, just like Romney got nothing when he lost.
ugaboga232
Member
Pretty sure there was a huffpo post researching that piece showing a few of those organizations and people either don't exist or support sanders.
Bel Marduk
Banned
I'm not voting third party.
She brags about weapons contracts to Saudi Arabia -- a country where you can be publicly executed for being gay. She sure didn't put any pressure on them as secretary of state and likely wouldn't as president.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Changing it how though? It doesn't just require the dems retake the house because not all Dem congressmen even believe in everything Bernie proposes. You would need candidates who align with his beliefs running contested races not just in red states but in some blue ones. Is that happening? Has it even come up? People talk in abstract about how the revolution has to include congress, but has anyone actually looked specifically at which congresspeople need to be ousted, and figured out if there's anyone running who we can count on?
Are you serious? You can't name a single issue you have with the platform?
boiled goose
good with gravy
Issues I have personally with the platform or differences between Bernie's proposals and the Democratic Party's platform?
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