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Historians Rank Obama 12th Best President

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T

theignoramus

Member
ryutaro's mama said:
I love that this thread has people checking mofos trying to do drivebys with "he was a piece of shit".

Keep it up.
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Woodrow Wilson actually was a piece of shit. And I'm not judging him on the basis of some terrible views he held privately, his racial negligence got thousands of Americans killed, harmed or displaced. He owns all of that.


Also, what criteria are historians using if theyre lauding Reagan's international relations?
His policies in South America enabled some of the most immoral, destabilising actions in the history of that continent. Does that count for nothing when evaluating his foreign policy legacy?
 
C

collige

Banned
Bonen no Max'd said:
Huh? Reagan's policy was absolute dogshit but his ability to work with Tip O'Neill was pretty instrumental to him getting anything done over his presidency, he never had a Republican congress to work with.

Now, you might say "wow O'Neill sure was a dumbass for working with Reagan" which is probably true but much of the efforts to deregulate and destroy antitrust was a bipartisan action.
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The relations with Congress bit wasn't about Reagan specifically, just how dumb it is to have it as a category at all and how it inherently fucks Obama
 
T

theignoramus

Member
For those who claim we cant apply moral judgements to Presidents because they were products of intolerant eras: Woodrow Wilson re-segregated federal government agencies. Yes, re-segregated, as in he consciously reversed a progressive policy put in place decades before he was in office.

When he entered the White House a hundred years ago today, Washington was a rigidly segregated town — except for federal government agencies. They had been integrated during the post-war Reconstruction period, enabling African-Americans to obtain federal jobs and work side by side with whites in government agencies. Wilson promptly authorized members of his cabinet to reverse this long-standing policy of racial integration in the federal civil service.

Cabinet heads — such as his son-in-law, Secretary of the Treasury William McAdoo of Tennessee – re-segregated facilities such as restrooms and cafeterias in their buildings. In some federal offices, screens were set up to separate white and black workers. African-Americans found it difficult to secure high-level civil service positions, which some had held under previous Republican administrations.

A delegation of black professionals led by Monroe Trotter, a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of Harvard and Boston newspaper editor, appeared at the White House to protest the new policies. But Wilson treated them rudely and declared that “segregation is not a humiliation but a benefit, and ought to be so regarded by you gentlemen.”
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A

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
Piecake said:
If you look at the categories that C-Span asked historians to rate the presidents then the list starts to make more sense.

For example, there are 10 categories and 2 of them are persuasiveness and vision, both categories which Reagan should definitely rank highly in. Its not asking those historians to actually critique and analyze that vision; just if he put forward a strong vision and agenda for America
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This, and the fact that he seemingly accomplished his "vision" to dismantle the USSR. Whether or not he did it well is certainly up for debate, but he campaigned on a promise and largely kept it. He was effective in that regard.
 
K

kess

Member
Stability is an underrated trait by both historians and the public at large. Stability leads to a status-quo, which leads to a dreaded establishment.

Then you elect Trump.
 
A

ahoyhoy

Unconfirmed Member
plop said:
That's a skewed prism to view anyone through.

By most standards, George W. Bush was trash. But how do you think Trump would have responded to 9/11?
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If there was a 9/11 scale attack next week we'd be sooooo fucked. The WH bench is so Fucking weak right now youd probably hear sane reactions and suggestions from Mattis but not much else.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Azoor said:
I don't think the US will have a president as bad as Buchanan, he almost destroyed the country.
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I think, in fairness to Buchanan (and Pierce), the core problem of their administration was not of their own making. Neither handled the situation well at all, but the crisis over slavery had been building since 1789.

As far as Wilson goes, Wilson's handling of race relations was very poor, but his foreign and domestic accomplishments are otherwise enormous. But for the aforesaid race issue, it would be him, rather than FDR, who was thought of as the founder of the modern Democratic Party.
 
G

Gozan

Member
Angelus Errare said:
How the fuck is Reagan above Obama when one of the categories is "justice for all"? Unless the fine print for "justice for all" was "only applies to white people"
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"...And Justice for All" did come out during the Reagan administration, that gotta count for something
 
C

Caelus

Member
Even with Obama's legacy being dismantled by Trump, history will look more kindly on him as time passes. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets in the top 10 or even top 8.

And yeah, having Trump right after him is jarring as all hell. Trump can barely speak coherently.
 
A

Arthr2ShdsJcksn

Banned
All my friends were saying, yeah, Obama is good, but he's no James Polk.

Well all of them can eat a big fat dick now. I told you sons of bitches that Obama was baller. You were all like, Obama just had to clean up two minor wars, but Polk had to deal with the Mexican American war throughout his presidency. Well, that shit might be true, but even giving Polk bonus points for creating the department of the interior, his legacy will always be tarnished by not being strong enough against slavery. Hope my friends enjoy crow.
 
M

mr jones

Ethnicity is not a race!
AntraxSuicide said:
Nah, Teddy had his own shitty views on black people and whatnot. Literally all of our leaders did until probably Carter. Lincoln has his famous "I in no way support the equality of the white and black races" line.

We can (and should) judge them very harshly for these views, but if you're doing a ranking, you kind of have to grade on a curve because otherwise it just defeats the point. If I hold that racist views knock you down below the non-racists, then we're essentially just saying that only Carter, HW, Clinton, and Obama get to vie for the top 4 spots. Not really a good exercise.
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Yup, Literally 90% of the Presidents looked down on people like me, but look at all of the other great things they did!

And you have fuckers talking about white genocide. Its infuriating.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Arthr2ShdsJcksn said:
All my friends were saying, yeah, Obama is good, but he's no James Polk.

Well all of them can eat a big fat dick now. I told you sons of bitches that Obama was baller. You were all like, Obama just had to clean up two minor wars, but Polk had to deal with the Mexican American war throughout his presidency. Well, that shit might be true, but even giving Polk bonus points for creating the department of the interior, his legacy will always be tarnished by not being strong enough against slavery. Hope my friends enjoy crow.
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Had to deal with the Mexican American war is an odd way to word it when Polk deliberately instigated it to grab and annex Mexican land.
 
Square2015

Square2015

Member
The Albatross said:
Most of the social programs we have today were started by Lyndon Johnson. He was also a master of working congress, and one of the only Democrats in 50 years to not sacrifice congress for his social program. He passed an aggressively liberal social agenda without losing congress, something no Democrat has done since World War II. Further, he inherited (though made worse) Kennedy's Vietnam mess.

And while I'm a liberal, Reagan deserves credit. Most liberals are unwilling to recognize the state of the US in 1979 versus the state of the US in 1988, and most of that has to do with Ronald Reagan. I feel like the liberal antagonism against Reagan, today, is similar to the Republican antagoism against Obama. Liberals will hold onto a few inconsequential issues and completely miss the bigger picture, for the sole sake of lambasting their opponent.
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Thank you for this.
 
C

Cocaloch

Member
kess said:
Stability is an underrated trait by both historians and the public at large. Stability leads to a status-quo, which leads to a dreaded establishment.

Then you elect Trump.
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How tuned in are you to the field of history exactly? I'd say since around the 60's the field has been stressing continuity more than change, to its detriment no less.
 
H

higemaru

Member
Feels like Chester A Arthur should be higher. He's a lame duck but I remember reading that his policies were beneficial for the American workers at a critical period and I feel like what little he accomplished is still more important than GWB.
 
E

Ecotic

Member
Fixed2BeBroken said:
how is Nixon 28 and George W 33? the should be lower imo
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Well the list includes all Presidents, even ones that normally are not considered because they died too early like William Henry Harrison, James Garfield, and Zachary Taylor. So W. and Nixon would fall some if not for that.
 
T

theignoramus

Member
AntraxSuicide said:
Nah, Teddy had his own shitty views on black people and whatnot. Literally all of our leaders did until probably Carter. Lincoln has his famous "I in no way support the equality of the white and black races" line.

We can (and should) judge them very harshly for these views, but if you're doing a ranking, you kind of have to grade on a curve because otherwise it just defeats the point. If I hold that racist views knock you down below the non-racists, then we're essentially just saying that only Carter, HW, Clinton, and Obama get to vie for the top 4 spots. Not really a good exercise.
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Not sure why HW makes that list, the Willie Horton campaign ads played a significant role in his victory against Dukakis. And Clinton is suspect as hell himself, I dont care how many Black people he put in his administration, he made a point of using Black faces to demonstrate his toughness on crime and welfare spending.
 
G

Greatest Ever

Member
Toxi said:
Honestly, I think they were too unfair to Harrison. A month before kicking the bucket is a lot less harm than what many other Presidents did.
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Totally fair point, yeah.
Frozenprince said:
To be fair those 23 days were actually impactful, it led to the beginning of the end of the Whig party.

Harrison was unfortunately buries by infighting that followed his successor in Tyler, which lead to a whole lot of nothing productive being accomplished.
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I didn't know that, that's actually quite fascinating. I knew the party died because of infighting, but those 23 days being part of it was new to me.
 
V

Valhelm

contribute something
Permanently A said:
Under Ronald "we did not sell arms for hostages" Reagan, Lyndon "look at my dick" Johnson, and Woodrow fucking Wilson?

Seriously?
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Lyndon Johnson was an asshole, but more good for our country than all the subsequent presidents combined.

The Vietnam war was a giant misstep, but that doesn't negate his accomplishments at home.
 
P

Piecake

Member
Greatest Ever said:
Totally fair point, yeah.

I didn't know that, that's actually quite fascinating. I knew the party died because of infighting, but those 23 days being part of it was new to me.
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Tyler was a racist, slave-owning and sympathizing piece of shit who was a democrat in all but name.

You'd think the whigs (who would basically turn into the republicans) would have learned about nominating shitty VPs who widely disagree with your party, but apparently we all had to suffer for their stupidity since they nominated Andrew Johnson
 
G

Greatest Ever

Member
Piecake said:
Tyler was a racist, slave-owning and sympathizing piece of shit who was a democrat in all but name.

You'd think the whigs (who would basically turn into the republicans) would have learned about nominating shitty VPs who widely disagree with your party, but apparently we all had to suffer for their stupidity since they nominated Andrew Johnson
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The way the VP spot was so ridiculously, monumentally, and extraordinarily stupid in hindsight that no matter how many times I try to comb over details understanding the logistics of it, I fail to come away with a proper understanding that isn't just biased with what I think in the face of contemporary politics.

Hell I went through my entire schooling career getting plenty of info about Lincoln and his assassination but never heard once about how one of the worst Presidents ever followed because of how the VP position worked then. Jesus.

Sorry if that's a little tangent, it's that I love unearthing Presidential history in particular and as a teacher myself I find it ridiculous what curriculums teach and don't teach.
 
F

Frozenprince

Banned
Piecake said:
Tyler was a racist, slave-owning and sympathizing piece of shit who was a democrat in all but name.

You'd think the whigs (who would basically turn into the republicans) would have learned about nominating shitty VPs who widely disagree with your party, but apparently we all had to suffer for their stupidity since they nominated Andrew Johnson
Click to expand...

It was an effort to appease the Democrats in order to bite down on their stranglehold on the executive office. He and Henry Clay fought constantly because Clay wanted no cooperation at all but Harrison believed simply in nominating who he believed best suited for the job.

But ultimately choosing Tyler as his running mate would prove utterly disastrous, and the Whigs would never recover. Though it did ultimately lead to more qualified people being selected for the position that, until that point, was seen as almost entirely ceremonial. Johnson, for all his awfulness, was at the very least a cromulent politician.

Tyler was just a failure who was widely hated wherever he went. If not for Johnson and Buchanan, he's arguably the worst president in history for how utterly ineffectual he was.
 
N

Not

Banned
Reagan at 9 JFC

Maybe I'm just too far left but I have a feeling as soon as gay rights become a historically recognized thing he's going to drop a bit

And fucking Woodrow Wilson was as anti-women's equality as you can get

White men wrote this list
 
B

BobLoblaw

Banned
Reagan over Obama almost invalidates the list, but he'd be a liberal by today's standards, so there's that. Still, the Iran/Contra scandal vs the no scandal Obama still bothers the shit out of me.
 
M

Michael F. Assbender

Banned
Frozenprince said:
It was an effort to appease the Democrats in order to bite down on their stranglehold on the executive office. He and Henry Clay fought constantly because Clay wanted no cooperation at all but Harrison believed simply in nominating who he believed best suited for the job.

But ultimately choosing Tyler as his running mate would prove utterly disastrous, and the Whigs would never recover. Though it did ultimately lead to more qualified people being selected for the position that, until that point, was seen as almost entirely ceremonial. Johnson, for all his awfulness, was at the very least a cromulent politician.

Tyler was just a failure who was widely hated wherever he went. If not for Johnson and Buchanan, he's arguably the worst president in history for how utterly ineffectual he was.
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To be fair to Tyler, a lot of that hate comes about because his contemporaries never viewed him as the rightful President. They referred to him as "His Accidency" and his own cabinet (which was actually Harrison's cabinet) tried for a power play by telling him that they would handle all executive actions themselves before he shut them down.

The infighting that followed his rise to power overshadowed his few accomplishments, like settling parts of the US-Canadian border and starting toward the annexation of Texas (which, while controversial, was instrumental in shaping the US).

Edit: And yes, I'm aware he was a racist shitbag. It's pretty well settled that just about every president was around this time. And yes, I know he even won a spot in the Confederate House of Representatives (I think it was). I'm just saying it's not like he accomplished absolutely nothing.
 
S

Sean C

Member
Not said:
And fucking Woodrow Wilson was as anti-women's equality as you can get
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Er, no, not really. He was cagey about supporting the 19th Amendment for federalism reasons, but ultimately lobbied to pass it.

Even if he wasn't, that doesn't negate his huge domestic and foreign policy influence.
 
L

LionPride

Banned
Not said:
Reagan at 9 JFC

Maybe I'm just too far left but I have a feeling as soon as gay rights become a historically recognized thing he's going to drop a bit

And fucking Woodrow Wilson was as anti-women's equality as you can get

White men wrote this list
Click to expand...
Shit LGBT right, the fucked up shit he has done that led to the black community being fucked

Fuck Reagan
 
N

Not

Banned
LionPride said:
Shit LGBT right, the fucked up shit he has done that led to the black community being fucked

Fuck Reagan
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Right, not to mention the "war on drugs" and picking up where Nixon left off to target nonwhites

Yeah, he's overly revered

Sean C said:
Er, no, not really. He was cagey about supporting the 19th Amendment for federalism reasons, but ultimately lobbied to pass it.

Even if he wasn't, that doesn't negate his huge domestic and foreign policy influence.
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His hand was forced on the 19th. He never saw "their" side.

I dunno. I put more weight towards equality for all humans over matters of policy that only benefited white guys.
 
N

Not

Banned
That ranking of equality for all- mostly newbs and Dems. John Quincy Adams is as high as 9 'cause he fought against slavery in congress. Not a great track record among Presidents for most of our history.
 
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